Talk:Marc Overmars

Untitled

Will he play Dennis Bergkamp testimonial ? ... I love to see them play together again -- 172.179.45.74 08:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Marc Overmars/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cloudz679 (talk · contribs) 13:15, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

• I will review this article. C679 13:15, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Starting with a few things regarding the lead, more detailed review to follow:

• ref for pronunciation
• no comma before who in the first line
• Director of football should not be capitalised
• harboured a love for football - prose
• secured a place in his first team - his team?
• stay at the club was also short - also?
• several of its emerging talent - talent is uncountable, cannot be used with "several"
• this made him the most expensive transfer - prose
• "His stay at the club was unsuccessful as Barcelona failed to win silverware and they were hindered by numerous managerial changes. " - seems to be more about the club than the player, contains POV
• "Overmars remains the youngest player to have earnt 50 caps for the Netherlands." many younger players have earnt 50 caps, clarify. link "cap"
• The lead contains over-detailed information for a section which should be "a summary of its most important aspects" per MOS:LEAD.

C679 08:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Dutch clubs sections

• What are "GCEs"?
• What does "ƒ500,000" mean?
• One-and-a-half sentences for Go Ahead Eagles and two half-sentences for Willem II are unacceptably short.
  • I understand, but going by WP:GACN, size and comprehensiveness shouldn't be an issue here. There's very little written about Overmars's early playing career; I found nothing of note perusing through Dutch sources.
• "Both clubs settled on a transfer fee of ƒ2.5 million, after Ajax's initial bid of ƒ1.5 million had stalled the move." use plain English
• "Ajax finished the camapign third in the league; their form in the final few months was "maddening ... one week crushing eventual champions Feyenoord 5–0, the next dropping points to minnows like MVV Maastricht."" the quote seems to be unnecessarily long, POV-soaked, unattributed and contains a spelling mistake.
  • Attributed POV to David Winner.
• "His goals helped Ajax regain the league after a three-year wait" use plain English
• "When later informed of Manchester United's interest" when?

• Not addressed. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Edited the sentence.

• "had tore" grammar
• "Ajax played a second consecutive Champions League final in May 1996, but lost to Juventus by a penalty shoot-out.[22] They did however retain the league for a third season." losing focus on the player here
  • Yes, but I don't see the harm of including this. The reader may want to note how Overmars's injury affected the team.
• "The club lost several players, and reinvested poorly" seems to be POV
• "exhausted because of the short summer break" readers would benefit from greater context
• "£5 million" link currency
• "His only goal of the latter competition came against Bayern Munich at the semi-final stage." this is quite negative, why not use standard wording?

C679 12:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Arsenal section

• "Overmars up until this point was subject to criticism from commentators and fans; Wenger emphasised that this was his first year in England and aged 24, there was room for improvement." prose
• "Arsenal made ground on league leaders Manchester United by the time both clubs played each other at Old Trafford in March 1998." use plain English, grammar

• "Closed in" is still not plain English. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• "Caught up"?

• "Overmars was a constant threat in the match and scored in the 80th minute; he latched onto a header by Anelka, ran with the ball and managed to flick it beyond the goalkeeper, Peter Schmeichel." prose
• "Arsenal held on to win" prose
• "All Europe thought Overmars was dead because of his damaged knee, but in every important game we have had this season, he has scored. He has got great mental strength. He is a world-class player." needs quote marks
• "he scored against Manchester United in the 1998 FA Charity Shield and in the team's opening game of the season, at home to Nottingham Forest." appears to be contradictory, clarify
• "Arsenal during the campaign participated in the Champions League, but their time in the competition was short-lived" prose
• "Arsenal went on to win the replayed match 2–1, where the opening goal was "scored inevitably perhaps, by Marc Overmars."" there doesn't seem to be a need to use a quote here
• "Manchester United, who also pipped them to win the league." prose
• Information about the 1999-2000 season is strange with a summary followed by very limited detail, the other sections seem to follow a chronological order so try to do the same here, and add extra information as available
  • That's because Overmars did nothing of note.

