Talk:Marlon Brando/Archive 3

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

um sorry but Michael Gilman was his son. I knew him personally. He grew up with mr. Brando always around and he is in many pictures that you can find on the internet along with his adopted father and Marlon. = Lede is way too long

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Brando was good but he was only an actor. He doesn't need such a lengthy lede. Many details are trivial and should be moved to the main article. (86.170.60.214 (talk) 18:23, 12 April 2017 (UTC))

Who are you and why do your personal acquaintances matter? Talk about way too long -- that section head is absurd and makes you appear the same. -- Jibal (talk) 05:00, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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The Brando Children

Latest comment: 7 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

Hello! I have been a huge Marlon Brando fan since I was a little kid, I've read almost all of his biographies and watched all the documentaries made about him, and whenever I visit his page on Wikipedia, I notice that the section about his personal life and children is filled with errors. In all the books and documentaries about Brando, they state that he had 8 biological children only: Christian (by Anna Kashfi), Miko and Rebecca (by Movita Castaneda), Teihotu and Cheyenne (by Tarita Teriipaia), Ninna Priscilla, Myles Jonathan and Timothy Gahan (by Maria Cristina Ruiz). Petra (daughter of his former assistant and author James Clavell), Maimiti (daughter of Tarita Teriipaia and a Frenchman named Jean Claude) and Raiatua (Teriipaia's niece) were adopted. I listened once to a Q and A about the documentary "Listen to me, Marlon" with its producers and Rebecca Brando. They were talking about the children and one of the producers asked Rebecca how many siblings does she have, and Rebecca answered: "We are 8" (She did not mention her adopted siblings). He did not have 16 children, this is a ridiculous rumor. The reason you see it everywhere on the Internet is because shortly after his passing, some people like Angelique Brando and Lisa Brando claimed they were his illegitimate children, but their claim has never been proven true. (They never took a DNA test to prove they were his children and the estate does not recognize or acknowledge them). For some odd reason, this has been reported as true. Linda Carroll (Courtney Love's mom) denied she was Brando's daughter in 2003. http://people.com/celebrity/mom-courtneys-no-brando-love-child/ Stephen Blackhart has repeatedly denied that he has any relation to Brando or that his real name is Stefano Brando. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndAYTwPcBsM Stephen's name, along with Angelique Brando,Lisa Brando, Warren Brando, Michael Gilman and Dylan Brando should be removed. (Some sources say that Dylan Brando died in 1988,I believe it's a lie because Brando never grieved the loss of a child that year. The only child to predecease him was Cheyenne in 1995).

Thank you! Bluhy23 (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: Can you reference any of these biographies or documentaries? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: Hello, here are some credible sources that can be used(I will provide some links):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFDSB3pAtXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTLuILdHos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SunqHrrUCi0 The book "Brando's smile" by Susan L. Mizruchi is one of the best I've read about him: https://books.google.ca/books?id=fLBbAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Brando%27s+smile&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis_NjIxbHWAhVF5oMKHaBcDfIQ6AEIJjAA#v=snippet&q=Brando's%20smile%20Raiatua&f=false There is Tarita Teriipaia's memoir that is written in French (I can't find the link, but it's called "Marlon,mon amour, ma dechirure. trans-title: Marlon, my love, my torment). She tells her story about her life with him and how he adopted her daughter by a man named Jean Claude, Maimiti and niece, Raiatua. Other useful links: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=4195238 http://www.latimes.com/la-tm-brando43oct23-story.html https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/arts/brando-leaves-10-children-and-216-million-us/article655394/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& Bluhy23 (talk) 17:29, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I looked at the first and third links you provided and they look like a WP:LINKVIOs.The second source seems like it could be acceptable, and so are languages in other like French. I don't know much about the children of Brando so I'll let another editor handle this situation, but I am grateful for your actions. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:45, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: Thank you I really appreciate it!Bluhy23 (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

You should ask about this at the WP:BLP noticeboard. For example, I know that one of these claimed children have "Brando may be the father" material in their Wikipedia article. Or had, last time I checked. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Hello! I looked at the WP:BLP noticeboard but I'm not sure whether I can discuss the issue there because it's a noticeboard for the biographies of living people only.Bluhy23 (talk) 23:10, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Some of the children are alive. Stephen Blackehart is alive and is claimed to be a Brando child, but he has said that he is not one. This is the article I meant with with my above "03:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)" post. And this -- living children being dubiously cited as a Brando child -- is why it's a BLP issue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

On a side note: Since this page is on my watchlist, there is no need to ping me to it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Stanley R. Jaffe errata

Latest comment: 7 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I'm quoting the article: 'Paramount Pictures President Stanley Jaffe told an exasperated Coppola, "As long as I'm president of this studio, Marlon Brando will not be in this picture, and I will no longer allow you to discuss it."'

