Talk:Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

FAC version

After a one-month rewrite, I'm now sending it to peer review before FAC. Don't revert/restore old sections, discuss them here if you feel an absolutely need to do so, and copyedit this article for any spelling/grammar. - Mailer Diablo 23:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

While we are doing this, I strongly recommend anyone to go to the library and get a book recently released by the LTA on Singapore's public transport. It has tonnes of info we can add into this article, especially on its history. Remember our history section is still not mentioning a thing on the "MRT Man"! :D--Huaiwei 11:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Yup, I did that already. It's "The Journey - Singapore's Land Transport Story.". The main purpose is not really to add new stuff, since what should be here is already here, it's more to verify the facts and figures. And if we do it'll be on the history sub-page, this is rather big! (32k already) Not too sure what you're referring to on the MRT man though, may have missed that. :P - Mailer Diablo 14:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Shacks....again I forgot the name of that MRT man! Do you have access to the book now, I hope? There was extensive literature on him in there if I remember correctly. We cant do without a mention of him in this article...seriously.--Huaiwei 15:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL, I guess I have to make another trip before...on the day before I send it for FAC. - Mailer Diablo 15:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, we need to formalise and edit our sub-pages, so they can stand as articles on their own. ;-) -- Natalinasmpf 12:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Right, let's do that while this is under peer review. - Mailer Diablo 14:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

We need more photos for the stations. :D --Terence Ong ^|Talk 03:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

This article cant really take too many station photos liao lah. I dare you guys to snap the patrolling cops of the MRT unit for our security section! :D--Huaiwei 12:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Then why MTR have so many photos. --Terence Ong ^|Talk 15:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Coz the text there is longer, allowing for more space for more photos? Anyhow the number is just one small concern. I hope we can have better quality ones. I dont see how much value a tonne of badly-composed photos lacking in detail can contribute to this site anyway. :D --Huaiwei 16:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

• Too many photos is better than having a shortage of photos. - Mailer Diablo 16:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

We may like to improve the template like

. --Terence Ong ^|Talk 17:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Erm...I am not so sure if the colour parade is exactly good for this article. Come to think of it, why do we keep using the MTR article as a "template", when London Underground is also an FA article? I actually consider the London article far more all-rounded and more professional-looking as a whole.--Huaiwei 03:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

• Will be hopefully applying for FAC after the coming weekend. Let me know if you guys need more time though. - Mailer Diablo 15:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I wanna get that LTA book leh. Also I hope we can get a better map drawn.--Huaiwei 16:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
    • We need more time actually. The History of the Mass Rapid Transit article needs attention. You may like to take a look and make it better as it is important for MRT's sub-pages to be of same standard of the main page. Which library has the book? The national library? --Terence Ong ^|Talk 16:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
      • Dont worry so much about the sub-pages as it isnot actually an FAC requirement. But we do need to check if important information are missing, so that we can cut back on the not so important ones. The book can be borrowed from the national library indeed. I feel like buying one copy thou. :D--Huaiwei 16:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
• Well I've got the 'MRT Man's' name already - "Lim Leong Geok", son of Lim Bo Seng. CEO of PMRTA. Don't worry, I'll add two more citations and whatever's nessecery later on, before sending it off to FAC. - Mailer Diablo 18:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Wah I finally got hold of the book a second time. :D--Huaiwei 12:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

good article

I suggest we nominate this for Wikipedia:Good articles before trying for FAC. Then at least we have something to be satisfied about. ;-) -- Natalinasmpf 08:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, overseas now on a vacation. Luckily cafes provide computers for free internet access. :P If we can pass through good articles then we go for FAC, but anything is fine with me. --Terence Ong ^|Talk 09:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• I thought we don't have to, because we're sending it for FAC once the peer review is finished. I'm quite confident it should make it through. :P - Mailer Diablo 15:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Wayyy too much blue links

There is quite a lot of (what I feel) is unneccesary linkage in this article. several paragrahs have 4+ links. Excessive linkage makes an article hard to read and looks unprofessional. something to consider ....novacatz 16:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't find this necessarily so. On the other hand, links give the article a sense of "concreteness" and I actually find an article without links harder to read with lots of links...this is Wikipedia; having lots of links to other concepts is typical of any good Wikipedia article. How is it unnecessary? Natalinasmpf 17:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Apart from linking to years (which IMHO is always a bit redundant), the level of linkage looks about right to me. Linking is the strength of wikipedia, having terms like 'rolling stock' and 'third rail' linked means if they're unfamiliar terms, you'll quickly become an expert. Can you give an example of a paragraph which is over the top? Stevage 00:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Copyediting Work Done on This Article

After I noticed that the first undone task on the to-do list is copyediting, I took the liberty (and the task) to do some copyediting work. I rewrote some sentences and/or split them up to make them read better, and corrected some language nuances here and there, as well as providing some minor info (why nobody bothered to mention that the single-trip versions of the EZ-Link card is called Standard Tickets?). However, I know that there are still some problems with this article - duplicate links are everywhere! I am unable to track all of them down with ease, so I do appreciate it if somebody is willing to check on this article for such links. A.K.R. 16:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Just realised the fares section made no mention on transfers between lines, btw. Not all rail systems allow one to go into and out of the entire network via two gates. Even nearby KL dosent have it!--Huaiwei 16:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Article too long?

Remember we made so much effort to "manage the size" of this article? I am beginning to wonder if we are kinda over-zealous about it. :D If one tries to copy the text into word and do a word count minus the captions, referencing, and other text not in the main article, it presently amounts to just under 3,500 words here. In comparison, the MTR article has over 5,000, while the London Underground one has over 5,600.

• Did we over-summarise?? :D--Huaiwei 19:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

• I think we did fine. The other two articles were promoted on the basis of around this length. It was after on the frontpage that they now end up with > 5,000 words. - Mailer Diablo 07:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• We are already over the preferable article size limit; let's not stretch it any further. Also, in terms of summarisation, it looks fine to me. A.K.R. 12:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Not that long actually. It's just fine. We need some polish up like more images for station articles as most of the MTR and Underground stations have. --Terence Ong ^|Talk 15:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Alright then. I am being way too concerned about this article due to the FAC I suppose? :D--Huaiwei 08:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Fruit of the Labour!

