Talk:Marrano

Timing

The article ranges all over time, both before and after the Spanish expulsion of Jews. It needs to be better anchored in time - defining when most conversions occurred, and when the period of most pressure ended (with the expulsion and people leaving?) It also needs more context of class and economic hostility. Religious and racial persecution seldom exist in isolation from other forces.--Parkwells (talk) 14:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Time anchoring remains a very serious problem in this article, which frankly I don't think even reaches B class. I first noticed this in the section on Portugal, which starts in the 1970s to 1990s and a recent documentary, then mentions 1492 and continues on at length about anti-Semitic riots and related legal cases in 1506 and the HRE Charles V (d. 1558), only to jump backward (exactly at which point is unclear) to discuss failed attempts circa 1478 to keep the Inquisition out of Portugal (before Spain's Catholic Kings expelled Jews/forced their conversion in 1492 which started the section) and back to 1562. Then the Spanish section starts in 1391, somehow omits any reference to St. Vincent Ferrer's provocations, and bops to 1449 and 1462 before continuing to 1473 and 1492... The Exodus section fares no better, going from 1492 (two years later seems a link), to a fairly long discussion of 1556 then 1544. Then more geographic and time wanderings seem almost plopped in. Because of the length of this talk page, and the number of old entries, I'm also going to be bold and put this issue section near the top.Jweaver28 (talk) 02:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

First talk

Someone should find out if the spelling is maranos or marranos and then fix the article to use one spelling or the other.

"marranos" in Spanish

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What was first? The use of "marrano" for pig or for Christian ex-Jews? I heard that the word comes from maran atha. The same question for xueta.

There is should be a mention of those Marranos (Conversos?) that were devote Catholics. Torquemada and Teresa of Avila were (probably?) descendants of conversos.

There should be a mention to the concept of limpieza de sangre.

-- 62.99.88.10

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"They became very influential through their wealth and intelligence..." Rather POV, no? How about "wealth and intellect", which is at least less loaded. -- Jmabel 06:09, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"wealth and education". -- Error 01:39, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

marrano or converso

As both this article and the converso article point out, many regard the term marrano as derogatory. Wouldn't it be better to merge this article with converso? --Sentience 03:36, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The origin of the term appears to have been derogatory, but I don't think it is considered derogatory today. The two descendants of Marranos I've known at all well use the word quite proudly. -- Jmabel 03:52, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

It still would be clearer, I think, to have all the information consolidated in one place. If "marrano" is generally considered acceptable, then I suppose the converso article should be changed to redirect to it. I first became aware of the term converso when I was living in New Mexico. I noticed that there is no reference to the New Mexico community in this article, and I was thinking of adding to it, along the lines of the information on such sites as http://www.nanrubin.com/html/melton.html. --Sentience 02:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

User:IZAK has proposed that Converso be merged into Marrano. Converso cannot redirect to Marrano because the former means "convert", especially from Judaism or Islam to Christianity. So, it is much more inclusive. Marrano only refers to Spanish Jewish converts to Christianity, and moreover only those who secretly practised their own religion. A specific term can redirect to a general one, but not the other way around.

Therefore, we should either have separate articles, or merge Marrano into Converso. Note also that if you dislike the term marrano (and it was an insult), there is also the more neutral term judaizante.  :) — Helpful Dave 16:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I've just looked again and noticed a big mistake. According to all dictionary definitions, marranos were only those conversos who were both Jewish and secretly continued their rites. This article gives details of such people, but also talks about Jews who enthusiastically converted to their new religion and totally dropped their heritage. These people were not marranos! They were just Jewish conversos. All the info about them should be moved to Converso. Only the stuff about the ones who hid their true religion should be at Marrano. In fact, if we are going to dismember the article in this way (and it seems we must), we might as well just move all the content to Converso, and give that article sections like "Muslim converts to Christianity" and "Jewish converts to Christianity", and explanations of the different types of Jewish conversos, i.e. the enthusiastic ones, the sneaky ones (marranos), etc  :) — Helpful Dave 16:59, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Muslim converts are at Morisco. A third type of Jewish Converso is the one that has had an instruction in philosophy, Judaism and Christianity and is skeptic about it all. People like Spinoza were misadjusted when they had to leave Spain and ended about early Sephardic true-believers. --Error 00:12, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, we have quite a lot of info at Morisco. That changes things.  :) — Helpful Dave 14:18, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i agree that marrano is insulting, it's like saying "nigger". but as most jewish history today is written and analyzed by ashkenazi jews, non-sephardic jews, they don't seem to mind the term marrano. this entry should definetly be linked to "converso", and headings like "types of marranos" should be changed to "types of conversos" or more to the point. "types of judios escondidos", if what the spanish called marranos were those who continued to practice judaism. roberto ibeto99@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.91.140.130 (talk • contribs) 8 June 2006.

