Talk:Marko Mesić (soldier)

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Comments by 83.131.74.185 on article

The Wanderer:

I appreciate your efforts and am glad to see you do now believe Mesic lived to 1982 unlike the version pushed by internet sources you trusted before. Information you present is very well arranged (far above my skills) but sadly you stil insist on outdated largely wrong poorly researched single source(s).

1 All info I wrote is latest verifiable info from HDA published new book and is very well referenced.

For example info on Mesic's post Stalingrad days (you again removed) in Russian captivity and Yugoslav Army is from HDA 1561. SDS RSUP Dosje Marka Mesica br. 308865 ............ surely a verifiable resource?

2 All you write is mainly from dated book now shown to be wrong.

3 Some details about formation in Russia and action of Yugoslav brigade against Germans are by escaped former legionaires Danijel Pelko, Kuzma Jelenčić and Hajrudin Dizdar -(NDH) MINORS Command, Personal department 19750 dated 1.4.1945.

4 There is a secret instruction by NDH military in Slavonski Brod dated 7.4.1945. with detailed instructions how to handle escaped former legionaires now in 'Jugoslavenska legija' regarding their possible pro soviet 'boljševički' background.

5 Most partisan Yugoslav Army details are from book by Đuro Lončarević Specijalna Misija arranged by Ivan Matović Beograd 1991 pages 85-91 For example Loncarevic claims over 238 former legionaires now partisans were 'proven by JA secret services to be' NKVD collaborators.

6 More JA details are from Istorijat I brigade formirane u SSSR, I deo ..... by stariji vodnik Vrgović Stevan

For example you insist on totally wrong 100 survivors of the 369th after Paulus surrendered. Truth is last days there were some 100 combat soldiers holding Russians on their last stand 200m long battlefield line. Your sources forget artillery unit and command/support/transport strength at Stalingradskaja flight school. The last ever Luftwaffe land and take off flight from the 'Kessel' was night 22 to 23.1.1943. when last group of wounded Croat legionaires and their military diary flew out. For example they even had a Varazdin military band with them ....... some musicians flew out in January ..... Col. Mesic stated this during his interrogation in 1948 that on 29th (or 30th) of Jan 1943 15 officers and some 700 men surrendered to general Vasiljev. SDS RSUP Dosje Marka Mesica br. 308865

7 Surviving 429 (from 700 alive in January 1943) legionaires were joined by 381 LPZ legionaires (not in Stalingrad) captured with their Italian comrades so there were 810 legionaires alive in December 1943.

8 Mesic was removed from command 18.11.1944. in Belgrade together with Marijan Prišlin and other legionaire officers. Some were shot as 'Gestapo' moles. ....... ' Historija artileriskog diviziona I. jugoslavenske brigade formirane u SSSRu od zapovjednika potporučnika Ivana Zgonca HDA 1573

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/related/axis_allies/croatia_main.htm site you use as reference is dated and wrong on many points ..... for example Podobnik made it out of Stalingrad alive before surrender but was later KIA during 1944 in Croatia .... so was highly decorated lt. Bakarec ..... Reports by Pavelic's personal assistant col. Sabljak who spent 3+ weeks in the 'kessel' are very detailed .......... so are original reports in HDA by 'the last nightime flight out 22/23.1.43.' lt. Rudolf Baričević.

You seem to be interested in the subject......... using dated unverified info available on the net........there is so much more ........ I would have to rewrite Pojic's book with his sourced referenced info. I do suggest you read Croatian State Archives Milan Pojic's book (2007) and article in Jutarnji List to see how dated and wrong is your version of Mesic's biography. Jergovic's article is very well written and is largely based on Pojic's book and his own research in HDA.

There was too much misinformation (especially internet based anti Croat propaganda) published over the years about many circles of hell these men had to descend through ...... try and read the book and reconsider.

Hello. I don't doubt some of your claims, but you need to reference them better. The whole thing seems somewhat farfetched. Man leaves Royal Yugoslav Army, joins Croatian forces in legionnaire unit to fight Soviets, after imprisonment joins Soviets who attach him to Yugoslav Partisan unit, then is finally accused by Yugoslav authorities of being a Soviet spy? While Kosutic's book may not be a definitive authority on this issue, it does have a reliable claim by Mesic's brother that he lost his legs escaping from Yugoslav officials.