It's going for FAC now! Let's hope that our efforts have paid off well! =D - Mailer Diablo 04:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Extending a journey

I note the following line was added recently:

...extend a trip mid-journey, and pay the difference as they exit their destination station.

What this actually mean, because it is not clear if it involves leaving the fare gates or staying within it?--Huaiwei 08:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• They go to the station master. - Mailer Diablo 08:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Er? You mean someone can get out of a station, go shopping, then come back and ask the station master to let them in and pay for the two trips as thou they are one? If this is so, I didnt know, and I will be quite happy to know it! :D--Huaiwei 09:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Date formats

There has been attempts by quite a few to remove links to "solitary years" in dates, and this request suffaced again in this FAC nomination. I removed a few in the beginning of the article, but that was reverted. This is getting confusing...--Huaiwei 09:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• Date formats are fixed and now fine...Leave as they are. :) - Mailer Diablo 17:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

usage by commuters

This was raised up on the FAC page. We should emphasise the fact that yes, all of this is built for commuters, but we should also state the reactions/successes of it. I presume this could be appended easily. It could also be something covered by each section, especially fares in relation to ridership, history of any ridership, as well as a breakdown of ridership in general, peak hours, etc., who the demographics of riders are, where are the busy points, etc, perhaps this could be later mentioned in the individual station articles. -- Natalinasmpf 22:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

merge safety and security

Frankly, these two are very similar, and could be merged (including their subarticles). This might also resolve NPOV issues in the long run, especially since there's something more substantial to write about as an introduction (in response to the protest of the use of "ensure" in the FAC submission). -- Natalinasmpf 01:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

They may sound similar, but the underlying concerns are quite different. The rise of terrorism as a global threat has perhaps led to an increase in security considerations, even if it can also be said to "ensure safety" of commuters be it due to accidents or a terrorist attack. I would think there is likely to be much scope for expansion in both pages in their own right. Saying the MRT Police Unit was formed and that bins has been moved to the entrances due to "safety" concerns seems to be an inaccurate statement. Saying the CCTV system was implimented and the considerations in adding barriers to prevent falls due to "security" concerns are kindoff off-the-mark too, although one can say there is a small overlap between the two.--Huaiwei 12:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Right now their sub-pages are a bit scanty. They could benefit from a merger. -- Natalinasmpf 02:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

They have to be short because we cant expand on this article much further without breaching rules over its size. Main articles exist for both topics for further expansion.--Huaiwei 03:21, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but they really are quite the same - they are both dedicated to safety. Terrorism is a much different problem than people sticking their fingers into sliding doors for example, but the benefit is ultimately the same. They can both expand on the same page, given that the ultimate mission of safety is still similar, and that terrorism is just an extreme safety problem. -- Natalinasmpf 03:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thats generally true as I alluded above, but these articles are centered on the means of arriving at a seemingly common aim, and the means are quite obviously diferent. How do the "please mind the gap" annoucements contribute to security concerns on the MRT, for instance? The only major overlap I could think of is the CCTV system, which even then has been clearly indicated as a safety rather then security requirement, although its use for the later has suddenly become evident in recent years.--Huaiwei 04:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

future lines

It is mind-boggling why the graphic of future lines is placed there since it is not done by SMRT itself? "Artist impression"? I remember reading on the New Paper that it was done by a secondary school boy (not that I don't trust his abilities or anything, but while he may be talented, you must admit he isn't "professional"). Can a stronger disclaimer be placed in there?

This has been discussed at length before. Anyhow if it was done by SMRT, it wont have appeared in wikipedia at all.--Huaiwei 12:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

okay, my bad. some suggestions: "in the future by 2015" change to just "in the future" "scheduled extensions" to "speculated extensions" Cmyk 12:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Or just "An artist's speculation on future extensions of the MRT network in addition to the current three lines." 202.156.6.54 12:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Speculation" seems to suggest that those lines are pure works of fantasy by one artist. The fact is they are mentioned and drawn in numerous publications of the said authorities, including that of the LTA and the URA.--Huaiwei 12:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

relcatioh of data section

This was relocated:

Stations are divided into two areas, paid and unpaid, which allow the rail operators to collect fares by restricting entry only through the fare gates, also known as access control gates. These gates, connected to a computer network, are capable of reading and updating electronic tickets capable of storing data, and can store information such as the initial and destination stations and the duration for each trip; fares are calculated on the basis of this information.

To me,I thought it belonged better on "facilities" as it just helped tie in or transition between the sections better. -- Natalinasmpf 02:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

History of the Mass Rapid Transit

Isn't anyone going to remove the attention sign. Or should we do a major edit to the article? --Terence Ong ^|Talk 04:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, we need to fix our sub-pages, prevent redundancy, and update them with the new information and language (from the copyediting) on the page. And the reorganisation of details, too. -- Natalinasmpf

• That sign is not going. It's in bits and pieces that need a lot of fixing. A lot is missing from the article to be exact. - Mailer Diablo 20:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Malay name

I added the Malay name of the system as "Sistem Rel Ringan", which I acquired from the web. However, I do wonder if this is wholely correct, so I would call for all to help ask around and verify this. Thanks!--Huaiwei 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

