Talk:Manti (food)

Armenian Cuisine

Manti is part of the Armenian cuisine it is wide spread. This source: "Armenian Food: Fact, Fiction & Folklore By Irina Petrosian, David Underwood" says it all about the Armenian foods explains how it originated or how Armenians observed it into there cuisine or culture for Mantı . Nareklm 15:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm adding it into the article then.Ombudsee 08:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I have not seen this book, but the Amazon.com information does not give me great confidence that it is a good source. The publisher's blurb includes "What ancient Armenian fable warned against genetically-altered food? What little-known Armenian fruit may have helped Noah on the ark? What was the diet of David of Sassoun, the legendary Armenian Hercules?" And who is the publisher? Lulu, a vanity press which you pay to publish your book. That is, the authors couldn't find a reputable publisher to publish this. This might be because it is of specialized interest, of course. By the way, the Oxford Companion to Food has a good article on Armenian food, which doesn't mention mantı (of course, it can't mention everything). --Macrakis 17:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well you know in the case of cuisines, it's more of an area thing rather than nationality. I mean is hummus a part of Turkish cuisine or not? or can imambayildi also be considered as greek? I think it's more like how you percieve it. I know that mantı is served also in Azerbaijan and probably in Georgia too, so maybe we can change the wording the consist all those. So what do you say, in or out orchange the wording?

The picture on the article by the way has nothing to do with Turkish mantı by any means by the way. Maybe I'll cook some and photograph it to put here.Ombudsee 19:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you folks know that Korean cuisine has a dish called "Mantuk", or similr sounding? It basically Manti we know, but bigger parts, more regular and round, and soupy. It clearly points to the Central Asian origins.Murat (talk) 02:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone go over the sources please?

I've never seen this "bibliography section" type of a sourcing anywhere else. It sounds like the english essays with pharaphrasing we did in the university. Can someone with a good command on how sourcing works can fix that section? I'll do it if nobody else does but I guess first I'll have to learn how to.Ombudsee 08:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Splitting the article?

Should we split the article into two as Mantı and Mantu? As far as I see Mantı (Anatolian version, namely Turkish and Armenian versions) are quite different from Mantu (the central asian versions by the Kazakh, Uzbek and the Afghan) in terms of sizes, serving, style of serving, and style of cooking (I mean look at the pictures) We can link the articles to each other and mention about the etimology and the similarities but imho it's absurd to put all of them together in the same article just because their name sound similar. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 01:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, it seems to me that the Afghan mantu has more in common with the Turkish mantı - I mean they both use yoghurt, garlic and mint - than with the Kazakh or Uzbek mänti, which are comparatively bland. It's true that Turkish mantı are small, whereas the Kazakh or Uzbek mänti are large. However, the Armenian dumpling seems closer to the Kazakh/Uzbek variety than to the Turkish based solely on the size from the picture. And I can't tell from the article, what size the Afghan mantu is supposed to be. So, I think it's difficult to draw a clear line separating these dishes and we shouldn't rush into it. Selerian (talk) 17:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. PeterSymonds (talk) 12:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Manti and mantu are closely related historically (see Zaida & Tapper, Charles Perry, Anderson & Buell). I think they should not be separated. Ellenois (talk) 02:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Mantı → Manti (dumpling) — the original name of the article Mantı cannot be typed on a standard English keyboard — Zlerman (talk) 12:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support per WP:ENGLISH. I believe most English sources will call them "manti" rather than "mantı". -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
• The typing argument is irrelevant - that is what the combination of redirects and the special characters editing box below the save page button is for. What is relevant, however, is usage in English-language sources. If you can provide evidence of usage that shows the dotted version is more popular, then the page should be moved. Knepflerle (talk) 14:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

  Google hits: 352 English pages for +Mantı dumpling, 2,430 English pages for +Manti dumpling. In Google News, the hits drop to 1 for Mantı dumpling (Turkish Daily News) and 2 for Manti dumpling (Los Angeles Times, Condé Nast Portfolio), which I think is also significant. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

  More on English usage beyond Google: Alan Davidson’s The Oxford Companion to Food (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999) writes, “In Turkey and Armenia, manti is a tiny boat-shaped pasta … stuffed with ground lamb” (p. 477). The word manti is used four more times in the next paragraph on p. 477. This usage of manti occurs in an article entitled “Mantou or mantu”, which is defined as the Central Asian equivalent of ravioli.