Stop using this racist term

Even if it were true that "marrano" is still considered acceptable, the above argument is much like saying, "Most American history is written by white people, and they don't mind when black people are called 'ni---r,' so it's okay to use the term."

In fact, the supposed distinction between "converso" and "marrano" as applying to sincere versus pretended converts is wrong on two levels.

First, it is simply incorrect to assume that sincere converts to Christianity would not have been referred to in derogatory terms. Spain and Portugal continued to persecute and discriminate against the conversos even after their conversion. 'Purity of blood' statutes excluded conversos and their descendants from positions in the church, government and universities, regardless of the sincerity of their religious beliefs. Conversos accused of insincerity were not called "piglet"; they were burned at the stake.

Second, categorizing all conversos as either sincere or pretending is a false dichotomy. While there were of course sincere and even fervent converts to Christianity as well as those who were martyred for believing in and practicing Judaism, there were also some who were ambivalent, some became disillusioned with all religion, and some for whom the boundaries were permeable. See, e.g., Jose Faur, In the Shadow of History: Jews and Conversos at the Dawn of Modernity (Albany: SUNY Press, 1992) DaveDaytona (talk) 04:11, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

DaveDaytona I understand your concern but it is fruit of some misconceptions and I don´t really understand what is your point. Deleting the article on marranos?? Just to clarify, after the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, Spain had an estimated 300,000 - 350,000 Converts from Judaism, a significant number of them holding positions of political power, many even having bought titles of hidalguia and nobility. The inquisition executed around 3500 people during the centuries of its existence, and this included charges of marranism, crypto-islam, protestantism, sodomy and a long etc... You are right about the statutes of limpieza de sangre, although one thing was theory another implementation - effectively it was a means by the Crown to extort Conversos into buying their "hidalgo" status so they could keep or obtain positions from which they were barred (political, religious, military). Finally, marrano is not really a racist term since it is an accusation of practicing a forbidden religion covertly, not an accusation of lineage. (This doesn´t cover Xuetas in the island of Majorca - which was indeed a racially abusive term). As the article mentions, the etymology of Marrano may be completely unrelated to "pigs" but to the verb marrar, to err or deviate. The Crown even went as far as making the use of certain derogatory terms ("tornadizos" if I remember correctly) against New Christians a criminal offence during this time. The history of the Spanish inquisition is a complex one, so we have to be more academic in supporting wikipedia explaining history rather than seeing things from a US-centric perspective. The history of Jews in Castille was one of persecution and forced assimilation but has nothing to do with blacks in America. http://www.sephardichorizons.org/Volume5/Issue1-2/Martz.htmlAsilah1981 (talk) 06:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Etymology

Can the attributed etimology of "marrano" as a Hispanicization of the Arabic "moharrama" (apparently meaning "a forbidden thing") be substantiated? Al-Andalus 15:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC).

According to Diccionarios.com, marrano means:

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marrano (ár. moharrama, cosa prohibida)

1. m. Cerdo. (pig)
2. Converso que judaizaba ocultamente. - (Convert who secretly practised Judaism)
3. adj.-m. fig. Hombre sucio y desaseado. (Dirty, filthy man)
4. El que se porta mal. (One who behaves badly [a swine])

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Also, my Diccionario Esencial Santillana de la Lengua Española 1991, ISBN 84-294-3415-1, partially agrees:

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marrano, na (del ár. muharram, prohibido, aplicado al cerdo (forbidden, referring to pork)) s. m. y f.

1. Cerdo. (pig, swine)
2. Judío converso que seguía practicando en secreto su religión. (Jewish convert [to Cristianity] who continued practising his religion in secret)

SIN. (synonyms)

1. Puerco, cochino, guarro. (Pig, swine, slob, filthy...)
2. Judaizante. ([secret] practitioner of Judaism)

ANT. (opposites)

1. Limpio; educado; decente. (clean, polite, decent)

FAM. (related)

Marranada, marranear, marranería.