So okay, off the cuff, I don't think that Stanley Jaffe was ever the 'Paramount Pictures President'. Note that Stanley R. Jaffe's birthday was 31 July 1940. Too young to be 'Paramount Pictures President' before Godfather came out. I note that in 1991, he was named president and chief operating officer of Paramount Communications. However, this is not actually relevant, is it? Because, Paramount Communications is actually only *named after* Paramount Pictures. So okay, who is Stanley R. Jaffe? I think that Stanley R. Jaffe was in 1970 appointed executive vice president and chief operations officer of Paramount Pictures. But, he was also then named president of Paramount Television, within three months. But then also, this post he resigned in 1971. Frankly I am far from sure that his name belongs in this article at all. Let's return, then, to the article. And somebody said this to Coppola: '"As long as I'm president of this studio, Marlon Brando will not be in this picture, and I will no longer allow you to discuss it.' Well, did somebody ever say this to Coppola? And maybe that somebody was Robert Evans, because as is mentioned, here, Robert Evans is head of production. I don't know. But I do know, that entire paragraphs of this article are simply plagiarized from The Godfather Legacy: The Untold Story of the Making of the Classic, by Harlan Lebo, which is actually cited as the source, but I do not think it is correct practice to simply plagiarize entire paragraphs out of the source. I am not trying to make up the rules, here, I'm just wondering what they are. Note that the article proceeds to plagiarize some more, about how Jaffe then offered the role to Brando on three conditions, and so forth. Probably none of this is true, in the sense that somebody is just spitballing this cuz it sounds cool, and not because it supposedly actually happened according to anybody who was there. Who told this story? Did Coppola say this happened this way? How many other people besides Coppola would even be in a position to know? I think that using my little logical brain, I can simply *deduce* like Shelock Holmes, that much of the content of our article here, cannot possibly be true. If we are honest without ourselves, then it is fun to lie. I don't disagree, actually I enthusiastically agree. I just like to know what the game is..DanLanglois (talk) 15:21, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

"[http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-20/business/fi-5180_1_paramount-communications Made Paramount Studios youngest President (29th August 1970, New York City) at the age of 30. The youngest man to hold such a position in the cinema industry." --Moxy (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

---I am unclear on how to interpret these quotation marks because this is not a verbatim quote and if it's relevant, this is also not a trustworthy summary of the content of the link. I reiterate everything that I said, including the part about how 'Stanley R. Jaffe was in 1970 appointed executive vice president and chief operations officer of Paramount Pictures. But, he was also then named president of Paramount Television, within three months. But then also, this post he resigned in 1971.' DanLanglois (talk) 00:33, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

RfC: The Children of Marlon Brando

Latest comment: 7 years ago15 comments6 people in discussion

There is no consensus in this RfC. A new RfC has been created.
Cunard (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should we reduce the number of his children to 11? Stephen Blackehart and Linda Carroll have denied to have any relation to Brando, and there is no proof that Angelique Brando, Lisa Brando, Michael Gilman, Dylan Brando and Warren Brando are his children. Bluhy23 (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Comment: For context, editors should see #The Brando Children above and this post from the WP:BLP noticeboard. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:11, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Survey

We should report the number confirmed biological and adopted. We should also report all controversial persons for which WP:RS document the controversy.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:39, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the controversial persons are his children. Therefore, we should not report them. Bluhy23 (talk) 18:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

We should ensure the accuracy of the sources used to cite the information regarding the people who have claimed to be his illegitimate children. Bluhy23 (talk) 19:01, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

---Just a list, Off the cuff, I have these 17 (needs refs):

1. Christian Brando -- In 1957, Brando married Anna Kashfi, etc. Born 1958. He died 2008.

2. Miko Castaneda Brando -- In 1960, Brando married Movita Castaneda, etc. Born 1961.

3. Simon Teihotu Brando -- In 1962, Brando married Tarita Teriipia, etc. Born 1963.

4. Tarita Cheyenne Brando -- In 1962, Brando married Tarita Teriipia, etc. Born 1970. Hanged herself, 1995.

5. Rebecca Brando -- Note, remember that in 1960, Brando married Movita Castaneda, etc. They were divorced in 1962. But this one is born 1966.

6. Maimiti Brando -- In 1962, Brando married Tarita Teriipia, etc. Brando also adopted Teriipia's daughters. Born 1977.

7. Raiatua Brando -- In 1962, Brando married Tarita Teriipia, etc. Brando also adopted Teriipia's daughters. Born 1982.

8. Ninna Priscilla Brando -- Brando had a long-term relationship with his housekeeper Maria Christina Ruiz. Born 1989.

9. Myles Johnathan Brando -- Brando had a long-term relationship with his housekeeper Maria Christina Ruiz. Born 1992

10. Timothy Gahan Brando Brando had a long-term relationship with his housekeeper Maria Christina Ruiz. Born 1994

Now, the 'no proof' question about, for example, Angelique Brando.. Here's where things get tricky. Brando had four more children by unidentified women.

11. Angelique Brando -- born?

12. Michael Gregor Gilman -- born 1967, adopted by Sam Gilman.

13. Dylan Brando -- born 1968 (died 1988).

14. Stephen Blackehart -- born 1967. It has been reported that Blackehart was born as Stefano Brando and is the son of Marlon Brando, though Blackehart denies that he is any relation.

