Talk:Maryvonne Le Dizès

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• ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain, commissioned a trio for saxophone, trombone, and violin from Gilbert Amy for the ensemble? Source: [1]
  • Reviewed: Cécile Fatiman

Created by Rigg (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2115 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC).

• This will need a new hook per WP:DYKINT, as the hook as currently written is not likely to be perceived as interesting or unusual by people without specialist knowledge. It is reliant on names and knowledge unknown to most readers, and her writing the trio is part of her job and may not meet scrutiny from other reviewers. My suggestion would be to propose a hook about her being the first woman to win the Paganini Competition (which is an exceptional claim, but shouldn't be hard to prove), while adding context about the competition for the benefit of general readers. A hook about her quote "Teaching is as vital to me as playing my instrument. I cannot teach if I do not play, and I cannot play without teaching." might also work. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Kindly read the article (or just the hook). She didn't compose as far as we know. The competition is just one of those "first" hooks we were told to avoid. The special thing about her - compared to other violinists - is that she played in this influential ensemble of contemporary music, and people who don't know it get a chance to change that. Being of influence in the composition of new works is a more unusual contribution to world culture than winning a competition, and the combination of instruments is unusual as well. She devoted her life to contemporary music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24 and Launchballer: Do you see anything in the article that could work as a hook? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24, Launchballer, ScottishFinnishRadish, and Valereee: Please look and also read above. As you may have read on my talk, she - whom I also didn't know - became dear to me. Did you know should be about something people don't know, imho. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I was going to suggest something like "that when Maryvonne Le Dizes became the first woman and first foreigner to enter the Carnegie Hall competition, she was performing less to focus on her children" on the grounds that they'll keep a record of all its competitors, so there's little danger of us being proved wrong. I'm not seeing how the source backs up that her appearance took place in that time period though. I could also recommend "that the violinist Maryvonne Le Dizes "cannot play without teaching"" but that seems less than reverent.--Launchballer 09:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ideas! In order to run a beauty contest, better format them in a way that a promoter could take them without changes. I hope that we can get "contemporary music" in because that's truly what distinguishes her from most violinists with a DYK that I met. Fewer performances because of children is no surprise. Finding teaching essential as nothing that could be said only about her. For examples:

ALT3: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, became a long-term violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain?

'ALT4': ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, became a long-term violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain run by Pierre Boulez?

Pierre Boulez, featured article, centenary next year, is a name that Main page readers should know. However: He will be TFA on his centenary next year, - why promote him? Same for the other with whom she collaborated there, György Ligeti, centenary last year and celebrated. (Remember Le Grand Macabre)? So why promote him? The composer I found has a decent article and should be known more. Commissioning new music is unusual, and should be known more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Probably not a popular opinion, but I feel modifying ALT 3 and 4 thusly would be the best solution here:

ALT1: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès was the first woman to win the Paganini Competition?

"Long-term violinist" doesn't sound idiomatic. (It reminded me in passing of "Part-Time Lover"!) To you and me, working with the EC and Boulez is a big deal, but to the average person who would potentially read those hooks, it means nothing. Another ALT just came to me after re-reading the article...

ALT2: ... that for the violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès, "teaching was as vital as playing [her] instrument"?Source: Ibid.

I get where Gerda is coming from, but I feel the most successful hooks rely on exactly the sort of facts that she wants to avoid here. Whereas her preference to mention Le Dizès' work in modern music seems to me a tough sell for the casual reader unaware of classical music. Of course, what do I know? Please feel free to disagree! ;) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 00:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ALTs and especially for thinking.

"tough sell" - I am not here to sell but to inform, and that goes for the Main page as for articles. I am here to inform about the less known topics, about minorities, and want a place for those, and that goes for the Main page as well. I am here for team spirit, and like her being part of an ensemble most of all, not a virtuoso soloist. I want to give some idea of this to the reader of the one sentence who will not click. Please find a way. - I renamed your ALTs because they were the ideas from above, - why I began with ALT3.