---

I have added translations in fine print for the Spanishly-challenged.

So, it seems that marrano meant "not kosher", and was used both as a synonym of cerdo ("pig") and also mockingly to refer to "unkosher" Jews, i.e. ones who did all the traditional things Spanish Catholics do such as eating ham and going to Mass, but were sneakily still Jews. Aren't humans weird? It's funny how we label each other.  :) — Helpful Dave 16:20, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now Jayjg has come up with maharram. We might mention that JewishEncyclopedia.com says it's from maran atha ("our Lord hath come")  :) — Helpful Dave 19:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here are some possibilities: [1] [2]. I've added the one from the American Heritage Dictionary. Here's an interesting letter about it: [3] Jayjg ^(talk) 23:02, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Joan Corominas says that for the meaning New Christian it is "undoubtedly" a figured application of marrano ("pig") "applied with sarcasm to converted Jews and Moors". For the sense "pig", it is "probably" from Arabic máhram (máhran in vulgar pronunciation) "forbidden thing".

He references Marrano, Storia di un Vituperio (Geneve, 1925) by Farinelli (?)

He attributes the idea of separating both senses of the word to Mariana (Father Mariana?) that translated anathema maranatha sit as Sea anatema, marrano y descomulgado. Mariana's proposal was repeated by erudites and even DRAE, but "nobody concedes it belligerance".

Yakov Malkiel tried to bring it from Arabic barrâni ("foreign"), but Corominas counters with Farinelli's work.

Corominas then reviews several etymologies for "pig". He prefers máhram to muhárrama.

From Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico.

--Error 23:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All this needs to be worked into the article. How about getting the actual Hebrew and Arabic instead of just these transcriptions? Any Hebrew and Arabic experts here?  :) — Helpful Dave 14:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One possible etymology is the Hebrew word, hamarrah, which means "conversion." CessnaMan1989 (talk) 00:30, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Misc remarks

The Inquision could only trial christians; not jews. If a jew converted, he was a christian and hence he could get into trouble; not before. A jew in Spain after the expulsion (1492) was a civil matter; not religous.

Marrano was used by jews to insult converted jews (there is an associated meaning of traitor). After it was used by christians. Today the term is still insulting in Spanish. Agaist what it is said below, I doubt that one could be proud of being marrano; though one could be proud of having jews ancestry; i.e., one could be proud of being a converso but not a marrano.

"marrano" according to the Diccionario de la Real Academia (already below but here the link) http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&LEMA=marrano

According to Camilo Jose Cela, most of the Spanish people have jew and arab ancestry. This is not a new approach; have a look to "El Tizón de la Nobleza" (The Blot of the Nobility [of Spain], 1560). The Cardinal Mendoza (a common converso name) was unhappy because his nephew had problem with his "limpieza de sangre" and this report try to demonstrate that the whole nobility of Spain could not pass a "limpieza de sangre" without bribing keepers of the "Libros Verdes" (Green Books).

The "Gran Rabí" of Spain (I forgot his name) at the time of the expulsion (1492) converted. The godfather for the baptims were the Catholic Kings; well, he was probably family as Ferdinand was from the Enriquez family; a family of conversos. The "Gran Rabí" was connected to the House of Alba; the Inquision would never dream of bothering him. Question of money and power. A poor jew would be different matter.

Indeed, the "limpieza de sangre" started because of money and power: a way avoid competition for civil and military posts. The idea came from Vizcaya as they are in the north and less likely to have and grandfather calles Ali and a grandmodther called Rebeca.

