Talk:Maji Maji Rebellion

Conflicting casulties figures

According to the Gustav Adolf von Götzen article the casulties of the Maji Maji rebellion were: "It is estimated that up to 300,000 Africans were killed, while the German side lost 15 Europeans and 389 African soldiers, according to official data compiled by Götzen." This article states otherwise. Fred26 10:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

While the article no longer states otherwise, the info box does. Which number is correct, I don't know, but there is quite a discrepancy between them.--172.162.12.102 (talk) 08:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know where the ~10,000 casualties figure in the info box comes from. It should read 250,000-300,000. Most historians today agree on this number, see for instance Isabel Hull (2005), Absolute Destruction: Military Culture and the Practices of War in Imperial Germany, p. 157: "One contemporary scholar estimated a death toll of one hundred and fifty thousand; a modern estimate is two hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand, or one third of the population of the rebellious areas." (Citing Noske, Kolonialpolitik, 123; Iliffe, Modern History of the Tanganika, 200). ClaireV (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I think that the larger number includes the subsequent famine which killed many more than the fighting ever did, even though it was certainly a result of it. I may be wrong though. Why not add the cited figure you mention to the article? —Brigade Piron (talk) 20:08, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

But if exterminating the population through a deliberately engineered famine is an established war strategy (as was the case here), surely the resulting deaths should be included in the conflict casualty count? Why not have the numbers the other way around, namely 250,000-300,000 in the info box and then specify in the article that while ~10,000 died in direct fighting a further 250,000+ died as a direct result of a strategy of extermination that was central to the German war effort? I am quoting Isabel Hull again here: “The greatest mortality in numbers occurred not in South West Africa but in German East Africa. It was the result of a type of total war Europeans regarded as peculiarly colonial: the destruction of all dwellings, food stores, domestic animals, and planted fields. Kriegsbrauch (the semi-official manual of war conduct) specifically permitted such a war only against ‘wild people and barbarians’; the British export on ‘small wars’ thought these tactics ‘unfortunate’ but sometimes necessary. A ‘hunger war’ of this type appears to have been conducted by Germans for the first time in East Africa in 1897 against holdouts in the Wahehe rebellion.” (155) ClaireV (talk) 12:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

As I said, if you have a figure quoted in a WP:RS, please add it (with the citation) to the article. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I understood what you said very well, but I suggested something different, which I am happy to further discuss if you still disagree with me. It is not the same thing to mention the greater casualty figure in the article while leaving '~10,000' in the info box and to state '~250,000-300,000' in the info box. You are speaking of adding alternative information, while I am speaking of replacing what I consider to be an erroneous figure. The rationale I have put forth is that if deaths result from an explicit military strategy/a set of war tactics, they should be counted as 'casualties and losses' in the info box, not excluded on the basis that they didn't result from 'the fighting,' by which I suppose you mean 'direct combat'. Only counting casualties from direct combat seems unduly restrictive, particularly as this is not even a page about a specific battle but about the rebellion more broadly. Would you exclude, for instance, the deaths caused by strategic bombing in the casualty counts of any of the main twentieth century wars? [I am still speaking of the numbers that appear in the info box of these conflicts, not in the broader article] If so, please explain, and if not, then why proceed differently here? Perhaps we could discuss a possible military deaths/civilian deaths distinction in the info box, but I am not sure it would actually particularly accurate here, hence my initial suggestion of just using the global figure cited by contemporary historians. ClaireV (talk) 12:52, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

ClaireV, I'm trying to be as clear as possible: if you can find a reputable secondary source which uses the methodology you describe and cites the same figure, add the information (and the cite). This isn't about what any of us feels should be the case - we can only report what published books/articles/news stories have said about it.—Brigade Piron (talk) 14:58, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Isabel Hull, the source I initially cited, is the most recent scholarly monograph on the subject and counts the conflict casualties exactly as I have suggested (as in, including the deliberately induced famine). This was my initial point. As you say, it is not up for us to decide what the methodology ought to be, so if you have another more widely recognized source that reports the conflict casualties differently then we can discuss this again, but otherwise I will go ahead and make the edit. ClaireV (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Hongo and the misleading link

I checked the link from the name "Hongo" and found, correctly enough, a disambiguation page for it. What I was disappointed to see, was no further link to anything other than Japanese or Asian persons or meanings. I challenge the usefullness of linking the name Hongo at all in this article, since there is nothing truly related to the use of the name Hongo in this article. Wouldn't it be better to remove the link until someone writes about the African version/use of Hongo?
--TrondBK (talk) 23:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Organised famine as a weapon against conquered people

"The New Is Not Yet Born: Conflict Resolution in Southern Africa

By Thomas Ohlson"

German authorities created famine as a weapon to crush the Maji Maji rebellion.

Should be added to article. Perhaps also a series/template of German military use of famine should be created considering plans to starve Polish population in WW1 and Hunger Plan--Molobo (talk) 05:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps also a series/template of the use of famine by the forces of the United States in its wars against native-Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries. I believe the record shows that native-American food supplies were often targeted for that reason, and that the mass shooting of bison ("buffalo") was also intended to deprive native-Americans of their traditional food source.

Please understand, I am not picking on the Americans. I'm sure some of you specialists in other areas can add examples of similar policies by other groups -- not all of them European or European-American. The Communists did this in the Ukraine in the early 1930s, and I believe the Japanese did this in some areas of China c. 1940-1941. (71.22.47.232 (talk) 09:14, 2 February 2011 (UTC))

Copyright problem

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