Talk:Martial industrial

Vandalism

This page has seen a lot of vandalism lately for some reason. Please fix it if you see it. - Bloodofox, 8.10.05

Antifa

[fleischbox] Anti Fascists

[fleischbox] they are an organization that likes to disrupt musical events

Antifas are no organisation in particular, but people who criticize and sometimes act against fascism or (what they regard as) fascistoid tendencies from a left-wing point of view. Of course, there are some organisations that are anti-fascistic. And, surely, they don't just "like to disrupt" musical events, but rather organise, say, demonstrations against what they might see as a dangerous aestheticisation of fascistoid tendencies in dark music genres, by which groups of the extremistic right are trying to influence listeners of dark / "gothic" music and to recruit new followers (as on the Wave-Gotik-Treffen in Leipzig for some years now). Everything in its own place ... ;-) -- 85.182.75.53 22:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC) de:Benutzer:marilyn.hanson

Such groups are well known to use bomb threats, physical violence and other means of forceful censorship to promote their agendas. Notable cases include whenever Blood Axis attempts to play in the United States and various incidents involving Death In June (Examples: [1]) not being able to take the stage. These groups are often not interested in dialogue or facts - which they make pretty clear - and I'm not aware of a single artist in either genre that openly attempts to recruit people into any sort of ideology. :bloodofox: 01:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I was at several Wave-Gotik-Treffen, and it was not the artists themselves, but people from their labels and also members of so-called Freie Kameradschaften (meaning something like "free associations of brotherhood"), who actually tried to lure people into joining them or at east into taking some propaganda stuff with them by selling music of this genre - as some kind of "bait", if you like. And who said that aesthetic influence and preparations for recruitment offers are "attempted openly"? They don't do it in a clandestine way, that's right, but nonetheless in a quite subtle way ... -- marilyn.hanson 01:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

WHAT? these antifa groups use violence and bomb threats to ruin musical concerts and silence musicians? well i see the musicians aren't doing their jobs fine, otherwise the own fans would shot, beat, gang rape and/or burn to death whoever tried to stop a concert, specially for this pathetic reason.

You are such a tasteless troll (and I'm feeding you right now). You think "burning" or "gang raping" someone would mean "musicians are doing their jobs fine"? How pathetic! Did it ever occur to you that quite a lot of people, especially in Germany, which besides the UK is a core country of neofolk and military pop, could feel deeply offended and utterly provoked by aestheticisation of cultural items specifically used in Third Reich propaganda? I mean, the system in question led to approx. 50-60 million people being killed! Are for people like you Goebbel's propagandistic mass events just some kind of nice get-togethers with a great light show?

I am not saying anyone should "silence musicians" or "ruin musical concerts", but if you had even the slightest idea of 20th century history, you had to consider it and see such antifa activities in a different light, accordingly!

In these post-modern times many think that nothing is of importance any longer, that anything goes - and that no harm can come of music or (sub)culture. But there still remain some who continue to watch carefully what's going on: It is obvious that the left lost its cultural hegemony (see also Antonio Gramsci) in the 1980s, and that there were others (see Alain de Benoist), preferably some creative unorthodox people from the extreme right, who jumped in to fill the gap, among other things by astheticising imagery, clothing, sound and general style of the Nazis.

Don't get me wrong, it is fine with me to use symbols and cultural signs controversially and to provoke, but an artist should give some hints as to what is intended, as to were he/she is heading, as to in what kind of context the provoking element could be seen. There has to be some critical undertone, some distancing, within the work itself or at least by statement of the artist, or he/she runs the risk of just being affirmative (that is positive towards the displayed) - and this is what so many critics find to be the case in these bands. Unfortunately, most of the martial industrial/neofolk bands I saw something of were just like the latter (basically, all of them! Only similarly incriminated German electro act Feindflug have made some efforts to clarify their relationship towards National Socialism by dissociating from it, and they are not even from the exact genre).