• Highbeam has 795 articles between 1 Jul 1999 - 30 Jun 2000 matching "overmars football". "nothing of note" is not really a fair reflection of that, I feel. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Beefed the section up.

C679 17:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Barcelona section

• what does "concretised" mean? reword
• "the most expensive transfer in Dutch football history" same comment as per earlier (lead section)
• "By coincidence Overmars made his debut for Barcelona against Arsenal" how do we know it was a coincidence and not arranged as part of a transfer deal?
• "He lasted no more than 45 minutes" prose
• "His performance in the match started off well, then faded before coming back in the second half, opined Andrés Astruells in El Mundo Deportivo." what does this add to the article?
  • Readers may want to know how he faired in his debut match from a Spanish media POV.
• link "dribbling"
• "Barcelona reached the semi-final stage of the UEFA Cup in April 2001, but did not advance any further in the competition after defeat to Liverpool." bloated sentence
• "Serra Ferrer was sacked a week after" later
• "As the season drew to a close, Overmars turned into an influential player for Barcelona. Sid Lowe labelled him as "Barça's only decent player in recent weeks" and was surprised he started on the bench against Real Valladolid in June 2001." POV, what does this section really add to the article?
  • Well he scored the equaliser in the match. Plus it builds up nicely to how Barcelona ended the season; without that point they wouldn't have secured a Champions League place the following season.

. Which underlines his importance to the team.

• "Petit left the club to join Chelsea before the season commenced, as he found his first team opportunities limited." had found
• "did not play for Barcelona until a month after" for a month
• "Compared to the previous season, Overmars was used more sparingly in matches. Rexach had changed the team's formation to accommodate new signing Javier Saviola and promoted Xavi as a first-team regular." original research?
  • Added ref.
• "the manager of Galatasaray complemented Overmars afterwards" complimented
• "He encouraged an expansive style of play and freshened up the team with minimal changes; for instance he switched Overmars from a left winger to a right one." prose, lack of focus

• Not addressed. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• "Overmars teared a muscle" grammar
• There doesn't seem to be much relevant content for the 2003/04 season, focus is lacking

• Not addressed. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Added a bit more.

• "give defender George Ogararu a tough time defending" prose
• "Overmars's comeback lasted only one season as his knee continued to give him discomfort." ref
• Overmars's or Overmars'? Both are used in the article, one should be used for consistency. See Apostrophe#Possessive apostrophe.
• "Radomir Antić stepped in as manager" prose

International

• Three paragraphs is awfully short for an 11-year international career. In particular I wonder about his representation of the under-21s, which is completely absent.
  • Could find nothing about his under 21 career.
• "steering the ball home" prose
• "manager of the Netherlands was complementary" complimentary, again
• "comeback for the Netherlands, who were 2–0 down after 24 minutes" had been
• "His performances led him to be named the best young player of the 1994 World Cup" link to FIFA World Cup awards#Best Young Player Award
• partaker - use plain English

C679 18:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Remaining prose-related issues

• "Although he made his career as a winger, at Arsenal Wenger was tempted to position him as a striker after a good cameo: "It could happen that Marc plays up front. I am sure that he would be a very good striker because of the runs he makes."" this is an 11-minute appearance as a striker and inclusion of such material does not result in a balanced article
• "Overmars became director of football at Ajax in June 2012." and did what exactly in the following (almost) two years?
  • Nothing of note.
• "In part with his father Ben and brother Edwin, he runs a car restoration service" prose
• "The family business, Overmars Vastgoed bv was founded in the 1990s" is this the same family business discussed in the previous sentence?
• "In 2002, Overmars appeared in the Quote 500 richest Netherlanders list for the first time, at number 441." that's quite some time ago. Did he feature in later editions of the list?
  • Hard to find a recent list.
• Honours don't appear to be referenced.
  • Not sure why his honours need to be referenced, when his achievements have been cited in his playing career section.

• Honours including European Super Cup, Intercontinental Cup and Dutch Football Talent of the Year are not mentioned in the prose but appear in the honours section. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Cited.