15. Brando also adopted Petra Brando-Corval -- born 1972, and the daughter of his assistant Carolilne Barrett and novelist James Clavell.

16. Lisa Brando -- Lisa Brando was born from a relationship between Cynthia Lynn and Brando, though Lisa did not come forward about her father until after his 2004 death.

17 Warren Angelo Brando -- born 1985.

PS: He may had more children. DanLanglois (talk) 07:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I have spent some time researching Marlon Brando by reading his biographies and archived articles and watching his documentaries, and none of them hint that he may have had more than 11 children. There are no verifiable sources that indicate that he had children by unidentified women. (It's ridiculous). I have never heard of Warren Brando (I don't know why his name is mentioned).Michael Gilman is the adopted son of Brando's good friend Sam Gilman but he is in no way, shape or form Brando's biological son. Dylan Brando is a hoax.It is well known and documented that the only child who had predeceased him was Cheyenne. (She committed suicide in 1995 and Brando was deeply heartbroken by the incident.) Angelique Brando and Lisa Brando are questionable. (no proof they are his children).Again, Stephen Blackehart and Linda Carroll have denied to be related to him.(Blackehart's real name is not Stefano Brando, this is another hoax) We should not report those doubtful children because no credible source supports this claim ,and the main issue I have is how WP:RS is used in the article.Please see #The Brando Children section above for credible sources.

Marlon Brando's children are (and should only be):

1.Christian Brando (1958-2008) (by his first wife Anna Kashfi)

2.Miko Brando (1961-) (by his second wife Movita Castaneda)

3.Simon Teihotu Brando (1963-) (by his common-law wife Tarita Teriipaia)

4.Rebecca Brando (1966-) (by his second wife Movita Castaneda)

5.Cheyenne Brando (1970-1995) (by his common-law wife Tarita Teriipaia)

6.Ninna Priscilla Brando (1989-) (by Maria Cristina Ruiz)

7.Myles Jonathan Brando (1992-) (by Maria Cristina Ruiz)

8.Timothy Gahan Brando (1994-) (by Maria Cristina Ruiz)

Through adoption:

9.Petra Brando-Corval (1972-)

10.Maimiti Brando (1976-)

11.Raiatua Brando (1981-) Bluhy23 (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: You said I have spent some time researching. However WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH isn't allowed. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: The material I consulted exists in print and online. It is reliable and provides accurate information about Marlon Brando and his children. I have not done original research nor have I come to my own conclusions. What I meant by "I spent some time researching" was that I learned about Marlon Brando and his life by reading biographies and watching documentaries in my leisure time. (I do it as a fan and admirer of Marlon Brando) I think it is very important to present truthful information about him in the article. I stated facts. The reports about the illegitimate children are based on speculation and hearsay. They are not accurate. (They did not come from reliable sources) Bluhy23 (talk) 19:03, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: That is good of you. I just wanted to make sure your information corresponded with Wikipedia policies, however we still must keep in mind WP:SYNTH. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Note: It has been misreported that Marlon Brando divorced Movita Castaneda in 1962 to marry Tarita Teriipaia. According to Peter Manso, in his book "Brando", Brando and Castaneda separated in 1962 but they remained legally married until 1968 (They divorced 2 years after their daughter Rebecca was born). Teriipaia sort of confirms this claim in her memoir "Marlon, my love my torment" (She does not allude to a legal marriage between her and Brando taking place). She was his common-law wife from 1962 to 1972.However,this information does not have to be added because it's complicated and it has not been widely validated. It would be good enough to refer to Teriipaia as a third wife. (most credible sources do) Bluhy23 (talk) 20:41, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I would like to get more input from editors. Anybody?Bluhy23 (talk) 00:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Think this should not be included unless each case is supported by multiple reliable sources (at least 2, preferably 3). Also this is suggestive of undue weight, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 21:02, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree it doesn't have to be (or maybe shouldn't be) included. Just thought that noting it would clarify the situation with regard to Rebecca Brando, who is sometimes mistaken for being Tarita Teriipaia's daughter, and not Movita Castaneda's. Bluhy23 (talk) 02:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Note: A new RfC on this matter will be created. See below.Bluhy23 (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Should the people who have denied being Marlon Brando's children, and those who have not been proven as his, be listed as his children?