The books of "El Capitán Alatriste" (A. Perez-Reverte) illustrate this subject. As long as I am aware, they has not been translated into English as the author is not very entusiastic for the translation. One of the book of the serie has the title "Limpieza de Sangre"

http://www.capitanalatriste.com/escritor.html?s=bibliografia/fl_limpieza_sangre

A film is being made on the El Capitán Alatriste: http://www.capitanalatriste.com/aventuras.html?s=ov_lapelicula

Concepts to be included:

• Cristiano viejo (old christian)
• Cristiano nuevo (new christian)

(the above was added anonymously 20 April 2005; I moved it to the bottom of the page -- Jmabel | Talk 04:41, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC))

• I agree with pretty much all of this (except the spelling!) with two caveats:
  • Cela, while a fine novelist, is not particularly an authority on the extent of Jewish ancestry in Spain.
  • While "marrano" may remain an insult in Spanish, it is a neutral term in English. I've occasionally heard "converso" used in English, but all of the roughly half-dozen people I've met who had this ancestry themselves either used "marrano" or "crypto-Jew" to refer to their own background. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:51, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

WARNING

WARNING: Much of the material in this article is inconsistent with the source material from which it purports to derive. In particular, claims that the Marranos were ultimately responsible for the Spanish Inquisition are not supported by the articles cited source. Neither is such a claim supported by other sources on the history of the Inquisition. Some of the material in this article thus may be rightly considered anti-Semitic. (Added anonymously at top of article 9 July 2005, moved here.)

• If you think specific statements in the article aren't borne out by the cited sources, please indicate what passages you have a problem with. That is a lot more likely to get the article fixed than a blanket statement like this. (By the way, at a quick read, I think you are basically correct.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

• FWIW, it's not from the 1911 Britannica article Marano, which is very short (although it also seems almost to blame the Marranos for the Inquisition as well). In its entirety:

MARANO (accursed or banned), a term applied to Jewish Christians in Spain. Converted to Roman Catholicism under compulsion, these " New Christians " often continued to observe Jewish rites in their homes, as the Inquisition records attest. It was in fact largely due to the Maranos that the Spanish Inquisition was founded. The Maranos made rapid strides in prosperity, and " accumulated honours, wealth and popular hatred " (Lea, History of the Spanish Inquisition, i. 125). This was one of the causes that led to the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Maranos emigrated to various countries, but many remained in the Peninsula. Subsequently distinguished individuals left home for more tolerant lands. The Jewish community in London was refounded by Maranos in the first half of the 17th century. Hamburg commerce, too, owed much to the enterprise of Portuguese Maranos. In Amsterdam many Maranos found asylum; Spinoza was descended from such a family. There are still remnants of Marano families in Portugal.

See Lea, loc. cit. and elsewhere; see index s.v. " New Christian "; Graetz, History of the Jews, Eng. trans, see index s.v. " Marranos "; M. Kayserling, in Jewish Encyclopedia, viii. 318 seq. ; and for the present day Jewish Quarterly Review, xv. 251 seq. (I. A.)

Having read through the article, it seems quite horribly POV. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the encyclopedia's "due to" means that the strains of social tensions caused by mass conversions and then suspicions about people, were factors that led the government to undertake the Inquisition. The gov't was hoping to control social passions for its own benefit.--Parkwells (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

About Spanish and Portuguese usage of marrano

BEGIN text copyed from [[Talk:New Christian#Merge from Marrano]]

I suggest Marrano to be merged into this articles since, first, they have the same subject, and second, for being a better name as New Christian [...] were also insulted as marranos and also according to my portuguese language dictionary marrano refered to either actual Jews or Moors not to converted Jews. Nabla 15:33:00, 2005-08-10 (UTC)

The other article is far more complete. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Against. DRAE says: adj. despect. Se decía del converso que judaizaba ocultamente. U. t. c. s.; no Moriscos in Spanish. Besides, New Christians are obviously Christians, so unconverted Jews or Muslims are not included. +

cristiano nuevo 1. m. y f. Persona que se convierte a la religión cristiana y se bautiza siendo adulto. For the RAE, there is no mention of Jews or Muslims. However for cristiano viejo: m. y f. Descendiente de cristianos, sin mezcla conocida de moro, judío o gentil. +

Since "Marrano" is lifted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, I gather that in spite of the insulting intention, its usage is accepted in a historic context. +

--Error 19:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, the insult argument became void. And apparentelly the word is used differently in Spain and in Portugal, at least it is refered differently in our dicionaries... Anyway this is reason enough for me to remove the merge tags.

I think this may be relevant to the marrano article so I'll copy this discussion to its talk page Nabla 00:18:43, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

END text copyed by Nabla 00:18:43, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

Anusim

Worth mentioning that 'Anusim' actually means 'raped men' in Hebrew. 'Constrained' would be 'mugbalim'. I have never heard 'anusim' used for Marranos. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.6.169.96 (talk • contribs) 3 June 2006.

