Talk:Manasa/GA1

GA Review

Hi, I will be reviewing your article, Manasa, for GA and will be adding comments below. On first reading, it appears to be a well-written and well- referenced article. Please feel free to add comments or questions. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Bengal should be wikilinked at first mention in the lede, and not for the first time under Mangalkavyas.

Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "rejection by her father Shiva or sage Kashyapa and her husband..." - is there a reason for the "or" as in "her father Shiva or sage Kashyapa and her husband..." - are her father and sage the same person? Or should it be - rejection by her father Shiva, her sage Kashyapa, and her husband...?

Shiva or the sage is considered her father, depending upon the source. added "In some scriptures, sage Kashyapa is considered her father, not Shiva."--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Denied full godhead by her mixed parentage, Manasa’s aim was to fully establish her authority as a goddess and to acquire steadfast human devotees." - This is the first sentence that is in the past tense - "was". Is there a reason for this? Did she succeed in this and therefore it is no longer her aim, for example?

The past tense is used as Hindus believe that events mentioned in the scriptures, happened in the past. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Originally a Adivasi goddess" - originally an Adivasi

Adivasi is a tribe in India.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Manasa was accepted in the worship of Hindu lower caste groups..." - not sure about this - accepted for worship? or accepted in the ceremonies of worhip by the Hindu lower caste - or some other wording of your choice.

Reworded "Originally a Adivasi (tribal) goddess, Manasa was accepted in the pantheon worshipped by Hindu lower caste groups."--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "where she is now regarded as Hindu goddess than a tribal one" - now regarded as a Hindu goddess rather than a tribal one. (You could explain the difference between being a Hindu rather than a tribal goddess.)

reworded "Originally a Adivasi (tribal) goddess".--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "She was then recognized as a daughter of sage Kashyapa and Kadru, the mother of all Nāgas." - Is this because she is now a Hindu goddess? If so, then explain - As a Hindu goddess, she was recognized as a daughter of the sage, Kashyapa, and of Kadru, the mother of all....

Reworded. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "By the 14th century, Manasa - the goddess of fertility and marriage rites - was assimilated into Shiva's pantheon." - Could you expand on the meaning of being assimilated into Shiva's pantheon and how this happened? Also, why are you mentioning "the goddess of fertility and marriage rites" here? Is this when she became the goddess of fertility and marriage rites?

reworded. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Myths glorified Manasa, who saved the Shiva after he drank poison." and "Manasa was then venerated as the "remover of poison" - Myths glorified her by describing that she saved Shiva after he drank the poison, venerating her as the "remover of poison? (combine the two sentences)

Nice suggestion. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Her popularity grew and spread in southern India as well and began "to rival" Shaivism" - is there a time frame for this? Did it grew during a certain era or period of time? Maybe explain why Shaivism was a rival.

Sadly the reference does not say anything about it.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "In reaction, stories attributing Manasa's birth to Shiva emerged and thus Shaivism adopted the indigenous goddess in the Brahmanical tradition of mainstream Hinduism." - Could you explain "in raction" more fully. What was happening here?

Shaivism is the cult of Shiva. "to rival" Shaivism (the cult of Shiva). so "in reaction", to belittle the goddess. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "She is depicted as a woman covered with snakes," - Start the section using her name rather than "she". - Manasa is depicted as...

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "She is flanked by a canopy of seven hoods of cobras" - Should it be - She is flanked by the hoods of seven cobras?

Please see the infobox img, the head is sheltered by the canopy of the hoods of seven cobras.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "her son Astīka" - needs comma - her son, Astīka - also, Astīka should be wikilinked at first mention rather than later.

Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Who is "Vasuki" and what is the "Nāga race"?

Vasuki, king of Nāgas (snakes): lead. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Puranas" should be wikilinked.

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "They declare sage Kashyapa her father, not Shiva as in the Mangalkavyas." - They declare that sage Kashyapa is her father, not Shiva as described in the Mangalkavyas. - or some wording you like.

Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Once, when serpents and reptiles had created chaos on the earth, sage Kashyapa created goddess Manasa from his mind (mana)." - The Puranas describe how once, when serpents and reptiles....etc.
• "Having chanted mantras, Manasa controlled the earth." - This is unclear. Why did she chant mantras and how did chanting mantras give her control of the earth?
• "Manasa then propitiated god Shiva" - unclear - she gained the favor of the god Shiva? What does propitiate mean in this case?

