Talk:Mains electricity by country/Archive 5

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120/240

Looks like the 120/240 question is back again. It seems to me that NEMA 6 outlets are not unusual in US and Canadian homes, especially for air-conditioners. NEMA 10 and 14 for clothes dryers and ranges. While not commonly used by travelers, this article is supposed to be more general than just for travelers. Note also that NEMA 6, 10, and 14 are not in Industrial_and_multiphase_power_plugs_and_sockets anymore, so a reference to that article doesn't help. (Though I suspect that NEMA 6, 10, and 14 are not so unusual in industrial, commercial, and academic environments.) Gah4 (talk) 03:22, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

As it says in the lede: "Mains electricity by country includes a list of countries and territories, with the plugs, voltages and frequencies they commonly use for providing electrical power to small appliances and some major appliances." Accordingly, the plugs shown are those that are used for predominantly small appliances and the voltages are those which are generally available throughout homes and offices etc. It has not been normal to show three phase voltages and plugs, even though there are many countries (some parts of Europe for example) where it is normal to connect a three phase service to homes, but generally this is made available to only those locations in the home adjacent to stoves and air conditioners for which it is used.

My wide experience of the US (none of Canada) is that 240V is generally available in a similar way, on a socket behind the stove, another behind the clothes dryer, and others for the aircon and furnace. All of these tend to be hidden, and I know of no generally portable appliances in North America which would be provided with 240V plugs. I also am unaware of any travel adaptors sold for use on the 240V supply in North America. Clearly none of this would be admissible in a WP article (very WP:OR) but it does inform this discussion.

It is not helpful to add references to 240V supplies in North America as we list none of the plugs which use them, and therefore it is also not helpful to mention split phase in the notes column, it would be like explaining that the supplies listed for most countries are actually one phase of a three phase supply (whether or not other phases are actually brought to the house), it certainly would not help with making the article shorter. Why should this be done for Canada alone? FF-UK (talk) 09:27, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"It is not helpful to add references to 240V supplies in North America as we list none of the plugs which use them"? What? I cannot make the leap in logic that makes you write something like "It is not helpful to add references" to Wikipedia. That's just... wow...

This article isn't about plugs, it's about "mains electricity". Or at least it ought to be about "mains electricity", because after all that's what the title of the damn thing is. Why would it be about plugs? We already have preposterously long articles about plugs. Why are you limiting the scope to "plugs commonly used for predominantly small appliances"? Why DON'T we explain what "mains electricity" is actually delivered to homes? I don't think it should be "done for Canada alone", I just happen to live there and know that my house, and my neighbours', and all my friends', and every single other Canadian I know has 120/240 split-phase in their home. And I even went to the trouble of citing the precise page of the national standard that says so.

I don't care whether there's an IEC plug "type" for North American 240 V appliances or not, or whether there are travel adapters for North American 240 V plugs or not (because after all, like I've said before and I'll keep reiterating because it isn't sinking in, Wikipedia is not a travel guide): facts are my "mains electricity" is 120/240. CplDHicks2 (talk) 00:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOTTRAVEL doesn't mean that the article can't be useful to travelers, but also travel should not be the defining reason for keeping or omitting something. Specifying voltages available for household use in the table doesn't make it all that much larger. (I don't think we need the whole comment, just 120/240.) And even a travel guide would also be useful to people making longer moves to another country, to know which appliances to bring along. At this point, the only discussion is one table column, not a long description. Gah4 (talk) 02:03, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk) This discussion dates back over 13 years, see: archived discussion and the words in the lede have been there since March 2005, I am just complying with the lede, as we do for every other country (including the US). I guess I worded something badly, it would have been better to say "It is not helpful to refer to 240V supplies in North America" which is what I meant, I was in no way intending to be critical of your citing the reference for voltage, which is exactly what we need more of in this article, thank you for that! FF-UK (talk) 08:47, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The fact that the logic of persisting to ignore reality in order to suit that table has been questioned for the past 13 years is perfectly emblematic of why the article ought to change. You say "I'm just complying with the lede": let's change it then. Just because it has been there for 13 years doesn't mean it's correct. CplDHicks2 (talk) 17:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, as far as I can see each time it has come up, and the reason has been explained, then that puts an end to it. There has not been any great objection before, so I guess it is a question of whether there is a consensus for what you suggest. I find the current definition of what the page is very sensible, it seems to provide the information most people are looking for. I think the alternative is to provide a total breakdown including the three phase supplies available to homes and offices, and that seems like too much. FF-UK (talk) 18:30, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Since this isn't Power seen by travelers, but closer to Power distributed to residences, it seems to me that we need to be true about it. On the other hand, what people most want to know is what comes out of more common outlets, so we need to emphasize that. It does seem that some countries have two different voltages commonly seen in residential use, most often those that are 127/220. In most, the higher voltage will be rarely seen, such as for air-conditioners, dryers, and ranges. One possibility would be separate columns for common outlet voltage, and residence distribution voltage. Gah4 (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

We are being "true about it" because the lede says: "Mains electricity by country includes a list of countries and territories, with the plugs, voltages and frequencies they commonly use for providing electrical power to small appliances and some major appliances." FF-UK (talk) 20:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

And some major appliances use the higher voltage. Is there some other place in wikipedia where a table of residential distribution voltages are given? As well as I know, 220/380, 230/400, and 240/415 are used in some countries, either two or three phases distributed to houses, but I don't know where to look that up. Industrial_and_multiphase_power_plugs_and_sockets gives some plugs around the world, but not much about voltage or where those voltages are found in industry, which often would be different from residential. Gah4 (talk) 20:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The fact that editors (including myself) keep adding this material is probably a good indication it belongs in the table, if only as a cross-reference to other articles. Readers must be missing it there even moreso; personally, I didn't even know my house had 240V power going to it until I researched the matter; having a pointer from this table would be incredibly enlightening. Gah4 is right, Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets doesn't have a "by country" section, and large appliances are using mains electricity just as much as small ones. If we're already adding notes for lower-capacity things like shaver sockets it makes no sense not to add notes for higher-capacity things like electric stoves. I'm changing the lede and adding notes for Canada and the U.S. -- Beland (talk) 06:40, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Beland (talk), you are the one who has been attempting to make this article smaller (greatly to its detriment), now you have reversed course and seem determined to make it bigger! If this is to be done, then clearly it cannot be just North America and Italy, but an effort needs to be made to complete the information for all countries, but that means finding the sources. We have no equivalent of IEC World plugs as our starting point, so we need alternatives.

One possibility is commercial documents like this one from Legrand: https://www.legrand.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf which provides information for a 7 major countries in the world. What this document also does is to provide information on some of the complexities when you start to look at how higher current appliances are connected. For instance, in UK homes we only use plugs and sockets up to 13A, and above that we hard wire appliances via suitable protective devices, also, 3 phase connection to a home is very rare. In France high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs, and 3 phase is rare. In Germany 3 phase is the norm, and high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs. And so it goes on. As well as describing the plugs used for high current it becomes necessary to detail the direct connection methods as well.

Why do you say "If we're already adding notes for lower-capacity things like shaver sockets it makes no sense not to add notes for higher-capacity things like electric stoves."? They have always been in the scope.

Do you really think that this article should be expanded this way? I am sure that whoever originally defined the scope had a very good understanding of why it was done that way! FF-UK (talk) 09:46, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The only reason this article was created is that mains electricity was getting too long. The current intro may have been written to explain the scope of what readers would encounter below, because that's what was available in the table at the time, not because it was supposed to constrain the info in the table. Whatever the motivation of previous editors, if the text isn't serving current readers well, it should be changed.

Shortening text that's repetitive or irrelevant and moving off-topic text to more appropriate articles is good, and that's what I've been doing. Lengthening to add useful detail is also good. Filling in a column in a table doesn't add significantly to the reading time for readers that are only looking up one or two countries, unlike prose which can create text that everyone has to wade through, if only to figure out if the section is worth reading at all. The more prose before the table, the more likely readers are to never make it to the table at all. If adding this information to the table does make it feel too bloated, we can split it up or offload some content into other articles. Generally Wikipedia articles do simply grow until they are large enough to split.

