Talk:Marielle Franco/Archive 1

Archive 1

sexuality

I've seen her reported as both a "lesbian" and "bisexual". "Lesbian" seems to be more common, but I haven't been able to find any self-identification. The closest I've seen is this article in which she seems to speak about lesbians in the first person ("buscamos representatividades das mulheres, mulheres negras, mulheres lésbicas, mulheres faveladas ... Nossas vidas importam"). There was some edit-warring going on over this earlier, so I changed it to "member of the LGBT community", but it would be great if we could get something better than that. -- irn (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

irn, How about just citing her spouse until we have a reliable source of self-identification? Chico Venancio (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

That could definitely work. Do we know that they were married? I can only find her referred to as her partner. I just tried working it into the text, but I'm not satisfied with how it looks right now. I also don't know how I feel about putting the full name of both her partner and her daughter. They are both adults, and it's within policy to do so, but I'm wondering if it might be best not to include their full names since they might face additional risks given that Franco was just assassinated. I think it's probably okay, which is why I did it, but I'm not totally sure. -- irn (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I think keeping their names is the way to go. We actually have articles about the prejudice homesexual partners face in the media by not being given attention to their grief. In the aftermath of this assassination, the wife of Franco's driver, Anderson, was interviewed by several media outlets. But Marielle's partner was not given a voice. I don't think their names in English Wikipedia raises at all their threat level. I'll look for sources about their marriage. Chico Venancio (talk) 01:08, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Glenn Greenwald, who, as a gay journalist and personal friend of Franco, is likely to be careful about this kind of thing, described her as a "black, leftist lesbian". I would support using "lesbian" on this basis.

I wouldn't worry about giving too much exposure to Mônica, at least; she gave an interview yesterday on the very popular national TV show Fantástico. Her daughter has also spoken publicly, but shouldn't be covered disproportionately. FourViolas (talk) 22:53, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Good call on all accounts! That article also refers to Mônica as Franco's wife, so I've changed it from "partner" to "wife" in the text. Cheers, -- irn (talk) 23:10, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Here it is mentioned they were to get married in September 2019, so they were living together but not officially married.-- (talk) 12:04, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Here Marielle Franco speaks about herself as "O lugar de mulher, mulher negra, bissexual". So bisexual was her self-identification. Huon (talk) 23:20, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Here Monica Tereza Benício, Marielle's partner, says that Marielle had relationships with several men "we ended our relationship several times, got back together several others". Monica had relationships with other women and other men; Marielle, with other men" (talk) 12:00, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, good call! FourViolas (talk) 17:39, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Power Structures

I was a bit confused as may others have been as to the translation for the title (”Young Black Women Moving Structures”) of the round-table she attended before she was assassinated (it's very important we know more about that)... Glenn Greenwald is a good source for this and I saw this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/974234883064303617 He's a very reputable journalist in Brazil who knows the local language well, so I think we should look to him for more info on how to explain this as there are very few good English sources right now about this because of the language barrier. I see some mistranslations as some sources are translating this as Moving Structures which is just weird in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petrichor (talk • contribs) 01:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Translation of “Jovens negras”

I changed it to Young black women, and then RedUser changed it to Black Youngsters, stating black is gender-free in english, it also makes "women" the substantive of the subject, while it don't appear on the original. Precisely because black is gender-free in English, but "negras" is not, we need another word in there to show that "jovens negras" refers specifically to young black women. We do have at least once source that translates it as "Young black women". -- irn (talk) 01:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Alright, let's go back to the 2nd grade. Would you translate "adolescentes negras" as "adolescents black women? I hope not. "Negras" here is the adjective, with black as a translation, no matter the gender. This translation creates a new substantive don't expressed on the original. At least "black young women" would be less wrong. RedUser (talk) 01:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

There's no reason to be condescending.

Your example would be "adolescent black girls"; translating it as "black adolescents" would be the equivalent of "black youth" in this case, and that would simply be incomplete. I don't know what your level of English is, but "black young women" sounds wrong to native speakers because age comes before color in English. -- irn (talk) 02:13, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Nope, "jovens" is a noun with no relation whatever with any adjective. RedUser (talk) 00:55, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, irn knows "jovens" is a noun. In Portuguese, the noun "jovens" is gender-free, while the adjective "negras" indicates that the young people are female (and plural). In English, the nouns "youngsters" and "youths" similarly give no information about gender, but neither does the adjective "black". Therefore, to convey all the information given by "jovens negras", we need to translate "jovens" as "young women". For reasons explained at irn's link, the terms combine in the adjectival phrase "young black women". Você fala português? Posso traduzir se você precisar. FourViolas (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding the way translation works. It doesn't matter what part of speech a word is in the original; translation is about communicating the same idea as in the original. Think about "estou com fome". No one would ever translate that as "I'm with hunger" - which is essentially what your argument amounts to. We can recognize that "fome" is a noun, but when we translate the idea to English, the way that's expressed is "I'm hungry".

And to get technical, "jovens" is a nominalized adjective. Nominalized adjectives are much more common in Portuguese than in English, and a perfectly acceptable translation of "jovem" is "young person". In this case, since we know the gender, we can replace "person" with its appropriate gendered equivalent: woman. -- irn (talk) 13:46, 23 March 2018 (UTC)