"Sistem Rel Ringan" literally means "Light Rail System". Not sure if it refers to MRT or LRT thoguh.... Hayabusa future 10:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Then that would be refering to the LRT right? Do you know the correct name for the MRT? Or is it simply the same as the English name?--Huaiwei 10:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the correct name for it, but it's not "Sistem Rel Ringan" for sure, as according to Berita Harian (BH) [1] it refers to the LRT. A probable translation for Mass Rapid Transit will be "Sistem Transit Massa." Anyway I tried searching within BH, but from the results it seems like they always call it "MRT". Hayabusa future 11:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Just wanna say this article looks great too. Seems to be destined for a "featured article" status already. :-) Hayabusa future 11:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah...so perhaps we can rename it as Sistem Transit Massa for now since we know for sure Sistem Rel Ringan is wrong? I did some searches, but its notoriously difficult to look for Malay names. I keep experiencing the same difficulty when it comes to adding Malay names for many other sg-related articles too. If only google has Malay language searches!--Huaiwei 12:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Fauzi has helped to correct the Malay name as "Sistem Pengangkutan Gerak Cepat". Thanks for the assistance, Fauzi! ;)--Huaiwei 18:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Justing helping out. Pretty new in this wiki editing so I thought I'll learn a few things by doing this. Anyway, "Sistem Pengangkutan Gerak Cepat" is usually heard of or seen in the local Malay-language media. You can google this phrase and you will see what I mean :-) For other sg-related Malay definitions, you can ask me. --fauzi 19:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Thats great to hear. ;) Anyhow, isnt sistem = system, which would mean the above stands for "MRT System"? If we only want the Malay phrase for the "MRT", can we drop the word sistem?--Huaiwei 07:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not so sure.. without the "sistem", it would mean something like "Rapid Carrier" or "Rapid Transporter". I guess it would work, but I have never heard it being used that way before. --fauzi 09:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh in that case I will leave it as it is, since I am no expert! :D--Huaiwei 13:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

C751B Cars

Apparently, not all C751B cars have LED & LCD displays installed in them. I was on one two days ago and it didn't have LED or LCD displays installed. Quite shocking actually, thought all C751B trains already had them installed. The space where the LCD screen would have been has this white board thing (looks like a piece of cardboard). Its either SMRT ran out of money to install them in this train (haha, as if) or its a new train. After all, the place where the LED would have been doesn't have any drill holes in it, meaning nothing was ever installed on that surface & meaning nothing was ever removed. Should this very minor minor detail be written in the C751B page? Its nothing major, just thought you might want to know. Ignoramus

I suppose it must be a new train or they are doing something else. :D --Terence Ong ^|Talk 05:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you will like to provide the carriage number so that we can check it out? Russianroulette2004^|Talk 11:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

How about a section for SMRT/SBS Transit/LTA experimental programmes?

Like the bum rests of C651 trains, luggage racks of C751B trains and tv screens of C151 trains which were all experimental programmes, how about a section devoted to it?

Other experimental programmes include 1. New GTM Card Reader being tested at some GTMs at City Hall Station. You don't insert the card to top up the value at this GTM, you simply place it on the reader. (Should this be added to the GTM section? This is minor so I don't know if it deserves to be added) 2. The Passenger Information System & terrestial TV monitors @ the Woodlands Extension Stations. In 1996, there were tvs at each station showing tv programmes I think. Not only that, these stations were the first to feature LED screens at concourse level showing train arrival times and enhanced flip dot displays at platform level showing next train arrival time. 3. Music being played at stations in late 1990s to 2000s. 4. ezlink mobile top up service. One small machine for passengers to top up their card by tapping on it. After that authenticate that transaction thru the mobile phone that is. There are more but I can't really remember now. Ignoramus

Or should it all come under a new section called "technologies in the MRT"? Btw...do remember to sign your comments.--Huaiwei 17:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of technologies, some time ago I edited List of current systems for electric rail traction and added the specs for our trains. Perhaps we can add in the specs for the future Circle Line if we know anything about it. --fauzi 10:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Possible additions

1. I think people would be interested to know how fast the trains move in the lines owned by SMRT and SBS.

• All in the specific articles. SMRT 80kmh, SBS 90kmh, Average 45kmh. - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Suggest the points be made in this article as well, since they're quite basic level info like overall ridership, length of lines. Akikonomu 05:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

2. Under safety on MRT, can mention the red plunger system and the fines for abuse.

• See Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit. Abuse has been mentioned. - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

3. Again under safety, article has not been updated with the spate/surge of accidents in the 2000s, mostly involving people 'falling' into the tracks while running to board the train.

• There were calls for platform screen doors to be installed at above-ground stations after several incidents in which passengers were killed by oncoming trains when they fell onto the railway tracks at above-ground stations. However, the authorities rejected the proposal, because of doubts over functionality and concerns about the high installation costs. - Mailer Diablo 08:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• • I understand. I was suggesting more detailed info on the falling incidents (dates and stuff), like what we have on Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit. Akikonomu 05:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

4. Under security, it is not mentioned that the CCTV system, until very recently, had no recording function. Fact was only revealed when SMRT said it is impossible to review footage of the early 2000s 'falling' accidents.

• Will be added. - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

5. Fares and tickets: People would be interested to know that the tickets have a time limit to them, unlike the RT systems in some other cities.

• Tickets for single trips, coloured in green, are valid only on the day of purchase, and have a time allowance of 30 minutes beyond the estimated travelling time. Tickets that can be used repeatedly until their expiry date require a minimum amount of stored credit. - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

6. Recent adoption of (so far) silent video displays in trains (NEL only?)

• Needs verification, will be added in Alstom Metropolis Cars upon confirmation. - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

7. Privacy issues: will people want to know how long the records of their train journeys are stored in the MRT database, especially under the EZlink card system? Given that (again, numbers need to be found) a fair proportion of EZlink users opted to link their IC identifications with their cards, this might be a Big Brother type issue. (I recall the introduction of the cards gave discounts of $2-3 if users opted to link to their identification)

• I'm considering the issue on EZ-Link itself. You can help edit and improve the article, too! - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Akikonomu 03:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for the comments! :) - Mailer Diablo 08:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Woo! Actually the more we think about this topic, the more we will realise "something" is "missing", and I suppose that is normal, since there has to be a limit somewhere as to what we can squeeze into it. For example, I just realised it makes no mention on the government's dillema on introducing competition between the two rail operators, and how there was talk on the possible exchange of resources which may lead to SMRT operating the entire MRT network. Still, maybe we can put that in Rail transport in Singapore instead (since it also touches on the LRT)? Hmm....--Huaiwei 04:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• My day job consists of editing, copywriting (esp. clarifying and shrinking lines), and laying the smackdown on style guidelines. I'll be glad to help once the points are all basically there and you want someone to look through and polish. Just drop a note in my user talk page Akikonomu 05:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Considering we may have only a few days before the nomination ends, you might wish to consider doing the editing now. If that is not possible, we can always do it after the nomination anyway, for FAs arent exactly the end of the road, and they can always be improved further. ;)--Huaiwei 06:14, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Concerning the "missing elements", yeah, we have to remind ourselves to concentrate on the commuter experience and any uniqueness (as that is what attracts the reader), not just the grand new facilities the government builds. ;-) -- Natalinasmpf 05:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