When I tried to add info about the system used for electric stoves in the U.S. (240V split-phase power), you removed it and said that this article doesn't cover split-phase power. So according to you, not all large domestic appliances have always been in scope.

Yes, lots of information needs to be added to fill in the large-appliance practices for lots of countries! Very interesting to learn about hard-wiring there in Europe. In the U.S. it seems hard-wiring happens sometimes, but I'm not sure to what degree building codes determine the pattern. I'd expect overhead lighting to be hard-wired most of the time, but the light+fan combo in my bathroom uses a plug and socket. AC-powered smoke detectors seem to always to be hard-wired, maybe so that people can't unplug them, and central thermostats and HVAC systems seem to be hard-wired. Anything that might be moved from time to time would get a plug (like a floor lamp) but anything that is going to permanently stay put, from a low-current LED light to a dishwasher or stove to a high-current electric car charging station, could use a plug or be hard-wired. Anyway, it'll be fun to find out more! -- Beland (talk) 17:10, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I have a plug-in smoke detector, but it is somewhat old. Most that you buy as "smoke" detectors are actually ionization (flame) detectors. For actual smoke, the usual way is with a light bulb and photodetector, and so not battery powered. As for fans, ones I know have the plug inside the fixture, so you can remove the fan, such as for oiling or otherwise. Gah4 (talk) 23:50, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't especially like the current form of the table. For one, it seems too wordy. We could move the "Residential Voltage" column to the left, and call it "Voltage for small electrics" (to match the plug columns). Then a new "Residential Voltage" column giving the actual service voltages, 120/240 for US and Canada. My belief is the Europe uses 220/380, 230/400, or 240/418, either three phase, or two phases from a three phase distribution, but I presume someone who actually knows can fill in those, including two or three phases per house. Then a small table at the end, giving the detailed meaning of the different numbers. As long as there aren't too many special exceptions, I think it should work. Gah4 (talk) 00:35, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@Gah4: I'm open to whatever you think looks best. -- Beland (talk) 19:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

From IEC 60038, it looks like the European Union should be 230/400 +/-10%. Some less well developed countries might not be standardized enough to make a completely reliable table entry. For larger cities, though, it should be close enough. Gah4 (talk) 08:14, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Beland (talk), you are claiming above that "The only reason this article was created is that mains electricity was getting too long." The truth is that it was created from AC power plugs and sockets. Do TRY to be accurate! FF-UK (talk) 12:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, editing too many articles at once. 8) -- Beland (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@FF-UK:, you wrote above: "If [adding actual residential distribution voltages] is to be done, then clearly it cannot be just North America and Italy, but an effort needs to be made to complete the information for all countries, but that means finding the sources." It doesn't have to happen all at once; this is not an all-or-nothing endeavour (nothing on Wikipedia is).

You also rhetorically ask, "Do you really think that this article should be expanded this way? I am sure that whoever originally defined the scope had a very good understanding of why it was done that way!" In point of fact the table had contained notes about the typical 120/240 V split-phase supply in North America, going back to 2006. Those notes stayed substantially the same for about eight years, until User:SSHamilton deleted it in a mass restructure to "use IEC World Plugs as the primary source" in 2014. SSHamilton was banned for having been a sockpuppet of one user who also went by User:Mautby, User:Deucharman, User:ElectricTattiebogle and User:JohnJuliusFeinstein . The JohnJuliusFeinstein sockpuppet deleted references to three-phase supplies throughout the table in 2013. It was in fact the concerted effort of one deceitful editor to perniciously make the article's scope suit their purposes... CplDHicks2 (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk), Please accept my apologies for taking so long to respond to this.

The first edit to the article from which this one was created on July 2nd 2004 was to add the words The original content for this article came from http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm. As we know, that is a self-published blog, not a WP:RS.

On July 28th 2004 this article was split off, and at that point there was no reference to the origin of the information, and no references for any of the data.

On 28th February 2005 the following words were added: Please note that the letter system (which we belive originated from a us government document) whilst usefull for quick reference is a bit ambiguous (sic). There were still no references.

On 12th March 2005 the scope was added using the words: for providing electrical power to small appliances and some major appliance. There were still no references.

Over the subsequent years there was a continuous battle with editors who (mainly based on WP:OR) were continually trying to change the data. Foremost amongst those trying to control this was Wtshymanski (talk), but despite his efforts, very few references were cited.

Wtshymanski was also in the lead when it came to removing notes regarding three-phase supplies as they clearly did not fit within the scope, here are a few of his reverts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mains_electricity_by_country&diff=prev&oldid=279369410

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mains_electricity_by_country&diff=prev&oldid=400122228

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mains_electricity_by_country&diff=prev&oldid=400425523

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mains_electricity_by_country&diff=next&oldid=400425523

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mains_electricity_by_country&diff=prev&oldid=422312877

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mains_electricity_by_country&diff=prev&oldid=441345279

A slightly puzzling fact is that, as far as I can tell, Wtshymanski did not remove any references to split phase supplies in the US and Canada. Why would this be? The usage is similar (high power appliances such as cookers and air conditioning. There is the same lack of listing here of any plugs which can be used with these supplies, and both are clearly outside the scope which was established for the article early on. So what is it that makes North America different from anywhere else in the world? Why should these supplies be listed for North America, and nowhere else?

As far as I can see, despite the fact that IEC World Plugs underlies virtually all of the information in this article, the first acknowledgement of this does not come until Wtshymanski's edit on 30th January 2013 when he added the words The lettering system used here is from an IEC Web page using the edit comment (map is closer to the IEC Web site than to the US DoC "Electricity Abroad" since it has Type M and doesn't repeat EA's wrong UK sockets.)

The continued edit wars culminated in the removal of all unreferenced information on the 1st January 2014, this left only eight countries in the list! Sshamilton's restructuring (which began on the following day) saved the situation by making IEC World Plugs the prime source, and her efforts were generally well received. This is a far cry from CplDHicks2 misrepresentation of the facts.

I suppose that I ought to mention that I know Sshamilton, not well, but well enough to respect her as a highly competent engineer who works to impeccable standards. Having lost contact with her for about 15 years I was delighted to have been able to renew contact via these talk pages! I also know (slightly) the engineer who used to use the name Deucharman, but have had no contact with him since the 1990s. I can assure you that they are very different people, and anyone who knows them even a little would laugh for a very long time indeed at the idea they were one and the same. I have no idea what went wrong for them to be banned from WP, only that someone in the WP system made a bad mistake. The loss of those two experts was a sad one. I have no idea about those other names, except that I was under the impression that they were all Americans. FF-UK (talk) 21:59, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

It is hard to know the motivation behind each editor. In the US, three phase is not commonly distributed to houses, often not even close. (It is often available in residence halls, such as dormitories and some apartment buildings.) For that reason, some might believe that it doesn't belong here. I believe that somewhere in wikipedia, the voltages distributed to houses should be listed. We don't need to say a lot about it, but a column listing 120/240 or 230/400, and maybe some others, doesn't seem so bad. We should still have a column indicating the usual voltage found for outlets in houses. As I noted above, we could have Power distributed to residences, but I suspect that isn't really needed. I suppose Power distributed to industry could also be interesting, with 120/208 and 277/480 common in the US, I am not sure about other countries. (US industrial lighting is commonly 277V, more convenient for running discharge lamps, including fluorescent and HID lamps.) Would someone who knows more about European power comment on that? Gah4 (talk) 02:14, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

FF-UK asks, "A slightly puzzling fact is that, as far as I can tell, Wtshymanski did not remove any references to split phase supplies in the US and Canada. Why would this be?" BECAUSE "MAINS ELECTRICITY" IN THE US AND CANADA IS 120/240 SINGLE-PHASE. *rolleyes*

I can't help but laugh out loud at the coming to the defence of known fink Deucharman/SSHamilton(/Mautby/JohnJuliusFinkelstein/ElectricTattiebogle), with whom apparently FF-UK is well-acquainted. Quelle surprise; walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck... CplDHicks2 (talk) 02:53, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Be that as it may...