• finishing 12th in a fan vote is not spectacular, why is it listed alongside real achivements?
• Career statistics are sourced to Soccerbase, although Soccerbase says he played 343 league matches and the article mentions 398, 17 cup vs 36, and other inconsistencies

• The soccerbase ref has been replaced, although the "ronaldzwiers" site lists 77 league goals and the "footballdatabase" one 75. Article happens to list 78. If sources are wrong, or partially wrong, this should be clarified. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• The international goals section uses a number of different references but you could just uniformly use fn94, I am unsure why it hasn't been used.

• Not addressed. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Because that ref doesn't show which teams he scored against.

• Why is "score" included alongside "result" in the international goals section?

• Not addressed. What is the rationale for including "score"? C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Removed.

• Images are somewhat irrelevant, e.g. Laporta. Petit to a lesser extent too. Do any free images of the player himself exist?
  • Removed the Laporta image, but kept the Petit one. There aren't any free images of/related to him on the Commons, except the one with his shirt in the museum.

C679 18:18, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Referencing etc - club career only

• fn 21 and 67 are in a registration-only section of the internet. The best course of action would be to find free equivalents, or failing that, list the links as "subscription required" with the appropriate template
• Foreign-language references are not consistently tagged. It would be helpful if they were.

• Outstanding untagged references. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Not sure what you mean by this. Foreign-language references just have to have a language and trans_title parameter as far as I'm aware.

• "He also attributed his pace to his mother: "She was quick but, being a farmer, had no time for sports."[1]" the wording is very close to the original (obviously the first part, being the issue here)
• fn35 - Wilson, Paul (15 March 1998). "Overmars, overjoyed and not over yet". The Observer (London). Retrieved 23 January 2014. Note: The following article was republished on theguardian.com on 16 February 1999 - what "following article" is being referred to here?
• "Overmars cost £25 million, making him the most expensive transfer in Dutch football history.[53]" reference only supports the first half of this sentence
• "Overmars was delighted with the move: "I can't wait to pull on the famous shirt and play my first game. I certainly intend to make history at the Nou Camp."[53]" This quote should be handled correctly
• "He lasted no more than 45 minutes after sustaining a knee injury.[56]" prose has been questioned above, but reference mentions ankle and not knee
• "by February 2001, it looked unlikely that Lorenzo Serra Ferrer would remain as manager of the club.[59]" this is not very well put across, it's only the opinion of one person, WP:WEASEL
  • Made it clear it was the opinion of Sid Lowe. The sentence follows on nicely to Barcelona's draw, which Overmars had an impact on.
• fn 62 should use the original title
• "came after 26 uninterrupted passes.[69]" ref says 29
• fn 74 says it's from 19 Feb 2002 but when I click it, it tells me 18 June 2001 - possibly wrong url
• fn 75 seems to include two references, split them
• "left Barcelona without recompense, in spite of having a year remaining on his contract.[87]" wording is too close to the original

• Still feel this is too close to the original. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• How about 'compensation'?

• "In July 2008, Overmars played in Jaap Stam's testimonial match alongside his former team-mates against Ajax.[88]" link not working. also unclear whose team-mates

Referencing - remaining sections

• "He did not participate in the tournament as he was recuperating from his knee ligament injury." +ref
• "he remains the youngest player to achieve such a feat as of 2014.[102]" reference doesn't support this, plus it's from his own website, so a replacement needs to be found
• what makes http://www.ajaxinside.nl a reliable source?
  • Replaced
• "Former teammate Petit said his strength was getting the ball past his marker and running past to deliver crosses.[111]" not sure if this is supposed to be paraphrasing of the Mirror article, but it fails
• "He has achieved everything as a footballer and has a good vision of the game and the club. The board needs someone with a solid football background."[115]" doesn't seem to fully reflect the comments

