Talk:Mantled howler/GA1

GA Review

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I enjoyed the last primate GAR review I did, so I signed up for this one too. Should be done by the weekend. Sasata (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Easy to read, some minor tweaks in prose suggested. A few things could be wikilinked, and a light copyedit would benefit the references. See comments.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c(OR):

   Mostly well-referenced, with a good proportion of secondary sources. A couple of specific citations are suggested.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Coverage seems broad.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b(appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images have appropriate licenses.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Pending improvements.

Another informative article on our monkey cousins. The nominator has addressed all reviewer comments, and it meets all GA criteria, so I am happy to promote it. Sasata (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments

• The lead looks good.
  • Thanks!

• Was wondering why you use the American spelling for color, but the British for behaviour? Not a complaint or anything, just curious.
  • I think that is a result of the collaborative process. I changed "behaviour" to "behavior", but I could change color to colour if that would be preferable. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "The brain of an adult Mantled Howler is about 55.1 g (1.94 oz)." This is your chance to tell us about the larger brain of its smaller White-Headed capuchin cousin :)
  • Didn't think of that, but did it now. :) Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• It would be cool to see what this hyoid bone looks like, any chance of finding a free picture? If not don't worry about it, just though it might enhance the educational value.
  • I didn't find a free picture. I didn't find anything on Commons. A Google search [[1]] shows a photo, but I don't think it is a free one. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "The Mantled Howler is native to Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua and Panama.[3] Its range includes most of Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama." It's not clear to me the distinction that's being made here. Is the text differentiating between its "native" habitat and its range, i.e. it is native to Mexico, Colombia, Ecuador, Guatemala, but its range isn't in these places? Please clarify.
  • I was trying to describe the extent of the range within each country. It is ubiquitous throughout Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama, but only occurs in specified parts of the other countries. I tried to reword to clarify. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• What is riverine? Wikilink evergreen forest
  • Wikilinked evergreen forest. I tried to reword riverine forest to clarify, but realized that although it is in the source, it doesn't really fit - i.e., riverine forests can be primary, secondary or evergreen, or various other types, including those listed, as long as the forest is along a river. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "However, affiliative associations between the capuchins and howlers do sometimes occur, mostly involving juveniles playing together; at other times the capuchins and howlers may feed in the same tree, apparently ignoring each other.[15]" I suggest the small tweak to join the two sentences and lose a dup citation.
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "It relies on leaves for much of its diet. Leaves make up between almost 50% and 75% of the Mantled Howler's diet."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "...since certain leaves of differentvarious species contain toxin levels toxins." Needs citation, or combine with the next sentence if sources are the same.
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• In the figure caption, is Pacific Dry Forest supposed to be all capitalized?
  • No Fixed. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "Like other species of howler monkeys, almost all individual Mantled Howlers..."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "It will also sometimes leap to get to another limb.[20]" Not sure why this fact needs to be cited (or even mentioned). Don't all monkeys do that? (forgive my primate ignorance if this is not the case)
  • I think it is worth stating. I'm not sure all primates do this, and some do it more than "sometimes". Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• Tweak: "The Mantled Howler utilises uses a wide range of other sounds vocalisations. These include,including barks, grunts, woofs, cackles and screeches."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "The Mantled Howler also uses non-vocal communication, such as . It engages in "urine rubbing" when in a distressful social situations."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "It marks its scent by rubbing its throat on branches." Interesting. Why the throat and not some more obviously stinky body part?"
  • I'm not sure. Maybe there is sweat on the throat from howling. The source does not explain and I didn't see references to this in other sources. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "The Mantled Howler is often indifferent to the presence of humans. However, when it is disturbed by people, it often express its irritation..." Change one of the 'often's for better flow.
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• Italicize Choloepus didactylus.
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "This opens the possibility suggests that other howlers, such as the Mantled Howler, may also use tools..."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "Adults invite mating by flicking their tongues." Curious to know if it is both sexes that do this.
  • Both sexes (although one of the sources only specifies males, the other specifies both sexes). I fixed this. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "... since males smell the females' genitals and taste their urine." This is urine the female has expelled on the ground somewhere, right?
  • I would assume urine that is caught in the trees rather than on the ground. There is no more information on this for the Mantled Howler in the source. Defler's book does describe something similar for a different howler species (p. 392), where he described males smelling the female's urine "by sticking their nose in the puddles of urine or in the stream". But it doesn't specify the method the male Mantled Howlers use to taste its females' urine. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• Tweak: "The gestational period is 186 days; births can occur at any time of year.[17]"
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "Females become sexually mature at 36 months, and males become sexually mature at 42 months."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "However, many infants do not reach sexual maturity; high ranking adults sometimes harass or kill the offspring of lower ranking monkeys to eliminate competition for their own offspring." Competition for what? Mates? Food? The upper-class lifestyle and privileges of the alpha-male?
  • Possibility of remaining with the group upon reaching maturity. I expanded on this in the article. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "If it survives infancy, the Mantled Howler's lifespan is typically is able to live to at least 25 years old."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "... conservation standpoint by the IUCN."
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• "... passing through the monkey's digestive tract appears to aid the germination of certain seeds. " Source?
  • Added. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• Wikilink subspecies in the taxonomy section.
  • Done. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• Any info about the derivation of the specific epithet palliata?
  • I did not find an explicit statement explaining why it was named A. palliata. But a pallium is a type of mantle, so I added that information. Not sure if I am bordering on OR with that though. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • You just gave some extra info, but didn't make conclusions, so it's ok (IMHO). Sasata (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• I saw a few copyediting issues in the references, e.g., double periods in refs 3, 6, 7, 22, 25, 26, 27; use of '&' instead of 'and' in refs 3 and 27; some journal citations have unnecessary month in the date, etc.
  • I think I fixed them all. But I am not always sure what the proper format is (e.g., when it is appropriate to use "&" rather than "and"). I should have caught those double periods after White-headed Capuchin though. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • The WP:MOS would be better able to answer your questions than me. For GA level, It's good enough that the formatting is consistent. Sasata (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• As Jack mentions below, images under section headers should be avoided. I think this can be fixed pretty easily in the Reproduction section, but understand it may be difficult for the Communication section. Is the stick-breaking picture necessary (does it illustrate anger?); if not perhaps consider removing it because it's the lowest resolution.
  • I am sure that monkey was annoyed, though whether it was due to the people watching it from below, or another group of howlers in the area, I am not sure (the photo of the howler howling was taken 2 minutes later and pretty clearly in response to competing howlers). But since I am not sure the cause of the stick breaking, I removed that picture and moved the howling one. I actually have video on my camcorder of both of these, but I have not been able to figure out how to get it into an appropriate format to load into Commons. I did not move the Reproduction photo, since that was under a == header rather than a ==== header, but I can try to move it if that is a problem too. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Once again, I think they are very helpful and improved the article. I addressed most of them and responded to the ones that I was not able to completely address. Rlendog (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Jack