Latest comment: 6 years ago42 comments7 people in discussion

There is no consensus in this RfC to change the article.
There is a clear consensus that if no reliable sources say a person is a child of Marlon Brando, then that person should be excluded. However, there is no consensus on what to do if reliable sources disagree on whether a person is a child of Marlon Brando or if a person denies being Marlon Brando's child. Some editors suggested excluding all disputed children while other editors recommended "teaching the controversy" by presenting both reliable sources' views.
A more precise RfC might be able to reach consensus. I recommend creating individual RfCs for each of Marlon Brando's disputed children. The RfC could present what sources say about Marlon Brando's relationship with them. Editors then can decide whether and how they can be discussed in Brando's article.
Cunard (talk) 01:01, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Marlon Brando has 11 children as confirmed by reliable sources: Christian Brando (by Anna Kashfi), Miko Brando (by Movita Castaneda), Teihotu Brando (by Tarita Teriipaia), Rebecca Brando (by Movita Castaneda), Cheyenne Brando (by Tarita Teriipaia), Ninna Priscilla Brando (by Cristina Ruiz), Myles Jonathan Brando (by Ruiz), Timothy Gahan Brando (by Ruiz), Petra Brando-Corval (adopted), Maimiti Brando (adopted) and Raiatua Brando (adopted). There have been false reports originating from unverified sources that he had 16 children. Stephen Blackehart [1] and Linda Carroll [2]have both denied being related to Marlon Brando, and there is zero evidence that Lisa Brando, Angelique Brando, Dylan Brando, Warren Brando and Michael Gilman are his children. No solid source supports the claim they are his children. Should the latter bunch be listed as his children? Bluhy23 (talk) 00:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Comment: For context, please see #The Brando Children section and the previous #RfC: The Children of Marlon Brando above, this post from the WP:BLP noticeboard, as well as this article [3]. Bluhy23 (talk) 00:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

There are two options for the survey: choose Support if you think we should NOT include 16 children in the article or Oppose if you think we should include 16 children in the article. Bluhy23 (talk) 01:10, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Survey

Comment: This is a section for votes only. I ask that you please discuss the issue in the section below, under Discussion. Thank you. Bluhy23 (talk) 16:49, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Support: We should NOT include the dubious children in the article. Bluhy23 (talk) 00:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
It would be better if the RfC had a clearer introduction and alternatives for people like me who don't want to spend an hour investigating claims about the subject. Put me down for supporting the removal of any claim relating to offspring where there is not gold-plated evidence justifying the claim. That particularly applies if the alleged descendant has denied the relationship. It's fine for someone to write a book or blog and repeat stories they've heard about sex and its consequences, but Wikipedia does things differently. Johnuniq (talk) 23:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: What is your view on the issue regarding the number? The number is not an example of WP:CALC but is listed in the given sources. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Note: Johnuniq's issue with the original RfC wording has been addressed on my talk page and the wording has been subsequently changed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Oppose If the content is sourced to WP:RS's we have no reason to leave it out. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
~~Support~~ (Summoned by bot) No extra chirren if not clearly and obviously proven with medical records or RS that have access to those records. As for the will, the will has nothing to do with this. I have heirs in my will who aren't my children. L3X1 (distænt write) 20:45, 8 November 2017 (UTC) struck for time being L3X1 (distænt write) 12:14, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Teach the controversy: It's part of our "job" to accurately represent conflicts between ostensibly reliable sources. Any claims from such should probably be accounted for even if they're dubious, otherwise people will continue to try to add them as facts in Wikipedia's own voice. E.g.: "According to [source], [person] claims to be one of Brando's children", "According to [source], [other source's claim] is not accurate", "In an interview in [source], [person] denied being related to Brando, despite claims by [other source]", etc. For claims with no reputable source at all, ignore them and leave them out, since this isn't UrbanLegendPedia. In short, do what we always do. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ< 06:53, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but what about "According to [source], [person] is one of Brando's children"? What quality of source would be needed if the person was known to have denied the claim? A lot of sources for a topic like this would simple repeat a claim ("X is the son/daughter of Brando") with no evidence offered. Did the source examine a verified birth certificate, or get a formal statement from someone likely to know such as the person's mother? If a person has denied being a child of Brando, a source which merely parrots the claim should not be used. Johnuniq (talk) 07:15, 28 November 2017 (UTC)0k
Here's what I don't understand. Elvis Presley is another deceased celebrity who is rumoured to have had illegitimate children (there are many people who have claimed for years to be his illegitimate children ) yet they are not listed as his children and the controversy is not reported on his Wikipedia page. I am not suggesting that we should report it or name these children since there is no evidence.But why would Marlon Brando be any different? What if this is not really a controversy but rather not getting facts right? In this Q and A ,at minute 11:30 [4] Rebecca Brando (Brando's daughter with Movita Castaneda) is asked how many children they are, and she answers "We are 8" (i.e. 8 biological children without the adopted ones). Bluhy23 (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:OtherStuffExists or in this case doesn't exist is not a valid argument. The fact that you have to explain that we are 8 doesn't include adopted children does not make me confident that you understand WP:OR. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
I understand it, but if you are familiar with Brando's children and have read his biographies (like myself who have been a longtime fan), then you clearly know what Rebecca means. And could you please explain to me why my argument is not valid?Bluhy23 (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

You can not just assume that her use of the word 8 refers to biological children without a wp:reliable source claiming that. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:50, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
Emir of Wikipedia Yes, but what about these sources that say that Brando had 11 children? [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] Bluhy23 (talk) 23:08, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Please read WP:SYNTH. We can't put multiple sources together to make conclusions that the source doesn't say. If one source says 8 and another says 11 we can just include them both. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

