Talk:Maria Komnene, Queen of Jerusalem

Untitled

I've removed the description, about her "being no beauty": the sentence was directly lifted from Payne's popular work The Dream and the Tomb, and I've seen no primary source for it - in fact, I've never seen a contemporary or near-contemporary physical description of her. (I do wonder if Payne had confused her with the other Maria Comnena?) Must admit I'm somewhat concerned about the use of Payne (and, even worse, Reston!) by some contributors. Silverwhistle 09:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I revised the statement that her brother Alexios (this is Alexios pinkernes, I take it) was briefly Emperor of Thessalonica. He claimed to be Byzantine emperor, according to Nicetas (p. 319 van Dieten), but that's not the same as setting up a separate state of Thessalonica and being recognised as emperor of it. However, if some other source says he did that, please remove my alteration! User:Andrew Dalby 19:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 02:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Detail of a 13th-century French miniature

• ... that Queen Maria Comnena (pictured) abducted her daughter and coerced her into divorcing to place her on the throne of Jerusalem?
  Source: "Maria Comnena and a group of nobles ... abducted her ... Maria set out to persuade her to agree to be parted from Humphrey." (Riley-Smith 1973)
  • ALT1:... that through scheming and ruthlessness Maria Comnena (pictured) went from a powerless queen to a political leader and kingmaker?
  • ALT2:... that the account of Saladin receiving banquet dishes in return for not bombarding royal newlyweds besieged at Kerak probably comes from the bride's mother, Queen Maria Comnena (pictured)?
    Source: "The most vivid account of the siege is that of Ernoul, which probably derives from the bride’s mother, Maria Comnena, wife of Ernoul’s patron, Balian of Ibelin. This relates how, when the siege began, Stephanie de Milly sent food to Saladin from the wedding banquet, and he courteously instructed his engineers not to range their mangonels on the tower in which the bride and groom were lodged." (Hamilton 2005)

• Reviewed: Bicellariella ciliata
• Comment: The image is the highest resolution miniature reproduction I have seen, and it offers an opportunity to have a woman depicted on the Main Page. ALT2 is arguably the most interesting hook, but the first two hooks focus more on the subject. I also hope that the expansion or GA promotion of another article (e.g. Stephanie of Milly or Siege of Kerak) might provide a more apt opportunity for ALT2. I am offering it here in case a fault is found in the first two hooks.

5x expanded by Surtsicna (talk). Self-nominated at 21:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC).

• Hi there Surtsicna, I will be going over your article and will report back shortly. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: You refer many times in the article to (Hamilton 2000), (Runciman 1999), (Hodgson 2007), (Riley-Smith 1973), these works aren't in the bibliography list. Please fix this first. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:46, 2 August 2021 (UTC) el.ziade (talkallam) 09:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I have fixed that embarrassing bibliography blunder. Surtsicna (talk) 12:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

el.ziade, the issue has been addressed. Surtsicna (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Surtsicna The article is interesting, as is the hook. It is clear, neutral, and free from copyvio. I don't have any comments concerning the image. It took me some time to go through the entire article because I have conducted a thorough, almost line by line source review. Congratulations on your thorough work. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P1

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Maria Komnene, Queen of Jerusalem/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Surtsicna (talk · contribs) 21:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 20:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Will take this on in the following days. Constantine ✍ 20:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Well written, with a clear and succinct prose style. References are to scholarly sources of a high standard. Some comments:

• The Egyptian ruler Saladin this is a common trope, but not really accurate; Saladin ruled over both Egypt and Syria.

Describing a ruler of Egypt and Syria as an Egyptian ruler does not seem inaccurate to me, but I will gladly humor you :D Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• The name of her mother is unknown (Varzos, Vol. B, pp. 143–144); per Byzantine custom it would be very unlikely if it was Maria, as children were usually named after their grandparents and almost never had the same name as one of their parents.

Extremely unlikely. Indeed, the name of her mother was removed during the expansion but snuck back in. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Enclose the Greek title protosebastos in {{transl|grc|}} per MOS

Huh. Never knew about that. Done. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Suggest adding regnal dates to the various rulers and potentates (such as popes) to help the reader.