ALT3a: ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès, the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, became violinist of the ensemble intercontemporain? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I could also call it ALT1a, trying not to leave the impression of her with good old virtuoso Paganini and competition winning alone. Repeating: she dedicated her life to contemporary music, and the name of the ensemble shows that elegantly. ALT1 requires knowledge of Paganini having been a violinist to deduce that she was a violinist, - isn't that asking too much from our general audience? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

full review needed :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• I like ALT3a very much. I also like ALT1. John (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The article was nominated five days after creation and is long enough and adequately sourced. The sourcing is largely independent and reliable, and is adequate. Right now Earwig gives me the "Too Many Requests" error so I will return to this and check for close paraphrasing once that is done. A QPQ has been provided. ALT2 is probably the cutest hook here and thus the best option, because it's somewhat surprising and isn't reliant on deep knowledge of classical music. ALT1 is the second-best option here: I know "first" hooks are not well-received on DYK these days, but this is an example that's easy to verify and thus does not require extraordinary evidence: if a full list of competition winners can be provided and added to the article, that should suffice for sourcing. I would also suggest modifying ALT1 to give brief context on the competition for the benefit of general readers. As much as Gerda is partial to ALT3 and variants, CurryTime has a point that it may be too focused on appealing to classical music fans instead of general readers. This will be given final approval once Earwig is working again. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that I clearly said that I won't accept any hook that doesn't show that she was dedicated to contemporary music and ensemble playing. Give minorities a place on the Main page, please ;) - ALT3a has the"first woman" aspect, so offers general appeal. The words "ensemble" and "intercontemporain" are clear to any reader, not "reliant on deep knowledge of classical music". Please think about it. ALT2 is cute, correct, but nothing about her specific accomplishments. It could be said by almost any music teacher giving lessons. CurryTime7-24 has not yet commented on ALT3a. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Gerda, this is a recurring issue with your nominations: you assume too much about general readership's knowledge of classical music. A general reader would almost certainly not know what a "intercontemporain" is (especially when it's a French term). CurryTime has a point and has already said his piece: the best option here is the angle that appeals to general readers, even if they are not necessarily what you want. WP:DYKINT is clear on this: the hook has to be likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing to people lacking specialist knowledge. ALT2 is an easy to understand and catchy hook that does not require specialist knowledge. ALT3 and its variants require knowledge of the Paganini Competition and the Ensemble intercontemporain, which only a minuscule fraction of our readership have. You are essentially pleading for an IAR exemption to DYKINT given that you would rather push for a hook that primarily appeals to you rather than to general readership. Gerda, I understand that you are an expert on classical music, but again, I have to repeat that very few others who are going to read the article are, and even your fellow classical music expert CurryTime prefers a more generalist hook. I have already given my thoughts, and based on WP:DYKINT and other factors, I will only be approving ALT2.

In any case, I was able to make Earwig work and there is an issue: excluding the quote, I am seeing some similarities with the wording at this link. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

It is a recurring issue with your reviews. You seem to not have read my post above. Trying to be patient: The first part of ALT3 has already the general appeal you want. The second part doesn't require any knowledge. "Ensemble" is even an English word. "intercontemporain" is close enough to "contemporary". People not interested in that part can simply be attracted by the first part, but we can come closer to her key interests in a few words. Please consider. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

It is something I have repeatedly brought up because it is something that keeps occurring. It has been an issue for several years, one raised by multiple editors, and one that contributes to classical music hooks generally underperforming in terms of readership. It also contributed to the current wording of WP:DYKINT following an RfC that originated from a similar case. I have already considered ALT3 and its variants, and ultimately, ALT2 is a better option. Even if we go with ALT1, with just the Paganini Competition angle, additional context would have to be added for readers to understand why the competition is a big deal. We cannot just simply rely on them clicking on the link: they need to get the context right from the start. I am open to approving a version of ALT1 with additional context, but ALT3 and variants are simply non-starters. You are assuming too much of a general reader.