So could we just say in his infobox that he has/had 8 biological children and 3 adopted children instead of saying "Children: 11"? and not mention the dubious children at all because there is no proof? And I totally agree with Johnuniq. Everything he said makes perfect sense. Bluhy23 (talk) 03:13, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Support exclude dubious child cases. No need to include the 16. Lorstaking (talk) 05:49, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

@Emir of Wikipedia: Part of the main issue is the sources used in this article. Please review the sources. Some of the "children" are not even referenced. Where did their names come from? And how is it that the identity of their mother is unknown? The whole thing seems fishy.Bluhy23 (talk) 13:21, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: Thanks for raising your concern about the sources, but I agree with the above comment about the RfC. This has no clear introduction, and instead of getting editors who don't know about the topic it might be best to tackle each source on by one. Even if it seems "fishy" we must be careful to not engage in WP:OR, and just state what the sources say. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: Again, I am not doing WP:OR. See this [10] Bluhy23 (talk) 17:00, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: But why should we disregard the other sources? How is that one more authoritative than the others? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:40, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: Because they are not reliable. Have you read the article? His official Will names 10 living children. He had 11 but one had predeceased him ,Cheyenne. His Will was released shortly after his passing. Are you going to tell me now that his Will was fake? Why would he name 10 children but not 15 ? Why wouldn't he name 15 children if it were true he had 15 living children?If you spend some time reading his biographies or watching the documentaries about him (some of them can be found online),you will see that I am right. Bluhy23 (talk) 00:45, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: Maybe he didn't have them in his will for whatever reason, but sources give these other numbers. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:32, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: If that's the case, then why was his will never challenged? Bluhy23 (talk) 14:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: I have no view on that, and even if I did it would be WP:OR. We must go by what the sources says. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:02, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

And we must ensure the verifiability of these sources. I think it's more important than going by what they say.Bluhy23 (talk) 14:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bluhy23: Verifiability has a specific meaning on Wikipedia, so be careful how you use that. If you want a source by source analysis though then an RfC is not the right place. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@L3X1: What children do we have medical records for, and or have been used by RS's? Would you reasoning not be against mentioning any children at all? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm searching for it now, Emir of Wikipedia, but I believe policy allows us to name the children. As for not naming them at all, we still have to give a number, unless we want Brando has children or Brando has many children which would require a citation, or Brando has had multiple children with various women, the exact number and identity is under dispute. L3X1 (distænt write) 20:53, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@L3X1: That was partially my point. A source actually says While most profiles credit him with nine children, biographer Manso believes Brando may have left as many as 15 children.[11]. A book supports the claim of Stephen Blackehart, and is currently used as citation 2. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Then what do you propose we do? Remove the list if names and most of the text from the section? Determing the father is one of the hardest things to do, just because a RS says so and so is his kid, they may have received bad info, and children may claim him to improve their social status. L3X1 (distænt write) 21:21, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@L3X1: I agree it is a difficult thing to, but we must go by what the sources say. In this case no children are claiming him as their father from what the sources say, in fact one even denies it. I propose we keep the article as it is and go through a source by source analysis. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:26, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: In this New York Daily News article it says Teriipaia finally agreed to marry him in 1962 and eventually gave birth to Rebecca, Simon and Cheyenne when in reality, she is only the mother of Simon (Teihotu) and Cheyenne. Rebecca is Movita Castaneda's daughter. Bluhy23 (talk) 22:06, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

@L3X1: Just a question: If you had,for example, 15 children, wouldn't you name them all ,as your children, (not as your beneficiaries or heirs) in your will?Bluhy23 (talk) 22:28, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

What we would do doesn't change what the sources say. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

If I was sure they were my prodigy I would name them to settle all doubts.L3X1 (distænt write) 12:14, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

In this video [12], minute 11:30, Rebecca Brando is asked how many siblings she has, and she answers: "We are 8" (Minus the adoptive siblings) Bluhy23 (talk) 23:47, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Other sources : [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] These are very good (if not the best) and highly credible sources and articles, and all of them say Brando had 11 children. Bluhy23 (talk) 02:10, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the New York Daily News article, it is important to note that Manso CLAIMED (but never confirmed) that Brando had 15 children (It's his own conclusion; his claim was most likely based on assumptions considering the countless affairs Brando had)Manso BELIEVES Brando MAY have left as many as 15 children Manso never said that Brando did leave or left as many as 15 children. He was simply making a claim which he never confirmed and has never been proven. Bluhy23 (talk) 17:27, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Children and sources

Latest comment: 6 years ago30 comments5 people in discussion

I saw a question about Brandos children at Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests and after looking at the article, I think there´s a few things that could be done better.

Infobox: MARLON BRANDO had 16 children . . . and it's believed he's the father of a 17th IMO, this is a source we shouldn´t have to use in this article, there must be better. And if Blackehart denies being Brandos son, must he be noted in the infobox?