The situation reminds me somewhat of people with Tourette's Syndrome (who are of course suffering from a severe disease, unable to control their doing most of the time): They repeatedly display or say something offending without further explanation, even refusing to discuss their behavior, provoking others, maybe stating they "don't mean it that way" at most, but they never take position in the matter itself. I only see two circumstances, under which this could be rational behavior:

1. Since the underlying tactics is to express oneself or even influence others on a non-rational, but cultural (aesthetic) basis, there is no point in a open and reasonable confrontation with the offended. After all, it is no classic political or political cultural action (as the Catharsis momentum in theatric plays), but just a cultural one to broaden or establish not opinions in certain, well-defined political fields, but rather to induce feelings of nostalgia or belonging to an imagined better-off "good old time" in a totalitarian, fascistoid system where everyone was in their place and the "elite" was made of individuals "who really were exceptional" (to which of course the avant-garde artist and his/her exclusive followers belong), or feelings of being misunderstood and misplaced in today's world.
2. Or, simpler, the artist is immature, psychically somewhat deformed or deeply, quasi-fetishistically attracted to a certain kind of totalitaristic aesthetics (after all, various uniform fetishists exist).

That's my opinion of the phenomenon. -- marilyn.hanson 01:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Not only the Nazis wore military uniforms. It is rather ignorant to say anyone in a uniform is dressing like a "fascist", or "Fascistoid", as you put it. Anyone with the slightest idea of 20th century history can see that many of the "martial" artists uniforms more often resemble Russian Communist or Israeli garb from the early 20th century, some resemble pre-Hitler Weimar Era and/or Kaiser-era German military uniforms, many are simply "militaristic" outfits which are not uniforms at all, and only a very few wear anything actually similar to the design of Nazi uniforms, and even in those more rare cases Swastikas are always replaced with other symbols, usually the symbols of the band themselves. In this sense, its more akin to the Beatles all wearing matching outfits, or even more closely to Joy Division wearing matching uniforms. To attack & defame artists who have hurt no one, but perhaps a few snooty quasi-intellectuals' sensibilities, is more fascist than anything any of these artists or bands are doing. To judge someone, esp. a group of people whose culture you will not take your time to familiarize yourself with, based simply on the way they look is not far off from racism, you know. By your rationale, the KKK are the same politically as the Knights Templar simply because there can be some resemblance seen in the garb. So Nazi Skinheads and Trojan Skinheads must think the same as well, because they both wear Doc Martens boots? Not only that, but, you also seem to confuse fascism with Nazism or racism, which are all different concepts, thus the need for separate articles on them. Not everything militaristic has to do with racism.Not to mention the fact that some of the most active people in the "martial" scene are ethnically Jews, or homosexuals, which wouldn't fall too well in line with Nazi policies, esp. with the addition of asocial behavior as playing such [[entrarte muzik].] [[]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.236.53 (talk) 14:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

the origins part is soooo not npov atm, and the description of the music needs to be put at the put and given it's own heading. --MilkMiruku 08:54, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I think we've taken care of this, thank you for your edits and please continue. --Bloodofox 04:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

In The Nursery

Soundsamples

• Elegy
• Breach Birth

• Look There: Temper 1985
• Look There: Trinity 1987

It's not really a new style... --Menorrhea 03:18, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

It's the same style, just an example of it. Most bands related to New European Recordings at the time had a 'martial' sound. :bloodofox: 07:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Laibach

Added a cut-off point for Laibach's 'martial period', I reckon Opus Dei is when they started to expand out of their original harsh martial style. Any opposition?

Thanks! I felt the same way, although I decided to leave it with someone who was a little more familiar with that transitional period of their discography. :bloodofox: 06:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree. Their last album WAT wasn't military in the vein of marching drums and WW2-samples, however its electronica was very "march"-like. Especially considering them still wearing uniforms in videos & on stage I would say they can still be regarded as "military", even though exceeding the genre by far. -Oskorei

There is more to Martial than uniforms. WAT does contain some martial elements, Tanz Mit Laibach being a good example, but if we're gonna count any deep electronic beat with a martial rhythm as martial music a whole pile of drum and bass and other techno will be lumped in too.

Political views

It was nice to indicate de political views (confirmed) of the bands inte the See Also - Artists. tnks --201.14.158.6 17:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

artist external links

I don't think the list of artist external links makes much sense on this page. We should have a list of wikilinks to artists' Wikipedia articles, and then external links to their webpages should go there. Would anyone object to me removing this list, and moving the artists' names into the list of artist wikilinks? --Delirium 01:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this would be a good move - no objections. :bloodofox: 21:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Death In June

I think Death in June should be removed from the artist list. They aren't really martial and tilt to the far end of neo-folk. Also, they've never claimed to be martial, much less industrial of any sort. Ideas? Feelings?