The general reader will not easily make the "intercontemporain" = contemporary connection, and the hook does not even make it clear that 1. The Ensemble intercontemporain is the name of a specific group, and 2. that it is a big deal. ALT3 relies too much on specialist information, ALT2 is easy to understand. It may not necessarily be "specific" to her, but it's far more likely to achieve your goal of having readers learn more about Le Dizès. A hook like ALT2 is more likely to have more people read her article and learn about her achievements like joining the ensemble contemporain, than a hook that will just confuse readership and drive readers away (a recurring issue with classical music hooks that are reliant on specialist knowledge).

In any case, the close paraphrasing issue will still need to be addressed regardless of hook, so if that cannot be addressed, this whole discussion is moot anyway. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the Paganini Competition "context would have to be added for readers to understand why the competition is a big deal". For the Olympics, you would not say so, right? Any competition with an article is notable. Any ensemble with an article is notable. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I've done some rewriting. I don't know if there is another way to write "a string trio by Jean-Baptiste Devillers, a trio for saxophone, trombone and violin by Gilbert Amy". CMD (talk) 07:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

You mean that Earwig is not working for you, or what? - CMD: no, "some person's work" does not have to be changed. It's not phrasing by an author that would need protection. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you. Now that the paraphrasing issues are approved, ALT2 only is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  We can do two things now. I believe that she is too special to have a hook that could have been said by any school music teacher at any time in any culture, while the Paganini competition would at least credit her as "high achiever" in an "international competition" and present some time frame. To me ALT2 is almost meaningless without context, and highly unspecific. I can withdraw, or find a different reviewer, CurryTime perhaps. I try the latter. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

As a compromise, would you be okay with the following hook then?

ALT4 ... that for Maryvonne Le Dizès, who became the first woman to win the Paganini Competition in 1962, "teaching was as vital as playing [her] instrument"?

As I mentioned above, the Ensemble intercontemporain angle is a non-starter. Also pinging CurryTime7-24 for his thoughts, as requested. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

ALT4 doesn't work as explained above. We can't expect that people will gather from the competition's name or article that she was a violinist, and "[her] instrument" - besides being clumsy - makes no sense if we don't know which instrument that was. I also seem not to have been clear about that some form of "contemporary music" is a must for me in her case, because it sets her apart from all other violinist I have met on Wikipedia. I think that CurryTime may understand that--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I did not find it clear from the current article that contemporary music was a particular passion. I have added a bit from one source, but also see various bits in this source (French) which help express that too. Perhaps adding that to the article would help. Reading that source, I do think there is merit to mentioning the Paganini competition in the hook, as she states a meeting because of it was one of her best memories (mes plus beaux souvenirs), and this source feels it important enough for the sub-headline. For any hook, we could append "violinist" or "contemporary violinist" before her name at the least. CMD (talk) 12:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

ALT4a ... that for contemporary violinist Maryvonne Le Dizès, who became the first woman to win the Paganini Competition in 1962, "teaching was as vital as playing [her] instrument"?

@Chipmunkdavis: Like that? What are your thoughts on the Ensemble intercontemporain angle? It's 172 characters though which is already making the hook rather long, maybe longer than necessary. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

There's also another possible angle, which would be only to focus on the Paganini Competition angle, but with additional context. The context, however, would need to be added to the article as well:

ALT5 ... that Maryvonne Le Dizès was the first woman to win the Paganini Competition, one of the world's most prestigious violin competitions?

