Talk:Mathias Brugman/Archive 1

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Buenas noches! por lo que veo tienen un revulu con la informacion de mi tatara abuelo ya que mi familia nunca a querido soltar informacion al publico sobre el. Me uni en contra de los deseos de los viejos de la familia para eliminar todos los errores de este articulos ya que tengo en mi propia casa articulos y documentos oficiales de mi tatara abuelo, pasado de familiares para un proyecto que estoy haciendo sobre el. Espero ir poco a poco poniendo las cosas verdaderas y eliminando los embustes y o cosas que otros han postiado en la discussion y en la informacion en si de wikipedia. Por si se preguntan quien soy mi nombre es Irvic Rodriguez Bruckman. Soy uno de los ultimos tatara nietos de el Hon Mathias Brugman o Bruckman. Si se preguntan como es que estoy ligado a el, pues vengo de la sepa que se mudo a San Juan de mayaguez una ves que perdimos la Hacienda Buena Vista despues del Grito de Lares y soy la 5ta y ultima generacion ligada a el por apellido y sangre.

Tratare de postiar la informacion que mas pueda con mi tiempo libre aqui antes que se ponga en la pagina principal. por favor solo mencionenme con algun familiar directo y si me mencionan afuera por favor haganlo con discrecion ya que nadie de la familia quieren que mi tatara abuelo sea conocido y no me quiero meter en problemas familiares, ya que todavia al son de hoy mis familiares mas viejos tiene bochorno y sufren tambien de la persecusion politica que tuvieron en los ultimos años del reino español.

y si los supuestos familiares que han postiado antes de verdad son familiares mios entonces sabran que digo 100% la verdad.

Voy a sacar informacion poco a poco y pues como dicen en los estados: bear with me on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vikz27 (talk • contribs) 04:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Bienvinido a Wikipedia Vikz27, te dire como funcionan las cosas aqui para que no tengas problemas en tu posteos. Te lo dire en ingles porque es mas facil para mi.

The article on Mathias was written based on reliable verifiable sources which are cited, such is a requirement of Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia does not permit "original research". Which means that any information that is added and that does not provide a "source", which can be verified by any other editor, will be removed. This is a policy which is strictly enforced because anyone can claim to have information on a subject and post things that are not true.

We are also very strict in removing additions that are considered POV (punto de vista) or hearsay. I am more then willing to be of help, if you have any questions you are more then welcomed to go to my "talk page". Tony the Marine (talk) 05:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hello i'm a Brugman , i live in Holland , My name is Stephanie and recording to my family tree investigated by pro's i'm family of Mathias Brugman . do you know the family tree of Mathias brugman until know ?

Stephanie from Holland, Here is a start: Brugman family. Cheers! Tony the Marine 06:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Mi Hermano (MY brother), You are right, Brugman did not surrender. I don't know if a Spanish captain shot him point blank, but I do know that (as they say in Puerto Rico) "un Chota" (Squealer) called Francisco Qiñones committed (in my opinion) the cowardly act of telling the Spanish authorities where he was hiding. Tony the Marine 04:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Hey, what do you all think about changing Bruckman for Brugman or aka Brugman. As long as I know, the correct name, or at least the name all of his descendants have is Bruckman. Also, when I was in high school, I had to make a paper on my ancestry and family tree, and I found the actual registry of the Bruckmans when they arrivved to Puerto Rico in the Archivo de Puerto Rico. It said "Matías Bruckman" of New Orleans. If anyone else agrees, I would like to change it. Thanxs.Solcita 16:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Solcita, Me da mucho gusto que estes con nosotros aqui en Wikipedia. Welcome to the club (smile). In regard to Mathias, all verifiable soruces indicate that his surname indeed was "Brugman" even though he has been referred to as "Bruckman". I had the same questions when I wrote the article, but the arrived to the final conclusion after consulting with Puerto Rican historian Ursula Acosta, but tell you what, I'll create a redirect page which will lead anyone looking up Mathias Bruckman to Mathias Brugman (It was already done). Que pases un buen dia. Tony the Marine 17:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