From the very beginning of the Death In June discography into the modern era of Death In June the group/Douglas P have used very heavy martial percussion and militant imagery live and on record. Not only that, Death In June have been a massive influence on the genre not only musically but also from the early acts of NER Douglas P signed to the artists Pearce has collaborated with to the majority of the artists Death In June have shared the stage with. What else can you call albums such as "Take Care And Control," "Operation Hummingbird" and "the Wall of Sacrifice"? Practically every Death In June album has at least a few tracks that would fit perfectly into this genre. :bloodofox: 00:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Aren't the albums you mentioned those that are collaborations with Der Blutharsch, which is a martial band? I'd say the 'original' sound of death in june is more post-punk and folk/neo-folk (obviously) / 80.216.158.220 16:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, Death In June have always had a large amount of martial instrumentation, even from the early days. Early Death In June could have been described as a martial Joy Division - uniforms, heavy military drumming, live trumpets. Of the albums I've mentioned, two of them are Der Blutharsch collaborations and the other is an album by Death In June that was highly influential to Albin Julius. While Death In June is probably best known for spawning neofolk, the other side of the coin is the heavy martial aspect. :bloodofox: 23:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Test Department

Wouldn't the "orchestral" period of Test Department fit in as well? Between about 1985 and 1991 they made several albums with sampled (and some real) marching drums, orchestral elements and such. Though they aren't WW2 themed (neither are Puissance) I'd call it martial music (or martial industrial, which some seems to prefer). This could also add a bit to the political views part as Test Department where very political AND left-wing and instead of using Third Reich imagery they used soviet constructivism (is that a word?) artwork and such.

Yes, Test Dept should very well be on this list. :bloodofox: 23:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

How about NON?

I wouldn't call all the works of NON martial, but I do think the song "Total War" has been very influental to the genre (similarities can be heard in Coph Nia's "Holy War" and several earlier Der Blutharsch and Puissance tracks). Along with Laibach and Turbund Sturmwerk I think I would say that it defined how the genre would sound throughout almost the whole 90's and into the early 2000: Heavy military percussion, shouted lyrics and without any real melodies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.158.20 (talk) 21:14, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

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Neoclassicism vs Neoclassical Darkwave

I think Neoclassical Darkwave is what the article is really refering to. Unless someone can clarify that it is supposed to be Neoclassicism and not Neoclassical Darkwave I will edit it as such.JanderVK (talk) 09:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

On that note, can anyone actually provide any stylistic or aesthetic link between these musics and actual classical music, so as to validate the "neoclassical" (meaning new classical) label? It's fine to identify a common beliefs amongst the fans (which may or may not be justified), but academically any links to classical music are simply misleading. 01:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.40.41 (talk)

External links

The entire external links section is inappropriate. Not only are the links basically just advertisements, but they are almost all for languages other than English. If no one raises an objection within the next week, I'm removing probably the whole section. Torchiest (talk | contribs) 22:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

20 Landmark Albums

While I absolutely see the value in this, and indeed would include many of the same in a similar list of my own, I'm pointing out that, at least with no sources cited, it stands as entirely subjective and, further, that it be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HaggardBastard (talk • contribs) 04:15, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

This Article needs to be Deleted

People seem to just be making up their own terms and starting articles. This made up article needs to be deleted as soon as possible. I think that most most of these people would be extremely annoyed that all a 16 year old got from their music was that it had military themes. Also many of these bands it was a small aspect of their sound as their music evolved. For example Test Dept in the mid 90`s was doing almost full on dance type music.Starbwoy (talk) 03:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

An aspect is an aspect. Martial music is a real thing. And emulating it under an industrial pop banner is a real thing too. It's not a taxonomy of artists, it's a taxonomy of musical pieces. --184.20.10.253 (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Simplification of language

This article is written in an overly academic style. It reads like an essay, with a lot of filler phrases ("in short") and verbose language. There is also terminology within it that seems to be made up: the use of the term '(sacral)' for example. Jestaniforth (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)