After FAs is not the end of the world. :) Like what Huaiwei and Natalinasmpf said, we can give the uniqueness to readers about our MRT. I really hope this article will be promoted. We need lots of improvements to this articles. :P --Terence Ong ^Talk 07:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• Hmm uniqueness...
  • Single trip contactless smart card tickets are unique I guess. Most metros stick to contactless smart tokens or magnetic cards for single trip tickets. Not only can much be said about this being unique, you can give plus points and bad points about this system too like how in a good way, the LTA can save money and maintenance fees in that it only has to maintain one fare collection system with no moving parts & no need to collect used tickets from each fare collection gate. But the bad point is that this system inconveniences the passenger.
  • Right from the start, passengers can view system maps knowing that every rail station is listed. Not every city lists all its rail stations, no matter how small they are, as long as they are run by different operators.
  • The thing about plasma displays on platforms (as opposed to LED displays) is already mentioned earlier, as is the thing about one card for everything since the 1990s, without passing thru multiple gates etc.
  • The different yellow lines on the platform. In the mid 1990s trials were carried out to test out different types of lines to see which one would guide passengers best in getting people to line up properly to board the train and to facilitate people getting out. THIS IS NOT MENTIONED AT ALL.
  • Can't think of more in just 10mins. More will pop up in time...

Ignoramus 11:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Re : "ensure" safety issue

File:Ensure-safety-sbs.jpg

Letter to The Straits Times, published on website on Dec 24, preserved as a record for debate. (STI has a 3day online website expiration policy)

More history of SMRT

Wrong year, and missing citations (probably check the sg e-Hansard if it was discussed in Parliament). Ngiam Tong Dow mentioned in an interview/talk this year that the USSR offered in the mid 1960s to build an MRT system for Singapore for $1 bn. The decision by Parliament to plan to build the MRT at $5 bn was made in the late 1970s - not in the 1960s as is written in the article. Akikonomu 05:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

egads, I hate having some people hijack this section.

The reference is this: Ngiam Tong Dow, address to the Economic Society of Singapore, 15 January 2004. Very few of us will know that the USSR government offered to build Singapore an MRT in the mid 1960s. According to Howe Yoon Chong, who was Permanent Secretary (National Development) then, we could have had the MRT system built for less than $1 billion if we had accepted the Russian offer. When Singapore decided to build the MRT in the late 1970s, it would cost us $5 billion. Akikonomu 03:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

A url link please?--Huaiwei 20:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The entire speech was reproduced in the ST Commentary page, probably on or around their 16 January issue. I don't subscribe to ST online, so I can't find it. However, the article was also printed by Business Times, at http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/storyprintfriendly/0,4568,105455,00.html - which again works only for subscribers. Akikonomu 02:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Bah! Needed the link to counter-check and for referencing purposes. You dont have the article title, auhor and page number by any chance?--Huaiwei 06:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"Lessons from 40 years of policymaking in Singapore" in Business Times, 16 January 2004. No author since it's a direct transcript of Ngiam's speech to the Economic Society. The Zaobao 16 Jan article is "前高级公务员严崇涛：政府地价政策不合理, 导致经济竞争力丧失" by 郑英豪. The ST article printed excerpts from his speech on 16 Jan as well, in "Ex-top civil servant speaks up on policy misses" Akikonomu 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I've found the BT article and copy it to my user subpage User:Vsion/Ngiam Tong Dow. It was copied from the forum page [2]. Quite interesting. :D --Vsion 04:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

That could go well with our history sub-page, I suppose? :) - Mailer Diablo 04:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Some other section

Given the failure to address challenges to the accuracy and neutrality of the article, I've added the appropriate templates to the page. Monicasdude 23:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

My perception is that you are doing this out of spite. There are a lot of worse articles out there, (you should really see some other really patronising articles!), and you didn't even bring this up at peer review, nor did you add the tags while it was FAC. I don't even see what you are contesting on this talk page. -- Natalinasmpf 23:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Many have gave positive feedback, and constructive criticisms. You said please stop talking about me and resume discusssing the article. It is basically trying to cover up, you cannot admit that. Your character is mysterious. I will remove the weasel tag. What nonsense is that, this is basically harassment. This is Wikipedia please? --Terence Ong ^Talk 03:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Could you explain in further detail. Stop ignoring my comments. Your behaviour is unsactisfactory. You first remove my comments on your talk page. What are you going to do next? --Terence Ong ^Talk 07:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

warning tags

The edits of [3], [4], [5] have removed 'disputed' tags (or items similar). There is clearly a dispute on this page. Why not leave the tags until the dispute is resolved?

One of the edit summaries suggest that the 'disputed' tags are not good faith edits. I see no evidence that the editor does not sincerely believe that the adding the 'disputed' tag is accurate and appropriate.

Another edit summary suggests that the 'disputed' tag is unnecessary because the article will be improved. However, the purpose of a 'disputed' tag is to mark the current version. Clearly, any article is likely to be improved in the future. How long need dispute resolution take in order for a 'disputed' tag to be appropriate? --BostonMA 14:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is spill over from tissues. Far too much of this dispute has been personalized, and harping on the personality conflicts has become an excuse for avoidihat editor's unsucessful dispute on the FAC page. He is unhappy that the other editors disagreed with the changes he wished to make and has been waging a campaign about the issue on several fronts. He disputes a referenced fact in the article but refuses to provide any other reference which might support his viewpoint. The "weasel word" (and I'm fairly certain this doesn't qualify) is the word ensure in the first sentence of the Safety paragraph -- he prefers the word promotes instead. Honestly, I don't think either tag applies in this case and he's been welcomed any number of times to continue the discussion if he is still unhappy with the wording, or provide references for his other claim. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 14:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it is disputed whether the measures taken amount to an effort to ensure safety. Are there verifiable sources supporting the fact that these measure do in fact amount to an effort to ensure safety? Are we taking the word of the Transit authority on this matter? Would that not be non-NPOV if there are others who dispute that these measure do in fact amount to efforts to ensure safety? --BostonMA 14:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Read extensive comments already posted in the relevant FA nomination.--Huaiwei 15:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Could you provide diffs or relevant sections please --BostonMA 17:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Other references for the word ensure [6], [7]. So it doesn't appear that its just the Transit authority making the claim. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 15:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The references you provide include a letter and a newspaper article that is clearly an interest piece. I believe these qualilfy as Dubious sources and require attribution within the article. --BostonMA 17:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

It's within the text itself already. - Mailer Diablo 17:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I would argue that a citation or footnote is not the same thing as an attribution. By an attribution, I would understand a statement such as "According to Jane Smith, Communists are evil". Merely footnoting a statement such as "Communists are evil" would hardly be adequate, because it does not warn the reader that the statement is only one of several possible POV's.