The year is probably unnecessary since it would add too much complexity to the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:55, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Some sources do seem to highlight her contemporary music. "I am passionate about working with composers," Le Dizès said in a 1998 interview of why she chose to make contemporary music her life. "Being able to discuss a score with its author, seeing together what is possible or not, trying to realize it with them." from [2] for example. I don't know if mentioning the ensemble specifically is necessary, but hopefully mentioning she is a contemporary violinist will suffice for that angle. CMD (talk) 14:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I like ALTs 4a and 5. And thank you to Narutolovehinata5 for making an effort to celebrate musicianship in hooks. This makes a nice change from on the one hand seeing music hooks in which too many facts are squeezed (instead of being simple lead-ins to the article which has all the facts) and on the other hand hooks which treat musicianship as if it were something to hide like a skeleton in a cupboard. So if 4a and 5 are where this discussion is set to end, then congratulations to both of you. Storye book (talk) 14:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the efforts! Sorry, I'm not there yet. ALT4: "contemporary violinist" means no more than that she is playing in our time, not what she is playing. Also the timing is sort of wrong, - first she won that competition, and decades later she was a teacher, while this "who became" sounds to me as if it came later. ALT5: no, we don't have to tell readers this "most prestigious" stuff. They know or can find out. We could also say that she played in the "ensemble intercontemporain, one of the most prestigious ensembles for contemporary music", but it's a waste of characters. We wouldn't speak of the "Olympic Games, one of the most prestigious sports tournaments". Let's trust that our readers know to use a link. I still believe that ALT3a is our best choice so far, because it combines a pinnacle early moment - thank you, CMD! - with what she played and recorded for decades, collaborating with some the greatest composers in the field. . Improving the article is most welcome. I worked on Friedrich Schorlemmer for hours, and now comes a Bach cantata for its 300th birthday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with ALT3a - I ignored it only because when I commented, it had already been struck out. I think, to be fair to both sides of the above polarised arguments, we should unstrike ALT3a to give a fair choice for the promoter. Storye book (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The issue here is that ALT3a simply fails WP:DYKINT: it is unlikely to be perceived as interesting or unusual to readers without specialist knowledge. ALT3a is reliant on knowing the ensemble, which I imagine even most classical music fans do not know. CurryTime already said it would be preferrable to not use that angle, while CMD said something similar. Three people (myself and two other editors) have either objected to that angle or would prefer something else, so that is already a non-starter. I understand that the ensemble is close to Gerda's heart, but as I've mentioned in many nominations prior: the interests of readership are more important than that of the nominator. ALT4a fits DYKINT better since the primary point (the quote) is not reliant on knowledge that most readers do not have. It is also somewhat of a compromise: it mentions the competition, but does not make it the highlight and thus is not as reliant on specialist knowledge as ALT3a or any variants thereof. One could argue that explaining the ensemble would improve ALT3a, but the thing is, even if that's done, there's already a more suitable option in ALT4a. I imagine more people will click on the article if ALT4a is used than if it's ALT3a.

To back up my point about how DYKINT and appealing to general readers helps, when Maxim Berezovsky ran on DYK this month, it got 8,848 views. This is above average for a Gerda nomination, and that's taking into account that it wasn't even in the image slot. By contrast, in the past, when Gerda's hooks that followed her preferred style or facts ran, they were usually among the worst-viewed hooks of the month, getting around 2,000 to 3,000 views per run. The hook used a fact that was more likely to appeal to general audiences, rather than specifically to classical music buffs. By using a generalist hook, more people ended up reading more about Berezovsky than would have happened otherwise. If Gerda wants to highlight her prowess in the violin and her achievements, it may seem paradoxical, but a generalist hook intended to make people interested in reading her article (and thus meeting DYKINT), as opposed to just simply showing off her highlights without additional context, is more likely to do that than a specialist hook.

In any case, if we are to go with ALT5, the fact about the competition being among the most prestigious needs to be in Le Dizès's article, as right now it's only in the competition article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I patiently disagree. It is not a specialist hook. ALT3a is not reliant on knowing the ensemble, it is not reliant on knowing the importance of the ensemble. It tells any reader that - after winning that prize - she went into ensemble playing, which is almost quirky and says much more about her than the prize alone. It tells people who know the ensemble a bit more, and it tells people who know that it is one of the "most prestigious" ensembles of contemporary music, possibly the most prestigious ensemble, yet a bit more, and I like that. See also my story on Schoenberg's 150th birthday, with a 2010 hook and a 2014 hook, - the latter a hook about his 40th birthday on his 140th birthday (review). I'm quite proud of that ;) - (I didn't even try for this year. imagine why. I brought him to OTD instead.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Given that they are knowledgeable about DYKINT, asking Launchballer to weigh in on the hooks, and if possible to give this nomination a tick so this can move forward already. In the interest of compromise, I am asking Launchballer to check ALT3a, ALT4a, and ALT5, although for now I am leaving ALT3a struck unless Launchballer says it can proceed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Date of death

This source says she died on Friday 9 August. Not sure if it is reliable. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Better than nothing, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)