With this edit FF-UK (talk · contribs) wrote: As it says in the lede: "Mains electricity by country includes a list of countries and territories, with the plugs, voltages and frequencies they commonly use for providing electrical power to small appliances and some major appliances." Accordingly, the plugs shown are those that are used for predominantly small appliances and the voltages are those which are generally available throughout homes and offices etc.

And also at [1], FF-UK wrote: the words in the lede have been there since March 2005, I am just complying with the lede

This suggests an inverted way of writing articles. You don't write the lede according to what you think the article should be and then require the article body to fit it forever afterward. You write the article body and then summarize it in the lede. It is natural for the scope of the body to expand as additional relevant aspects of the topic are added. The lede should be changed accordingly, not used to swat away contributions. The lede is not supposed to be a straitjacket.

The fact is that 240V split phase is distributed to residences in the US and Canada, and 208V (two phases out of three) to larger apartment buildings and similar (at least in the US), and this fact undeniably falls under the heading of "Mains electricity by country".

Or do we argue that what an electric oven, dryer, or large air conditioner is connected to is not "mains power"? Ridiculous!

I know that 230 / 400 (or so... no doubt somebody will try to tell me that my entire point here, nay, every opinion I've ever expressed on Wikipedia, is invalid if I get this detail wrong by as much as a tenth of a volt) is distributed to residences in some places in Europe, too. Heck, one person I know in France had all three phases coming into their house (very large "executive" home near Geneva).

In short, I do not think the comparative rarity of outlets for this stuff should preclude them, their voltage, or their wiring arrangements from being mentioned here. We should describe the split-phase distribution system too. That's part of "Mains electricity" as well. Jeh (talk) 04:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, but none of this explains why there is a history of adding split phase to this article, but removing any mention of three-phase! While it would be quite unusual for normal houses in UK to have a three-phase service, it is very common for houses in Northern and Central Europe, not so common in France, and relatively rare in Southern Europe. It strikes me as very sad that CplDHicks2 (talk) repeats his defence of the North American entries, and completely ignores the fact that in many countries mains electricity is three phase. How inward looking can you get?

It is worth remembering that the US Government document "Electric Current Abroad" states that it's purpose is "To assist U.S. manufacturers, exporters and individuals living or traveling abroad, this publication lists the characteristics of electric current available and the type of attachment plugs used in most countries." IEC World plugs says: "The information given in these pages is aimed at informing travellers of the types of plugs and sockets they may come across in a specific country." On WP we prefer to pretend that this is not a page for travellers.

It makes a lot more sense to develop a separate article to deal with the varieties of split phase and/or three phase supplies available to residences and commercial premises than to attempt to shoehorn it in to this article, which has the disadvantage of overcomplicating it by adding information which is both confusing and uninteresting to the majority of readers. FF-UK (talk) 13:19, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Addressing the last point first: I again think of the general reader. The general reader wouldn't know to look in a separate article to learn about what turns out to be that NEMA 14-30 outlet behind the dryer. The lede says that this article describes the plugs, voltages and frequencies they commonly use for providing electrical power to appliances, equipment, and lighting typically found in homes and offices. Well, in the US, NEMA 14-30 and 14-50 outlets are "commonly used" in practically all new construction of single-family dwellings and often in larger multiunit buildings too. In any one dwelling they are of course nowhere near as common as 5-15 sockets, but one or two in every home does count as "commonly used". The general reader would probably find the subsequent text For industrial machinery, see Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets, but since an electric stove or gas dryer is not what most would call "industrial machinery" and their house is not a factory, they would reasonably conclude that that's not the place to look for that odd socket.

The lede does admit the existence of such supplies: Some countries have different voltage levels for small vs. large appliances, and sometimes different plugs are mandated for different voltage or current levels. But for some reason this article has minimal information on them. That makes no sense to me.

Neither does the notion of a separate article. I believe my previous two grafs make clear why they should all be in one article.

FF-UK writes: none of this explains why there is a history of adding split phase to this article, but removing any mention of three-phase! I don't know why anyone should be required to explain any such thing in order for their opinions to receive consideration. Past editing behavior is the past and there is no need to achieve consensus with our impressions of the motivations of editors who are no longer active here.

Whether or not this is a "page for travelers" is beside the point. This page is about "Mains electricity by country", specifically mains electricity as supplied to homes and small offices. That the page was originally based heavily on information that was prepared for travelers is irrelevant here, as is the point that travelers should indeed find this page useful. That does not mean we should restrict the contents to information useful to travelers. Jeh (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Recently NEMA-10 and NEMA-14 were removed from Industrial_and_multiphase_power_plugs_and_sockets, as someone thought that they weren't used enough there. Interestingly, there are companies that make industrial quality versions of them. I do think we need to consider a little about how big this article could become, but also, yes, that 120/240, 230/400, and whatever else exists out there needs to go somewhere. For now, I think this is the best place. Gah4 (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Many of use know about 120/240 and NEMA-10 and 14. Could someone, for now in this talk page, describe what is usual in Europe for electric dryers, stoves, and ovens, and other high power home appliances? Gah4 (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Before expansion this article had entries for around 225 countries. That requires references for at least 225 plug types used (possibly more if the reference does not cover all plug types used in a country), and at least 225 voltages (more if the voltage reference does not cover frequency as well). So that would be in excess of 450 references. After 14 years we have actually managed to accumulate just 34 plug and voltage references, we do not even have any references for the US! Good luck with getting the references for the remaining 400+ facts presented here, in addition to all the new facts it is proposed to add!

Gah4 (talk), did you not see the descriptions of what pertains in Europe regarding three phase and connection methods for large appliances which I have already noted in this talk section? There is certainly no single European model!

Jeh (talk), you wrote:"You don't write the lede according to what you think the article should be and then require the article body to fit it forever afterward." But, isn't that exactly what Beland did two weeks ago when he re-wrote the lede to suit his vision of what the article should be? FF-UK (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Is it? I wasn't paying close attention then. I don't think he should have done that - if indeed that's an accurate description. But I continue to wonder why you ask me about what other editors have done. Why don't you ask them? In any case I find it hugely disingenuous when you object to adding material because it "doesn't fit the lede", then you object to someone trying to change the lede first. Jeh (talk) 20:25, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

This seems to have a picture of a three-phase plug for European ranges. No, I did not see any above describing the plugs and such for European three phase. Gah4 (talk) 04:36, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Jeh (talk), you are the one quoting from Belands new version of the lede written two weeks ago! As I wrote at the beginning of this section (before the lede was changed): As it says in the lede: "Mains electricity by country includes a list of countries and territories, with the plugs, voltages and frequencies they commonly use for providing electrical power to small appliances and some major appliances." That had been essentially the same since March 2005. By the time you made any contribution to this section the lede had been changed, and you quoted from that changed lede above: The lede says that this article describes the plugs, voltages and frequencies they commonly use for providing electrical power to appliances, equipment, and lighting typically found in homes and offices.

As I have made very clear in other contributions, I take extreme exception to having my words misrepresented. You wrote that In any case I find it hugely disingenuous when you object to adding material because it "doesn't fit the lede", then you object to someone trying to change the lede first. What objection? I made an observation that Beland had done that, and brought it your attention! You also wrote that FF-UK writes: none of this explains why there is a history of adding split phase to this article, but removing any mention of three-phase! I don't know why anyone should be required to explain any such thing in order for their opinions to receive consideration. Past editing behavior is the past and there is no need to achieve consensus with our impressions of the motivations of editors who are no longer active here. Well, firstly, that was a general comment, not addressed to anyone in particular, secondly it clearly refers back to the points I put to CplDHicks2, on which you were commenting, thirdly it refers mainly to the actions of CplDHicks2 and Wtshymanski, both of whom ARE currently active here! You must know that I greatly respect your expertise and wisdom, and am trying hard to work with you in a cooperative manner, but it does not help when you cannot take sufficient care to avoid making false accusations!

