Talk:Marie Bashkirtseff

Nationality

Can someone explain in what sense was she an Ukrainian? Did she have a Ukrainian passport, i.e. had Ukrainian nationality, or perhaps by some chance considered herself to be a Ukrainian. I found absolutely no evidence of her Ukrainian nationality, none whatsoever, surely it has nothing to do with the borders of today's state of Ukraine, because if that were the case that would make absolutely no sense, it is as if someone was born in the 19th century Palestine would be now labeled an Israeli. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.228.13.196 (talk) 16:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I bet, can someone explain in what sense was she an feminist? She has some anti-men sexist sentiments, but this crap is not considered feminist in western world as far as i knowAnnaRedko89 (talk) 02:35, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Well idk, wearing and loving her cultural clothing is not enough for you seems 2001:4BB8:182:9562:2511:808A:19ED:D7B5 (talk) 13:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Poltava region was occupied by Russia in 19th century. Even being occupied, it is stil stays Ukrainian territory, and not become “historical Russian” territory, as putin and majority of Russians like to claim. 83.128.163.6 (talk) 08:01, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Untitled

Perhaps someone can clarify the conflicting information on her birth/death dates. I have also: born on November 24 1858 - died October 31 1884, a few days before her 26th birthday.

--Irukan 18:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC) Most probably the reason of contraversion is differences in old and new calendar styles ( Old_style )in Russia. Marie Bashkirtseff was born in Ukraine, but live most of her life in Europe, thus some dates of her life can be in European or Russian styles

--Irukan 18:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)To prevent any further changes of year of birth:

Untill recently accepted date of her birth was 11 [Nov. 23, New Style], 1860.

But after discovery of original manuscript of her diary in Bibliotheque Nationale, France, it was found, that well known Diary of Marie Bashkirtseff was abridged and censored by her family. Year of birth (1860 instead 1858) was also falsified by her mother.

Unabridged edition of the diary, based on original manuscript, was published in France in 16 volumes, and then has been partially (years 1973-1876) translated in English (see Reference).

Reference:

1. Bashkirtseff, Marie "Mon journal", volumes I-XVI; texte intégral transcrit par Ginette Apostolescu. - Montesson (5 rue Jean-Claude-Bézanier, 78360 ) : Cercle des amis de Marie Bashkirtseff, 2005 (Paris : Impr. diff. graphique). - 1 vol. (326 p.) ; 21 cm. Index. - DLE-20051207-57368. - 848.803 oeuvre (21) . - ISBN 2-9518398-5-5 (br.) : 22 EUR. - EAN 9782951839854.

2. "I Am the Most Interesting Book of All: The Diary of Marie Bashkirtseff" (English translation by Phyllis Howard Kernberger, Katherine Kernberger) ISBN-10: 0811802248, ISBN-13: 978-0811802246, Publisher: Chronicle Books (June 1, 1997)

1890 English Translation

I came to this page because I rescued from the scrap heap (!!) the "Journal of Marie Bashkirtseff," Rand, McNally & Co., 1890. The translation is by A.D. Hall and G.B. Heckel. It claims to be "complete," covering the years 1873-84 in 825 pp. This is more coverage than in the "partial" translation mentioned above.

I have difficulty imagining how, if this is NOT an abridgement, the French original would have required 16 VOLUMES. Perhaps it was run as a serial and published in that many consecutive issues of a journal??

In the preface, she gives her birth date, evidently wrongly, as 1 Nov 1860, and her death date is indicated by the translators as 31 Oct 1884.

With regard to the comment that the Old Style/New Style difference could account for the birth date discrepancy, I don't believe that those calendars were ever more that a couple of weeks apart--OS/NS could certainly not by itself account for mistaking 1858 for 1860. There must have been something more--I gather her parents at some point wished her to seem younger than she was. (Nasty thought: what year did they marry? Ooops. Excuse me.)

Now I suppose I need to read this tome. Since she is baring her soul, I hope she wrote something worth baring. At first glance, it doesn't seem too promising; since I already love dogs, I hope there is more to it.

Terry J. Carter (talk) 21:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the lead to this edition; I have added it to the list of editions of her journal that I created.Alafarge (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikiquote page for Marie Bashkirtseff

Can someone start one?

e.g. I am the most interesting book of all.

To a woman who knows her own mind men can only be a minor consideration.

I want to live faster, faster, faster! ... I fear that this desire to live always at high pressure is the presage of a short existence. Who knows?

True artists cannot be happy.

In this depression and dreadful uninterrupted suffering, I don’t condemn life. On the contrary I like it and find it good. Can you believe it? I find everything good and pleasant, even my tears, my grief. I enjoy weeping, I enjoy my despair. I enjoy being exasperated and sad. I feel as if these were so many diversions, and I love life in spite of them all. I want to live on. It would be cruel to have me die when I am so accommodating. I cry, I grieve, and at the same time I am pleased - no, not exactly that - I know not how to express it. But everything in life pleases me, I find everything agreeable, and in the very midst of my prayers for happiness, I find myself happy at being miserable. It is not I who undergo all this - my body weeps and cries, but something inside of me which is above me is glad of it all. Journal of....

