Talk:Marocchinate

Sources cleanup- sourches

Augustin-Leon Guillaume's Goums in a Modern War is listed twice, once as an unused source? Also, the link to the buffalo list serv article is no good.199.1.137.105 (talk)

The Juin's speech - sourches

Source [1]
Quote:
All'alba del giorno scelto per l'attacco, il 14 maggio 1944, il generale Juin inoltrò agli uomini della 2ª divisione di fanteria (gen. Dody) e della 4ª divisione da montagna (gen. Guillaume) il seguente proclama: Soldati! Questa volta non è solo la libertà delle vostre terre che vi offro se vincerete questa battaglia. Alle spalle del nemico vi sono donne, case, c'è un vino tra i migliori del mondo, c'è dell'oro. Tutto ciò sarà vostro se vincerete. Dovrete uccidere i tedeschi fino all'ultimo uomo e passare ad ogni costo. Quello che vi ho detto e promesso mantengo. Per cinquanta ore sarete i padroni assoluti di ciò che troverete al di là del nemico. Nessuno vi punirà per ciò che farete, nessuno vi chiederà conto di ciò che prenderete" (3). (3)Luciano Garibaldi, L'assalto alle ciociare, in periodico "Noi", 1994.
Translation:
: At the down (...) of may, 14, 1944, general Juin delivered to the men of the 2nd Infantry Division (Gen. Dody) and to the men of the 4th Mountain Division (gen. Guillame), the following proclame "Soldiers! This time it not only the freedom of your land, I offer you, if you will win the battle. Beyond the shuolderbacks of the enemy, the are women, homes, there is one of the better wine in the world, there is some gold. All those things will be yours, if you will win. You will ought kill the German till the last man, and to pass at any cost. What I have told you and promised you, I will mantain. For fifty hours you will be the abosolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. Nobody will punish you for what you will do, nobody will question you for what you will bring" (3) Luciano Garibaldi, The Assult against the Ciocaria Women, in the magazin "Noi", 1994.

Source [2]:

Il generale Juin, al termine della battaglia di Cassino, diede ai suoi “goumiers” (da “goum”, reparto militare marocchino arruolato nel medesimo villaggio e clan) carta bianca per due giorni, come premio della vittoria che implicava il diritto di vita e di morte sulle popolazioni civili, il furto dei loro beni e la violenza sulle donne. Era stato questo l’incentivo che aveva convinto i marocchini a combattere per i francesi andando all’assalto delle posizioni nemiche alla testa dei reparti alleati. Così per due giorni e due notti razziarono, violentarono, uccisero. Stuprarono donne e bambine, dagli otto agli ottant’anni, obbligando padri e mariti ad assistervi.

Translation:

General Juin, after the end of the battle, give to his "guomiers (...) complete freedom (in it 'carta bianca' = white paper) for two days, as a reward for the victory; this is implied the right of life or death on the civilian populations, the stealing of their assets, the violence against the women. This was the benefit to convince the Moroccans to fight for the Frenchs and to assult the enemy positions in front of the Allies detachments. So, for two days and two nights, they plundered, the used violence, they killed. They raped women and she-children and they forced fathers and husbands to look.

I doubt he adressed his troops in Italian, so this is a translation of what source? If the general is quoted, he is to be quoted from the original, otherwise you have to say someone else says the general said this. There are some points that can be translated from French with a totally different meaning. Wandalstouring 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Source [2]:

"La furia bestiale che si abbatté sulle campagne e sui villaggi italiani, specie al Sud, dopo lo sbarco alleato ad Anzio e l’avanzata su Roma nella primavera del 1944, è ancora in parte sconosciuta, salvo che alle 60.000 donne, adolescenti e bambine che ne furono le vittime." This is not quite the style of a report on facts only. Wandalstouring 17:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

TO BE CONTINUED --Giovanni Giove 17:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you have some scientific sources? A history professor writing about this? Wandalstouring 17:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Facts

First of all, congratulations to Giovanni for starting this article on a (relatively) not-well known campaign in the English-speaking world. Also to his bravery for presenting unflattering facts. I do, though, have to wonder about the veracity of claims such as mass male-on-male rape and bestiality and would like to see some direct quotes and references provided for these claims. For that reason, I've added the dispute tag to the article.Michael Dorosh^Talk 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I understand that the first thing I ought to do, is to translate a scientific paper. That what I'm going to do, piece after piece, when I have time. I'll stop other answers for the moment--Giovanni Giove 23:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't that well know?--41.151.109.65 (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

A "scientific" paper

Translation of [3].

Tommaso BARIS

Montecassino 1944, “Scatenate i marocchini” (“Unleash the Moroccans”)

From “Millenovecento”, n. 14, December 2003.

