Talk:Manuel Torres (diplomat)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: David Fuchs (talk · contribs) 16:47, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

{{doing}} Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:47, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

@David Fuchs: I have most of the article sources as PDFs, if you'd like check any you don't have access to. Kim Post (talk) 02:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for bearing with me. Overall, a pretty good article. Generally flows quite well. Comments on sections as follows:

• Prose:
  • Torres married and at San Carlos had a "a daughter whose death was one of the arrows which quickened the current of life".—is this just whenever his daughter died, or a specific timeframe? The wording makes it sound like she died in infancy or during birth or something. Given the later mention of the wife and daughter dying, feels like this is better mentioned later on.
    • Do we know the name of the wife?
      • Also to the point, any additional details about her? We get a mention later that she sent money to Torres, not sure if this was her own wealth or they're talking about proceeds from the plantation here. Also might be useful to explicitly mention he left her behind (I'm guessing there's no details as to why?)
      • Finally, how did the wife and child die? Were they killed by royalists?
  • Although President James Madison's administration officially recognized governments on neither side—this means they didn't recognize any of the governments, right? Should probably make more straightforward and say the administration "officially recognized no governments on either side".
  • In parallel to Torres in Philadelphia was a Baltimore group that included Vicente Pazos [es], Manuel Dorrego, José Agrelo [es] and Manuel Moreno, all from Buenos Aires. This line doesn't seem all that relevant to the Philly junta, nor the rest of the sentence. Any reason not to just axe this line and have the new paragraph start with the patriot propaganda bit that follows? The ones that are necessary can be mentioned later on where relevant.
  • commission to seize Amelia Island off the coast Florida—off the coast of Florida?
  • There's a general trend throughout the article to use "which" instead of "that", e.g. In what became known as the Amelia Island Affair, the new administration of President James Monroe denounced it as a hub of piracy and sent a force which captured the island in December., a source which could fill what he could not obtain from private merchants These examples are spots where restrictive clauses are being used and thus that is appropriate (as the sentence doesn't make sense without that material that follows the 'which'.) and should be adjusted accordingly.
  • The Philadelphia junta effectively disbanded because of the event, which Bolívar disavowed—Should probably disambiguate this as Simon Bolivar, as we mentioned his dead brother earlier and Simon hasn't been invoked in a while.
  • From December 1819 to April 1820 negotiated contracts worth $108,842.80 (equivalent to $2,659,000 in 2016[43] This is one of the few places you do inflation comparisons, and I think a) it'd be useful to do this in other places with large sums to contextualize it, and b) you can use {{Inflation}} to standardize this (it covers as far as the year 1800 so you can certainly use it for most of the article.)
  • Sources for Torres' life include his voluminous correspondence,[81] his published writing, newspaper articles, and Adams and Duane's memoirs. This isn't a complete paragraph, and I'm not sure how it fits in as a summary for the legacy section considering the following subtopics don't immediately address his published output. On that subject, it feels like it makes more sense to have the historiography section first since it squarely deals with his lack of notoriety in the accounts.
• Images:
  • I'm guessing there are no extant images of Torres, correct?
  • Most of the images look good, but File:SpringfieldModel1795.jpg really doesn't have enough source information to justify its PD licensing tag.
• References:
  • There are some spots where citations are unclear, specifically at the ends of paragraphs like Mier was likewise captured during the failed expedition. and {[xt|Venezuela and New Granada united on December 17, 1819, to form the Republic of Colombia (a union called Gran Colombia by historians).}} Even if the citation is to the next one listed, it's really best for clarity and verification to repeat the ref call.
  • Didn't realize one of my academic services had lapsed, so if you could send the main sources you used as offered that'd be great for verification purposes.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:05, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

• The details given in this article (i.e., very little) reflect what the sources have to say about Torres' family. Bowman's vague description is based on Duane's Visit to Colombia; her death is really the only thing Duane says about Torres' daughter. I've cut the quote, which perhaps is more confusing than informative. Domínguez Michael off-hand mentions Torres' wife "Mariquita" and multiple children living with him in Philadelphia, but it's one uncited sentence in a book about Servando Mier, and it seems to conflict with the narrative in more focused sources, hence why I only gave this as a footnote for the thorough reader. Bowman (1969) mentions one Sarah Torres as "a relative" and "one of his closest companions", but I don't know what to make of this, since he doesn't mention her anywhere else.
• The four places the {{inflation}} template is not already not used are the two losses he suffered (year unknown), his projected savings to the government (comparison to overall spending provides better context; I can try to find that if you agree), and the specific terms of one contract (given for the group of contracts later in the paragraph).
• To my historian's mind, it is logical to describe what primary source material exists before we can discuss how people have viewed it. Switching the subsections makes sense, but the plaque needs to be mentioned first because García makes a point about it; do you have a suggestion for that?
• I am not aware of any images of Torres, but nor have I seen it stated that no images exist. On reconsideration, the image of the musket is only decorative and I've removed it. (Your comments have been addressed if not mentioned.)

Kim Post (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• • Perhaps the best strategy would be remove the subsections entirely and just recast it as a 'legacy' section in aggregate? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 22:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
    • I've done this and reorganized it on a generally chronological basis—overall I'm happy with the outcome. It does highlight the lack of the article's coverage before 1924, but as far as I can tell the modern scholarship essentially starts in the '20s. (I guess we should soon specifying 1920s.) I have not been able to find R. Dana Skinner's work, and there might be more in newspapers or Spanish-language sources, but I don't have easy access to those at the moment. Kim Post (talk) 04:51, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
      • Yep, I think this works better. I'll take a look at the sources you sent today and tomorrow to spot-check the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:56, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
        • Did a spot check of statements attributed to the sources you sent, and didn't spot issues with plagiarism or references. Passing as GA. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:16, 25 January 2019 (UTC)