If you want to prove some of the claims which do not sync up with what are usually accurate sources, please provide citations from Pojic's collection of the HDA info (while you may have personal access to the HDA, any info which is unpublished is not verifiable). These usually take the form of: <ref> Author. ''Title''. Publisher. Place, Year. (Page)</ref>. You could even provide me with the page numbers for the info (chiefly the info which contradicts the other sources - we don't need references for absolutely everything), and I could insert the citations myself. I'd like to be of more help, but I don't have access to the book or the archives (I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic).--Thewanderer (talk) 00:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

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I did spend many years on the other side of the globe but now am only 50kms away from HDA :-)

Loss of both legs occured according to Pojic at Zagreb railway station 1950 during transfer by UDBA to Beograd for interrogation ..... unclear if he was pushed or he tried to escape .... no arguments there.

You seem to be unaware that tens of thousands of partisans (officers ESPECIALLY) WITH ANY CONTACT EVER with the Russians were AUTOMATICALLY suspected of collaboration with NKVD after 1945 and espacially after 1948 Informbiro resolution. My late father as a drafted soldier in Belgrade 1948 witnessed (with extreme disgust) beatings to death of ('vintage 1941') partisan colonel(s) suspected of Soviet collaboration by JA security 'experts'. Loncarevic claims that over 238 former legionaires now partisans were 'proven by JA secret services to be' NKVD collaborators as early as 1945 ........ before Tito felt threatened by the Russian 'eastern block formation' machine. If one had a chat with a russian those days ...... one had UDBA on his door late next night. Mesic was a classic 'prime suspect' for UDBA but maybe, just maybe, he was not to be executed or beaten to death by UDBA because Tito did not order him executed before ........... and UDBA boys and girls knew what was allowed and what was not as far as people Tito knew.

I do not have access to HDA but Pojic references every claim in his book to cited sources including HDA and RSUP as well as other obviously verified sources. Mesic claimed during 1948 he personally talked Russians into forming his JA unit but it was also a Russian policy to form these national units. Fact is 700 of 369th men survived Stalingrad and by end of 1943 there were only 400 odd accounted for....... 40 % attrition rate apparently not uncommon by Russian standards. Also some 95000 to 100000 Germans surrendered Jan 1943 and only around 6000 returned to Germany after 1946 at the end of WW2. Maybe Mesic did it all only to save his own life as well as lives of his 400 (700 with LPZ) men from certain death at GULAG machine.

Interesting fact is (from war diary) that Mesic was on leave from Stalingrad but returned on 25th October 1942 to be greeted by his men who seem to have liked him a lot, obviously not without reason.

Citation for his knight award is "Vojnički red željeznog trolista II stupnja s pravom na naslov viteza" (Hrvatski Narod br. 766/27 lipanj 1943 str 3)

Fact is NDH never declared war on Russia (and it happily did declare war on USA) so 369th (a German unit number) legionaires as well as Mesic were legally speaking GERMAN SOLDIERS - so we could presume he was a German soldier/officer until Feb. 1943 ?

Pojic quotes obviously extensive 'SDS RSUP Dosje Marka Mesica br. 308865' and Loncarevic's book for most of claims about his post Stalingrad days as well as partisan/communist documents about the brigade.

There is a dramatic description by partisan officer Đuro Lončarević ( also citing partisan leader Veljko Vlahovic) about Mesić and his men and about Čačak battle and Tito's involvement and orders. Loncarevic describes Tito meeting with Mesic as the most aggressive Tito he ever saw (and we do know Tito was decisive and ruthless) ...... but ....... Tito does not have him executed ......... for some reason he even invites Mesic to stay for lunch. Partisans (Vlahovic and Kardelj) disliked the fact that near 100% of unit officers were former Pavelic's 'ustashe' legionaires. They order some shot like don Ante Vajs and later lt. Nikola Sabski as well as many more ...... Death sentence was easy those days but Mesic makes it. My personal suspicion is that somebody Tito knew of maybe saved Mesic's life. A name of lt.col. Ljubomir Broz is mentioned in 369th war diary at the time of Harkov battle ..... so maybe ...... just maybe ........ this Broz was somebody related to Tito?

Mesic's bravery as well as of his mainly legionaire men during Cacak battle is unbelievable but is well documented. Loncarevic and other sources reluctantly admits that supporting partisan units withrew leaving Mesic and his men exposed and suffering heaviest casualties at brigade unit level partisans ever saw from 1941 to date. This 'defeat' was used as a reason to sack complete officer crew including Mesic in Belgrade late. 1941. Serbian soldiers disliked former Croat Ustashes in their rank and spread rumours they would be all soon shot. Sadly 'under new management' the brigade suffered catastrophic losses on Srijemski front and near Slavonski Brod.