  Perhaps we should also remember that “mantı” (with undotted ı) is a strictly Turkish spelling, whereas the Wikipedia article talks of “a type of dumpling in Turkish and various Central Asian cuisines”. There is no justification to use the specific Turkish spelling (with undotted ı) for describing a dish from Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, or Iran. A neutral English spelling (with a regular dotted i) is preferable for the general users of Wikipedia as an English encyclopedia. --Zlerman (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

  • The evidence you demonstrate makes the decision pretty straightforward. Knepflerle (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• The same could be said about the many articles on foreign places whose names contain foreign letters such as ë ß ø ñ etc. I remember Turkish undotted lowercase 'i' well from work: logging (in Word Perfect 5 for DOS) user queries from a student (Ramazan Kayıkcı) whose name contained it twice. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pakistani Mantus

I have added the paragraph to the Afghan section as the regions in which mantu are consumed in Pakistan are on the Afghan border and this dish has been made popular due to close cultural links with the Badakhshan province of Northern Afghanistan. Please do not delete it again. If you wish to seperate it from the Afghanistan section, then create a new Pakistan section. [Unsigned comment by anon User:119.152.246.129 12:23 25 September 2008. Info added by --Zlerman (talk) 13:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)]

• Can you try to provide a reference for this, please? We have enough unsourced statements in this article already. --Zlerman (talk) 13:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Balance and factual accuracy

I tagged the article as unbalanced and as having disputed factual accuracy due to the following statements:

• "In Afghan cuisine, the mantu are filled with a ground lamb or beef mixture, steamed and then topped with yogurt, dried mint power and olive oil, garlic, lemon juice, and coriander." ← Overly broad, unqualified, unverifiable statements, it's implausible that no other meat is ever used for the filling, or that the topping always uses the exact same six ingredients.
• "Adding fat to meat Manti is essential, as fat makes it extra juicy and delicious." ← Pure POV. If that's the mainstream view, it should be stated as such.
• "Because the dish is so fatty, Manti is always accompanied by hot tea and it is strongly advisable not to consume any cold or chilled beverages immediately after consumption of Manti" [sic] ← Implausibly broad, unverifiable statement.

-- Gordon Ecker (talk) 22:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• and sorry, but what does Manty have to do with Mantou? not every baked good that sounds roughly similar are related. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.253.82 (talk) 01:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Origin of name

Does anyone know if the name of the dish originated with Chinese "mantou" (Korean mandu)? Thanks! --152.3.130.195 (talk) 12:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

According to Charles Perry (article in Anderson & Buell) and Gene Anderson and Paul Buell, A Soup for the Qan, the source is actually in the Turkic language and entered Chinese when the Mongols, with their large cohort of Turkic peoples, ruled China. Ellenois (talk) 02:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Armenian Cuisine II

I think the history section is in need of modification. Manti of the former Ottoman Empire is of Armenian style manti because it is distinct from the Central Asian manti of today. I wish this would have a separate category otherwise everything in the dumpling category can be described as manti including ravioli, baozi, jiaozi, wonton, mandu (Korean), khinkali, etc. What Central Asians eat as manti today is vastly different than what Armenians eat, because Armenian manti is small whereas Cenral Asian manti is apparently larger and eaten differently. Turkish manti is also small, taking after Armenian manti. In the book Armenian Food: Fact, Fiction & Folklore the authors explain that Manti is indeed of Asian origin but it was not brought by migrating Turkic tribes, but rather during the alliance of the Mongols and Armenians in the middle ages through their friendly interaction. Consequently the Armenians developed their own style of manti-making where it was later adopted by the Ottoman Turks. The mongol-Armenian alliance was some 200 years before the Ottoman period. Note that the Armenian-Mongol Alliance was with (western) Cilician Armenia, whereas the Armenians in Eastern Armenia have another style of manti called khinkali which was also brought by the Mongols by way of Georgia. In the article on Mandu, apparently in Korea mandu = manti was also brought by the Mongols further reinforcing these facts. Thus the fact remains that Armenian style manti (which is also part of Turkish cuisine but not Turkish-Azerbaijani) is distict from the manti of Central Asia - the idea may have come from there by Mongolia to Clician Armenia, but the two foods are not the same, and I would like to hear opinions on how to address this issue.Thinkfood (talk) 18:24, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Nikuman