Gah4 (talk), if it helps, I will repeat the relevant contributions here:

It has not been normal to show three phase voltages and plugs, even though there are many countries (some parts of Europe for example) where it is normal to connect a three phase service to homes, but generally this is made available to only those locations in the home adjacent to stoves and air conditioners for which it is used.

If this is to be done, then clearly it cannot be just North America and Italy, but an effort needs to be made to complete the information for all countries, but that means finding the sources. We have no equivalent of IEC World plugs as our starting point, so we need alternatives. :One possibility is commercial documents like this one from Legrand: https://www.legrand.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf which provides information for a 7 major countries in the world. What this document also does is to provide information on some of the complexities when you start to look at how higher current appliances are connected. For instance, in UK homes we only use plugs and sockets up to 13A, and above that we hard wire appliances via suitable protective devices, also, 3 phase connection to a home is very rare. In France high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs, and 3 phase is rare. In Germany 3 phase is the norm, and high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs. And so it goes on. As well as describing the plugs used for high current it becomes necessary to detail the direct connection methods as well.

I will again emphasize that there is no single European solution, contrary to a popular misconception, there is no EU regulation on domestic plugs and sockets. Each country in Europe (whether an EU country, or non-EU country) sets its own standards. The connector you illustrate is the Perilex which has been popular in some Northern European countries, but is being phase out in favour of connectors from the IEC 60309 series. Other three phase connectors which might be found in European homes are illustrated in Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets. I hope that helps. FF-UK (talk) 10:29, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

FF-UK writes: OK, but none of this explains why there is a history of adding split phase to this article, but removing any mention of three-phase! While it would be quite unusual for normal houses in UK to have a three-phase service, it is very common for houses in Northern and Central Europe, not so common in France, and relatively rare in Southern Europe. It strikes me as very sad that CplDHicks2 repeats his defence of the North American entries, and completely ignores the fact that in many countries mains electricity is three phase. How inward looking can you get?

Go ahead and add the three-phase voltages. It'll make the article better. I'm not going to do it for you though, I don't care whether they're mentioned or not and it's not my problem. Go find references. Either way facts are homes in my country are fed with 120/240 supplies. I provided a reference to the national standard that says so. The 240 V clothes dryer humming away I can hear humming away in my laundry room says so. I'm tired of your moving the goalposts, throwing around accusations of "misrepresenting" your comments, and snide remarks like "inward-looking". Stop it, now. CplDHicks2 (talk) 00:07, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk), does your hypocrisy know no bounds? The only edit you have ever made to this page which was unconnected to your own country was when you chose to take issue with one of my edits, accusing me of making a "sloppy edit". What is that if not "inward looking"? (By comparison, Wtshymanski (talk), with whom I do not agree on everything, has made numerous helpful edits to this article and contributed greatly in reverting the ignorant edits with no references, and numerous attempts to add three-phase information.)

You accuse me of being "snide" (derogatory or mocking in an indirect way) by using "inward looking", but it is a fact, unlike your attack on me: "walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...". I wrote above "I know Sshamilton, not well, but well enough to respect her as a highly competent engineer who works to impeccable standards. Having lost contact with her for about 15 years I was delighted to have been able to renew contact via these talk pages! I also know (slightly) the engineer who used to use the name Deucharman, but have had no contact with him since the 1990s." and "I have no idea about those other names, except that I was under the impression that they were all Americans." You misrepresented that by writing back "I can't help but laugh out loud at the coming to the defence of known fink Deucharman/SSHamilton(/Mautby/JohnJuliusFinkelstein/ElectricTattiebogle), with whom apparently FF-UK is well-acquainted." That is clearly a gross misrepresentation which is totally unforgiveable. FF-UK (talk) 11:31, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

*rolleyes* CplDHicks2 (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk) A truly despicable, but sadly predictable response from an editor who refuses to acknowledge that he is wrong. Shame on you! FF-UK (talk) 17:45, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Let us know how you really feel, @FF-UK:. Keep it coming. Let it all out. CplDHicks2 (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

The reason this article doesn't have info about higher-demand appliances in most countries is that we only recently got consensus that this should be in scope, and editors haven't yet added that info. It would help if people spent more time doing research and less time bickering about who did what when. All contributions should be welcome, whether they are small or large. -- Beland (talk) 19:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

And FTR, I don't have a rigid view of what should control article scope. The title, lede, and article contents should all align to the same scope, but none of them are the final word on it because all of them can be changed if a consensus of editors determines that would be helpful for readers. I generally make an is-ought distinction between the way those things currently are, and the way they ought to be. That is to say, just because one of those elements is currently a certain way does not intrinsically mean that's the way it ought to be, though in the long term I generally hope that things converge to the way they ought to be. -- Beland (talk) 19:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Beland (talk) it is not clear why you have chosen to make the above remarks when the issue of the scope was settled three weeks ago. (FTR, I did not like the outcome, but have accepted it, as should be clear from the talk section immediately below.) The problem is that your redefined scope, and the column headings associated with it, were very badly written. That is what I have been trying to fix! Sadly, nothing is easy when CplDHicks2 remains determined to misinterpret anything I write. FF-UK (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I happened to notice that my name was being used above and my motives misrepresented. I'm open to and thankful for corrections and modifications that help readers, but telling other editors that their prose is very badly written is not friendly, and will just make people upset and possibly result in the article being locked again. I shared my philosophy on what determines article scope in the hopes that we can avoid getting stuck in future editing because someone is making an argument that a certain thing rigidly determines the scope in an unchangeable way. -- Beland (talk) 21:26, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

"Small electrics" or "small appliances"?

Both are grossly inaccurate!

Until a couple of weeks ago the scope of this article referred to "small appliances and some major appliances", this was then changed to "appliances, equipment, and lighting typically found in homes and offices". The columns for plugs were also changed by adding the modifier "for small electrics". "Small electrics" has now been changed to "small appliances", this is far less ugly, but equally wrong. Check out the linked description of "small appliances". Who would describe this 165lb washer as a small appliance? Or this 600lb refrigerator? Both of these major appliances are supplied with a type NEMA 5-15 plug fitted, as are many other major appliances in North America.

In fact, there are only two plugs in that list which are restricted to small appliances, the Type C, 2.5 A Europlug, and the British 200 mA shaver plug, all the rest have much higher ratings. The Type B, power rating at 1,800 W is the lowest power general purpose plug (with the exception of the Type D) on the list. The British Type G, the only plug used in British homes (apart from the shaver plug) is rated at 3,000 W, and the Type E and Type F, the most common plugs in Europe, are rated at 3,700W.

Quite clearly the "small electrics" and "small appliances" descriptions are hopelessly wrong. I do not have any immediate suggestions for a better description, but it cannot stay the way it is. FF-UK (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Well it can't go back to the way it was before either, because that was even more hopelessly wrong. I changed 'electrics' to 'appliances' for the simple reason "small electrics" is gibberish to me, and not how the noun 'electric' is used. The distinction must be made that we're not actually speaking about mains electricity as a whole in some countries, but mains electricity as is limited to the application of particular plug 'types' as defined by the IEC. (Which I still think is the entirely wrong thing to do in an article called "Mains electricity by country".) Perhaps we can rename the headings "IEC Plug 'Type'", "National Plug Standard", and "Voltage for IEC Plug 'Type'". Come up with a suggestion and it can be considered, dear FF-UK. CplDHicks2 (talk) 00:13, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I would look at it the other way around: which plugs are used on small appliances, not which appliances are used on these plugs. Though also the size of an appliance isn't really a good indicator of its power needs, or energy needs. A small toaster or hair dryer can easily get to 1800W. Refrigerators about 100W or so for the compressor, maybe more for the defrosting heater, but still a lot less than a toaster. The refrigerator will be running much of the day, the toaster or hair dryer, much less often. But people do tend to have more small appliances, and so more often need to know where they can be used. Gah4 (talk) 00:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