However, we seem to be straying a bit from the question of whether there exists a good-faith factual dispute. Even if you provide references, that does not mean that the other side cannot in good faith dispute the facts. This is especially true if the references are Dubious sources. It appears to me that the dispute is sincere. --BostonMA 21:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm planning to rewrite that section of prose to something that we can agree upon, and I ask for your patience and understanding in the meantime. We are all tired out by an ongoing conduct dispute that's inhibiting us from getting things properly done. - Mailer Diablo 01:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll just note, for the record, that I posted fairly detailed comments about verifiability and and NPOV problems here, for example, [8] and that Wikipedia policy issues I cite remain unresolved; and that a second editor, user:enochlau, posted even more extensive comments about the same policy ng substance. Monicasdude 15:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

• The security camera doubt raised during FAC is ressolved, with another letter from the operator in the print media to clear the air. [9] - Mailer Diablo 18:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The next natural step

Is to nominate this FA to the main page in Wikipedia talk:Tomorrow's featured article. Maybe we can take some time to further polish it up abit more and take into account some suggestions made in the FA nomination prior to doing so as well? ;)--Huaiwei 14:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure do! :D - Mailer Diablo 15:47, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This is great! --Terence Ong ^Talk 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

upcoming tasks

Well we've done it, we've achieved FA, but we still have a few tasks to do that are preferably done before it reaches the main page: I've updated the todo list. We should work on our subpages now. It's preferable to establish a bit more integration as we've remembered to link the sections (it's a basically if you see the oppurtunity, do it kind of thing), perhaps in a cause and effect kind of way. (Ie. Reduce road use means using rolling stock, which requires rail facilities. which requires ticketing, security and safety.) That way, citing facts like train speed et al. doesn't seem so random as part of a carefully constructed presentation. -- Natalinasmpf 03:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I am moving the safety and security sections towards the bottom as requested by someone (cant rem who) in the FA nomination, which made sense for subjective sections seems better off towards the bottom then right on top?--Huaiwei 04:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It was Enoch who suggested it. Should we merge it to Safety and Security on the Mass Rapid Transit? --Terence Ong ^Talk 10:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I had a discussion with Natal on this above, and there was no agreement yet. She feels they should be merged, while I would think they may be better seperated. Hope the rest of you may chip in with your opinions.--Huaiwei 14:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

System Map

I want to add a section about the evolution of the MRT system map but do not know where to place it without pissing people off. I figured that under The Mass Rapid Transit network a link to a main article could be made, detailing the change in graphical layout of the system map, the reasons behind it, its good and bad points etc.Ignoramus 10:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The history section is a good place to put it. --Terence Ong ^Talk 17:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the history sub-article is better. Then I can add an image of the old map as well. :D - Mailer Diablo 19:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It has been added. However, I need someone to confirm that the colours are correct, and to add the pictures of the maps, wiki it, and maybe edit it a little to look better (nothing major, really). Spent a long time typing it, very tired. But at least the MRT articles and sub articles are starting to fatten up. Very detailed. Ignoramus 05:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I dont see a single map in History of the Mass Rapid Transit?--Huaiwei 17:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, added an old map which was lying in my system for ages =) Mailer diablo, is your map before or after Woodlands Extension? If its before, I can add the extension to this map, or post the "horizontal version"(the one you see on SMRT trains, on the advertisement panels), so we'll have a more comprehensive collection. :P Advanced 19:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The page is much better now. Glad to see the old map for readers. Gives an impression of how the system was like when it opened. --Terence Ong ^Talk 05:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I found a small error with the map. In that version (before the Woodlands Extension), "Marina Bay" was simply marked as "South". It was after the Woodlands Extension that it was changed to "Marina Bay". Similarly, if I remember correctly, "North" was relabelled "Woodlands" after the extension.A.K.R. 12:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it? I didn't know about that. Quite surprising to me though. North and South as in where, the station or the line? --Terence Ong ^Talk 12:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok Errors Corrected. North and South/Woodlands and Marina Bay refers to the area in Singapore, labelled on the old map. 202.156.6.54 18:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Station Infobox

Jurong East MRT Station

Current Code	NS1/EW24
Previous Code	W9
Malay	Jurong East
Chinese	裕廊东
Tamil	ஜூரோங் கிழக்கு
Location	Jurong East
Operational	10 March 1990
Operator	SMRT Corporation
Lines	North South, East West
Platforms	4 (elevated)
Levels	3
Escalators
Elevators
Exits

Around four to five months ago, Huaiwei proposed this station infobox. I'm thinking of it and there will be a slight modification from this. Any suggestions? You may like to look at Quarry Bay (MTR) and Tai Koo (MTR), also look at Oxford Circus tube station if you have any improvements to Huaiwei's template. --Terence Ong ^Talk 12:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks much cleaner. We should allow a space for a photo, if need be. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 04:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Much cleaner than which one? I would prefer a photo than a station map. --Terence Ong ^Talk 05:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Much cleaner than the current way we list information for stations. We could add room for a second photo at the end of the infobox, mainly for stubs we have photos, but not information with. The problem is that we need statistics. Where can we find them? Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 05:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

That is very hard to find all these stuff. The operators do not reveal the station stats which I don't think is good. I've also modify the infobox above a bit. --Terence Ong ^Talk 05:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Why not try adding line colours into the infobox? (e.g. Red for North-South Line, Green for East-West Line, etc.) --01:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)Raphaelmak