That, I think, would call for sources verifying those dates, and I think that any such dates that are helpful to the reader should be stated in prose anyway. E.g. Amalric becoming king in 1163 is relevant; Baldwin III becoming king in 1143 much less so. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I rather disagree: Amalric and Manuel coming to the throne in the same year for example shows that they were likely of the same generation and likely had a long history of interactions since then. I generally find regnal dates useful myself, and they are fairly typical in scholarly literature too. I've also never encountered the requirement that regnal dates should be independently verified, not even in FA reviews. I will not insist, however, as indeed the relevant dates are mentioned, and the article is well written enough that it doesn't need the extra context. Constantine ✍ 20:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• {{green|Wishing to restore the alliance with the powerful Byzantine Empire}} a little context on why this alliance was disturbed?

I think the disturbance is well-explained: Baldwin III died. What we lacked is the explicit statement on how the alliance had been forged in the first place. A reader might not pick up on it being through Theodora and Baldwin's marriage. Thanks. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Muslim sultan is that not somewhat redundant? Sultan by definition means Muslim.

It is redundant, but I do not think we can expect an average reader to know the definition. It is vital to establish a religious context here, though I suppose it can be done with "Muslim ruler" too if the redundancy is too disagreeable. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Link the Siege of Jerusalem (1187) in the main article as well (e.g. at besieging the capital).

Done. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• After besieging the capital, Saladin arranged for Maria, her children, household, and possessions to be escorted to Tyre.[64] Jerusalem fell on 2 October. Does this mean Maria left the city before it capitulated?

The chronology of the story suggests so, but it is not explicitly stated. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Suggest adding also a map of the pre-1187 kingdom, which shows places like Kerak or Nablus.

That would be very helpful in many articles, but I do not see any such map on the Commons. I would request it at WP:Graphics Lab/Map workshop but I do not have any RS to offer them. Surtsicna (talk)

I understand. I certainly won't hold up a GA nomination for this, but you could use another expedient, like [Fatimid_invasion_of_Egypt_(914–915)#Invasion_of_Egypt this]. Constantine ✍ 20:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• Hamilton 2016 is cited but not listed in the reference section.

Done. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Please provide ISBN for Riley-Smith 1973.

Done. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• There is very heavy reliance on Hamilton 2000 in the article. Per se this may not be a problem, especially for the narrative parts of the article, but I have to ask whether other sources were considered.

They were. For example, in the Ibelin alliance section, Hamilton's view is contrasted with Runciman's. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• In the section on judgments on her character, I would recommend adding other scholars' views as well, if they exist.

I have not been able to find any that go deeper than the "Greek filth" description other than Hamilton, and even he does not dispute much of it. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Spotcheck in Hamilton 2000 p. 106 for #28 does not exactly cover the statement in the article that [Saladin] had encircled the crusader states during Raymond's regency. It can be inferred, but in the source it is not presented as fait accompli. Other spotchecks check out fine.

Changed to "who had become a threat to the crusader states". It should be clearer to the average reader. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That's it for now, will do a second pass after the above is taken care of. A very good article, which presents the Byzantine politics of Jerusalem and Maria's role in them clearly and understandably. Constantine ✍ 15:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Constantine. I am looking forward to more. Surtsicna (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Some final comments, or suggestions rather, in a really desperate effort to find something

• Is the redlinked Cathedral of Tyre the same as it:Cattedrale Crociata di Tiro? Would be a case for using the Template:Interlanguage link.
• The fate of her children with Balian, apart from John, is left unclear; there are links for three of them, but otherwise they are not mentioned. Would her daughter Margaret warrant a redlink?
• I hit upon this during a second round of spotchecks: Gerish makes a very interesting point that William of Tyre does not mention Maria at all as queen consort after her marriage as a sign of her lack of authority. This might be interesting to add.
• A couple of possible points of interest to mention to give some context:
  • Maria's father John was a favourite of Manuel, who had semi-adopted him after he was orphaned and had him as a close confidante ever after. But for his death in 1176 John would in all likelihood have been the chosen regent for Alexios II. So Maria was not just the daughter of one of the many Komnenian princes, but of someone most intimately connected to the emperor; not a small catch for Amalric.
  • On Maria's enmity with Raynald of Chatillon it may also be relevant that Raynald had invaded Cyprus while Maria's father was governor there, defeated and took Maria's father prisoner, and left a terrible impression with vile atrocities against the populace. For the Byzantines Raynald was very much an object of hatred after that, as shown by Manuel's deliberate humilitation of him in 1159. It is thus not unreasonable to assume that Maria added a personal enmity to the political rivalry with Raynald.

That's all. Constantine ✍ 20:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)