My body cries and cries out/screams/shouts; but something which/who/that is above me rejoices to live, still/anyway.

References

The artist was Ukrainian

The artist was Ukrainian and spoke Ukrainian (and others 5 languages). This is a classic example of russian cultural appropriation and racism agains Ukrainian people. Especially now more than ever the truth must be seen 2A01:CB1D:26:D00:1DA6:1758:A69C:8979 (talk) 15:44, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Nationality

At that time part of Ukraine was occupied by Russian Empire, but that doesn’t make her Russian. She is an Ukrainian artist because that area was occupied by Russians only for some time. 213.109.232.36 (talk) 10:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for righting great wrongs. Summer ^talk 14:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2023

Maria Bashkirtseff is Ukrainian artist, not russian! 91.66.106.5 (talk) 00:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Paper9oll @91.66.106.5

In regards to the sources,

1. there are pictures of her wearing Ukrainian traditional clothing, [1] & [2] as an example.

2. In her diary, there are multiple references to Ukrainian culture regarded as her native.

>Aunt Sophie is playing some melodies of the Ukraine on the piano, and that reminds me of our country house.

>Before I went abroad I knew nothing of Russia except the Ukraine and the Crimea. The few Russian peasants who used to come out into the country as pedlars seemed almost foreigners to us, and we used to laugh at their dress and their speech.

At one point, the diary mentions meeting with Pope Pius IX, with the exchange that went as follows :

>" Russians ? Then, from St. Petersburg ? "

" No, Holy Father," said mamma, " from Little Russia." , which was a common way to refer to Ukraine at that time.

Describing the already mentioned Ukrainian national clothing :

>The everyday dress of a girl in Little Russia consists of a stout linen shirt with large puffed sleeves, embroidered in red and blue...[]...I sent to the peasants to buy a similar costume. Then I dressed in it, and, accompanied by our young men, I went into the village.

In the publisher's notes of the diary, it is mentioned that "it (the diary) is written in French, as Marie possessed but an imperfect knowledge of Russian."

There is almost no reason to call her a Russian artist other than her being born in the Russian Empire. As the diary mentioned, she didn't even speak Russian as well as she spoke French.

When it comes to conversing with others she and her family make the distinction between Ukraine and Russia, calling Ukraine "the little Russia", which was normal back then. TillValhalla (talk) 10:20, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2023

Changing "Russian émigré artist" to Ukrainian-born émigré artist. TillValhalla (talk) 10:07, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I am copying my previous reply from the thread above in hopes an administrator can take a look at it. The artist was born in Ukraine and barely visited Russia. Her family name is Bashkirtseff, which originates from Bashkir people living in the Ural region. They are of different ethnicity than Russians, and they've been occupied by Russian Empire same way Ukraine was. I do not think it is appropriate to call her Russian artist as it looks like the only reason to do so is Russian imperialistic narratives.

In regards to the sources,

1. there are pictures of her wearing Ukrainian traditional clothing, [1] & [2] as an example.

2. In her diary, there are multiple references to Ukrainian culture regarded as her native.

>Aunt Sophie is playing some melodies of the Ukraine on the piano, and that reminds me of our country house.

>Before I went abroad I knew nothing of Russia except the Ukraine and the Crimea. The few Russian peasants who used to come out into the country as pedlars seemed almost foreigners to us, and we used to laugh at their dress and their speech.

At one point, the diary mentions meeting with Pope Pius IX, with the exchange that went as follows :

>" Russians ? Then, from St. Petersburg ? "

" No, Holy Father," said mamma, " from Little Russia." , which was a common way to refer to Ukraine at that time.

Describing the already mentioned Ukrainian national clothing :

>The everyday dress of a girl in Little Russia consists of a stout linen shirt with large puffed sleeves, embroidered in red and blue...[]...I sent to the peasants to buy a similar costume. Then I dressed in it, and, accompanied by our young men, I went into the village.

In the publisher's notes of the diary, it is mentioned that "it (the diary) is written in French, as Marie possessed but an imperfect knowledge of Russian."

There is almost no reason to call her a Russian artist other than her being born in the Russian Empire. As the diary mentioned, she didn't even speak Russian as well as she spoke French.

When it comes to conversing with others she and her family make the distinction between Ukraine and Russia, calling Ukraine "the little Russia", which was normal back then.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. It seems to me from looking at other discussion on this very page that this is a contentious issue that could use discussion among editors before being unilaterally implemented. – Recoil16 (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd love to reach a consensus, would you be able to advice me on how to do that? The wiki page you mentioned says editors must reach it naturally, but how do I get them to see this discussion in the first place? TillValhalla (talk) 19:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Nationality

so, according to Wikipedia, everyone who was born in the Russian Empire is a Russian? This is not a rhetorical, this is a genuine one. Are people born in Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Poland, Moldova, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Alaska under the rule of the Russian Empire Russians? Were all those nations, temporarily, nonexistent? 2601:243:1F00:4A40:2E65:7E6B:B344:763A (talk) 02:53, 4 February 2024 (UTC)