Chinese Translation of MRT

I don't understand why someone translates the Mass Rapid Transit into 大众快速列车. The Chinese translation is not a direct one for all cases. --Russianroulette2004 ^Talk 05:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The translation was sourced from the net, or someone put it in, so unless you can show its inaccurate, there is no reason to remove it. I arent too sure what you mean by "The Chinese translation is not a direct one for all cases" anyway.--Huaiwei 11:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

“大众快速列车 is definitely wrong. It should be “大众捷运” in full and “捷运” in short. (大众 = mass, 捷 = rapid, 运 = transit/transport) It is the same as Taiwan, as they use the term "Mass Rapid Transit (MRT)" too. Moreover, SBS Transit's Mandarin corporate name is “新捷运”, as heard on national radios and TV. --Kenneth88 20:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

While 捷运 is also acceptable, I am quite sure that when I was in Taipei, they called their MRT 地铁 too.--Huaiwei 20:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I've checked with my Taiwanese friend and he said that they refer to their MRT as “大众捷运” and “捷运” only. However, they also know what “地铁” is, but do not use the term. It is just like Singaporeans knowing what "Metro" and "Subway" are, but do not use them. Okay, back to the main point: I think we should just use “大众捷运”, “捷运” and “地铁”. I did not mention about “大众捷运” and “捷运” just only because Taiwan MRT uses them. The other reason is that I have recently heard national radio and TV using the terms “新捷运” when refering to rail operator SBS Transit. “大众快速交通” also sounds like it is in simple and informal Mandarin. “地下铁路” must be removed as it only refers to completely-underground systems.--Kenneth88 19:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, "I did ... Taiwan MRT uses them." My original point of contention was "大众快速交通". You all have spent so much time on this article and I don't want the first few lines to discredit the rest of the article. We shouldn't really include non-localised versions of references to MRT like “捷运”; they are indeed very rare in the papers despite being the same length as “地铁”. But again, that's a less major point to me.—Goh wz 18:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it was right of Goh wz to remove the term "大众快速交通". We should just have the name "地铁" only, until we can find solid evidence that "大众快速交通" is used officially.--Kenneth88 15:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed the name "大众快速交通" from the currently discussed article on 15 January, thinking that it was probably done by someone whose Chinese just can't make it. Unexpectedly, my change was reverted within one hour, and from then, I embarked on some research on the Chinese name of Wikipedia MRT.

Reading the current talk page after five days, I'm quite annoyed at how the benefit of the doubt is blindly given to the editor who added the name "大众快速交通". When Huaiwei reverted my changes, I thought that she specifically knew that "大众快速交通" was a correct name. Referring to her his comment on 19 January, this was not the case: it was a case of benefit of the doubt given to any random page on the net or the editor who added it in. However, we'll just adopt her his approach since we're all in the business of making Wikipedia articles better.

Kenneth88 noted that the Chinese name of Singapore's MRT system should follow that of Taiwan just because the English name is the same. This assumes a one-to-one mapping within everything in Chinese and everything in English. Truth is, we might just name our systems differently in Chinese and in English.

For clarity, I would also like to bring up one point: one Chinese term being a direct translation from English does not automatically render the Chinese term a valid name for the termed object. In our case, that "大众快速交通" is a direct translation from English does not warrant that it is a correct, valid name for MRT. I cite the Octopus card. We cannot translate that into "章鱼卡" and declare it a correct Chinese name for the Octopus card just because it is a direct translation from English.

Research

My mini-research comprises of four parts:

1. Asking my friends: I've asked Seng Teck, Calvin, Hwee Leong, Michael, David, Juanhe, Li Qian and a few others and none of them said that they've heard of the term before. Michael and David spoke in defence of the term: "大众快速交通" is to "地铁" as Republic of Singapore is to Singapore. Republic of Singapore is a perfectly valid official name for Singapore, but we would always refer to Singapore as Singapore. However, many people still know Republic of Singapore to be a valid term, contrasting "大众快速交通" which no one I asked has heard before.
2. Asking my Chinese teachers: Only two teachers replied my questions. Ms Chew Siew Keng said that "大众快速交通" is unsuitable since it can refer to any mode of transport. "语文的使用应是“约定俗成”，如果一个词汇没被广泛人民接纳并熟悉，它很快就会消失。它的使用也就是“不规范”的。" Ms Lim Si Hui raised the Octopus card example which I borrowed at the start of this comment. She raised some principles of translation as well. She's never heard the term before as well, but distinctly recalled as a student that there's an article back in 1987 on the full name of MRT.
3. Consulting the 1987 papers: I went to the Tampines Library twice to view their microfilm archives of the 1987 Lianhe Zaobao on Ms Lim's advice. I at least skimmed each of the articles related to MRT from 1 November to 8 November. (The MRT service started in 7 November.) I didn't find the article on the full name of MRT. I found that each of their 39 articles (I'm assuming that my counting is accurate) referred to MRT only as "地铁". The terminology in the articles is demonstrated in the following paragraph which I quote from Lianhe Zaobao, 3 November 1987, p.3 《地铁储值车票　可以自由转让》: "地铁局助理交通经理（策划与行政）傅永成说，地铁通车后，地铁公司将派遣职员在出、入口闸门查票以检举买不足车资或滥用特待车票的搭客。" With this, I'm trying to show that the papers already used "地铁" as early as in 1987. Of course, the Republic of Singapore analogy applies: the papers will use Singapore to refer to Singapore even when Republic of Singapore is a correct term. However, at least when Singapore was formed, a mention will be made that Singapore's full name is Republic of Singapore. However, the papers made no mention of any full name of MRT even when the MRT service started.
4. Asking SMRT: SMRT will probably comment later. They're getting to know the situation from me now.