I hear the term 'anusim' used all the time for 'Marranos'. I've allways been told by native Hebrew speakers that 'anusim' literally means 'forced ones'. Yes, I suppose that could have a similar connotation as 'raped', although I've never heard that. To say it's not used is positively not true. 'Marranos' is slowly being eaten away at by people who are disseminating the fact that it is still considerd deragatory by the sheer fact that it still means 'Pigs'. It never stopped meaning 'Pigs'. Many make a point out of correcting others at any mention of the term, therefore why should it be used repeatedly, over and over again in an article? -Avigayilneshama —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avigayilneshama (talk • contribs) 12:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

In Sefaradí Tradition

Most of commentary here exposed shows the contradicting way modern historians have dealt with the issue. None seem to agree either in its application or origin, but have used it freely without paying a attention to the actual documentation available. These are the facts:

1. The term "Marrano" was a word appearing first in the 15th century, and it was a word used primarily by Spanish Old Christians who discriminated against converted Jews to Christianity, or New Christians. [Check Carrete Parrondo’s Fontes (II, p. 53)]
2. To this day, the word "Marrano" is used in derogatory ways, but no longer in connection to having Jewish ancestry. In fact, their descendants still call themselves "Jews."
3. If one were to check all available Spanish Inquisition documentation, the Catholic Church did never used the word "Marrano."
4. If one were to check all available works and literature of Sefaradim from the 15th to the 18th centuries, no Jew ever used the word "Marrano" to refer to the converted Jews and their descendants. Check the available rabbinic legal opinions regarding their cases at: http://www.judaismo-iberico.org/responsa/resp.htm
5. Only after the 19th c., the term "Marrano" became commonly used by historians of Ashkenazi origin.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dramirezg (talk • contribs)

Hello Dramirezg,

I've reverted your edits as they are written in an unencyclopedic manner and lack proper sources. I hope that you can reinsert a sourced and properly written version at some point soon though. You may want to look over the Wikipedia basics on your userpage. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 22:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

With reference to what Dramirezg says:

• Points 1, and 3 are most likely simply correct (assuming "ever not" means "not ever").
• On point 2, I don't know about the first claim. On the second claim, I imagine that is true of some; many others were aware that they had unusual traditions, but didn't know that they were Jews.
• On point 4, probably so; hard to prove a negative.
• On point 5: probably correct. However, I would add that although the reclaiming of this term probably began with historians of Ashkenazi origin, it is now quite common among the people it referred to, especially among those who were unaware that their family traditions were of Jewish origin and who only discovered this after reading about the phenomenon of crypto-Jews. - Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jmabel:

• On point 2, only people who come from Hispanic countries can tell you this, and not books. Ask any Spanish speaking person what the word "marrano" means to them, and then ask them if to them it means Jew. Then, you will appreciate my point.
• On point 4, please read La Divina Providencia (17th c.) by David Nieto, and Shebet Yehudah (16th c.) by Salomon ibn Verga, both Sefaradi works that speak of Anusim, or forced Jews living as Catholics, and you will see that these authors do not refer to them as "Marranos". Both were important rabbis.
• The question one must ask on point five, why would a Jew would call another fellow Jew a "Pig". It does not make sense. Most Jews using it today do not even know what it means, but those who began using it knew what it meant. If that is the case, if people beging to consider Jews "assholes", is it OK for everyone to refer them as "assholes" both in writing and in speech?

--Dramirezg 00:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• On point four, this can certainly indicate that someone else used the term, but not that no Jew ever used it. As I said, the negative is probably correct, but almost impossible to prove.
• Again, on points 2 and 5, I have more than a few times heard people of this background use this word to refer to themselves, among them Benjamin Melendez. Melendez is a native Spanish-speaker, but he is also either a native New Yorker or close to it (I'm not sure where he was born; his parents were born in Puerto Rico, and he grew up in New York), so he would have had a lot of contact with Ashkenazaic Jews, who form over 10% of the NYC population. I've also heard the term used by a woman from New Mexico who only in the 1990s had come to realize that her family traditions were Jewish traditions. Again, she may well have learned the term from Ashkenazim. I'm not sure of her linguistic background; her Spanish was fluent, certainly better than mine (which falls slightly short of fluency) but we conversed mainly in English so I didn't have much chance to judge. Etymology is not a clear mark of whether a word is an insult. "Yid" has an impeccable etymology, but is an insult. - Jmabel | Talk 01:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jambel