Personal life-section, collapsed box: I count 17 children here as of now, but the majority is uncited, not ideal (it agrees with mix957gr though). Some may be well cited in the text though.

Personal life-section, text. "He was the father to sixteen known children, three of whom were adopted. Some sources claim he fathered as many as 17 children or more.[7]" [7] is that source I don´t like again. nydailynews [18] says "While most profiles credit him with nine children, biographer Manso believes Brando may have left as many as 15 children.", and Forbes [19] says "his (roughly) sixteen children". Surely theses sources must be better from the WP-perspective? Good biographies would be even better. Also, if someone could archive this page, it would be good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I archived most old stuff but kept the discussions about children. Johnuniq (talk) 03:18, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

In the Personal Life section, I also see that the Data Lounge is used as a reference [20]. The DL is another source that we should avoid using on Wikipedia because it is a forum and does not provide facts. It's unreliable. Bluhy23 (talk) 20:36, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Per what I read at DataLounge you´re right and I agree. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:25, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I think we should only say he had 11 children with citations. I am familiar with Brando, his life and his children. (I have been studying him for a long time) I have read almost all of the biographies written about him and watched all the documentaries made about him, and all of them mention 11 children, 8 biological and 3 adopted.

Also, there is this short text in the Personal Life Section: "As a young man he was a family friend of Stella Adler's, whose daughter Ellen was a roommate of novelist Paula Fox. For a while, Brando and Fox lived under one roof and became close. Brando may have been the father of Fox's first child, daughter Linda Carroll, who was born in 1944. Linda was given up for adoption and is the mother of Courtney Love. Fox never named the child's father or addressed the affair." In my opinion, it is unnecessary to write about it and should be removed,considering that Carroll has denied any relation to Brando. This story is nothing but gossip. Bluhy23 (talk) 00:16, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

What should we do about this? Should we be WP:Bold and exclude all the dubious child cases? Bluhy23 (talk) 23:24, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

IMO, per WP:BLPNAME it is not necessary to name all of them (people have disagreed with me on this in similar topics in the past), especially the ones without WP-articles (for example "They had two children together, born in 1961 and 1966." is fine by me). I'm fine with removing the list and let the children appear, with or without names, in the text like they do now. Not being a WP:EXPERT on the subject, I can just generally say that "dubious" should not necessarily mean removal, not if both is/isn´t can be well sourced. Also, we must mention that sources disagree on the number, probably with some reliably sourced span (11-roughly 16?).

BTW, which of the 17 in the list are dubious ones? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

You make a very good point regarding the WP:BLPNAME but I think naming the children would be fine, given that they are mentioned in his documentaries, biographies, they do interviews, they appear in special events etc. (The fans, for example, are familiar with the children, especially Christian, Miko and Cheyenne.) The list can be kept. As for the sources, that is what is causing the big problem. The reliable ones like these [21], [22], [23], [24], [25] say he had 11 children. In his will, Brando named 10 living children (one,Cheyenne, had predeceased him)[26].In this video, at minute 11:30, [27], Rebecca Brando, (Brando's daughter with Movita Castaneda) says "we are 8" when asked how many children they are (I understand and know that she means 8 biological children). Other not so good sources say he had 16. (I believe the information they got is wrong;it is based on hearsay)

Dubious cases: As you know, Blackehart and Carroll (Courtney Love's mom) have both denied being related to Marlon Brando (they are not Brando's children). Lisa Brando and Angelique Brando came forward after Brando's passing, but their claims are very difficult to believe. [28] [29] (They never took a DNA test and I don't think the Brando family knows who they are). I see Michael Gilman's name. He is the son of actor Sam Gilman, and quite frankly, I don't know how this rumour that he is Marlon Brando's son started and where it originates from. (He's s not Brando's son). Dylan Brando is a hoax, I am sure of it. There are unverified sources that say he died in 1988. Brando never grieved the loss of a child that year, it is a fabricated story. It is well known and documented that the only child who had predeceased him was Cheyenne in 1995. (I don't think Dylan Brando ever existed). And finally, I have never heard of Warren Angelo Brando. I don't think he is even related to Marlon Brando. (Brando did not have a son named Warren) Bluhy23 (talk) 16:24, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