Few general comments,

• The page should probably follow the page organisation here.
• Why is it compared to Geoffroy's Spider Monkey? Is it a type species?
• Image under 'Communication' should be right-aligned per WP:IMAGE.
• Are there too many references from The Natural History of Costa Rican Mammals? It's probably fine, just wondering.

Other than that the article is looking great, Jack (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• • Basically, the differences from the page organization shown is that I moved the taxonomy section down and the distribution and range section up. This organization seemed to flow better, as it seems that a lay reader would most likely be first interested in what it looks like and where it lives. And the taxonomy section is more specialized, which is why I put it at the end. This organization also seemed to work for other Central American monkeys, such as Central American Squirrel Monkey and White-headed Capuchin. But its easy enough to change if it is a problem.

    Fair enough, maybe this should be brought up at WP:PRIM? Jack (talk) 10:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I removed the spider monkey comparison. The reason for making the comparison was that Geoffroy's Spider Monkey is the largest sympatric monkey. But since that wasn't addressed in the body of the text, and it isn't really necessary, I removed it from the lead. Alternatively, I can restore it to the lead and note it in the body, if reviewers think it is valuable (although I may not have a ref explicitly stating the comparison, just the body size stats of the 2 species).

    It just seemed out of place in the lead, maybe elsewhere with your explanation of the reason for the comparison? Jack (talk) 10:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure about the image placement. I thought they were supposed to alternate positions to the extent possible and, more importantly, face the text. I am not finding either of these in the link, but I remember it being an issue during the Primate FAC. And it probably would not look right facing away from the text.

    You're right, I meant to link to MOS:IMAGE really. It recommends you don't have images immediately underneath subheadings, "Do not place left-aligned images directly below a subsection-level heading (=== or lower), as this sometimes disconnects the heading from the text that follows it. This can often be avoided by shifting left-aligned images down a paragraph or two." Jack (talk) 10:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

    • • I'm not sure there is a better place. I tried moving it down a bit, but that breaks up the first paragraph, which I don't think should be broken up. And the image works best next to that paragraph, since it describes howling. And for a howler monkey, howling really needs to be the first paragraph of the "communication" section. Rlendog (talk) 14:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
        • Another possible solution if the placement is a problem would be to make the "Communication" section a (==) level heading. For a howler monkey, that may be appropriate, although it would still be a short section. Rlendog (talk) 15:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • That source had a lot of good information readily available. Some of it overlaps other sources, so I could swap references if necessary, but I don't think it is.Rlendog (talk) 02:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)