• On your last point, please notice you're talking about Hispanics who have been living in the U.S.. I was talking about Hispanic people who still live in Hispanic countries. They do not know the usage of "Marrano" for Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dramirezg (talk • contribs) 05:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Unclear phrase

"The last remaining community, in Belmonte, officially returned to Judaism in the 1970s." Does this mean the last remaining Crypto-Jewish community in North Eastern Portugal? Or does it mean something broader? And, if so, did the others cease to be Crypto-Jewish by also returning to open Judaism? By giving up Judaism entirely? By dying off? - Jmabel | Talk 04:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

1- No. It means, the last group of people, that lived together, as a comunity. A small town, better way to describe. They live near each other, and marry each other. Is common sense, that neighours know it, but do not care. 2- Im portuguese, and never heard that "marrano" means "pig" or similar. It does not. The only possibility left, was an old word that nobodys uses anymore, or a "regional" word. But I never heard it before, with the meaning of "pig", or similar. 3- Neither "marrão"- "marrão" is a popular word, for students that apllys all of their free time, to study. A kind of "geek", but not the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.142.18 (talk) 17:01, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Jessianos

Is there a citation for this? I've never heard it; I can't find anything online; and the double "s" would be very unusual in Spanish, though there are other languages in the region (including French) where it exists. - Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me see if I can find one. --Epeefleche 04:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Roth

We have a passage, which I am about to wikify:

According to Historian Cecil Roth, political intrigues in Spain promoted anti-Jewish policies, which culminated in 1391, when Regent Queen Leonora of Castile gave the Archdeacon of Ecija, Ferrand Martinez, considerable power in her realm. Martinez gave speeches that led to violence against the Jews, and this influence culminated in the sack of the Jewish quarter of Seville on June 4, 1391. Throughout Spain during this year, the cities of Ecija, Carmona, Cordova, Toledo, Barcelona and many others saw their Jewish quarters destroyed and massacred. It is estimated that 200,000 Jews saved their lives by converting to Christianity in the wake of these persecutions.

Can someone indicate title and page number of where Roth says this? The article cites two books of his; that would be a lot for someone to look through to find this. - Jmabel | Talk 00:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Translations

A few details: in nowadays spanish, marrano means only pig, and by extension, filthy person, is also in use the adjective marranada filthy thing

the meaning associated with this article was in use till the XVII century an after that disappeared (In the first edition of the DRAE (spanish academia dictionary) it only read: Maldito o descomulgado (Damned or excomunicated)) In current edition it also includes a meaning first added in 1956: formerly used to refer to false converts

You can check all this here: http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUIMenuNtlle?cmd=Lema&sec=1.0.0.0.0.

So, marrano can only applied strictly to the false converts (those who practiced judaism at home). But it was a common belief in XVI and XVII centuries that all converts were pretending, and marrano was an insult commonly used against them.

The authority in this subject is this:
Albert Sicroff: Les Controverses des statuts de Pureté de sang en Espagne du XV au XVII siècle (Paris: Didier, 1960)
I've read the spanish translation, but there must be an english one:

Los estatutos de limpieza de sangre : controversias entre los siglos XV y XVII / Albert A. Sicroff ; versión castellana de Mauro Armiño revisada por el autor. -- Madrid : Taurus, D.L. 1985 377 p. ; 21 cm. -- ((La otra historia de España ; 5)) ISBN 84-306-3505-X

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Emilio Juanatey (talk • contribs) 17 December 2006.

Proposition

the classification should be types of conversos, and crypto-judaism one of the types, and in every case it has to say: referred to as marranos as marrano is an insult, not a self-definition. It`s possible that some sephardic jews have forgotten this, but it still is true.

Emilio Juanatey 16:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Article title

There has been much discussion of what the title of this should be. I'd like to see if we can get some sort of consensus. Could people indicate which of the following titles would be acceptable to them (feel free to add more to the list, and feel free to indicate that more than one would be acceptable to you).