I haven't been following this discussion, but I'm quite surprised to find children listed here with no source citation. I'd like to remind everyone that WP:BLP is a Wikipedia policy, and it applies to any information about living people, in any article, not just articles whose subject is a living person. I would urge you to find and add citations for all living children. The ones who actually exist, and whose parentage is in question, should certainly be removed unless a reliable source (not the NY Post) is cited. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:39, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Kendall-K1 I agree with you, the problem of the sources and the dubious children needs fixing ASAP. Bluhy23 (talk) 02:37, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I have removed several of the dubious poorly-sourced children. Whoever added these needs to read WP:RS. The sources included Facebook, a gossip forum, and a Google search aggregator. None of these are reliable sources for any information, much less for BLP material. @Bluhy23: I would urge you to remove or at least qualify any others who might be dubious. We can't say "Joe was Brando's son" when the source actually says "Joe may have been Brando's son." Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:55, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@Kendall-K1:Thank you very much for your contribution to the discussion and improving the article. The sources that were used to cite those dubious children were very bad and poor, indeed. I will remove Stephen Blackehart's name from the infobox,(he denied being a child of Brando's) and replace "at least 16 children" with "11 children" and at least 3 citations (reliable sources) I will also remove the following short paragraph from the Personal Life section: "As a young man he was a family friend of Stella Adler's, whose daughter Ellen was a roommate of novelist Paula Fox. For a while, Brando and Fox lived under one roof and became close. Brando may have been the father of Fox's first child, daughter Linda Carroll, who was born in 1944. Linda was given up for adoption and is the mother of Courtney Love. Fox never named the child's father or addressed the affair." This is unnecessary to report in the article, it's irrelevant. There is no evidence of a romantic relationship between Paula Fox and Marlon Brando. There is no mention , or even hint of a fling between the two in any of the biographies, and just because they were once roommates does not mean that they were romantically involved. Carroll denied the story, anyway,calling it "crazy" and "not true" [30] It's pure gossip, and I don't think it has any place on Wikipedia.

Lisa Brando is another dubious child. Her name appears in the list of children (in the Personal Life section), but not in the text. She is sourced,[31] but she has never taken any DNA test, and she made her claim after Brando's passing [32] No one had ever heard of her when he was alive.(I don't think his family has any clue who she is;maybe she isn't telling the truth) What we know about her for certain is that, she wasn't named as one of his living children in his will, and the Marlon Brando estate does not acknowledge her (because they don't know who she is). I'm not sure whether we should remove her name or keep it. I'm in favour of removing it, because again, there is no evidence that she is Brando's daughter. But what do you think? Bluhy23 (talk) 17:03, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I would remove Lisa. It's important to read the sources carefully. The source does not say "Lisa may be Brando's daughter", it says "Lisa came forward and said Brando was her father." I could say, right here, that Brando was my father, but that would not warrant inclusion in this article. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:17, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. I will remove Lisa Brando and make all the necessary changes. Thanks, again. Bluhy23 (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I need some help , it's urgent! I don't know what happened while I was editing the infobox. I added three citations for the children, and for some reason it didn't work. I need someone to help me fix it, thank you. Bluhy23 (talk) 19:15, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

The citations and sources I wanted to add are these : [33] [34] [35] Bluhy23 (talk) 20:39, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Nevermind, problem solved. Bluhy23 (talk) 20:41, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

You really only need one source if they all agree there were 11 children. If the reliable sources disagree, I would put "at least 11" in the infobox then talk about the discrepancy in the article, without necessarily naming the children. Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

The biographies, for sure, (at least the ones I've read)agree he had 11 children. I think the reliable sources too, like the ones I have provided (There are more reliable sources that say 11) His daughter Rebecca confirms in this video [36] that they are 8 (i.e. 8 biological). So maybe we'll just say 11 with one source? Bluhy23 (talk) 20:55, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I have restored the mention of Stefano as their was no consensus to remove it from the text body, the discussion here and the edit summary only mentioned the infobox. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

It's fine, but I have some doubt regarding the NY Daily News article you cited, as I see so many inaccuracies (for example, the author says that Rebecca is Tarita Teriipaia's daughter, when in fact, she is Movita Castaneda's. He says that Miko was born in October, 1960, when in reality he was born in February 1961. Same thing with Petra who was born in 1972 , not 1970) They might be very tiny details, but even those should be accurate when reporting and publishing a good article. (It could be that the author isn't credible enough). Is the Desert News a reliable source? Bluhy23 (talk) 22:14, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Deseret News published that article but it was syndicated by Scripps Howard News Service of E. W. Scripps Company, and the author of that article is Patrick Butters who was an editor at The Washington Times [[37] Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:25, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

NY Daily News is borderline but has generally been considered ok at WP:RSN. Kendall-K1 (talk) 22:27, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Blackehart said the following regarding the rumour that he is Marlon Brando's son (when asked about it): "I have no relation to Marlon Brando that I know of, anyway. There's a lot of speculation, it's something that started on the Internet. Those things kinda have a way of running out of control. I tried to stop them where I could, or I used to try, and after a while, you can't answer a million emails a day." [38] He is confirming that he is not Marlon Brando's son. He put this outrageous rumour to rest 11 years ago.Bluhy23 (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Should we keep Blackehart in the text? Bluhy23 (talk) 23:53, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Of course we should. The article mentions that it is disputed though. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm Ok with that, but I would suggest a minor change in the phrasing of the sentence. In my opinion, Stephen Blackehart has been reported to be the son of Brando. However, Blackehart denies/disputes (either one) this claim reads better than the one in the article. Do you agree, Emir? Bluhy23 (talk) 00:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

I took out what I consider to be the confusing part. I would not want to add "However", which is a word we usually avoid per MOS:OPED. I would be open to further changes. I think your phrasing is better than the passive version "This claim is disputed". Kendall-K1 (talk) 06:00, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

