Talk:Martin Höhener

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Martin Höhener. Favonian (talk) 00:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

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Martin Hohener → Martin Höhener – First at all, I ask you to excuse my English, because I'm a French native speaker, and I don't speak English very good. So: Martin Höhener comes from the German part of Switzerland and his name has diacritics, like some German native speaker. Examples? Gerhard Schröder, Hermann Göring, Ernst Röhm. There is no reason not to rename this page. Kind regards. Chollux (talk) 22:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support per WP:USEENGLISH. All English encyclopedias (and similar reference works) use all applicable diacritics for all European languages. The only exception I know is that many replace German ß by ss. In the case of German names this is particularly important because "Hohener" could conceivably be the correct name and, as a spelling of "Höhener", is a totally non-standard, simplistic "just drop all the funny foreign nonsense" pseudo-transliteration that is an error in practically every context. A more acceptable spelling would be "Hoehener", but that also has the problem that it could also conceivably be the correct name.
  One could contemplate the possible existence of a genuine English spelling of the name if Höhener had moved to the US and got his main claim to notability there. But there is no indication of that as his stay in the US appears to have been temporary. Hans Adler 22:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

According to his career stats at Eliteprospects.com, he has played his whole life in Switzerland. Chollux (talk) 07:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Then what does "He was selected by the Nashville Predators in the 9th (284th overall) of the 2000 NHL Entry Draft" mean? Is it just American navel-gazing? Was he selected and declined? In that case the sentence is a BLP violation (misleading information about a living person), added in the attempt to support a borderline BLP violation (intentionally creating article about a living person under a spelling of the name which in the context of an encyclopedia is a misspelling). I am seeing this "drafted" stuff in a lot of articles, never with any explanation as to what it means and implies. So far I always assumed that the "drafted" players played for the team in question for an unspecified time, presumably at least one season. If that is not the case, a lot will have to change. Hans Adler 10:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

He was drafted, yes, but he never played in NHL, and any team of the North American continent offered him a contract. The draft "is an annual meeting in which every franchise of the National Hockey League (NHL) systematically select the rights to available amateur ice hockey players who meet draft eligibility requirements". He was selected, but the Nashville Predators never used their right over Martin Höhener. The draft is a important moment for ice hockey players, but many of them never played in the NHL, especially players who are selected in the last rounds. THIS IS NOT A BLP VIOLATION. Chollux (talk) 11:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Even if it is not a BLP violation, it needs some kind of explanation. I have never in my life heard of this stuff, and you can't write BLP articles under the assumption that the readers are experts in the bizarre practices of some special field. If a statement is misleading to the general public, then it needs explanation. Hans Adler 11:11, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no misleading information in this article, that I haven't written. If general public doesn't understand something, he can search missing informations. Wikipedia, or any others encyclopedia, is made for that, isn't it? Chollux (talk) 12:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

How would you look up "what does it mean to be 'drafted' by the Nashville Predators" in an encyclopedia? I have no idea how to do this. I was not attacking you. I pointed out that such sentences must be put into their proper context so that readers can understand what they mean. A naive reader will think that the sentence means what it says: The Nashville Predators drafted him, i.e. made them one of them. If you say that someone was drafted by the US Army, then everybody will understand that he became a member of the US Army. If that's different for the Nashville Predators, then this is something that must be said in every article where the problem occurs. A naive reader will not know that the sentence does not mean what it says, so the naive reader will simply leave the article with the information that Höhener played with the Nashville Predators for an unspecified amount of time. Hans Adler 12:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

And without further explanations (which I don't know where to find) it appears to me that the information is not noteworthy at all. Hans Adler 12:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This is why there is an NHL Entry Draft article. If every article of a player that has been drafted by an NHL team had to explain what exactly the draft means, that wouldn't make sense. There's a reason why the draft section of the infobox links back to NHL Entry Draft page on Wikipedia, which explains what the draft is. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 23:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I don't think the Goering article has the proper spelling, since in English, I encounter "Goering" more often. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 08:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Göring is the most pedantically correct spelling, which is what ecyclopedias use. [See the Britannica article]. Goering is the only correct transcription. It is correct (though not as correct as Göring) in all contexts in which no other German word or name (such as Schröder or führer) is spelled with umlauts, either. On Wikipedia, roughly 4% of all article titles are foreign names with diacritics, spelled correctly according to the original language, and the percentage of foreign names in which diacritics were dropped is so small that I have been unable to determine it. In all areas other than tennis and hockey, and for all languages other than Vietnamese, articles that were created without the diacritics are quickly and uncontroversially moved to the more correct spelling. Some names such as Goethe can only be correctly spelled in this transliteration (even in German). Therefore automatically transliterating everything loses information and could lead to articles unnecessarily needing disambiguation, especiall in the case of common names such as Müller/Mueller. Hans Adler 10:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Comment in any case Martin Hoehener should redirect here. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 08:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support as this is his correct name and he never played in North America so there isn't likely to be a common "English name". And just for Hans information, drafted just means that a team has claimed his rights. So should he choose to play in North America he has to play for them. Its a common term in all the major sports in North America. This is probably a difference between Europe and NA which is understandable. Can easily link it to the sports draft article. -DJSasso (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

  Oh looks like it was already linked to. -DJSasso (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom. "Martin Hohener" is not likely to be an established English translation. mgeo talk 19:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support: Per WP:COMMONNAME, the current spelling of the name in the article renders the name incorrect. Removing diacritics from a name does not translate the name to English, therefore making it wrong. If anything, a more appropriate spelling without diacritics would be Hoehener, as 'oe' is the common translation to English of 'ö'. However, this athlete has never played in North America and likely does not have a common English spelling. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 23:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support. There is no common English name for Martin Höhener. - Darwinek (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose: Per WP:COMMONNAME. His official NHL profile shows name as "Martin Hohener".[1] If this article needs to be moved its title should be transliterated to Martin Hoehener per the guideline of WP:ENGLISH. Dolovis (talk) 06:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
  • How can you be sure that the NHL website is a reliable source? Don't they systematically strip diacritics? I see, for instance, that they spell Geneve-Servette HC without the accent, [2] although the English name for "Genève" is "Geneva", and not "Geneve". mgeo talk 11:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
    • That doesn't even bring into account that he hasn't played in the NHL, so whatever the NHL decides to call him is rather irrelevant. -DJSasso (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.