Is there any difference between Manti and Nikuman besides meat of different livestock used. If they are similar link should be added to both articles. From the description of Nikuman and my own experience with Manti they look pretty much the same thing to me. SydykovAybek (talk) 09:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Bosnia: Klepe seems not necessarily the same thing as Manti...

In Bosnian cuisine, the name manti IS known and used as well. See here, for instance: http://www.bosanskikuhar.ba/tag/klepe/ -andy 2.242.207.241 (talk) 12:24, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Not reliable source

Off-shell There is a reason I removed the source sras as unreliable. There is no such word as "mantau" in Uyghur. Go try looking it up, you will find no other source spelling it that way. Ask User:Rjanag what it is called in Uyghur.Rajmaan (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I suppose they just misspelled mantou, when they wrote mantau. May be, they translated this text from Russian into English and didn't check the English spelling. Apart from this minor issue, I think they don't make any controversial statements. It is now mainly used as a reference for the fact that manti are also widely known in Russia (apart from pelmeni and varenyky). --Off-shell (talk) 21:38, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

That is also a problem because it isn't mantou in Uyghur either. Mantou is only used in Mandarin Chinese, where it is used to refer to steamed bread. It says it refers to "bread prepared in steam.", yet the Uyghur dish appears to be a meat filled dumpling with mutton and pumpkin. There is something seriously mixed up in that source.Rajmaan (talk) 23:26, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks like it is called manta in Uyghur ([1], [2], 3). --Off-shell (talk) 07:40, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

The first source says manta is a loanword from Mandarin.Rajmaan (talk) 22:47, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, manta is cognate with mantou, and a common opinion is that mantou is the original word. However, an uncertainty remains due to the originally different Chinese spellings of mantou, as pointed in Davidson's Oxford Companion to Food. So the word may be borrowed from Mandarin, but the current recipe seems to be different from mantou (and also from the original mantou which was like baozi). Or is there an evidence that the recipe itself was also taken by Uyghurs from Chinese? --Off-shell (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

SRAS didn't cite where it got its information from about where manti originated. We need to use a secondary source which shows where it cited its primary source from (such as a recipe dating back to Medieval times). Otherwise the source is useless. Medieval Uyghurs were Buddhists, see Kingdom of Qocho. Their dietary habits were different from Muslims.Rajmaan (talk) 01:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

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Lede photo

The lede photo should be clearly a picture of manti - you can't tell what they are from just a few dumplings in a steamer. They could be pork buns or anything else. The excuse that I am trying to push some bias for "Turkish manti" is incredible, since the first image I put up was of Armenian manti and that was reverted too to push the lede photo. The reversions are also damaging to the formatting - I spaced the photos out correctly so the page looks much better then the version that is being reverted to. Seraphim System ^(talk) 05:21, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hello Seraphim System, this is to avoid edit warring. Please learn first what different styles of manti in different countries and regions mean. There are several sources in the article. Manti were probably created by Uyghurs and brought to Anatolia. The big manti filled with pumpkin (kawa manta) are typical Uyghur manti. The image is from an Uyghur restaurant. Uzbek manti as shown on the other image are typical for Central Asia; that image was made in Uzbekistan. Throughout Central Asia, manti are steamed and have this "complex" shape. The steamer has several typical regional names. At least one photo in a steamer is therefore necessary, either in the lede or in the text. You removed both. Your comments "it is not clear that it is manti - these are steamed dumplings, only etymology is the same" or "if you go to the store and ask for "manti" this is what you will get" show that you know basically only manti common in Turkey (or more generally former Ottoman Empire), and believe that these are "the real" manti. People in different regions can go to different shops and get different manti as shown on the different pictures. The current article gives an overview of the different styles, based on the same etymology, and treates them equally. The images are carefully chosen to support the current text and show most characteristic features for the regional varieties. If you disagree with this view, then start a discussion on splitting the article in several different ones (Turkish, Central Asian etc.), but do not try to enforce one style as "THE TRUE MANTI". --Off-shell (talk) 05:26, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