Marrano(s)

OK

1. Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Not OK

Comments

Crypto-Jews in Spain

OK

1. Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Not OK

Comments

Converso(s)

OK

Not OK

Comments

• Some hesitancy on this one, because it also includes entirely sincere converts, and I think the topic here is those who continued some degree of Jewish practice after nominally converting. - Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Types of Marranos

It says there are four categories but only lists three...? Also, shouldn't the article only be about those who kept (at least some) of their Jewish heritage\tradition? Yonatanh 23:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Marranos vs. Cryptos

I don't understand why this article even exists. A marrano is a crypto-jew. Both are of Sephardi ancestry forced to convert to another religion (usually Catholicism), but secretly practiced Judaism.

Not all Marranos keep Judaism. There are many who are just as well Catholics, and feel no need to revert back to Judaism.

Aristides Sousa Mendes

The link to Aristides was there because of this article: "He later testified that Mendes was a devout Catholic, but he came from a Marrano background and was very proud of his Jewish heritage." [4]

As you said, he has nothing to do with marranos. But, if his ancestors did? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.152.57 (talk) 13:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Netanyahu

In the lead, "However, this view has recently come under severe criticism from historians such as B. Netanyahu...": no link to indicate who this person is, no citation to say where he said it, and, in addition the statement seems incoherent to me: of course most Jews who converted to Catholicism really converted. The term Marrano (or crypto-Jew) refers precisely to those whose conversions were insincere or incomplete, and who continued secretly to practice Judaism or to maintain Jewish traditions. Under the circumstances, I believe we should just cut this. - Jmabel | Talk 01:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Introduced in this edit by Georgio Farmani (talk · contribs). Very few edits, none of them with citation, but I'll contact him on his talk page so he has an opportunity to comment. - Jmabel | Talk 01:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed claim that Marranos were Christians

Removed the following from article:

However, this view has recently come under severe criticism from historians such as B. Netanyahu, who believe that many Marranos were actually fully-fledged Christians. Netanyahu, a Professor Emeritus at Cornell University,

uses the court records of Don Isaac Abravanel, the senior court financier during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, to demonstrate that Spanish Jewry had absolutely no connection with Marranos and in fact regarded them as fully assimilated Christians.

By definition a Marrano is a forced convert and therefore not a true Christian so this paragraph makes no sense.--Ezra Wax (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC )

I don't have Netanyahu's book with me but I know what this is about and it represents a viewpoint which is glaringly missing from the article. Most of the "court cases" which convicted people of being secret Jews involved torture of the suspect. Netanyahu and some others argue that confessions under torture can't be trusted and that it should be assumed that many or most of the victims were innocent. Other arguments are put forward as well. One historian (I don't recall if it was Netanhayu) wrote that the Inquisition was a "factory for making Marranos" rather than an inquiry for finding Marranos. I'm nowhere near ready to edit on this topic but someone should. Zero^talk 02:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

POV

While the events described were terrible, the language sounds as if it is lifted from a source that has a definite position in favor of the Jewish population. It's not appropriate for this encyclopedia. --Parkwells (talk) 13:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Refugees

This seems to suggest (without sources) that all Sephardic Jews who went to Italy, London, or Belgium were conversos or Marranos. It is very confusing - just as it does not define whether the article is supposed to be about all Marranos, in the broadest sense, or all conversos, or Sephardic Jews in general (it goes into very old history in the Spain section), it seems to assume that all who left were conversos. I don't think that is accurate at all. Sephardic Jews established a community in London to escape the persecution in Spain and Portugal. Many went from there to the American colonies, where they were among early settlers in Newport, Portsmouth, New York and Charleston, SC.--Parkwells (talk) 13:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism of much of article

The article says it is "drawn from" one on Maranos in the Jewish Encyclopedia.com. It looks as if it was copied and pasted, not drawn from, and this is plagiarism, unless the encyclopedia is open source. This is entirely inappropriate for Wikipedia.--Parkwells (talk) 19:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Percentage of Jewish and Muslim ancestry studied