• Not addressed. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• "citing: "I have been active on a voluntary basis at the club for seven years. That's a big time in my life."[117]" to cite is to mention something as a reason, not the correct word here.
• "He announced he was to leave his technical post at Go Ahead Eagles at the end of the 2011–12 season, citing: "I have been active on a voluntary basis at the club for seven years. That's a big time in my life."[117] The course of action was in part down to the club's disappointing league form: "It has certainly accelerated my decision that we are not where we want to be this year."[117]" use of direct quotes when paraphrasing would be preferable. also ambiguous, what was "at the end of the season"? leaving or announcing?
• "The couple have two sons: Frenkie and Nick, both of whom are footballers.[120]" worth mentioning per fn120 that they had lived together for almost 20 years and already had the children prior to the wedding..
• fn 121 not working

Summary

All of the criteria aside from stability need some work, as detailed above. Review on hold to allow changes to be made. C679 19:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

• Many thanks for your throrough review. I've made changes based on your suggestions and have commented on certain points. I'm not sure how this article can be anymore comprehensive, using native sources and not having to list everytime he scored a goal. It doesn't help that Overmars has no authorised autobiography, which would fill in some gaps -- particularly his early career. Lemonade51 (talk) 11:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• For a player who appeared in four major tournaments in an international career which spanned 12 years and involved 86 appearances, I think more information should appear in order to meet criteria 3 (broad in its coverage). Counting, I see two sentences for WC94, three sentences for WC98, two for Euro 2000 and just a single sentence for EURO 2004. Plenty of English-language sources exist covering major international tournaments, even in those in the 1990s, so this kind of expansion should be within the realms of possibility. If you need help locating references, please let me know and I will give you some online sources. Thanks, C679 15:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• Right, have expanded the international section twofold. Lemonade51 (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• Good job, there are a few things I have specifically detailed above for action, and I haven't read the new international section, but otherwise the review is in good shape. C679 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
• Think I've covered all your points now. Lemonade51 (talk) 10:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

• Club expansions are fine, all outstanding points satisfactorily addressed, aside from the foreign-language tagging on fn6 and fn26. International section looks good after some minor copyediting. Just the statistics to check now. C679 11:16, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

• Tagged the refs, cheers. Lemonade51 (talk) 11:29, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

• Statistics look a little problematic still. Infobox says 102 appearances for Ajax but the total in the stats section for Ajax league matches is 136. The main reference for league matches appears to be a self-published website. Arsenal stats for matches appear to have discrepancies. source for 98/99 lists 6+1 cup games, which I assume to be 7, but our article states 6. the 99/00 season should show 14 apps, 5 goals for Europe if I understand the source correctly. The 97/98 figures should show 12 (4) for the cup and not the current 11 (4), if the source is correct. Ajax stats from footballdatabase.eu seem to differ from those on the article, e.g. 92/93 cup - Wiki: 5(4), source: 4(3)… 93/94 cup 4(0) / 5(1)… 95/96 cup 0(0) / 1(0). European appearance data is also different. C679 18:14, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

• The plus sign denotes appearances as a substitute. So in 1998-99, Overmars started 6 cup games and came on in one match, but we're really only interested in the former number. As for the Ajax stats, my friend happened to have a copy of the club's centenary book which contains comprehensive match and player statistics. Cited the Ajax row with the appropriate page number. Used National Football Teams for league appearances. Lemonade51 (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

• Disagree. Appearances as a substitute are still appearances. If he started six games and played in another as a sub, that's seven appearances. C679 05:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

• Tidied up. Used National Football Teams for GAE and Willem league statistics only. Ajax book says he played 28 games in 94/95, whereas they say 27, so I'm inclined to follow the former source. Lemonade51 (talk) 09:36, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

• Dutch and Spanish stats now ok. There still appears to be a discrepancy in the Arsenal figures though. I made my own calculations but you may like to check: 97/98 total should be 46 (16); 98/99 cup should be 7(4), total is correct; final totals for cup should therefore read 43 (15), total total 537 (105). C679 12:08, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

• You're right, have made corrections. Lemonade51 (talk) 13:33, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks, everything is now looking very smooth and this article can be awarded GA status. Thanks for all your contributions. C679 13:48, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

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