Talk:Martingale (clothing)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Schwede66 (talk) 04:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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WWII-era martingale on US Women's Army Corps winter overcoat

• ... that the martingale belt (example pictured) was named after the martingale strap? Source: Yarwood, Doreen (1983). "Martingale". The Encyclopedia of World Costume. Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 281–282. ISBN 0-684-15805-1. OCLC 1076697295.
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: ALT1: ... that martingale may refer to a modification to a dress, a coat, or sixteenth-century breeches?

(can also be sourced to Yarwood 1983, among others who discuss the term) Created by Викидим (talk). Nominated by Wracking (talk) at 21:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Martingale (clothing); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I will review this. TompaDompa (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

General eligibility:

• New enough:
• Long enough: - See below.

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - See below.
• Neutral: - See below.
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems: - See below.

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - See below.
• Interesting: - See below.

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Article created on 13 May. While the prose length (barely) exceeds 1,500 characters, this is still to my eye a stub/too short. All sources are, as far as I can tell, reliable for the material they are cited for. Earwig reveals no copyvio and I didn't spot any instances of unacceptably WP:Close paraphrasing. I don't think either hook is particularly interesting. ALT0 is according to the article only one proposed etymology. ALT1 is phrased ambiguously (is it "a modification to a dress, a modification to a coat, or a modification to sixteenth-century breeches" or "a coat, a modification to a dress, or sixteenth-century breeches"?) and is not really properly sourced in the article either. The image meets the requirements. With fewer than five DYK nominations (this, Milena Warthon, and Ebba Berglund), the nominator is QPQ exempt. Some comments about the content:

• I think it's dubious if this abides by WP:NOTDICT ("On Wikipedia, things are grouped into articles based on what they are, not what they are called by."). It's not clear to me that martingale belts and martingale breeches are part of a single topic rather than having an etymology in common.
• In a military overcoat, a martingale is a common and practical feature – much stronger statement than the source supports.
• The "Etymology" section is rather confusing. I think it discusses the etymology of both "martingale" in general and "martingale" in the particular sense of "half-belt". This needs to be made clearer.
• The name comes from a martingale strap used in the horse tack to restrict the movements of the horse's head; another theory suggests [...] – if there are competing theories, presenting the first one authoritatively in WP:WikiVoice before introducing the second one as an alternative theory is not appropriate. This basically amounts to saying that the first is a fact and the second is an opinion. If the first really is so dominant and widely accepted a theory as to warrant being stated in WP:WikiVoice, the phrasing for the second one lends it WP:UNDUE weight. If not, the phrasing for the first one is a WP:NPOV violation. Either way, the description of at least one of these theories violates WP:NPOV, possibly both.
• another theory suggests that the martingale coat originated in the 15th–16th centuries – phrased like this, it refers to the piece of clothing rather than its name, which would make it out of place in the "Etymology" section. The source says that this applies both to the piece of clothing and its name.
• originated in the 15th–16th centuries – "15th–16th"? Mansuy says 16th, as does Yarwood, whereas Lewandowski says "Renaissance (1450–1550 C.E.) to Elizabethan (1550–1625 C.E.)".
• This is not a DYK requirement, but an image of martingale breeches would be helpful.
• It is also possible that the association between the pants and inhabitants of Martigues is due to the latter having a reputation for naiveté and extravagance. – not what the sources say. The reputation is discussed in the context of the etymology of Martingale (betting system).
• The "History" section is also a bit confusing in scope—is it about the history of martingale breeches or martingale belts?
• The first use of the martingale in a woman's dress dates to 1951 – the source does not specify women's dresses.
• since then martingales have been used by couturiers everywhere – the source does not specify couturiers.
• since then martingales have been used by couturiers everywhere – "everywhere" is ambiguous. All over the world or all over the designs?

Ping Wracking. TompaDompa (talk) 23:37, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

• TompaDompa, thanks for the comprehensive review. I'll take a look at improving the article and see where that gets us. I appreciate your hard work! Wracking ^talk! 00:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
• Withdrawing nomination, as I won't be able to address the issues in a timely fashion. Thanks again, TompaDompa, for your review. Wracking ^talk! 18:12, 3 June 2023 (UTC)