I am all for better wordings like the one suggested by Bluy23, but I think that due to the claim about Blackehart being better sourced it should be included in this article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:00, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

I've simply changed Stephen Blackehart has been reported to be the son of Marlon to Stephen Blackehart has been reported to be the son of Brando. Bluhy23 (talk) 17:43, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Marlons Ethnicity and Genealogy missing

Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

First of all Marlon is a common Jewish first name and Brando is a Jewish surname(brandt). Both of his parents are of Jewish heritage.--2605:6000:3D10:100:211A:8044:929B:34D1 (talk) 20:44, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you have a source? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:16, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Marlon Brando was not of Jewish heritage. He was of German, Dutch, Irish and English background. He was raised as a Christian Scientist (Christian Science was his mother's religion) and became an atheist later in life. The information about his ethnicity and religion in the article is correct. Bluhy23 (talk) 02:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

His original last name was Brandau not Brandt. Neither one of his parent was of Jewish heritage. Bluhy23 (talk) 02:41, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Stop making claims that aren't true, IP address. -- Jibal (talk) 05:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Legacy and influence in the lead

Latest comment: 6 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

Mungo Kitsch, regarding this, I understand your point, but it is fine to mention this in the lead if well-supported by sources. Per WP:PEACOCK, it's just a matter of going about it the right way. I see that the final paragraph of the lead addresses his legacy, though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Flyer22 Reborn. While valid enough anywhere else, I believe the sentence, "He is universally regarded as one of the greatest... actors of all time," is not encyclopedic. While I am aware that he, as an actor and social activist, had excessive cultural influence (and still does), the quoted sentence itself is subjective and even sensational.

And regarding your point for "going about it the right way", you're very much right. The mention of honors from the American Film Institute, Time Magazine, and the Hollywood Walk of Fame are objective, verifiable reflections of his influence. While I, as an art observer, am personally wary of such designations, my interpretation for encyclopedic recounting of one person's legacy puts more stock in these and other noteworthy accolades (or of notable actors he is known to have influenced), than with catch-all generalities and vague culturally inherited insinuations.

In summary, it's not the sentiment expressed in that part of the article that I necessarily disagree with, just the verbiage. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 05:51, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Mungo Kitsch, yes, I understand. If the line was sourced to a reliable source explicitly stating that, I wouldn't mind at all, though. In that case, I would still rather it be placed in the final paragraph as a topic sentence, to start off what the final paragraph states, but I wouldn't mind it if reliably sourced. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:33, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, except for the "universally" part. I would trade that for "often" if supported by a source. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I thought about your commentary, and decided a compromise would be fine. I re-added the statement (or, at least, a statement with a similar gist), while adding two sources that reflect the information. Feel free to add sources, or rephrase, if/when you deem fit. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 01:23, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Mungo Kitsch, I wasn't suggesting that such content be added; I was simply stating that if the line had been supported by a reliable source, I wouldn't have minded something similar to it, and noted where I'd prefer it to be placed. But thanks for the addition and followup edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:51, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Rita Moreno?

Latest comment: 6 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Didn't Rita Moreno have a long mistress relation w/ Brando & even have 1 or more children by him? I don't see her in the personal life section. (PeacePeace (talk) 07:30, 7 March 2018 (UTC))

You meant Rita Moreno, and yes, that is all confirmed in her article. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:49, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes they had a long term relationship but they never had any children together. Bluhy23 (talk) 03:01, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Rita Moreno has only one child, a daughter, Fernanda Luisa Gordon, by her husband of 45 years, Leonard Gordon. Bluhy23 (talk) 03:08, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Allegations of Rape Section

Latest comment: 4 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion

Why is there a section about this in the article? Please read the transcript of Maria Schneider's interview carefully. She said she "felt a little raped" but there was absolutely no penetration whatsoever and the infamous scene was simulated. Bernardo Bertolucci also disputed the allegation and said that his words were taken out of context. [39]Bluhy23 (talk) 00:25, 26 March 2018 (UTC) Some sources to consider:[40] [41] [42] [43] [44] Bluhy23 (talk) 00:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Remember, Wikipedia is not a website for gossip. Bluhy23 (talk) 00:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

After removal by a topic banned editor it was restored by NinjaRobotPirate. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:16, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

How did it get added to the article without any discussion on the talk page? It is very important to note that Bernardo Bertolucci strongly denied the accusation and that Maria Schneider insisted that the scene was simulated. Also, Marlon Brando's son, Miko Brando, denied that his father was involved in any wrongdoing. There is no evidence of the alleged sexual abuse taking place. Bluhy23 (talk) 19:36, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Schneider's interview should be read carefully. She did it with the Daily Mail in 2011. [45] Bluhy23 (talk) 19:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Correction. The interview was done in 2007. Bluhy23 (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

The topic-banned editor wasn't allowed to remove this section, but anyone else can. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:26, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the text still says that the butter scene was allegedly "nonconsensual", which leaves the false impression that there was an actual sex act. -- Jibal (talk) 05:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)