Tommaso Baris is a Ph.D. student in contemporary history at the faculty of Political Sciences, at the University of Rome "La Sapienza". His master degree thesis "Bellic experience and social changes. The impact of the war on the civil population of the Frosinone area 1943-1948" won the first edition of the "Luigi Micheletti" award. About the same subject he wrote the book "Fra due fuochi" (Between two fires), edit by Laterza.

In the spring of 1944, the allies (omitted facts about the attacks)....

During their overwhelming push on, for about two weeks, from may, 15 to the begging of Juin, nearly halved by the German resistance (at the end of the battle Goumiers were lowered at about 7000 men), French troops lapsed into an impressive series of plunders murders and rapes in all the conquered towns, mainly against limited groups of people, or single person, until it was ordered them to stop their march in Valmontone. The orderly nature of the violence and the substantial assent of the commanders and the officers, spread the belief of the liberty of action given to the colonial soldier against the civilians, despite the sanctions provided by the military codes for the mentioned crimes. In a memorandum memorandum of the Presidenza del Consiglio (First Minister Cabinet), the behavior of the French officer was hardly stigmatized because «far from to intervene and to repress those crimes, they instead attacked furiously the civilian population that tried to oppose» (3).

«Officers let to Moroccans a pretty good liberty of action » and «in general they preferred to ignore e somebody told to the irregulars Moorccans that they had the right of prey».

A note of Juin, 25, 1944 of the General Command of the Carabinieri Corp of Free Italy, delivered to the First Minister Cabinet reported that in the ‘comuni’ (towns) of Giuliano di Roma, Patrica, Ceccano, Supino, Morolo, e Sgurgola, in three days only (from juin,2 to the 5), 418 sexual violence, of which 3 against men, 29 murders , 517 stealing, committed by Moroccans soldier, who «enraged against those populations freezing them. A very high number of women, girls and she-children (…) were raped, often repeatedly, by soldier possessed by an unbridled sexual and sadist exaltation, several times they forced the parents and the husbands to attend the slaughters. Always by the Morroccan soldiers, several citizens were plundered of all their wealths and of their livestocks. Several homes were plundered and often they were devasted and burned.» (5).

WORK IN PROGRESS-TO BE CONTINUED--Giovanni Giove 23:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not exactly a scientific paper, but "Esperienza bellica e mutamenti sociali. L'impatto della guerra sulla popolazione civile del Frusinate 1943-1948" is. Could you translate this preferably. Yes, the author of this paper has a scientific degree and furthermore it contradicts the opinion expressed in the article that French officers did nothing, from an Italian perspective they did not enough. Wandalstouring 08:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

References

Some references that might be worth to check out:

• Monte Cassino: The Hardest Fought Battle of World War II by Matthew Parker
• Monte Cassino: The Story of the Most Controversial Battle of World War II by David Hapgood
• War in Italy 1943-1945: A Brutal Story by Richard Lamb
• Cassino: The Hollow Victory: The Battle for Rome January-June 1944 by John Ellis
• The Path to Victory: The Mediterranean Theater in World War II by Douglas Porch

I will personally read Parkers book because my local library as an ex. I have checked it out on www.amazon.com and according to the index in the book it contains information about the Goumiers action during the battle. Carl Logan 09:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It is about the Goumiers action after the battle of Monte Cassino. Wandalstouring 09:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the book? Carl Logan 10:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I just wanted to remind you, that this article is not about the significant deeds of the Goumiers in this battle. Wandalstouring 12:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the index entry about the Goumiers have to sub sections: "German propaganda targeted at" and "as rapists and looters" I think both have relevance to the article. Carl Logan 12:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Two women

Wandalstouring insist to add this comment to the link about "Two women":(about soldiers raping Italian women in a church, no reference to this incident in the description of the plot given with this link -> no source).
IMHO it is a nonsens. I suggest that is enough to see the movie, to see some Moroccan solidier raping the mother (Sophia Loren) and the daughter. They wear their typical uniform and no mistake are possible. In any case, in the other external links, it is possible to read about the connection between the movie and the mass rape in Ciociaria. If you need a translation, just ask me.--Giovanni Giove 15:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Just give an official English description of the plot stating Goumiers raping. Wearing a Goumier uniform does not mean it is a Goumier (other French troops participated as our English sources state and at this time uniforms were a mess in the French army). Wandalstouring 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Here [ http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1540-6563.00026?journalCode=hisn#search=%22goumiers%20sophia%20loren%22] And it's also the "scientific" work. If you can download it.--Giovanni Giove 16:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a link to an abstract. So what? If a common user can not access it, it is no source. Read the guidelines. I think you spent some time in an university. As long as you write "scientific" like this it looks rather ironic and enhances doubts on the value of all your contributions. So far. Wandalstouring 18:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

And what the heck does the pope have to do with this film? Did he play in it? I think you are a bit confused.

