Talk:Mater lectionis

Etymology and pronunciation

Can we get an etymology and pronunciation with this article. Would be very helpful. Also - I am unclear as to whether the system is historical or current. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.152.27.146 (talk • contribs) 04:54, 4 October 2005

Supplied translation of the Latin. The English-language pronunciation of "Mater Lectionis" can be variable. The system is currently used, but it's no longer the ONLY method of indicating vowels (as it was before the invention of the diacritic "points"). However, it's still the most frequently used method for writing vowels in Hebrew and Arabic. AnonMoos 16:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

2017

The etymology of the words themselves is useful, but has anyone got references with its history of usage? Was the term actually used by romans? Was there a previous term it replaced? Josephholsten (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

the term came into use in the early modern period (probably 16th century) among Christian Hebraists, at a time when the international language of scholarship in Western Europe was Latin... AnonMoos (talk) 10:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Examples, "מלא millō"

Where is מלא ever vocalized millō? It's typically male, although it is occasionally mlō. In any case, מלא is not an example of א as "mostly ā." This example should be deleted. -- חנינא — Preceding undated comment added 00:17, 30 August 2006

"Middle Kingdom"?

What is "middle kingdom" supposed to mean in the article? It sure doesn't mean the Egyptian middle kingdom (which is the most common meaning of the phrase "Middle Kingdom" in English). AnonMoos 16:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the most common meaning of the phrase "Middle Kingdom" in English is China, but I'm pretty sure that the article is not referring to China either. —Lowellian (reply) 00:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, in a scholarly ancient near east context, the most common meaning is the Egyptian middle kingdom... AnonMoos (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

"y"

is the letter "y" in english considered a Mater lectionis given it's usage as an effective vowel in words like sky? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.215.158.240 (talk) 00:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The concept is only related to Abjad scripts. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

And in any case the use of y as a vowel precedes its use as a consonant. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 11:52, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

ǣ

At the section Usage in Hebrew, I see the character ǣ used for י, but, what does it stand for? Is it meant to transcribe /ei/? --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:14, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I assume it's meant to be a transcription of segol-yod, as in אבותיך "your fathers, ancestors", which in fact probably was not pronounced ǣ... AnonMoos (talk) 22:39, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Short vowels

"In some words in Hebrew there is a choice of whether to use a mater lectionis or not, and in modern printed texts matres lectionis are sometimes used even for short vowels, which is considered to be grammatically incorrect,"

I think this needs further explanation. As far as I know, in Modern Hebrew vowel length is not phonemic. Presumably, "short vowel" here refers to biblical/classical phonology, and the modern spelling is still based on it. But it's not clear. Rcaetano (talk) 05:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

It's used for vowels which would be short in classical/historical terms, particularly in the Pu'al and Hoph'al (Huf'al) verb stems, where the u/o vowel marks passive. The modern spelling actually uses a ו (waw/vav) letter in cases where it wouldn't have ordinarily been used in Biblical spelling. Not sure about "grammatically incorrect", though -- it's fine as modern (not Biblical) Hebrew... AnonMoos (talk) 06:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Another example is in the name of the Likud party -- it would be spelled לכוד in traditional/classicizing orthography, since the "k" consonant was originally doubled, but ליכוד in full modern orthography. Wikipedia article is Ktiv hasar niqqud, but I'm not sure how helpful it is... AnonMoos (talk) 06:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Construct- and absolute-state

These terms should be explained (or have links to explanations). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.79.118 (talk) 22:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I linked to the Construct state article (but not sure how much good it will do people who don't have any direct experience with relevant languages)... AnonMoos (talk) 03:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

use of the article "a" with a plural noun

This comment is based upon this ("02:18, 31 July 2015‎") version of the article.

In the Hebrew sub-section of (the "History" section of) the article, the sentence that begins "Around the 9th century CE, it was decided [...]" ends with a part that says -- with one (parenthesized) portion elided --

[...] so a supplemental vowel pointing systems (niqqud) [...] joined matres lectionis as part of the Hebrew writing system.