- Hey Tony thanks for the information, but sorry to tell you that I may have more knowledge about this subject because Mathias Bruckman was my grandpa's grandfather (or something like that, it is hard to follow registries after a while, moreover because it seems my grandfather was not baptised {I already had the suspicion we where a bit Jew, he he, but this article confirmed that}, and Utuado's Registry burned I think in early 20th century, but not sure. Maybe Ms. Acosta has more historical knowledge credentials, but the Bruckman family here in the Island, even though is big, is just one and the name is Bruckman. My mom's Bruckman counsins (the ones who still keep the family name) are Bruckman, not Brugman. The only other proof may be to check the Archivo General, or the Mormons Archives (in Cupey, I think). But I remember that the book "History of Puerto Rico" by Francisco Scarano, spelled it Bruckman. That book I think is still being used in high school and universities here in the Island. Sorry if I may sound passionate, but hey, not everyday one of your ancestors is on an encyclopedia :-).Solcita 20:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
Solicita, tell you what. You make sure about the verification on the true surname. Make sure without a doubt and I'll make the change myself. You must remember that sometimes with the passing of years the spelling of a surname changes. You see changing a page has to be done carefully so that the editing history is not lost. Tony the Marine 22:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Here is the answer to your question: Sacramental Records of the Roman Catholic Church of the Achdiocese of New Orleans; Volume 10, 1810-1812 as I have stated before, I cannot doubt the findings of a reputed historian such as Mrs. Acosta and during the years it is common for the spellings of surnames to change. That is why you have Rodrigues' and Rodriguez's. This is especially true with non-Hispanic surnames in Hispanic countries where the surnames where changed to sound more "Hispanic" making it easier for the Spanish athorities to pronounce them. Tony the Marine 03:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the info, even though it’s weird they appear baptized (up until my mother’s generation, it seems the family did not practiced this custom often). Anyway, one day, I’ll do some investigation on the family tree… maybe when I retire. And by the way, the family tree you recommended Stephanie is not very accurate. It is not in sync with Spanish and Latin American custom of naming, since we use our father’s family name first, then our mother’s; and this web-page has it the other way around. And the information is very incomplete and inaccurate, especially with the latter generations. I even tried to e-mail the person who made the website and the communication with her was very awkward. (My aunt did investigate her, since they both live in NYC, and she is not even related to us). I recommend Stephanie that if she wants to find more about them (at least in Puerto Rico and the ones who have emigrated from the Island), she will have to look for them as Bruckman. I think the most accurate information is in the Archivo General here in Puerto Rico, and the Church of the Latter Saints Archives (Mormons) in Río Piedras. That is, if anyone wants to track the family here the Island.

February 10, 2008 I am delighted to find this discussion page regarding my great great great grandfather. Although my surname is not Brugman, I am a direct descendant of Matias Brugman Duliebre. I am also delighted to see that documentation that I have acquired, as well as the web site that so many of our relatives have contributed to, is referred to on this discussion. Thank you.

Tony, I do not recall being in touch with your or aunt but it is difficult for me to research my e-mail archives with the little information you have provided above. I apologize if our correspondence was awkward, again, I would need additional information to look up our correspondences.

I am updating the web site referred to on this talk page and I hope to have the revised site live by then end of this month. The inversion of surnames on the current web site is due to a 20 year old genealogy program that could not handle Father's Surname Mother's Maiden Surname input. Family Tree Maker is able to do so. The updated info will consist of the surnames listed in the Spanish custom.

I do not, nor will I ever, post on the web site any vital information regarding the current generations. It is not wise considering all of the privacy violations we face in the world today.

Stephanie, the offline database contains information regarding additional generations. Some incomplete because the information on current generations is not public information and I can only acquire this information from relatives who share their info with me. I am willing to share this information with anyone who can prove their genealogical line with information not on the Familia web site.

Solicita, I have come across legal documents with the Brugman surname spelled Bruckman, Brookman and Bruigman. However, the earliest legal document that I have come across so far are the baptismal records for Mathias (1811) and his sister, Clara Maria (1812), at the St. Louis Cathedral of the Archdiocese of New Orleans, have the named spelled as BRUGMAN. Other spellings of the surname could have occurred from misinterpretation of the pronunciation of the surname, sloppy handwriting, or illiteracy. The published sacramental records of the Cathedral for 1814 list the surname as BRUGMAR for Mathias' & Clara's younger brother, Pedro Henrrique. Errors happen all the time.

I cannot recall if I came across the registry documentation at AGPR. I will search my files, you've raised my curiosity. BTW, that was a cool find. I love the AGPR. The 1846 Census for Barrio Naranjales, Las Marias, Puerto Rico which can be found at the Archivos Historico de Mayaguez in Mayaguez, lists the Surname at BRUGMAN.

From these documents we find that in reference to Mathias' father, as well as Mathias, the surname was most often spelled BRUGMAN.

Thank you all for keeping this part of history alive!

--Julia Sosa (talk) 18:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Julia, you can write to me at- [email protected] -just remember to write "Mathias" in subject. Take care. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hi Stepanie. My name is Zacarias, and Mathias BRUGMAN is my grandmothers great grandfather. And I believe that when he was captured. he was tied to a horse from his beard and dragged until he died.. thats what i have heard from my family anyways. and that would make more sense as to "squealer" then just being shot.

but yeah please if you like respond I would like to talk with long lost relatives..

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