1. Here it is about providing a source stating that Goumiers raped in this film. Preferably in English.

2. Your overall articles lacks some verifiable sources, while you repeatedly use the content of one website. As some research has shown there are some substantial critics to your presentation and you failed to provide the different points of view. (Take a look at the abstract of the English source). Wandalstouring 18:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Look in the link. It speaks about la Ciociara and Sophia Loren and the Goumiers. OK? I spent time at university and so? But sorry, I'm not an historian. My article has all the sources that you want.... yes in Italian, I'm sorry. But there are aslo official acts of the Itlian parlament. I know I've not quoted them well, but I wrote a STUB, not an article, and sorry, I've no so much time. Anyway, what do you want? DO you think I work with fantasy? OK, came with me. Came in Cassino. I will introduce you the people, you will talk with them, ad I did. You will hear, you will know.--Giovanni Giove 21:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"The Historian

Volume 65 Page 403 - Winter 2002 doi:10.1111/1540-6563.00026 Volume 65 Issue 2

A Question of Race: Pope Pius XII and the "Coloured Troops" in Italy

Robert G. Weisbord & Michael W. Honhart"

That is all I can read. No Goumiers and no Sophia Loren is mentioned. The rest is not free info. You seem to lack some basics. No point of view rule means you present no point of view and try to work with sources from all sides. You failed this essential rule of wikipedia. Still you are very confused. Nobody ever doubted the existance of these rapes, but there are substantial reasons to doubt your presentation. I am sure there is an article in the Italian wikipedia and they will be grateful for your contribution. Furthermore they can judge the quality of your Italian sources. If this article reaches FA quality in Italian, simply translate it. Wandalstouring 20:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims

Let's assume these claims are true: 7000 Goumiers survive the battle. They are given 50 hours to rape and pillage. In that time they rape 60,000 women, children, elderly, and animals. This gives the average Goumier a rape rate of 4 rapes/day! If one assumes that a few of these men didn't participate because they feared retribution, were decent people or disciplined soldiers, or were too physically exhausted after mountain warfare to find and rape four unique victims per day, then the statistics become even more unbelievable. Personally I think that a group of men that is capable of taking mountains filled with well-entrenched German defenders can't be all bad soldiers, or human garbage. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources is being stretched rather far given the "outlandishness" of the claims and the fact that we are relying almost exclusively on Italian sources. We also know that Axis propaganda capitalized on the Allies use of non-white troops.

I am going to be bold and delete some things. Haber 18:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a possible English source listed. Some months ago some English speaking editors even promised to research this, but well nothing happened.Concerning whether or not the Goumiers are bad people your idea is basically unsourced POV as much as the rape claims. Wandalstouring 05:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

My comments on this talk page are not sourced, but I think they prove that the claims are "extraordinary". Come on... raping animals? Where we really need to worry about sources is on the article page itself. Haber 13:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The article was loaded w/ blatant unsourced POV edits. Most of the article sections or paragraphs are still being unsourced. I had tagged some with fact tags waiting for sources. At the absence of sources those editions would be deleted. Let's just give it some time (a few weeks i suppose?) and see what would happen. -- Szvest Ω ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 14:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to wait. I put the big template for this article several months ago and discussed it with the original editor. take a look here and into the archives of my talk page. I think that is enough justification. But I want no more unsourced speculations whether goumiers did or didn't do any war crimes. Source it or delete it. At least one English source with a short description is available. Wandalstouring 14:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. Please review. -- Szvest Ω ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 14:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks OK. Some more sourcing and this becomes a real article. Wandalstouring 15:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Much better. Thanks. Haber 15:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. By the way, i am not sure if you have heard of the movie Indigènes. -- Szvest Ω ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 16:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks interesting. Maybe I'll check it out. Haber 22:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I for my part find the claims of 4 rapes per day per soldier less extraordinary then the claims of gassing and burning 20.000 Jews per day in Auschwitz. 41.150.81.179 (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I conducted an interview with Sicilian-American immigrants who claim that "colored" soldiers raped nuns in the convent of SS Salvatore in Corleone, Sicily on July 21, 1943. Given the sources found on the 3rd infantry division where the 15th regiment is attached and moves through the town on their way to Palermo I am assuming that this is the group. I cannot find any sources on this incident online so I would assume this is speculation for now.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.91.175 (talk) 23:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

