Talk:Makar (disambiguation)

Requested move 5 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 13:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

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• Makar (disambiguation) → Makar
• Makar → Makar (poet)

– I'm not able to find any indication that the Scottish term for a poet is the primary topic over everything else on the dab page. Google Scholar, books etc. only give results for people with the name. There is also a sizable Nepalese town by this name. (t · c) buidhe 07:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Waqar💬 08:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose No evidence that the poet is not the primary topic here by both longterm significance and pageviews. Everything else is either WP:PTM or gets almost no views. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Primary topic by long-term significance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
• Per WP:DPT, let's try to look at the data about this:

clickstream archive recent snapshot

From meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream:

clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:

• Makar Makar_(disambiguation) link 46
• Makar Makar_(National_Poet_for_Scotland) link 35
• Makar William_Dunbar link 25
• Makar Kathleen_Jamie link 14
• Makar Robert_Henryson link 11
• Makar St_Andrews_Cathedral link 10
• Makar Gavin_Douglas link 10
• total: 151 to 7 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

• Makar Makar_(National_Poet_for_Scotland) link 35
• Makar Makar_(disambiguation) link 29
• Makar William_Dunbar link 28
• Makar St_Andrews_Cathedral link 12
• Makar Bard link 11
• Makar Robert_Henryson link 10
• Makar Middle_Scots link 10
• Makar Jackie_Kay link 10
• total: 145 to 8 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

• Makar Makar_(National_Poet_for_Scotland) link 36
• Makar William_Dunbar link 20
• Makar St_Andrews_Cathedral link 16
• Makar Makar_(disambiguation) link 15
• Makar Liz_Lochhead link 11
• Makar Robert_Henryson link 10
• total: 108 to 6 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

• Makar Makar_(National_Poet_for_Scotland) link 39
• Makar Makar_(disambiguation) link 32
• Makar William_Dunbar link 24
• Makar Robert_Henryson link 22
• Makar Scop link 12
• Makar Kathleen_Jamie link 12
• Makar Gavin_Douglas link 12
• Makar St_Andrews_Cathedral link 11
• Makar Bard link 11
• total: 175 to 9 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

• Makar Makar_(disambiguation) link 43
• Makar Makar_(National_Poet_for_Scotland) link 43
• Makar St_Andrews_Cathedral link 15
• Makar William_Dunbar link 14
• Makar Robert_Henryson link 11
• Makar Kathleen_Jamie link 11
• total: 137 to 6 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:

• Makar Makar_(National_Poet_for_Scotland) link 41
• Makar Makar_(disambiguation) link 37
• Makar St_Andrews_Cathedral link 17
• Makar William_Dunbar link 15
• Makar Robert_Henryson link 13
• total: 123 to 5 identified destinations

It is suspect that the hatnote and the other ambiguous term come up so consistently as the most commonly clicked links from this article, and overall there's not a lot of traffic. We've had similar examples before, I think it makes sense to move in order to present readers a list, and then we can measure more accurately whether there's primary topic by usage.

By long-term significance, we have to look at the big picture - what is the combined significance of all the topics named 'Makar'? We can glean some hints from the overall reader interest:

• all-time mass views of all topics linked from Makar (disambiguation)
• all-time mass views of all topics linked from Makar (given name)
• all-time mass views of all topics linked from Makar (surname)

There's a hockey player, a murder victim, a jurist, a figure skater, a motorcycle racer, a protagonist of a fictional story, ... hard to tell if the significance of the Scottish concept outweighs all that. --Joy (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

That's why I think Google scholar and similar databases are a better indicator. There are many notable people named Makar that don't have an article. Most of them are better known in Russia /Belarus /Ukraine than in English speaking countries but that doesn't affect their long term significance, so if anything the Google scholar results would be an underestimate. (t · c) buidhe 18:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. It's hard to gauge what's best for the average English reader. An average UK reader or an average literature enthusiast might be more likely to be familiar with the Scottish concept, but otherwise it doesn't seem that likely. --Joy (talk) 06:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

But are those people ONLY named Makar? Otherwise it would fall under WP:PTM. DAB pages are supposed to disambiguate between articles with totally identical names or alternate names. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it would not be a violation of WP:PTM, rather it would be more akin to the geography clause of it. Please check WT:D and its archives for ample precedent on how we know we have a contingent of readers who use all of people's names (not just their full names) to look for people's biographies. --Joy (talk) 08:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist; there is a strong argument coming from both sides but saying that "something isn't that" (eg Cup isn't car) should come with a reason: citations to WP policies and sources. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Disambiguation has been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: the page views suggest that the views for Makar (National Poet for Scotland) far outweigh those for any of the other pages, so readers arriving at Makar are probably going there, rather than to the dab page to look for other uses. As the National Poet sense of the word is derived from the basic use of the word "Makar", it makes sense for the reader to find the general use first and then be offered the link to the National Poet and other uses via the dab page. PamD 08:02, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.