Recent DNA studies (2008) of the Y chromosome among people in Spain suggests their ancestry is about 20% Jewish and 11% Moorish. Results of the studies were discussed in Dec 4 articles in the NY Times and other papers. Researchers believe that these percentages reflect the populations who stayed in Spain and Portugal and converted to Christianity in the 14th and 15th centuries. See "DNA study shows Spain's Jewish and Muslim heritage", International Herald Tribune, [5] --Parkwells (talk) 19:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Among the miriad of genetic studies done with the Spanish that paper is the *only* that arrives to that crazy conclusion. They assume that those linages are "Jewish" while ignoring the Neolitic, the Roman , the Greek, and the Phoenician contribution (All J2 carriers). Read this: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/12/major-study-of-iberian-y-chromosomes.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.57.241.182 (talk) 22:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Misleading or Mistaken Interpretation; "New genetic studies on the male Y chromosome conducted by the University of Leeds in 2008 appear to support the idea that the number of forced conversions were signifigantly underestimated. ..." Genetic studies cannot determine how many people were forced to convert

(The quote continues) "...They have determined that the current population of Spain has ancestry through the male line that is 20% Jewish. These percentages are believed to represent the proportions of the respective populations at the time of mass conversions in the 14th and 15th centuries.[1] This seems to imply there was much forced conversions than which was previously thought to be 200,000.

So, in other words; Maybe the study seems to imply that there might have been more forced conversions in the 14th and 15th centuries than previously thought. Doesn't sound quite so strong when the vague construction is clarified. gibby66us (talk) 22:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Main subject of article

This is still difficult to ascertain. It seems to be about the buildup to the Inquisition and expulsion, rather than an explanation of the term marranos or conversos. It definitely should not be titled "Marranos". --Parkwells (talk) 21:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Conversion, Inquisition and expulsion of Jews and Muslims

This seems to be the real topic of the article, as there is much history before and after the institution of the Inquisition and the expulsion of 1492. It's too much to add after an article that is ostensibly about the term marranos and where it came from. The long historical sections should be moved to more appropriate places. The article on Moriscos treats the comparable history more briefly. This one shows the problem with relying too much on the 1911 encyclopedia. Is there agreement for change? --Parkwells (talk) 15:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)--Parkwells (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Marranos or Crypto-Jews Reference by Karen Primack

How is Karen Primack's ″Jews in Places You Never Thought Of″ cited as evidence to refer to how scholars should refer to Marranos? This work is neither scholarly, written by a scholar or apparently doesn't even have references within the work to substantiate the contention. The only review on Amazon openly complains that the author doesn't use any scholarly works or references but merely proffers her opinion repeatedly... The comment "In modern use "marrano" is sometimes, but not always, considered offensive; and "crypto-Jew" is occasionally preferred in scholarly works" and citation should be removed... Stevenmitchell (talk) 12:37, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

What's with the point about the supposed Arabic etymology for 'marrano'?

I don't get the irrelevant point regarding the supposed Arabic etymology for 'marrano.' Anyone who knows Spanish knows that marrano simply means 'pig,' regardless of any failed groping towards obscure, Arabic etymologies. The word marrano has a meaning apart from that which was applied to the converts, in the context of the article. It's actually a lot clearer if you simply mention that it's a Castillian word which means pig, and then all the dominos will fall into place in the mind of the reader. Another strange Wikipedia article, in my opinion. I propose that that part be taken out. I'll wait a month for it to be deleted, and then if no one objects I'll take it out myself. Thanks. Lighthead ^þ 00:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

LightheadIsn't the fact that several authors (some are referred to in the article, others here in Talk) have tried to ascertain the etymology relevant enough to mention it in the article? --Error (talk) 22:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't change the fact that marrano simply means 'pig.' The explanation in that section is overly embellished with etymologies and shmetymologies. A pig is a pig is a pig... that's all that really needs to be said in that section. I personally don't care if the current edit is left there as it is. I have nothing invested in this article. That's just my advice from the pov of a Spanish speaker. If you'd rather the article be awkward-sounding, then just let it be. My overall point is that if you simply leave the fact that marrano means pig, then the reader will know what the Spaniards of that time were thinking about those particular Jews since all people know that to call someone a pig is an epithet. I mean, marrano also means pig in modern Spanish. I'm not even sure if Old Spanish was still a thing at that time. Lighthead ^þ 03:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

That's true today, but what is obvious today was not obvious in the 14th century. The source of morrano itself per wiktionary is Arabic, it's not a Latin root. This term has more of a historic contxt than a present day one.TotallyAbrupt (talk) 06:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)