First, keep your comments to the article. I am using Oxford Companion to food as a reference, and it does not mention Uyghur manti. We have a separate article for mantou - what you are saying is WP:OR. Second, yes, Turkish manti are the most common - this is in part because they are mass produced and available like dried pasta. If you go into a store and ask for manti, that is what you will get. It's the difference between the spaghetti everyone eats, and pumpkin ravioli. Obviously, when you say "pasta" more people will think of spaghetti and meatballs then pumpkin ravioli. I am not trying to enforce any particular style, first I posted baked Armenian manti, then I posted Turkish manti - there are two possibilities here 1) You are abjectly incompetent or 2) You are not acting in good faith. I removed the steamer photo from the lede because it is a not high-quality enough to be a lede photo. Manti are most often served with yoghurt (Steamed, baked, boiled)- the finished and plated dish would be the best photo for the lede. But if you have an anti-turkish POV, at least the baked manti photo is clearly distinguishable from regular dumplings at first glance. I don't push stupid nationalist POV in food articles, but your edits are destructive to layout and content of the page. The lede photo should show a clear photo of the "dish" manti for readers who don't know anything about it - a picture of dumplings in a steamer does not do that. In fact, it is even more confusing. Seraphim System ^(talk) 05:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

1) Oxford Companion to Food gives a short summary on each topic. That something is not mentioned there does not mean that it is wrong or WP:OR. This Turkish source (included in the article) mentions that the earliest known description of manti was given by an Uyghur doctor in China in 1330.

2) Pumpkin is a common type of filling for Central Asian manti, see Oxford Companion to Food. So the previously shown kawa manta is a common type there. I wonder, if you read this source, why did you miss that and replaced the photo with pumpkin filling?

3) When you say "Turkish manti are the most common", the question is "in which country"? For people living in Central Asia, Xinjang, and all Post-Soviet states (except parts of Caucasus, Russian etc. adopted manti from Central Asia), in total several hundred million people), the most common type is the big steamed manti Central Asian style (Uzbek, Uyghur, Kazakh etc). Just to illustrate this: use Russian word манты to search for images in Google: here. And here is an example of what you get as mass-produced packed frozen manti in a typical shop in Central Asia or in Russia.

4) Concerning the picture in the lede. You accuse me of bad faith, why? I have no personal relation to the steamed manti photo, nor I have any preference for a particular style of manti. I found the photo of Afghan manti OK, because it was kind of "in the middle" between the Turkish and the Central Asian ones. They are smaller than Uzbek ones, but steamed. The picture quality is also very good. The photo of Armenian manti which you chose for the lede also does not show the final dish: they are cooked but not yet served on the plate, no sauce etc. So the issue is: whatever picture one chooses for the lede, it will not cover the different styles common in the different regions. So one either needs a gallery or a collage for the infobox. Instead I propose the following solution: remove the picture completely from the infobox and leave a proper comment for future editors in there. Note, that such a decision was made in similar cases elsewhere, e.g. pages on ethnic groups do not show any photo in the infobox.

5) To reduce clutter in the text, I put the pictures for each section in a small gallery at the end of the section. There are pages using this style. Any objections? --Off-shell (talk) 22:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