references and sourcing

Has anything in this article even improved over the past half year? Giovanni has today added a first english language source supposedly supporting his thesis (in fact Massacres and Atrocities accuses Morrocans, Tunisians, Algerians and Senegalese to have been involved). The problem is that I'm not at all certain about the reliability of that source (its author doesn't cite a single source). As it stands the entire article seems to be relying on Italian language sources which I for one can't read. Funny part, if I understand things correctly the Italian language wikipedia article is a translation of this one...--Caranorn 13:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Getting worse, I just removed three supposed new sources including a blog and a forum which are of course unacceptable as sources.--Caranorn 14:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Can i add Moroccan sources in Arabic? Nah, joking. Gio, please do not remove comments that way. They talk about the subject and are totally in line w/ talk pages guidelines. Cheers. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope you are kiddig: it seems that somebody else removed 3 useful link with a quite poor pretest. I finnally point out that today I've hadded several *English* link, and one *French* link, quite useful for furhter developments of the article. So, be serious. By the way, I hope you are not trying to say that this rape was never committed, that would be negationism. I suggest to anybody that don't believe, just because he never heard, to have a walk aorund Cassino, to offer a glass of wine to some old men, and to listen. That what I have done. Best regards.--Giovanni Giove 22:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Gio, we are not discussing neither here nor at the article whether it is a fact or a hoax. I personally don't care and i make no judgments. The point is about this particular part of the WP:V policy (Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source). We are also poiting out to this other particular part of the same policy (Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources.)

Where is the "references" section? I only see "External links". The first one is about a parliamentary night session where they are talking about pensions for women having Marocchinate childs. Nothing particular. The Indymedia link talk about Goumiers cutting noses of Nazi German troops and talk briefly in the passage about the number of Italians being raped and states that no one knows how many were raped, but the number is probably in the thousands. The article is more explicit and give us the age range of the victims but fails to provide references or citing. The Cassino pdf is considered as unsourced. His second link bases claims on a movie. So again we question the verifiability WP:V of the dalvolturnoacassino.it.

Yes, you've just added two other external links. One is just a youtube video of the Italian movie w/ a blatant french POV title. The other is a Search link to google books which is important but please be precise and cite the claims. Linking the article to a set of external links is not allowed as per WP:NOT#MIRROR.

Please do some deep research and cite. You can't have a section called "The mass rape in Ciocaria" when nothing is cited. You can't have a controversial topic w/ no verifiable references. That's the bottom line. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 10:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

1) Blogs are not considered acceptable sources, 2) likewise forums are not considered acceptable sources, 3) the third link I removed was about a fiction book... So you can't claim I removed 3 useful link with a quite poor pretest. Anyhow, as Fayssal said, I don't think anyone is disputing that these crimes took place, what is disputed is that these were ordered (I still haven't seen a French language version of Juin's supposed order) and that these crimes were that widespread. So far this entire article sounds like racist claims (note I don't think you are racist, rather that the original reports probably were racially motivated) against North African combatants. Unfortunately many of your supposed sources are worthless, others are unintelligible to me at least, only two actual references are currently linked into the article. What I find particularly astonishing is that if this topic is of such notoriety in Italy that it doesn't have it's own article on Italian language wikipedia instead of the apparent translation of this English article.--Caranorn 12:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

1) Blogs can be a good source to have an idea about the problem, it was enough to move in another paragraph.

2) The same

3) Next time be more honest, meanwhile be ashamed of yourself.

4) My 'supposed' sources are not blogs, but links where you can find excellent articles, such as articles of history reasearches. The are a long speech done in a National Parlament. Are your prejudices so strong, to deny the evidence? There is no racism: that is happened. We can discuss of the number of the victims, of the single episodes, of the reason of violence. But there is no discussion of a possible "allegation" of the rape.--Giovanni Giove 16:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