It does seem that electrics is used more than I might have thought. nostalgia electrics For example, as a name of a department in a store: kitchen electrics, garden electrics, etc. But appliances is fine with me. Gah4 (talk) 00:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I can see why you'd interpret it the way you do, Gah. I also don't disagree with FF-UK, that it is confusing for the reasons he stated. That said the term "small electrics" really is gibberish; look the noun "electric" up in any reputable dictionary, it's not a synonym for "appliance". ("Nostalgia Electrics" is a brand name, FYI.) CplDHicks2 (talk) 01:59, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I suspect that I don't think they should be called electrics either, but then people don't always agree with my reasons. Stores have a Men's department that doesn't sell men. kitchen small electrical appliances similarly might be too long for the name of a store department. (I believe that refrigerators have their own department in stores that sell them.) I never liked application as short for application program, and similarly not app as short for application. I am not sure what the WP:COMMONNAME is. Gah4 (talk) 05:39, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The term "small electrics" really is gibberish I could not agree more! The more I think about this, the more I cannot see any good reason for using any sort of modifier. There is no description which would apply to all of the appliances which might be fitted with any particular plug. The important thing is to ensure that the plug type, applicable standard, and the voltage, are all aligned. As the consensus has determined that the list should include multiphase voltages and plugs, then the same columns should be used with the type left blank. Let`s just go back to the simple headings "Plug type", "National plug standard", "Residential voltage", and "Comments". FF-UK (talk) 12:43, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

If you are suggesting the actual residential voltages be included in the table rather than only those voltages which happen to correspond with an IEC plug 'type', I would be in support of that. I do however think that clarification of the plug types in the table is still required, and something along the lines of IEC plug type is appropriate. That makes it clear to the reader that the plugs in the table are just those that happen to have an IEC letter 'type' assigned to them, that the table does not encompass all plugs used with "mains electricity". That way if, say the Netherlands' row includes 400 V three-phase (I don't know if that's actually distributed to homes there, just using it as an example) and the corresponding "plug type" is blank, it's because there is no IEC letter code associated with plugs at that voltage, not because plugs do not exist for it. CplDHicks2 (talk) 15:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

It would be nice to see what some other countries do. Is the three-phase plug I linked to above used in many countries in Europe for electric dryers, stoves and ovens? What plugs are used for high current appliances in Asian and African countries? Gah4 (talk) 15:14, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we can still keep a distinction between the most common outlets people will find, and the less common ones. For one, travelers will want to know that. But the distribution voltage into residences should be covered somewhere, and for now this seems the best place. Gah4 (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

What about (for Canada and US) having a line or lines for "NEMA 14-30P" and "NEMA 14-50P" under "Plug type"? FF-UK (talk) 11:17, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I think plugs are—or should be—beside the point of the article. We already have some very, very large articles about plugs. NEMA 14-30R and 14-50R are the only 240 V receptacles required in homes (in Canada), but there's nothing prohibiting other types from being installed; type 6 or 10 plugs for instance aren't uncommon in applications like EVSE, air conditioning units, and power tools. I would think a wikilink in the "National Plug Standard" column to the relevant article would better inform the reader of what plugs are used where. For the sake of keeping the "Plug Type" column from becoming overly confusing it's probably best not to muddle the IEC letter codes with others. I really do think just the small qualifier to make clear that the column lists "IEC Plug Types" ought to suffice. Or maybe something like "commonly-used plug types". Comments in the last column ought to clarify what we mean. I would envision the row for Canada looking something like this:

Country or territory	Commonly-used plug types	National plug standard	Service voltage	Utility frequency	Comments
Canada	A, B	CSA C22.2 No. 42	120/240, 1Φ 120Y208, 3Φ 347Y600, 3Φ	60 Hz	Homes are typically provided with 120/240 V split-phase power or two phases from a 208 V three-phase transformer; most receptacles are NEMA 5-15R, on 120 V circuits, while NEMA 14-30R and 14-50R receptacles are provided on 240 or 208 V circuits for clothes dryers and electric stoves. Larger residential, commercial and industrial buildings are provided with 600 V three-phase power.

Maybe we trim some of the fat from that and make it explicitly for residences (and put the heading for voltage back to "Residential voltage"), deleting the bits about 600 V for bigger buildings. I'm open to suggestions. CplDHicks2 (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Re "plugs are—or should be—beside the point of the article", I think we should remember that this article was originally the list headed "This is a list of countries and territories, with the plugs, voltages and frequencies they use." in the article AC power plugs and sockets, see diff. This was a redirect to the origin of this article Plugs have always been a major part of this article, and probably the main interest of most people viewing it. There is nowhere else on WP that you will find complete information on what is used in all countries. FF-UK (talk) 09:21, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

There was no further comment after my last point, I waited 12 days and took that to indicate that there was no further disagreement, hence made the change which CplDHicks2 (talk) has now reverted. Are we arguing about the words "Commonly used" before "plug type"? FF-UK (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I made a example table and the very last thing I said with respect to the headings was "I'm open to suggestions"; you made none. 12 days of silence on your part indicated no further disagreement that the heading titles be left alone. CplDHicks2 (talk) 19:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I think there is no perfect answer here. I believe we should indicate both the voltage most often seen in outlets, and also the distribution voltage, to residential areas. Refrigerators are large appliances, but don't use all that much power. What term reasonably applies to the more common outlets in residential (and usually industrial) environments? Gah4 (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk) I answered the leading point of your comment, "plugs are—or should be—beside the point of the article" and you remained silent. Otherwise, the only difference appears to be the words "Commonly used". So what are we arguing about? FF-UK (talk) 19:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

You ignored everything after that leading point. Here, I'll repeat it all for your benefit:

"NEMA 14-30R and 14-50R are the only 240 V receptacles required in homes (in Canada), but there's nothing prohibiting other types from being installed; type 6 or 10 plugs for instance aren't uncommon in applications like EVSE, air conditioning units, and power tools. I would think a wikilink in the "National Plug Standard" column to the relevant article would better inform the reader of what plugs are used where. For the sake of keeping the "Plug Type" column from becoming overly confusing it's probably best not to muddle the IEC letter codes with others. I really do think just the small qualifier to make clear that the column lists "IEC Plug Types" ought to suffice. Or maybe something like "commonly-used plug types". Comments in the last column ought to clarify what we mean. I would envision the row for Canada looking something like this:

Country or territory	Commonly-used plug types	National plug standard	Service voltage	Utility frequency	Comments
Canada	A, B	CSA C22.2 No. 42	120/240, 1Φ 120Y208, 3Φ 347Y600, 3Φ	60 Hz	Homes are typically provided with 120/240 V split-phase power or two phases from a 208 V three-phase transformer; most receptacles are NEMA 5-15R, on 120 V circuits, while NEMA 14-30R and 14-50R receptacles are provided on 240 or 208 V circuits for clothes dryers and electric stoves. Larger residential, commercial and industrial buildings are provided with 600 V three-phase power.

Maybe we trim some of the fat from that and make it explicitly for residences (and put the heading for voltage back to "Residential voltage"), deleting the bits about 600 V for bigger buildings. I'm open to suggestions." CplDHicks2 (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk) Let me remind you that this talk section is about the column headings, it is NOT about Canada! My change to the article did not involve Canada. On the basis that you are now refusing to discuss the headings issue, and that there was no material difference between what you have agreed and the changes I have made, I am reinstating those changes. FF-UK (talk) 08:00, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not the one refusing to discuss the headings issue, you are. Once again you're ignoring the thrust of my comments. Yes, this is about the column headings. It's also about the content of each cell under those headings. I made an example table with revised headings, and happened to include Canada as the example row. There are material differences between the changes you made and what we've discussed; we have already established that the headings you want are insufficient. We have not "agreed" to anything.