• 1)I have since sourced Uyghurs to an additional independent source and added the photo, so this is not an issue.
• 2)That link is a dead end and I don't read German.
• 3)Who cares? Here in America, turkish packaged manti is available at some supermarkets that carry international foods. How do you know what it most common for people living in Xinjiang? I knew a family from Xinjiang who made the smaller Turkish manti. I've known many Uzbek women who make both small and large manti, they have told me about how they eat manti, with chicken broth or tomato soup. No one except you would dispute that Kayseri manti is the superior product and that Kayseri is famous for its manti. To make Kayseri manti the dough must be extremely thin. It is extremely labor intensive, and not a daily meal. This is not offensive to anyone but you.
• 4)I first posted Armenian manti. You accused me of changing the lede photo because I was motivated by Turkish nationalism. You are either extremely ignorant or those particular comments were not made in good faith.
• 5)I think this is ok for now. Seraphim System ^(talk) 04:51, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, just a comment to item 3). Wikipedia pages must represent the world-wide view of the subject (WP:WORLDVIEW). As an example with Google search, I showed that in the Russian-speaking countries, the Central Asian style is dominant. But even focusing on the US, as far as I know manti is not "main stream" food in the US. As you write, Turkish-style manti is available in some shops offering international style food. But some other shops offer Central Asian style manti. Just to check I searched for dumpling manti usa in Google images. I see many different styles, big and small. So far I see no evidence that one particular style is dominant in the US. And in any case there is no style dominant all over the world. All major overview sources used in the article describe the different regional versions on an equal footing. --Off-shell (talk) 06:23, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

That's fine, but there's nothing wrong with putting the ideal version the lede photo. It shouldn't matter which country it is from. But we don't really have a good photo of kayseri manti - the picture we have is the dried kind. The thinner the dough and the smaller the dumplings, the more masterful is the cook. Seraphim System ^(talk) 07:09, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Manti

Alternative names	Mantu
Type	Dumpling
Created by	Disputed
Main ingredients	Spiced meat (lamb or ground beef)
Ingredients generally used	Yogurt, Garlic

This is the ideal in the tradition of Kayseri manti. Other regions have different traditions and ideals. Some of them prefer very large manti, although they surely could make them smaller. When they make small dumplings, they call them e.g. chuchvara. Thus, the ideal is not the same everywhere.

Alternatively, one can make a gallery like e.g. in South Asian sweets. But one should not put the same images twice in the article. We would need further pictures, one for each major style. Something like I put here on the right: one for big and steamed manti, and one for small and boiled ones. --Off-shell (talk) 12:15, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I think the infobox is a good idea. Seraphim System ^(talk) 13:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, I've put it on the page. --Off-shell (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Central Asian Manti is different

Please, split Anatolian Turkish manti with Central Asian manti. Because Turkish manti are like Russian pelmeni or Uzbek chuchvara which are boiled in water to be cooked. Unlike Central Asian manti, which requires a multi-layer steam pot to prepare the food. It will be wise decision to put, Uzbek chuchvara, Russian pelmeni and Turkish manti into one category. Because they are exactly the same food, that's boiled and shaped to similar small forms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.14.54.2 (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Pelmeni and chuchvara are certainly much different than the mantı I'm used to around here. Let's not jump into conclusions and lump different cuisines/cultures together, eh? --Foora (talk) 17:10, 2 February 2020 (UTC)Foora

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Possible improper tone and personal notes from a local

A popular type of Turkish manti is known as Kayseri mantisi, originally from Kayseri, an Anatolian city. Kayseri mantisi is tiny and served with yoghurt, melted butter (flavored with Aleppo pepper) and seasoning including dry mint and Aleppo pepper flakes. It can also be served with the water or chicken broth it was boiled in, and often in Kayseri it is consumed as a soup prior to the main dish. In Kayseri, when a couple is engaged to be married, the mother of the groom visits the bride's house and during this visit the bride should prepare manti for her prospective mother-in-law. The smaller the manti dumplings are, the more skillful the bride is considered to be in the kitchen. Traditionally the dumplings prepared for the prospective mother-in law are supposed to be so small that 40 of them can be fit into one spoon. Manti may be made from shredded meat of quail, chicken or goose in some regions of Turkey, while boş mantı ("empty dumpling") lack filling entirely.

The section in bold seems to not only lack a proper source, but also clutter the page with out-of-place information. It could definitely use a touch-up in terms of tone. The Turkish word for the dish, given in italics, should rather be written with an ı character instead (Kayseri mantısı).

