Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes/Archive 42

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Need more relevant navigation template

Jack90s15, the title of the page (not quite correct) does not change the fact that the template Marxism–Leninism sidebar is more relevant here. See, for example, the lists of people in both templates. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 16:20, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Гармонический Мир: The side Bar does have the Communism portal in it that as lot of information about the subjectJack90s15 (talk) 16:41, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• Jack90s15, which information? Template Marxism–Leninism sidebar also contains links to the portals Communism and Socialism. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 16:56, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Гармонический Мир: it also fits with the name of the page Jack90s15 (talk) 00:02, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

• I think that we should pay attention not to the name of the page, but to its essence. This article is primarily about the Marxist–Leninist regimes. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 06:24, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

• Events described in the articles are wider than Marxism-Leninism:

1. The Red Terror was previous to the theorization of Marxism-Leninism and its adoption in the Soviet Union promoted by Stalin. Framing Red Terror within M-L is an anachronism. It is not even an unequivocal or logic precedent, as other Bolsheviks such as Leon Trotsky played a major role in it and were ardent opponents of M-L once it was theorized and installed.
2. Khmer Rouge's M-L is a controversial topic in academic debate, see Khmer Rouge#Marxist thought.
3. North Korea, after the adoption of Juche is also subject to debate.
4. In the case of China, the adherence to M-L and even Maoism after Deng Xiaoping is a matter of controversy, see: Ideology of the Communist Party of China.

So the essence of the article is not so evident. --MarioGom (talk) 17:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• MarioGom, yes, but templates "Communism" and "Communism sidebar" primarily relate to the theory of communism. I remain of the opinion that Marxism–Leninism templates are most appropriate here and on the page "Crimes against humanity under communist regimes". Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• Гармонический Мир: Why would the template relate only to theory? {{Communism}} relates to Communism (see Category:Communism too). The template has always included articles about both theory and practice. Anyway, why would that be relevant to {{Communism}} vs {{Marxism-Leninism}} here? --MarioGom (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
• MarioGom is right. The Communism sidebar explicitly has a "Theory and practice" section, and other sections such as "Internationals", "By region", "Anthem", and "People" include non-theory topics. The sidebar certainly does not relate exclusively to theory, and I don't even agree that it is primarily about theory. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• I think that non-theoretical items should be deleted from there as not inherent. Templates {{Communism}} and {{Communism sidebar}} are the most general templates on the theme of communism. Private, including practical, topics should be in a more specific templates. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• I disagree. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:39, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
• The template is currently not only about theory, even if you think it should. What about Marxism-Leninism? By your reasoning, shouldn't it be about only Marxism-Leninism theory too? This goes nowhere. I am concerned that most of your edits in these template go towards eliminating any trace of anything related to Marxism-Leninism from the Communism navigation templates. The reasons seem to be an afterthought: inclusion of Pre-Marxist figures, Template talk:Communism/Archive 1#Image, Template talk:Communism/Archive 1#Variants of variants of variants and then this thing about theory. You have been pushing for this direction for a few months already, without paying any attention to the multiple editors that have challenged some aspects of it. "Not paying attention" I mean getting over other editors by edit warring or stonewalling, like refusing to discuss sources when presented. I would suggest you to stop every edit in this direction, which by now you clearly know that is controversial, propose your changes in talk pages and engage in the discussion. Ultimately, we can solve some of these disputes with proper requests for comment if necessary. --MarioGom (talk) 07:11, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• For example, we don't include practical topics in the template {{TopicTOC-Physics}}, including nuclear weapons and atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why should communism templates be different from the general principle of compiling Wikipedia's navigation templates? And such templates as {{Marxism–Leninism sidebar}} have a more practical essence. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• Гармонический Мир: You may want to look at politics templates, which are more related to the communism templates than one about physics: {{Socialism}}, {{Anarchism}}, {{Liberalism}}, {{Conservatism footer}}, {{Fascism}}... the general trend is to include most notable aspects, including theory, key figures (theorists and politicians), major historic events, etc. But again, the theory vs practice question has no relation with the choice of navigation template to be included in this article. Instead of derailing the discussion by moving to tangential aspects: could you explain what change are you proposing (changing Communism navigation template with Marxism-Leninism in this article, I assume) and a clear rationale for the change? --MarioGom (talk) 12:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• The templates you refer to also require refinement, so as to exclude practical items from them and include them in more specific templates. Movement in this direction is already taking place (see this change). Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 13:17, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
• "could you explain what change are you proposing...?"

For example, I basically agree with this clarifying edit. And the rationale has been repeatedly given here and in other places. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 13:43, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• And repeatedly refuted. Please, check this comment above. --MarioGom (talk) 14:34, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• As for early Bolshevism, I agree that it's not entirely correct to call it Marxism–Leninism. As for the regimes of the Khmer Rouge, North Korea, and China, if they moved away from Marxism–Leninism (about which there are sources that claim that it's not communism), then they moved away from communism even further. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of cultural genocide

I removed sentences about cultural genocide via deportations that did not relate to mass killing and was reverted by User:7&6=thirteen with the explanation "Cultural genocide is part of the context and mechanism". That does not appear to be the case given the sources cited (the charge of cultural genocide did not relate to any mass killing in the sources provided) and I don't think this should be included based on past consensus for this article. Consensus can change, but I think these sentences are better suited to the Crimes against humanity under communist regimes article instead. AmateurEditor (talk) 04:12, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Recent additions

I don't find this correct, mostly because of the poor quality of sources. However, I agree that criticism of Courtois (as well of other figures) should be added, because these figures are obviously outdated and/or highly disputed. I propose to discuss how to do that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:04, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Katyn Memorial , Jersey City.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 and communism

The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation lists COVID-19 deaths as caused by communism. Reliable source? [1]--LucasGeorge (talk) 06:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

lmao. Omg. :-D RhinoMind (talk) 10:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

It seems they have taken the story down from their webpage now. RhinoMind (talk) 10:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)