"To conciliate (an offended power); appease: propitiate the gods with a sacrifice." [1]--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "On being pleased" - Upon being pleased

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Kashyapa married her to sage Jaratkaru, who married Manasa on the condition" - Kashyapa married Manasa to sage Jaratkaru, who married her on the condition...

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Once when Jaratkaru was woken by Manasa because he was late for worship he got upset and deserted her." - needs commas and rewording - Once, when Jaratkaru was awakened by Manasa, he became upset with her because this made him late for worship, and so he deserted her. - or wording you like.

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "stepmother Chandi" - needs comma - stepmother, Chandi.

Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "and they had a son named Astika." - you have already mentioned above that Manasa had a son. So you could reword it in one or both places, perhaps - and they had Astika, their son. Or wording you like.

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Mangalkavyas - this section is much better, as it explains more and has more continuity.

Thanks. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "she descended to earth to get human devotees." = to obtain human devotees? or, to gather human devotees? to attract human devotees?

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "The ‘’Mangal kavyas’’ say after this Manasa's worship became ever popular" - The Mangal kavyas’’ say that after this, Manasa's worship became forever popular? - "‘’Mangal kavyas’’" should be Mangal kavayas.

Done. Mangal kavyas is right. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Manasa Mangalkavya attributes her hardships in getting devotees to an unjust curse she gave in her anger to Chand in his previous birth to be born as a human, which retaliated with a counter-curse that her worship would not be popular on earth unless he worships her." - This is too long and complicated. It needs to be more than one sentence and explained more clearly. Also, why is her name longer: "Manasa Mangalkavya"?

It's the name of the text "Manasa Mangalkavya’’ by Bijay Gupta", mentioned at the start of Mangalkavyas. Split sentence. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Mycenaean" needs to be disambiguated.

Mycenaean Greece link added.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Is there a way that you could move the last image so that it does not distort the reference section?

Done. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

These are mostly grammatical issues that you can fix easily. It would also help if you could give more context, explain a bit more, regarding some of the names and terms, rather than relying completely on the wikilink to do all the explaining to the reader.

All in all, it is a very good article, as much such articles on these subjects are not well referenced nor as clearly explained. The organization is good and the images check out. Good luck! —Mattisse (Talk) 22:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

More comments

• "She is flanked by a canopy of seven hoods of cobras" - this still sounds wrong. Could you not use your own words from above:

"is sheltered by the canopy of the hoods of seven cobras"? - also, this section lacks a reference.

reword done. Ref added. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Having chanted mantras, Manasa controlled the earth." - This is unclear. Why did she chant mantras and how did chanting mantras give her control of the earth?" - can you explain this more clearly?

rewrote. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• I rewrote the Mangalkavyas section which you can revert if you do not approve of it. If you do revert it, make sure you correct the elispses [...] and the punctuation in the quotation. Also, make sure there are no spaces between a period and the reference following it.

Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• There are still many proses issues with the article. The prose does not flow naturally and the wording is awkward in places. I realize how difficult it is to translate this information into prose that is encyclopaedic. Also, I know there is difficulty in explaining what happened in myths in a way that makes sense to the general reader and holds together as a story line. You have done a much better job than most such articles. However, I have reservations about passing it as a GA as it is. Perhaps you could have someone familiar with the subject also copy edit it for English prose and continuity. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

More comments

It is greatly improved. However the references are inconsistent. Could you make sure they are all in a consistent format? —Mattisse (Talk) 20:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)  Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I added cite web to the web reference and since worshiped and worshipped were both being used in the article, I changed all to the British spelling "worshipped". I guessed that you would be using the British spelling. Let me know if I am wrong and I will change it back. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Final GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): The prose in articles on these subjects is difficult to make clear and concise, as the sources are usually not. You have done a good job, especially in comparison to other articles on these topics. b (MoS): There are no obvious MoS errors

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): Article is adequately referenced. b (citations to reliable sources): The sources are reliable. c (OR): There is no OR.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Good work! These articles are extremely difficult to write for the general reader. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)