I also have a few personal things to note about this page, they're far from an objective judgement as you'd expect but I'd rather let a future editor know. I'm from Kayseri, having had my fair share of the dish, born and raised in Turkey. This is the first time I've read of mantı being cooked in or served with chicken broth. As for baking, while it does exist, it certainly isn't very common. These traditions the page talks about regarding mantı are quite foreign to me. As for tatar böreği, I wouldn't consider it a similar dish to the mantı I'm familiar with to be perfectly honest. --Foora (talk) 18:16, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

== Proposed merge of Tatar böreği into Manti (food) ==

There is a tatar borek in Oxford Symposium work [3] larger, like pierogi/piruhi, but called tatar borek when filled with meat. These are not served with yogurt, according to Oxford Symposium. The term is also in use for manti (served with yogurt, see the cited sources for Tatar böreği). Is the yogurt version the same dish as manti? Spudlace (talk) 21:40, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Oppose merge. As far as I understand there are several varieties which can be have this name. In particular, one widespread version consists of flat dough pieces, not parcels. They are topped (not filled) with ground meat. And served with yogurt. I think these are not classified as manti. Please look at these pages:

• Turkish Tatar böreği
• Armenian Tatar boraki

Note that there are also baked versions of manti, which are boat- or flower-shaped. They are sometimes called boraki in Armenia (here is a Russian reference, p. 325) or simply Armenian manti (s. Oxford Symposium work [4], Appendix, page 155). In Turkey the are called fırın mantı("baked manti", s. Oxford Symposium work [5], Appendix, page 152). Please look at these pages:

• Armenian manti
• Armenian boraki
• Here are some images:

• 
  Baked manti
• 
  Boraki (different from Tatar boraki)

To add even more confusion to that, there is a dish called Hingel (also hingal or khinkal). It is common in some regions of Turkey and in many Caucasian ethnic cuisines. It also has versions which are sometimes classified as manti. In particular, there is a potato-filled version called Sivas mantisi in Turkey. But there is another version of hingel consisting of plain dough pieces without filling. Here are some images of the latter:

• 
  Hingal in Azerbaijan
• 
  Hingal in Azerbaijan
• 
  Khinkal in Dagestan (Russia)

These look pretty similar to the Tatar böreği mentioned above.

So it looks like there are many regional names for the same dishes, but they are also used for quite different dishes. --Off-shell (talk) 10:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I see. This is a helpful start for anyone inclined to develop the article. The current version of the article describes a dish served with yogurt and the Oxford Symposium source describes a dish filled with meat that is larger than manti and served without yogurt (describing also the flower shape of baked manti and half-moon shapes that are rarely seen outside the Caucasian and Georgian communities). Spudlace (talk) 18:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Caveat on Interpreting Source with Suggestion

" While the Chinese word mantou has been suggested as the origin for the word manti, different Chinese characters have been used to address same food in the past which indicates the Chinese attempted to adapt a foreign word to their writing system.[2] "

The source cited is The Oxford Companion to Food (3rd ed.) by Davidson. The source states, "There's no solid evidence that the Chinese word has foreign origins" in one section, and "Mantou is the Chinese reflex of a word known all over Asia... It is almost certainly Turkic." The former suggests an origin within China, the latter among Turkic peoples. Perhaps the phrase can better reflect the ambiguity of origin, rather than taking a single approach aligned with the latter POV. Without further research and sourcing, we just won't know one way or the other.

The former is not well elaborated given the constraints of Google Books' previews. I'll do a simple exercise in reason. Having different names to refer to the same object through time is not a necessary or sufficient condition for that object to be foreign. For a country that is large, old, and linguistically diverse, one would not be surprised to find many cases of different words used to describe everyday objects either concurrently or through time. On the flip-side, obsolete words may be linguistic supporting evidence of a loaned object if they are backed up by other historicity, or by archaeology. I'm not aware of such corroborating evidence, but again, I cannot fully read the source because of a paywall.

Consider changing the sentence to (for example):

" Chinese mantou may be either the origin or a borrowing of the food known as Central Asian manti. [2]"

This way the sentence presents itself as crisp and concise - and eliminates the single-sided POV.

Facial (talk) 12:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)