What's disputed is among other elements the mass rape and accordingly is also the place where the term alleged has been added to the article. Note, Pico's book is fiction, that is a novel or even romance based in part on history (or rather recollection of events which can be distorted etc.). I did some quick google searches yesterday (in French and English, maybe I should add German sometime today) but found very little (but including a link revealing Pico as fiction). Note that stories like those about the Marrochniate exist in many European countries, usually about African-American troops, but also quite often about French ones, but in many cases these prove to be either isolated cases, rumours or pure wartime propaganda.--Caranorn 18:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I just went through my browser history to find the link showing that Pico:The White paper Act is indeed fiction. [4]. --Caranorn 18:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I've just added the necessary tags. If you agree to leave the article as it is (after the tags) than no problem. I just can't be more patient repeating ourselves. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 13:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Already deleted. Stop to introduce your pushing POV. That shameful. There is no allegarion and don't repeat yourself, there is nothing you can repeat.--Giovanni Giove 19:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni I'd like to remind you that are close to violating the triple revert rule and have engaged in personal attacks twice now in your edit summaries. Not to mention removal of tags added by Fayssal to improve this article. Please cease these disruptive edits.--Caranorn 18:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You are violating... your tag is tottaly deprived of fundament, so that I'm justing removing your vandalism from the article. The rape has happened, if you like it or not. You simpply ignore the sources. You must have proper reason to introduce tags. YOu have not them, and you don't want to illustrate you reasons. So stop to vandalize!--Giovanni Giove 18:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge I have violated nothing. I didn't add any tags, Fayssal did, he explained his reasons earlier in this thread. There clearly is a content dispute in this article turning around a lack of neutrality on your part, which is why the NPOV tag was added to the article. yet instead of trying to discuss how the problems can be fixed you have removed that tag thrice. Worse you've started calling Fayssal and me (I assume you are attacking both of us even if you keep mixing up who added a tag and who didn't) negationists and vandals.--Caranorn 20:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You re-added the tag, not Fayssal. Fayssal added it without reasons. Your claim was that there were not English sources, now you have them, and someone very good. If you want to add the tag, it's on you to tell why the sources are wrong, because acctualy they appear to be trustable (not to say the Italian ones). You and Fayssal want to negate the evidence, that a Mass Rape occurred, but you have no argument for this negation. --Giovanni Giove 21:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Get a printed English book from a historian as source or let it be. Wandalstouring 07:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Here it's the work of an historian, the English abstract is clear.--Giovanni Giove 18:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay I just found an article by that author (Tommaso Baris) in French, still nothing in English. The article itself is unfortunately not free, I just ordered a copy and plan to read it through tomorrow (printing out right now). There is also a short English language synopsis. The link is: [5]. I couldn't find out much more about said author, just that he graduated relatively recently, but that need not be a bad thing.--Caranorn 20:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi i found a reference regarding to stuttgart in the eisenhower archives however i wasnt able to find any sort of copy of the microfilms . It at least shows that the us-army after they took over stuttgart from the colonials (called stuttgart data ) investigated the alleged mass rapes . followed by another report about the behavior of french col. troops in stuttgart 1945. of course its no real proof of what happened there until someone gets hold of these microfilms but it at least shows that not nothing happened . Acc. to the count of the microfilms this seems to be quite a lot of material. [6] . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiras72 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Baris source

I've now read through the Baris source (the above mentioned article). I'd say that this is indeed a serious historian and in essence he places serious doubt on the current status of this article.

• Baris is very clear that Juin never issued a statement allowing Razias etc. before the battle of Casino. Juin's statement involved exalting Free France. The falsified statement as currently in the article seems to go back to 1965 and the Associazione nazionale vittime civili di guerra, it has since been distributed by a number of unreliable sources including the Italian extreme Right ([7]] and [[8]] are two of links Baris cites).

• Juin later (May 24 and again May 27) condemned the looting and raping committed by some of his troops. He also made it clear that the crimes could be punished by death penalty. On the other hand both Juin and Alexander recognised that the junior officer corps was unwilling or unable to make an end to these crimes.

• The rapes and looting were not limited to the Battle of Casino and accordingly the article should deal with all these cases during the Italian Campaign. Among others Baris lists the Elba landings as another example (191 rapes, 20 attempted rapes against adult women, 1 attempted rape against a girl child).

• The rapes and looting also wasn't limited to a 50 hour timeframe, rather such rapes occurred throughout the campaign, generally along the frontline (explaining that mythical 50 hour timeframe, the local experience being limited to the time front line troops spent in an area before they moved on to continue fighting). At no time ever was there a stop to conduct such lootings, rather the forces were in constant movement (exception Elba where they remained in position for 29 days).

• No exact data exists concerning the number of victims. Some villages and towns were never visited by Carabinieri or other officials gathering information, other investigations were conducted under political pressure (attempts to downplay Italian warcrimes in occupied territories by comparing them to French ones) adn resulted in false claims. Baris estimates that the number of victims of rape is around 12,000 (number forwarded by the Unione Donne Italiane), the same report also listed 60,000 material damages (I assume theft and looting).

• While Baris doesn't explicitly state that the Oral Memory of these events has been manipulated it neverless becomes clear when cautiously reading his text. The 50 hour myth is probably the best example, others are stereotypes about Colonial troops (Baris repeatedly brings up statements comparing coloured troops to wild beasts, including pre WWII material concerning Italian Colonial troops and WWI material...). American reports likewise seem to reflect such racist views about Colonials as nothing more then beasts designed for fighting and looting.

• Baris on the other hand sees the responsibility for the various acts of violence during the Italian Campaign with the junior command and on the political level. The Colonial troops being no more or less then tools created to suppress colonial unrest and revolt by any means. When the colonial troops (particularly the Goums) were transferred to Italy they continued waging war the way they'd been trained for since 1908, that is to repress the civil population. The junior command structure of those units was either unwilling or unable to change this attitude during the war. On the other hand Baris does not seem to believe that the Goums were sent to Italy with the express design to conduct these crimes (as some accuse French and/or Allied Command of doing). To the contrary French command is said to have tried to stamp out violence against civilians (some 360 troops were court martialled during the Italian Campaign).