I think this should be changed. [IMHO], either [a] the plural noun "systems" should be changed to the singular, by deleting the suffix "s", or else -- if for some reason it must remain plural -- then [b] the article "a" does not belong in that phrase.

Personally I think that it is likely that the original intent was: to say [or, write] that only one "vowel pointing system" -- (namely, niqqud) -- "joined matres lectionis [...]". (See [a].) (right?)

I plan to update the article accordingly. (But this explanation might not fit in an edit comment). --Mike Schwartz (talk) 21:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Either the singular or plural could be used (there were multiple variant systems), but there was certainly an inconsistency. AnonMoos (talk) 08:48, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2019

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. After extended time for discussion, there is insufficient consensus to move the page. Note that I am counting AnonMoos as not supporting a move, and giving little weight to the IP !vote due to its short period of activity on Wikipedia. bd2412 T 17:47, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Mater lectionis → Matres lectionis – The article is about signs, not a sign, so it should be in plural. Qbli2mHd (talk) 16:24, 10 June 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 (talk) 10:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink) requested by Qbli2mHd. Steel1943 (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:SINGULAR. Steel1943 (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
• I really don't see any need for this move. It often occurs in the singular form in English philological usage... AnonMoos (talk) 10:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support move. This isn't an article about "matres lectionis" in general, in which case WP:SINGULAR indeed would apply and the article should be called "mater lectionis". This is about a specific set of "matres lectionis", so the plural should be used. Debresser (talk) 10:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  It kind of is an article about matres lectionis in general, considering that the concept is only relevant to languages that were originally written with consonantal alphabets... AnonMoos (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

  ...Is this a claim that WP:COMMONNAME should supersede WP:SINGULAR? And if so, can the WP:COMMONNAME claim be backed up somehow (references, etc.)? Steel1943 (talk) 16:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose this move 2601:541:4500:1760:A89A:65D6:E57B:36CE (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:46, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"waw ו " , not "vav"? Why?

Why is the Hebrew letter "ו" referred to in the article with name of its Aramaic analog, "waw", instead of "vav"? I have seen this a number times in books and articles (usually when written by non-Jewish nor non-native Hebrew learners) and yet have never heard it referred to as "waw" by ethnic Sephardic nor Ashkenazi speakers. Jyg (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Both spellings are correct. In the German-Ashkenazi dialect of Hebrew, there is no "w" sound, as in the English word "water." In German, all words written with a "w" are pronounced as the English "v" (as in "waser", "Was ist das?", "Warum bist do so gut?"). The Hebrew spoken by native Ashkenazi Jews is the same as the old German --- with no English-sounding "w". However, in the Hebrew language, which is akin to all Semitic languages, the Hebrew letter (ו) is pronounced as the Arabic letter "waw", equivalent to the English "w".Davidbena (talk) 03:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Jyg -- The "v" pronunciation is post-Biblical (belonging to the A.D. period), and so would be anachronistic for most of the time period covered by this article. (It's also harder to see how "v" comes to write "u" and "o" vowels than how "w" does...) Yemeni Jews traditionally use a [w] pronunciation for the letter. AnonMoos (talk) 22:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Are mater lectionis phenomena?

First, I'm not a linguist, just a reader. In the article overview section the usage of mater lectionis is referred to as a phenomenon. This feels like not the best choice of word to me, as it is evocative of unusual and notable events without a known/understood cause. But since the article is about the history, development, and usage of mater lectionis, it argues against labeling the usage a phenomenon. I'm open to the possibility that "phenomenon" is used differently in linguistics than in ordinary English. However, if it isn't, I would propose substituting "usage" or "this interesting development". MxBuster (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Phenomenon is an extremely vague word in English, except maybe in a show-biz or sporting context... AnonMoos (talk) 22:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)