Conclusion

At the end of the day, very little people—even my Chinese teachers—have heard of the term "大众快速交通" before. The 1987 papers made no mention of this supposed full name of the MRT when the service started. With such rarity, I wonder what else would convince the Wikipedia community of the non-existance of a term.—Goh wz 06:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Whooaa!!! While we await for SMRT's response, I would just like to comment, that there is a similar difficulty in looking for a full, formal Malay name, since Malay newspaper articles regularly refer to it simply as MRT too. Attempting to find the full name in the earliest articles is actually not always productive, as newspapers are not obliged to do so, instead prefering to stick to common shorthand names. While few may have heard of this term (I myself hadent heard of it too either), it may not neccesarily signify its non existance. What we need to do now, is to actually find any evidence showing the non existance of a full name for the MRT in Chinese....not an easy task indeed.--Huaiwei 11:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

We've made it!

As you see, the article has appeared on the Main Page as Today's featured article. Let's take this as an honour for all of the SGpedians'. Well done, to Mailer Diablo and Huaiwei who have contributed significantly to the article. --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 01:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Wait is the article disputed? I distinctly remember it being reported in the Newpaper that someone had altered the Map of the system. If so they article will be void and the ariticle of the day award will be taken away.

haha ... nice try, but no, you can't take this away. :P , there's no dispute at all, read the news article again. --Vsion (talk) 08:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

This is jealousy, let's ignore this comment. --Terence Ong 01:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Style

Why is there a picture overlapping the text of the lead - and why is this immediately followed by an hard-to-read (undersized) image surrounded by white space? Rmhermen 16:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

These errors are probably because the Public Transport System logo got shifted to the right instead of the left when the article got edited, thus messing up the arrangement of images and text, and overlapping text for some browsers/resolutions. I have replaced it (the logo) back at its original position on the left. That should fix the problem. Thanks Advanced 18:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The logo appeared on the right side (probably got lost in transit in vandalism reverting), so I moved it back to the left side. It's not an ideal place, but it's better than overlapping text and images. Quite frankly, I think we have too many images in this article. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 22:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I've moved it to the right but at the bottom of the lead. There's no overlapping like that, so hopefully it should be fine. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 23:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Page hacked

Some jackass has quite obviously hacked this page. Does anyone know how to fix this? Mr President 22:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• This article is the featured article today. It is being fixed every 60 seconds or so.

-- That Guy, From That Show! ^(talk) 22:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Seriously I think the vandalism is more like pornography, putting porn pictures in it. Goodness. Maybe we should semi-protect pages when they are the FA for the day. --Terence Ong 01:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually, no: a lot of pages get fixed while they're on the main page by anons. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 03:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
      • ... including the anniversary / date of the year articles, and the "Did you Know" entries. Not just FA. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 03:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
        • I see. --Terence Ong 04:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

infobox and line specific

Okay, what do you think of an infobox like New York City Subway? It would be a good place for the logo. And that reminds me what is the MRT rail gauge anyway? Does anyone know?

Oh, our work is far from over :D. The work is now to provide information on each station, ie. its locality, size and passenger traffic, so we can eventually add more information on the lines itself. Then at least we have some decent material to summarise for the "network" section of this article. ;-) Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 01:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Please look at the infobox above, expansion of the station articles is needed. --Terence Ong 02:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but I meant an infobox for the main article in general. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 05:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Featured articles such as London Underground and MTR do not have infoboxes. I don't see a need of an infobox on the main article itself. --Terence Ong 07:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Additional Information about MRT Rolling Stock

I have noted the contributions made by user Guangyang on how to differentiate or spot the three rolling stocks found on the North South Line and East West Line. I would like to express my point that there needs to be some rewriting of this section before being posted onto Wikipedia. Indeed the information is of valuable importance it is essential that it is phrased nicely so that it is presentable, coherent, and easily understood for all. Russianroulette2004 11:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to be a bit harsh here, and I apologise for that. I think it fits into one criteria of WP:NOT, or else that will be useful. However, some of the information are useful and we can integrate them into differences section. We need to improve rolling stock articles and other MRT-related articles. I will find some time to do that when I'm free. --Terence Ong 13:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I have created a Trains on the Singapore MRT template and placed it into the 4 rolling stock articles, to help improve the articles a bit, and for easier navigation purposes. Any improvements made to the template et al,are welcome. Advanced 07:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice template, better for navigation like you said. Isn't anyone interested in the station infobox idea? --Terence Ong 15:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Individual Station Pages - Train Services Information Added

• Individual Station Pages - Train Services Information Added
• Train services information for the following individual station pages have been added and completed. Do not DELETE, but you may edit the format A BIT!
  • Woodlands
  • Yew Tee
  • Khatib
  • Yishun

• Train services information for all other individual station pages have not been added or not completed. Please help to ADD THE APPROPRIATE INFORMATION, BUT using the format that has been used in the above 4 station pages for a sense of continuity. Thanks.

• Shops & facilities for most stations are not complete. I can only probably finish off those for Khatib and Yishun and Yew Tee stations. Need help with other stations. Follow the rough format given in the above 4 pages. Thanks! Ignoramus

I believe that train arrival/ departure times are unencyclopedic. You may like to take a look at Central (MTR) and Baker Street tube station for examples. London Underground and MTR are featured articles, is best not to put all this, as it kind of violate Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Ignoramus, hope you can cooperate, not encyclopaedic at all frankly speaking. This information is quite hard to get actually. I understand that you have put in a lot of effort finding all this information, sorry. I do like the shops and facilities part though, I will add sections on exits and station vicinities. :) --Terence Ong 12:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• I am sorry if I may have upset you or annoyed you in any way :). I was under the wrong impression apparently on the type of info that could be put here. I had the info in my hands so I thought I would like to share it online. Ignoramus 12:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Its alright. Umm, you may like to start a blog or a website for all this info. This is very useful for this type of stuff. ;) --Terence Ong 12:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Future Expansion

• The artiste's impression has some fine notes at the bottom left but not everyone uses a 20" monitor so could someone increase the font size.

Academic text?

I cannot find any other source for this book:

• Sock, Y.P. and Walder, Jay H. (1999), Singapore’s Public Transport.