"Plug type" is insufficiently precise; these are only plugs which happen to have an IEC letter 'code' associated with them. "Residential voltage" is not acceptable because the rows don't include all residential voltages, just those that happen to be associated with the IEC plug types. "National plug standard" alone may be insufficiently precise, depending on the other two headings. I've made suggestions on how to improve the table: come back to the talk page and make a suggestion of your own. CplDHicks2 (talk) 16:16, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Quote CplDHicks2 (talk) "Plug type" is insufficiently precise; these are only plugs which happen to have an IEC letter 'code' associated with them. So, if there is no letter code, just put the relevant standard sheet number (eg NEMA 14-30 or 14-50) in this column, and make sure that it lines up with the appropriate voltage with which it is used. There is nothing to say you should not do that.

Quote CplDHicks2 (talk) "National plug standard" alone may be insufficiently precise, depending on the other two headings. Why do you think that? If there is more than one national standard, make multiple entries, and make sure that they line up with the plug type to which they refer, this has been the standard way of doing things for years (see Austria as an example).

Quote CplDHicks2 (talk) put the heading for voltage back to "Residential voltage. I have! The fact that you have not modified the Canada entry to show all residential voltages in the appropriate column is down to you, not me!

So once again, your unreasoned change is reverted because, as you can clearly see, there is no disagreement! FF-UK (talk) 17:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

No, we do have disagreement. You're just plucking quotes out of context and pretending there's no disagreement. With respect to the "plug type" heading I already said "For the sake of keeping the 'Plug Type' column from becoming overly confusing it's probably best not to muddle the IEC letter codes with others. I really do think just the small qualifier to make clear that the column lists 'IEC Plug Types' ought to suffice. Or maybe something like 'commonly-used plug types'."

With respect to the "voltage" heading I said [capitalization for emphasis] "MAYBE we... make it explicitly for residences (and put the heading for voltage back to "Residential voltage")". I don't agree that we ought to do such a thing without elaborating on other "mains voltages". CplDHicks2 (talk) 00:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I would like to have one column for the voltage at more common outlets, and one for the distribution voltage(s) for residential use. For countries that have an IEC plug, that should be fine. For those that don't, we need another way to indicate the plug(s) in use. Instead of long comments in the comments column, we could put a code letter, matching up with the long description at the end of the table. Gah4 (talk) 07:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk Please concentrate on improving this article, not just reverting every change I make! WP:DISRUPT

I have again undone your revert, and made some detailed improvements to explanations of the table. I have also reformatted the US entry to make it clear how this works. If you have further comments, please add them here, but do not simply revert as this gets us nowhere.

Gah4 (talk) If you are referring to separate columns for 120V and 240V, please bear in mind that will only cause confusion to anyone outside North America as split-phase is a rare phenomena in the rest of the world. I believe the object here is to simplify, not further complicate the table! Please take a look at the reformatted US entry which I believe is a much better, and simpler, way of presenting things. FF-UK (talk) 11:35, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

It is 120/240 or 120/208 for US, and as I understand it, 230/400 for much of Europe. I suppose split phase will be confusing to some, but 230/400 probably is just as confusing for those in North America. But the whole reason for wikipedia is to explain things so that people aren't confused. If not here, they should be explained somewhere else. Gah4 (talk) 00:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Why don't you concentrate on improving articles rather than being disruptive? If you make a change and it's reverted you should DISCUSS IT ON THE TALK PAGE (see WP:BRD; learn it, love it, live it), rather than persist in pushing through your preferred changes on the article page and throwing around accusations that others are disruptive. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, hahahaha!

Your "reformatted US entry" is perfectly emblematic of how confusing I thought it would be. "Plug types" and "National plug standard" are repeated in the first two columns. NEMA 14-30 and 14-50 receptacles are not necessarily the only plugs used on 240 V (or 208 V! Your "reformatted entry" doesn't include 208 V three-phase supplies!) circuits in homes. So now what? Are you going to include every 240 V NEMA plug in the table? And you now have four entries in the "Residential voltage" column, which a reader might interpret to mean there are some homes with a 120 V service that use NEMA 1-15P plugs, some homes with a 120 V service that use NEMA 5-15P, some with a 240 V service that use 14-30P, and some with a 240 V service that use 14-50P, when of course in fact ALL of these plugs are used in the exact same house with the exact same 120/240 service. (Or 120Y208 three-phase!)

I have reverted your change because we have still not satisfactorily resolved the issues, and you will discuss proposed changes here before making them to the article. If you want to throw together a sample row for the US do it here, just like I did earlier. CplDHicks2 (talk) 16:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk) please do not try to tell me what I will do! It is time you started to engage in a constructive manner and discuss this properly, not just revert! FF-UK (talk) 16:54, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I have engaged in a constructive manner; you're the one who has unrepentantly thrown insults around and cast aspersions, and doggedly won't listen to a god-damned thing anyone else suggests. It seems clear to me that you have no intention of discussing this no matter how many times I've asked (and finally told) you to continue discussing it. I will be reporting you for edit-warring; expect a notice on your talk page shortly. CplDHicks2 (talk) 04:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

CplDHicks2 (talk Can it be that you really think that telling another editor what he must do is going to be constructive? I started this particular discussion in an effort to have a proper constructive discussion, and you have blocked that from the beginning! You have still not given me any response to the point I made about your claim that "plugs are—or should be—beside the point of the article", to which I responded: I think we should remember that this article was originally the list headed "This is a list of countries and territories, with the plugs, voltages and frequencies they use." in the article AC power plugs and sockets, see diff. This was a redirect to the origin of this article Plugs have always been a major part of this article, and probably the main interest of most people viewing it. There is nowhere else on WP that you will find complete information on what is used in all countries. If you do not accept that point, then you are setting yourself against the purpose of the article, and that is never going to be the basis of a cooperative approach to improve it! FF-UK (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

W.r.t. telling other editors what they must do, I'm just taking a page out of your playbook; see this example at Talk:AC power plugs and sockets.

W.r.t. "plugs are—or should be—beside the point of the article", I already elaborated: "This article isn't about plugs, it's about "mains electricity". Or at least it ought to be about "mains electricity", because after all that's what the title of the damn thing is." In the interest of keeping the discussion on-topic I didn't want to get sucked into a stupid sidetracked argument about the name of the article. I put forward a proposal with a sample table—which of course you COMPLETELY ignored—and then assumed that because I don't want to get sucked into said stupid sidetracked argument about the name of the article that I'm fine with you doing whatever the hell you want to do.

I flat-out told you that I was not in agreement with your changes, and I told you why. I said "... we do have disagreement. You're just plucking quotes out of context and pretending there's no disagreement." Don't tell me there's no disagreement when I tell you that I disagree. It's your way of deflecting from the issue and shutting down discussion, and it's bullshit and not acceptable. I will tell you on my own terms if and when I agree with something you have to say.

In good faith I tried to discuss this with you civilly and all I got in return was the childish behaviour one has come to expect from you, with accusations of being "disruptive" and "refusing to discuss the matter" when I ASKED you REPEATEDLY to return to this very same page to discuss the issue. Only then did I TELL you to come back to the proverbial table and talk about it. You became even more intractably indignant and refused to discuss the matter any further. And now here we are with the page protected because of your antics. Good job. CplDHicks2 (talk) 00:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Should we have plugs in a separate articles from the voltages and frequencies? With the common portable devices (computer and phone chargers) accepting a wide voltage and frequency range, those are less important to most travelers. Somewhere there needs to be a good description of the distribution voltages and such, not necessarily for travelers. Gah4 (talk) 00:24, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4 (talk) Please remember this article is not just for travellers! It is not about distribution methods either, that is a separate subject which is covered at Electric power distribution, an article which does apparently need improvement, so if you find out more you might be able to contribute there. FF-UK (talk) 19:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The phrase "small electrics" is not uncommon at U.S. department and big box stores (at least here in New England) as one of the departments which is indicated by navigational signage. See for example [2]. It's short for "small electrical appliances", and distinguishes them from small mechanical kitchen and household appliances, which I'm sure some people might not even consider appliances since that word has electrical connotations in modern times. Anyway, if that is not perfectly clear to all English speakers, "small appliances" is a completely comprehensible alternative.