In short, the major differences between Baris' account and our current article is that 1) the rapes and looting was not intentional or ordered by authorities, 2) the rapes and looting occured throughout the Italian Campaign and always on the frontline and on the move, 3) French authorities recognised the rapes and looting as criminal acts at all times. Unfortunately the article is in such a state that it should be rewritten without considering the old version. I had at first planned to just correct any errors, but that is impossible without changing the very essence of the article (Marocchinate is not a limited regional phenomenon based on an order by Juin). And I don't feel up to the task to rewrite the article from scratch particularly with the hostile attitude Giovanni has shown over the past week (what's the point of improving an article if it will be reverted by someone intent on pushing their POV).

A last note, Baris' research seems to be very recent and largely based on oral accounts of the atrocities. Until more research (other historians, preferably on documentary base) is made this will always be a sensible subject.--Caranorn 11:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I've no problem with the above claims. I left the therm "allegedly", regarding Juin's speech and I agree that is an 'alleged' speech. Furthermore I've already written that the article (far to be perfect) needs to be improved; but nobody can deny the basic fact: a mass raped IS occurred, so that is no possible to call it an "alleged" rape. That's all.--Giovanni Giove 14:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't deny for a minute that terrible things happen in war, and American and British troops probably did a lot of things (including rape) that we prefer to forget, but nonethless these stories have always struck me as hugely exagerrated in oral memory, tinged with an obvious hint of racism - and also incidentally appealing to folk memories of mediaeval/early modern Arab/Turkish raids on Italy. Unlike the Soviet mass rapes in Germany in 1945, or the Japanese in China, which are perfectly well-documented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.40.196.103 (talk) 19:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

no, if you read the accounts of the witnesses it is striking that they blame the French and the Americans.--93.150.194.234 (talk) 11:06, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

"2) the rapes and looting occured throughout the Italian Campaign and always on the frontline and on the move". Well this is incorrect. Baris is very clear that "dans le Latium méridional, les violences sexuelles perpétrées par les troupes alliées ont eu une dimension massive, faisant de la situation italienne un cas unique." Baris describes the violences in other areas just to underline the uniqueness of Latium (for example elsewhere the guilty were immediately taken and punished).
"3) French authorities recognised the rapes and looting as criminal acts at all times." This only after protests and complaints. During those days their attitude was of indifference and ambivalence (see Baris' exam of Juin's 'condemnation'message sent ten days after the facts: "Vu la teneur de ce message, il n’est pas surprenant que les autorités alliées aient trouvé inopportun d’envoyer ce texte au gou-vernement italien, bien que sa rédaction soit intervenue après sollicitation des commandements anglo-américains".
"To the contrary French command is said to have tried to stamp out violence against civilians (some 360 troops were court martialled during the Italian Campaign)." Again Baris is very clear that the French command intervenes late and reluctantly.--93.150.194.234 (talk) 11:20, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Another point made by Baris is worth mentioning, since it relates to the earlier "Extraordinary claims" talk section here. Baris explains that the period the violence lasted for was much longer than several days (the 50 hours mentioned in that talk section is derived from the false statement alleged to have been made by Juin. Google translate of text from p18: "Beginning on May 20, they were concentrated between May 23 and 25. It was not until the end of the month, around May 29, that they diminished".

About rape reference

I hope a certified Parliament act is enough as reference![9]--Shardan 15:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Shardan. Much appreciated. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 15:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It was already inserted (since a long time...)--Giovanni Giove 14:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Right, because every word spoken in the Chamber of Deputies is absolute truth. Rossi was head of the Italian Women Association. Her POV is heavily biased. Better to use modern historical research on this topic. 92.146.194.233 (talk) 15:21, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Fascist and racist propaganda

The true numbers about the French Army crimes in Italy are now very well known since the Military Archives in Paris ( S.H.D ) [10] were open and everyone can go and check by himself. The archives reveal that only 360 men were judged and that only 125 women were raped. So all other numbers from the Italian sources including Unione Donne Italiane are a pure propaganda. Dont forget they were racist and that they were allied with German who killed millions of people only because of their race... So the presence of thousands of africans who were moreover muslims on their territory was for them was a real humiliation. The German used the same kind of propaganda between 1919 and 1922 with the black soldiers who were in the french army (Schwarze Schmach).