Farfetched his life story certainly seems to be but all appears to be well researched documented truth ...... this is why I write about Mesic today ...... life is stranger than fiction. I have a distant relative who joined this unit early 1941 and spent his time at Black Sea Croat unit as a sailor. He was lucky to make it to UK after WW2 and live to ripe old age like Mesic ..... wheel of fortune. Mesic's life story is not totally unbelievable by our standards in Croatian history ..... From Kingdom of Yugoslavia soldier -> NDH/German soldier -> partisan JA soldier - > 1948 Informbiro victim. My uncle died recently at 85 - he was officer in Royal Jugoslavia military, NDH Ustasha officer until winter 1941, partisan thereafter, colonel of JA 1945, sacked and pensioned off and interrogated harshly 1948 lucky to escape Goli Otok .... not hard to beleive.

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If you want we can start a 369th page as well as Pavicic and Markulj page?

369th Reinforced Infantry Regiment already exists. Also, if you're the same user (I can't really be sure, since you're anonymous), the Pojic references require page numbers. If you're interested in further contribution, I'd recommend you register yourself on Wikipedia. Cheers.--Thewanderer (talk) 15:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

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OK I registered. Please make an example for page(s) Reference 3. from Pojic - it is pages 82 to 92.

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(Copied and pasted from article, all discussion belongs here. --Explodicle (talk) 20:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC))

The Wanderer

I do not understand reasons for insisting on replacing my sourced biography of Marko Mesic with your old unverified stories based on unverified internet articles taken as fact. If you can understand Croatian language than just a click on * Heroji za pogrešnu stvar: Bačeni na Staljingrad, Jutarnji list, 24. veljače 2008. would be enough for you. Jutarnji List - Zagreb is of course a verifed source unlike obscure web sites you prefer and quote as 'verified sources'.

Biography I am trying to publish is based on recent book http://www.naklada-ljevak.hr/knjiga/show/id/2079 published by the Croatian State Archives as well as numerous aritcles in mainstream Croatian press. If you wish I can scan relevant pages (in Croatian language) and post them here?

Version you are trying to push is based on unverified old internet articles.

Yes it is unbelievable but true fact that Mesic lived to old age ....... see http://www.gradskagroblja.hr/Trazilica/MapPreview.aspx?CemeteryID=1&Field=50&DeptID=1&PersonID=227619. for his burial records and cemetery location at Mirogoj. Next time I am at Mirogoj I will visit his grave and take a picture and post it here for you.

If you have to ... for some reason........ you can continue to revert to your unverified version based on unverified rumours published on the net as 'sources'.

Everybody in Croatia and further uses verified Croatian State Archives.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.74.185 (talk • contribs)

This article needs to be checked for neutrality. It seems to have been written by a Croatian and paints Mesic and the Croatian Legion in an overly favorable light, noting many, many times about their heroism and the cowardice of German units and non-Croatian Partizan units. Those editors not familiar with the Balkans will note that the region is rife with nationalism and it seems to be very evident in this biased article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.224.144 (talk) 04:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Baffled by this stereotype comment. Same comment could apply to a region rife with age old nationalism and 1000 years of war ..... Germany and France ........ or shall we say France and UK ...... you name it. How and where did Partisans and Balkans get into your mind? Mesic did join Partisan JNA and displayed courage under fire fighting Germans with bravery and honor reported by partisan sources. Your comment is if anything biased, just because Mesic is from Balkans he must be 'one of them'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.57.91 (talk) 20:26, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable source?

This webpage is listed as a reference and an external link. That's generally not necessary, so I'll be removing it as an EL, but I notice that the link title in the EL section says that it has "incomplete/erroneous text about 369th." Well, I'll say! It says Mesić was executed by the Soviets in 1947. His tombstone says 1982 clearly enough, and other sources support that. I'd recommend not using this source again, and probably trying to replace it. This is large enough an error to make me doubt the whole source. --BDD (talk) 20:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Having read more of the article, it looks like the Germany army thought he was dead, perhaps presumed executed by the Soviets. So perhaps the webpage is working from erroneous primary source documents. I'm still wary though. --BDD (talk) 21:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)