This article should definitely keep its list of plugs and sockets by country; that's almost half the point of having it, and since different plugs are used for different voltages, it make sense to keep those things together in by-country lists.

In the U.S., type B plugs are used for both small and some major appliances; they are not used for 240V appliances which are always major. So putting them in a column marked for "small appliances" makes sense to me. If that's confusing because it implies major appliances do not use compatible plugs (which is false), then we could use the more precise "Plug type for small and some major appliances". A good reason to do that is to keep separate columns for things a traveller might want to plug in vs. larger non-portable things only of interest to residents. But, it is a bit wordy.

Given there is currently no distinction made between high-demand and lower-demand appliances in most of the countries in the table, it does look very clean to keep "Plug type" as a single column, and just be sure to list both types for countries that make a distinction. Different countries make the distinction at different levels, like shaver sockets vs. type G in the UK, and the Italian and Swiss systems which seem more complicated. This mixes IEC and non-IEC plug types in the same column, but I think that's fine, given e.g. Thai plugs have to have a non-IEC name anyway.

The article is currently using a single plug column with "Plug type" as the header, and I'm thinking we should run with this style for a while and see how it goes. I think we should push notes about higher and lower-demand appliances out of the comments column as much as possible for brevity, but keep it clear which plugs and voltages and currents are used for what. So I'd propose:

• Adding a 5th row to the United States table entry, for NEMA 5-20R and 120V.
• Changing the United States comment to something like: 240V outlets are typically only used for high-demand major appliances. NEMA 5-20R outlets can be used by both small appliances that have type A or B plugs, and high-demand appliances up to 20A, which have NEMA 5-20P plugs. Typically, both 120V and 240V power are supplied to all buildings via the same connection using split-phase power.
• Updating the Canada entry to look more like the modified U.S. entry.
• Adding more data about high-demand and very-low-demand appliances in more countries, wherever these use different systems. (Which I think might include another row for 208V North American systems.)
• Adding the second-system and third-system plugs like NEMA-14s to the plug identification section.
• Adding a note to the lede, since these are straddling the boundary of what's currently in scope (home charging stations are residential, and getting more common) and I don't want to add the proliferation of electric car plugs to this article: Residential charging stations for electric vehicles can use generally available plugs and voltages, but for faster charging, application-specific circuits and systems (not described in this article) are sometimes installed.

Does all that make sense? If so, how would folks feel about adding a second row for the UK entry for shaver sockets? -- Beland (talk) 20:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Beland (talk), It is really not a question of what description a store may use for small electrical products, but that both "small electrics" and "small appliances" are grossly inaccurate as general descriptions of appliances which are supplied with a particular plug, as I explain in the first paragraph! No one could reasonably describe either of the examples I give (and there are many hundreds more valid examples) as "small".

The rest of your suggestions sound good, with the following provisos:

Strictly speaking the national standard which should be entered against the US is NEMA WD6 rather than the standard sheet for a particular type as I had done (the existing standard for Canada is correct).

The entry for NEMA connectors in the plug column should, I believe, be just the standard sheet number without the NEMA prefix (this avoids the repetition which CplDHicks2 has complained about, and takes up less space), however, if it is to be linked to the plug description, this is the place to do it.

The current references to shaver supply units in the comments section work because they do not reference any particular plug. If you change that to a plug entry, then for the UK that could be a single line, but that does not represent the fact that the shaver supply unit typically (but not necessarily) accepts four different plug standards, two of which have UK standards (BS 4573 and BS EN 50075), neither of which is compatible with a BS 1363 socket, and BS EN 50075 (Europlug) is only legal in UK for use with shavers and toothbrushes. That opens up a can of worms which is avoided by the current comment note.

FF-UK (talk) 21:48, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 12 July 2018

This is the reference for 120V supply in military installations in Okinawa. http://www.militaryinstallations.dod.mil/MOS/f?p=132:CONTENT:0::NO::P4_INST_ID%2CP4_INST_TYPE:2530%2CINSTALLATION Praneshpal (talk) 03:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done seems uncontroversial — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Korea

Why isn't South Korea on the list. According to this website, it should be type C and F: South Korea power plug and socket --Ben Best:Talk 14:03, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

???!, it is there! FF-UK (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

I mistakenly only looked at Korea. It would be helpful if there was an entry for Korea that pointed the user to North and South Korea. But I admit I was in a rush when I made this entry. --Ben Best:Talk 06:01, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

We generally don't do that in tables like this. Jeh (talk) 15:09, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

unsymmetric tolerance

I notice edits related to the 230V +10% -6%. Using such a tolerance, one can indicate that the most likely value, peak of the distribution, is 230V, with unequal tails, but I suspect that the real meaning is closer to 234.6V +/- 8%. That is, in the usual form of mean and standard deviation. Gah4 (talk) 13:14, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

No. What happened was that the UK originally ran 240 volts with symmetric tolerances. But they wanted to interwork with continental goods because of the EU countries, which run 230 volts with symmetric tolerances. So to start the change they changed the lower spec to that of the minimum of the continental 230 volts, so that all UK produced goods that met the spec should then work on the continent. In practice, almost all EU goods will also work at 240+ volts. That also opened the door for the electricity sector to slightly lower the supplied voltage to 230 volts over time in the UK to improve compatibility with EU goods further and ensure reliability. GliderMaven (talk) 14:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

OK. Tolerance is used for quantities that have a statistical uncertainty. In the case of mains wiring, there is voltage drop due to other loads, and that the usual regulating transformers have steps. Now, consider someone (company) building something for the UK market. It has to work over some range of voltages. What does the asymmetric tolerance mean in that case? Statistical convention is that tolerance is the standard deviation, assuming Gaussian distribution, and 68% of the time it is within that range. Otherwise, the next higher moment gives a skewed Gaussian. It doesn't seem to me that helps designers very much, though. Gah4 (talk) 18:23, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

In addition, this gets back to the discussion some time ago, about including tolerance in the table. The meaning of unsymmetric tolerance should be included, even if it isn't normally needed. Gah4 (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Basically the 230 V were also new for the countries on the continent, they had 220 V. In 1987 when the harmonisation began, and instead of 220 or 240 volt, the new standard voltage was 230 V. See [3], but the admissible operating voltage was asymmetrical -10%/+6% in order to avoid incompatibility issues especially with over-voltage with the existing equipment. The risk was assessed as low, as usual household appliances should be able to cope with more than +/-10% but just in case it was agreed to wait 1,5 decades to make the operating limits symmetrical again. Network operators (see EN 50160) shall deliver electrical energy at this voltage according to this range using the on-line tap changers in the power transformers and no-load tap chagers in distribution transformers. More flexibility makes it easier to take into account voltage drops or voltage rises (distributed generation) along the line. Thus, the figure as of today +/-10% are normative and are used as quality standard needed to coordinate network operation and the design of end-consumer devices. They do not result from a Gaussian distribution. The voltage distribution depends greatly if you are at the end of the line or next to the transformer, if you rather have loads only or if you have distributed feed-in of electrical power e.g. by PV and so forth. Gunnar (talk) 22:42, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Engineering tolerances are frequently not statistical (Ba-dum-psht!). Tolerances indicate if something is OK or not OK. If a hole needs to be "8 mm +0.05 -0", then you can have a billion conforming holes, but the moment that a hole is smaller than 8 mm, that hole is too small. Or, a single elliptical hole could be big enough in 99% of orientations, but if the minor axis is 7.999 mm, the hole is too small. User:NcLean 05:49, 13 Feb 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.200.5.70 (talk)

Residential voltages

Do we have any better sources for residential voltages? I would think that the countries running on 100-130v supply line voltages in fact have something else for running their stoves and heaters. I did some cursory searching and Mexico, for example, may have either 3 phase power at the home or use a North American style split phase 120/240, depending on where you are and such. It would be a great addition to the table if we can get some more sources! Many of the official regulations that have the specs are not in English for various countries, so if you know another language, that'd be really helpful stuff. Sabar^Cont 11:39, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

This article is about the usual outlets used for portable equipment. In US/Canada/Mexico the 240 volt appliances are either permanently wired, or else use dedicated outlets only for specific appliances; you might, possibly, have a demountable window air conditioner, but if it has a 240 V outlet, it will be used for nothing else. You won't find 240 V outlets in every room of the house ...or office...or store. It's probably not necessary to go into all the other voltages each country may make available, this article is focussed on stuff like hair dryers and phone chargers. --Wtshymanski (talk) 05:43, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I think sources are needed for the Japan one. It lists both 100 V and 200 V, but I can't see any mention of the 200 V elsewhere on the internet (results just end up pointing back to this page)...