We know that conflict creates conditions in which soldiers commit rape and murder. Why should French soldiers in 1944 be an exception? But in comparison to other allied armies, those numbers are very low :

J.Robert Tilly mentions in his book (2007) "TAKEN BY FORCE : Rape and American GIs in Europe during WWII" that more than 14.000 women were raped by GI's during the French and German campaign [11]. For the Russian historians speak about 2 millions... including 130.000 during the only Battle of Berlin[12].--90.28.253.64 11:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry for you, but after the war, the mass rape was investigated and remembered, not by the "Fascist", but by the "Italian Communist Party" (the "Unione Donne Italiane" was communist), and AFTER the war, so it is not propaganda. The try to justify the rape as "something of normal", seems just an attempt to minimize the facts. The "360 men" are just the men who were sentenced, a small part of the total (such as the "125 women") . Even if compared to similar episodes what happened is impressive, because it happened in small area, and in few days.--Giovanni Giove 09:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Our little (apparently) French friend here is willing to believe whatever "historians speak" regarding anyone who hand't fought for France, but won't accept anything but Military Archives in Paris for those who had. There is little doubt that "French logic" is no less of an oxymoron than "German sense of humour".62.212.89.14 (talk) 13:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the fascist anf the racist is you! Inform yourself better Mr 90.28.253.64,Bottino di guerra - La storia delle donne violentate nel 1944 in Ciociaria dall'esercito dei "liberatori" La Storia siamo Noi - Rai Educational. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.241.184 (talk) 10:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

mmm... always italian sources or internet racist propaganda.... not very reliable. Check the french archives established from the 5th US Army instead.

And even if the 12.000 rapes during the year 1944 mentionned by Unione Donne Italiane were true numbers, they are still low in comparaison to other GI's and Russian rapes. And most of them were committed by German and GI's. That was confirmed by the british journalist Marsland Gander in his book After these Many quests, MacDonald (1949) : "the only rapes I remember was committed not my moroccans but by GIs". Dont forget that German and most of GI's were racist (racial segregation in the us army) at this time and it was very easy for them to accuse the Africans...--90.36.154.247 18:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Italian sources are not to be believed but by the same token then French sources are not to be believed. :::@[User:90.36.154.247|90.36.154.247] I'm sure the people raped would be able to tell the nationality of who raped them. It seems this is a very modern argument and quite sad really; Rape is bad but it is an inevitable outcome of lawless times but Racism is the worst crime of all - I do not agree. One thing is for sure the local populace were terrified of the Morocans, but not so of the British or Polish troops and not even GIs This could indeed be racism (although being southern italy) many Morocans would be similar in appearance to the locals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yitzak99 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Massenvergewaltigungen bei der Einnahme von Stuttgart und Pforzheim sowie Freudenstadt

Bei der Einnahme von Stuttgart und Pforzheim sowie Freudenstadt kam es zu Massenvergewaltigungen. Im württembergischen Freudenstadt missbrauchten französisch-marokkanische Besatzungssoldaten Bewohnerinnen des Ortes tagelang. Die Ärztin Renate Lutz gab an, allein bei ihr seien über 600 vergewaltigte Frauen zur Behandlung gewesen.

Die Lazarettstadt Freudenstadt wurde nicht von deutschen Truppen verteidigt und war zur offenen Stadt erklärt worden. Dennoch erlitt die Stadt einen schweren französischen Bombenangriff. Französische Truppen beschossen sie am 16. und 17. April 1945 mit Spreng- und Brandgranaten; dann drangen Soldaten des 3. Marokkanischen Spahi-Regiments unter Major (später General) Christian de Castries kampflos in Freudenstadt ein. Sie und nachfolgende französische Einheiten plünderten bis zu fünf Tage. Sie legten zahlreiche Brände (darunter auch am Rathaus), verboten das Löschen und hinderten deutsche Löschwillige mit Waffengewalt daran. Klagen aus der Zivilbevölkerung erwiderte man Zeitzeugen zufolge, „es sei Krieg, Freudenstadt müsse drei Tage brennen“. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.142.92.18 (talk) 21:59, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

It's hardly a definitive statement of anything that 'only 360 men were judged and only 100+ women were raped' etc. How can you be a serious enthusiast of military history and not realize the contextual perspective of survivors of war-crimes? When it comes to rape in war, WOMEN SELDOM COME FORWARD. Especially further back in history, even today - without a war - women often do not come forward to authorities. Even less would report the attacks following an advance of a military force, who are they going to tell? For all they know, they'd be reporting the crime to the same collective that attacked them in the first place - I am sure a racial component would make victims hesitate to advertise the attacks even further, and the possibility of reprisal - unsanctioned from French commanders but undertaken by the attackers themselves to silence the victims - would contribute even more-so. I'm not saying every wild accusation is true, but it's absolutely bereft of context to hide behind statistics like this. 2601:87:4400:AF2:FD12:4C2E:6FB2:23DB (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