Maybe it does not exist? Does anyone know? --Ghormax 13:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not very sure about this, but I believe this book exists somewhere but cannot be found in the cyberspace. --Terence Ong 15:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

But it's strange that it cannot even be found in the NUS library, right? --Ghormax 16:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: I have looked through the genesis of this article and I think that perhaps this academic text is an unpublished paper. If so, it should be reverted to the earlier "Academic articles" --Ghormax 15:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Addition of "operational information", 22/6

Hi. I've added the bit on operational info, please delete if inappropriate. Two stats i omitted and need someone to fill in though: peak hour frequencies for yishun-yew tee and jurong east-yew tee. thanks. ----nigelfong, 22/6

Integration with Buses and Taxis

The rail lines have been constructed by the Land Transport Authority, a department of the government of Singapore, which allocates operating concessions to the profit-based corporations SMRT Corporation and SBS Transit. These operators also run bus and taxi services, thus ensuring that there is a full integration of public transport services.

I'm wondering if the line at the end of the introduction should be deleted. Is there truly a causal link between running bus and taxi services on top of the MRT lines and having a fully integrated public transport service? Or is it simply due to location and design - colocating MRT stations with bus interchanges, and having taxi stands outside MRT stations.

Bottom line, I think that sentence seems more like feel-good propaganda nonsense than a real, objective assessment. --Rifleman 82 02:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

"Location" is of course an important aspect of integration. Other considerations include the design of rail and bus routes, fares, operating hours, facilities, and ticketing system. The statement is accurate and informative. --Vsion 02:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

No arguments about it being integrated; it definitely is. But is the cause is by the same companies operating the MRT lines and bus, taxi services, of it occurred because of other factors? The integration had already occurred while MRT and SBS/TIBS were separate, independant entities. From the Farecard era on, there was already a great deal of integration between bus and rail. Which part is really due to the companies than to the framework put there not by the companies? Are SBS buses less integrated with TIBS/SMRT MRT lines? Or do you mean integration in the sense of the less competition between bus and rail lines in terms of routes, which probably benefit the companies more than the consumer? --Rifleman 82 06:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

We are still talking about the "full integration of public transport services", right? One can't deny that having the same operators does faciliate the integration. This is common in other cities, such as Los Angeles, where the Metro also operate buses. You stated that you "think that sentence seems more like feel-good propaganda nonsense " ; I hope you can better support or explain your statement. --Vsion 06:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the NEL is running at a deficit, last time I checked. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 06:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

A guy is in the woods, beating a tree with a stick. "Why are you beating the tree?" "Because it keeps the bears away." "But there are no bears here" "See! It works!" - Just because A and B occur at the same time need not imply A causes B or the reverse. I'm saying that the transport system IS integrated. To a point, at least. It certainly would be nice if it were integrated because the bus and train and taxi services were run by the same company. But is it necessarily the case? I don't think so. I think they are integrated simply because of how the infrastructure is built and designed than due to the efforts of the public transport companies. I say again, just because A and B occur, does not mean that A causes B. It's a simple point and I don't know why I keep needing to rephrase and reexplain it. --Rifleman 82 08:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but are you able to demonstrate that A didnt lead to B in this case then?--Huaiwei 12:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I may not be able to demonstrate definitively that A didn't lead to B. But I don't suppose it is an easy task to demonstrate that A actually did lead to B. In the context of an encyclopedia, it may be prudent to reword the statement without implying causality, or to remove the statement altogether rather than indulging in speculation and POV.

This is what I propose: 'The rail lines have been constructed by the Land Transport Authority, a department of the government of Singapore, which allocates operating concessions to the profit-based corporations SMRT Corporation and SBS Transit. These operators also run bus and taxi services. The rail network is well integrated with the public transport system. Many MRT stations have taxi stands. Many bus interchanges are co-located as well, connected by covered walkways, underpasses, or pedestrian bridges.'

Rifleman 82 16:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

An item is not considered "POV" (or flattering language, for a more accurate description of your discomfort with the said paragraph) unless proven false. I am still interested in seeing sources showing the lack of relationship between A and B, failing which your opinion that A dosent lead to B is itself a POV as well. Off my head I could think of several examples where A did lead to B, but I wont go into details at this time.--Huaiwei 17:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Pick any MRT station. For my example, I will use AMK MRT station. 10 or so years ago, while MRTC still ran the MRT, SBS and TIBS still ran their respective bus companies, the public transport system was already integrated:

1. the bus interchange was directly connected to the MRT station via an underpass
2. commuters changing between bus and MRT were given rebates
3. there was a taxi stand outside AMK MRT station

Causality dictates that if A causes B, A must occur before B. It is clear that event A (the mergers and consolidation of the public transport industry) did not cause event B (the integrated nature of the public transport system). --Rifleman 82 18:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I cant comment much on Ang Mo Kio since I didnt track changes in this town since the 1980s, but at least I am aware of the following:

• SBS resisted Transitlink's efforts to "remove dublication" (one of Transitlinks' primary objectives in its quest for transport integration) when the MRT first opened in the late 1980s, since it represented a direct negative impact on its pockets. In comparison, SBS Transit was happy to axe plenty of routes in the Northeast when the NEL opened, while SMRT was relunctant in reintroducing its popular express servies from Woodlands, all of whom were removed when the Woodlands extension opened for fear of "dublication".
• Both SBS Transit and SMRT announced changes to bus schedules to align them with that of the MRT system, in particular with that of the last train's arrival time. Companies were also more likely to amend bus routings to enhance bus-train connectivity. This has happened particularly when the company operates both the station and the interchange in the same location.
• Fare integration was introduced by the efforts of transitlink before multi-modal transport companies were conceived, but that does not stop SBS Transit from introducing a cap fare of S$1.90 for all bus-only journeys, which is in line with the maximum single-trip fare for the MRT.

You may wish to consider what entails an intergrated transport system here, which goes beyond mere physical and fare connectivity. Instead of looking only at Ang Mo Kio, where two companies operate the bus and rail systems, you may consider comparing it with that in another town where a single company runs everything, say Sengkang, which has its MRT, LRT and buses all running together as one.--Huaiwei 15:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Information on Individual Stations

I notice that individual articles of MRT stations on the North-South Line have information on train schedules and now, bus services nearby. Maybe can we discuss on what specific information to be placed in all such articles in order to standardise all information that we present on the Singapore MRT. --Russianroulette2004 07:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Downtown Extension NOW Downtown Line Phase 1

READ Dec 06 LTA tenders. DTE is now DTL Phase 1. Some info will have to be edited to reflect this name change.