Europe

I found this one North American versus European distribution systems with some explanation of European power. It would be nice if some Europeans in this discussion explained it, though. In the US, it is usual that a 25KVA transformer supplies about four houses. For three-phase power, as distributed to smaller industrial areas, you see three separate transformers on power poles. That is, instead of a single three-phase transformer. I don't know about the economics of transformer sizes. How many houses does a European 230/400 three-phase secondary supply? Gah4 (talk) 00:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Three-phase electric power (industrial applications only) has some voltages. I presume the same voltages are used for three-phase residential distribution. electrical service types and voltages has another table. Gah4 (talk) 00:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4 (talk) Electric power distribution is the appropriate page for this discussion, not here. FF-UK (talk) 19:48, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

OK, what I meant is in the secondary part of that article. It will need a lot of work to include what should be there, and not here. And if so, then this one becomes just plugs. There is no table by country, for example. Gah4 (talk) 03:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that this article is concerned with voltages on the consumer side of the distribution board. Electric power distribution is concerned with what happens between the transmission system and the service side of the distribution board. In other words, what we are concerned with here is the voltages available at the distribution board, but not how they get there. This has no effect on the voltage column of this article. FF-UK (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The discussion has moved on a bit since the above (sorry, I've been "head down" on some intense work projects for the last few weeks). But I support this view by FF-UK. "Mains electricity" (UK) or "wall current" (US) is always talking about the end-user side of what we call the "panel". Distribution is another matter entirely. Jeh (talk) 10:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Full ack. This article here is about end user interfaces, meaning low voltage networks and their socket outlets. --Gunnar (talk) 22:01, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I wrote on talk:Electric power distribution about possible changes, such as dividing between everything before, and after, the last transformer. Many of us know about US 120/240, and a few less about 120/208, such that most 120/240 appliances are designed to also work on 120/208. Many of us don't know about European 230/400, though I am starting to learn a little about it. Even less about Africa and Asia. But yes, 120/240 or 120/208 is available at the panel in US residences, the latter more usual for larger ones. Any comments about UK power? Gah4 (talk) 19:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4 (talk) As I have written a couple of times before, one possibility is commercial documents like this one from Legrand: https://www.legrand.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf which provides information for 7 major countries in the world. What this document also does is to provide information on some of the complexities when you start to look at how higher current appliances are connected. For instance, in UK homes we only use plugs and sockets up to 13A, and above that we hard wire appliances via suitable protective devices, also, 3 phase connection to a home in UK is very rare. In France high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs, and 3 phase is rare. In Germany 3 phase is the norm, and high current devices may be hard wired or via plugs. FF-UK (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Not so easy to follow, but it seems like UK distributes one phase of 230V, where Germany distributes three phase 230/400 to houses. And Brazil distributes two phases of a 127/220 three phase system. Just to be sure, at this point I am not interested in what goes near a house, but only what goes into an actual house, breaker panel or fuse box. If three-phase goes down a street, that would be mentioned in Electric power distribution, but if only one phase goes into a house, that would go here. Transformer VA ratings, and the number of houses per transformer might be interesting in Electric power distribution, too (typical values). Gah4 (talk) 03:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Gah4, Electric power distribution tells us (without a source) that In the UK a typical urban or suburban low-voltage substation would normally be rated between 150 kVA and 1 MVA and supply a whole neighborhood of a few hundred houses. That may be correct, but although I have looked on several occasions, I have completely failed to find any sources. You write: it seems like UK distributes one phase of 230V, it would be more correct to say that all three phases are distributed, but normally only one is connected to each house. My understanding is that the phases are connected in turn, ie the first house would be connected to the first phase, the second house to the second phase etc. But again, I am unable to give you a source for this. FF-UK (talk) 13:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

As noted, and I agree, this article should be what is seen at an individual house. Assuming you are in the UK, you could walk down the street and do some WP:OR. (Allowed for talk, not for articles.) Where I am in the US, we have underground power lines, so I can't easily go look. Not so far away, though, I can find them above ground. Do we have a WP:RS for three-phase to the house in Germany? Any other countries? From the pictures in [4] it looks like India has three-phase breaker panels, though maybe not a WP:RS. Gah4 (talk) 19:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

In Germany the (minimum) standard for the grid connection is three phase 400 V, 63 A. I think that was introduced in the 1970s. Three phase point of connection reduces problems with the neutral phase in case of asymmetric loads. That means about 40 kW maximum power, but it does not mean the whole distribution system is capable to deliver this. The maximum simultaneousness load is about 3-4 kW, meaning it is ok for a few houses in the street to start a 20 kW flow-type water heater, but if everybody did this, it would trigger the transformer protection. Distribution transformer sizes depend on the load density, 1 MVA is the largest but rather unusual. 630 kVA and 400 kVA are more common, and the smaller ones below that are for low population densities.Gunnar (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Looking in the street is not going to help as all LV distribution in UK cities and towns is underground. You have to be way out in the country to find visible poles, usually only to isolated single properties. FF-UK (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. It costs somewhat more, so usually would not be done in lower priced areas. Underground wiring is fairly rare in US cities. Looking at some places in Google Streetview, I see some with a pole with wires to many houses. I suppose this is telephone wiring, or something similar. Gah4 (talk) 22:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Here street view is a typical US street with primary and secondary wiring. Primary is a the top, secondary lower, which usually goes to four houses, two on each side of a street, or between two streets. Gah4 (talk) 02:46, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

In at least parts of Europe, underground mains supply to houses is used because power poles are too vulnerable to being blown over by heavy winds or runaway cars, while most inhabited areas have thick enough layers of easily worked topsoil to keep the cost of safely burying cables reasonable. However 50 years ago, running overhead exposed power wires into houses was still the norm, which means that such supplies can be found wherever they have not been replaced since back then. (Note: Denmark recently completed a 20 year program to almost completely bury all power distribution in political response to a major storm). Jbohmdk (talk) 18:05, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know, underground costs more. Where I live, the neighborhood paid some years ago to get them underground, as it looks nicer. There is recent news, though, that PG&E is going to bury some of their long distance power lines. That will be interesting to see. Gah4 (talk) 22:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

India

According to the article, the residential voltage in India is 230 V but three phase voltage is 415 V. However $230\times {\sqrt {3}}=398\approx 400$ and not $415$. The source for the 415 V value says that residential voltage is 240 V. Many Indian books and textbooks state this value to be 220 V. As far as I know, the residential voltage is 230 V and three phase voltage is 400 V following IEC 60038. I, however have no source for this value. All three values lie within the tolerance range.

Arnav Bhate (talk) 13:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

It's worthwhile bearing in mind that, these days, 230V is often used as a 'nominal' value such as throughout Europe (actually 230V +/- 10%). Although the nominal mains voltage for Europe is 230V, very few countries actually have 230V mains supplies. 220V (mostly) and 240V are often encountered both of which are well within 10%. 250V is sometimes encountered in some suburbs of large UK cities (London is a notable example) which is still within 10%. Most modern appliances are not overly fussy about their supply voltage apart from incandescent light bulbs which still exist for some applications. 86.162.147.159 (talk) 12:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)