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Days of Glory

I removed the part Integrita added about Days of Glory (2006 film) ignoring Marocchinate. First of all there was no source given, and this isn't mentioned on the French or Italian pages of the film, or marocchinate. More importantly, the same could be said of almost every film not on the list, as they don't talk about the Marocchinate either. There was no reason for the film to even mention this, as the film was about Algerian soldiers (of the 3rd Algerian Infantry Division) liberating Morocco and France, not Moroccan soldiers liberating Italy. It seems to be from a single purpose account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Integrita Madridrealy (talk) 07:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Pope Pius XII

This statement alleged to Pope Pius XII is supported only a dead link:

“ The stories of mass rapes and slaughter of Italian peasants, reportedly prompted Pope Pius XII to communicate to the Allied command his intense wish that the FEC not be allowed into the city of Rome at its liberation. ”

This was sourced to http://digilander.libero.it/fiammecremisi/eramoderna/memoryanziocassino.htm (Cassino), now a dead link. Since it is not verifiable, even using the http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://digilander.libero.it/fiammecremisi/eramoderna/memoryanziocassino.htm%20Cassino (wayback machine), I have deleted it. If the account is accurate, please restore it with text cited to a reliable source for verfication. patsw (talk) 16:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

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"Claims of Exaggeration"

So, we're quoting a WWII-era French general about warcrimes possibly committed by his country during the conflict, not placed in any sort of official context, just pretty much saying "they were exaggerated"? Do we really need this as a 'balance' on this topic? I have no doubt that the Axis propaganda machine in Italy reveled at the opportunity to paint France's use of African troops with a broad brush in their exaggeratedly racist style (in fact, we know they did this elsewhere in the war), and that the more outlandish claims are likely the result of fearful rumor by an increasingly-victimized populace torn between two foreign occupiers, subject to depredation, deprivation, and an intentional propaganda effort looking to capitalize off of this sudden and intense anxiety (the Italian Front being particularly heavy in propaganda strategy by the belligerents for a few reasons), but why does one French general's claims of exaggeration warrant its own section? Would we give Erich von Manstein a section of his own with a quote of him saying "Claims of atrocities on the Eastern Front were largely exaggerated" on a page about a massacre of Soviet POWs? There seems to be a real hesitance for some contributors on this website to accept a lot of the Italian historiography of the war as even valid and while I understand the difficulty of the language barrier in general (though technology is helping to scale this barrier) and the initial skepticism of obliging a primarily Italian viewpoint out of obvious concerns of bias - we don't have much information from elsewhere on a lot of these topics.

The other participants in the Second World War weren't very interested in the Italian side of the conflict when constructing their national historiographies, and so there is a real dirge of English-language material on what was a rather large - if neglected - dimension to the conflict that if given attention could actually shed a lot of light on and give new context to our understanding of the Second World War as a whole - think of how much our perception of the war changed when the Soviet archives opened up in the 1990's and we could suddenly cross-reference the German accounts we'd previously accepted for lack of conflicting information. Well, our perceptions of the Italian side of the war were also largely shaped by what the German commanders and their records had to say about their erstwhile partners in crime - we didn't really ask the Italians all that much and due to our unwillingness to delve into the subject of the previous Fascist regime and potentially alienate a key Cold War ally we left well enough alone and instead of an Iron Curtain we erected one built of indifference. I'm not saying we check our scrutiny at the door, but there's still an astounding amount of what Paul Fussell called "war-time typecasting" that we really need to overcome. 2601:87:4400:AF2:FD12:4C2E:6FB2:23DB (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Legality and numbers

I don't understand the scope of the "Legality" section. Even accepting the reasoning, it does not make "legal" the rape. Perhaps, according to the paragraph, the "marocchinate" were not war crimes, but certainly rape is and was a crime according to both Italian and French law... So, they were not legal. I'm going to edit the title, but perhpas the section can be deleted.

Moreover, the whole "Mass rape" section is inaccurate and filled with unbelieveable numbers. The references are wrong, either not correct or saying different things. Numbers of 200000, 300000 or even 2000000 are fantastic and look put there just to discredit the whole issue.

The "official" italian numbers range from about 2500 to 7000 to 17000 to 60000. In particular, 17000 is the number of economic compensations requested and 60000 is the number suggested by Sen. Rossi in her 1952 speach. Regarding refrences: n. 6 is the reference to a newspaper (?) about a Ministry of defence estimate, a very indirect reference. Reference 7 is the Sen. Rossi speach and does not say that 80000 men were killed (Italy had 150000 civilian deaths in whole WW2, 80000 marocchinati is a joke). reference 10 is the introduciton to a law proposal and not an official investigation.

All bogus numbers were seemingly introduced by a single user on March, 14 2024. I'm going to revert the edits made by the user.

Serenior (talk) 20:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)