Talk:Matzoon

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Changing the name

Google:

• matsoun-6.360.000
• matsoni-91.100

I think it should be changed to Matsoun.--46.241.179.18 (talk) 08:01, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Its in your Armenian google --Obitauri (talk) 13:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOR

This article was written: It supposedly originated from ancient Georgia and later propagated to many neighbor countries, e.g. Armenia. With reference to the book Goldstein, Darra: The Georgian Feast.
In this book is not written about it. This is original research!!!!! On the referenced page is written about milk:
Page 36

Yogurt (matsoni), pungent cheese, and immature wine (machari) often serve as counterpoints to ground walnuts; vinegar or fruit juices and fruit leathers likewise lend balance. But even though ground walnuts find their way into many dishes, the flavors of Georgian food are not redundant

Page 51

YOGURT (matsoni). Georgian yogurt is some of the best in the world, whether made from cow's milk or the even richer water buffalo milk. Matsoni is never gelatinous but always shimmery, with a pleasant tartness.

Reference added Zolokin, forever blocked in the Russian section. I deleted the original study--Lori-m (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Why are there Wikipedia entries for both "matsun" and "matsoni"? They appear to be the same thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rks22 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Matsoni is Georgian food not Armenian. Armenians just took it to their region and everyone knows its Georgian Obitauri (talk) 11:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

See Vandalism. In this article there are sources. You delete the word not only from the article, but from the quote of source--Lori-m (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I see some fake Armenian sources. You armenians want to steal everything and say its yours. I wont let you do this! Get off this fake sources! --Obitauri (talk) 15:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Did you forget about the rules of ethical behavior (see Wikipedia:Civility)? In this article there is no Armenian source! You're breaking the rules. Your actions is vandalism. In English, the drink is called Matzoon, not Matsoni--Lori-m (talk) 23:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The name is what the reliable sources say it is, which you deleted without any excuse because they do not suit you. Moreover, the only source related to Matsoni and Armenia, which you cited, says that the product is "used in Armenia", not that is necessarily Armenian or of Armenian origin.--Permaveli (talk) 23:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

What are the sources speak of Georgian origin? What are the sources said Matsoni and not Matzoon?--Lori-m (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The ones that you keep deleting. Also, if you find sources to the contrary, that does not give you the right to delete previous sources. You will have to reconcile the two, instead of crying vandalism.--Permaveli (talk) 00:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not cry, I'm telling the truth--Lori-m (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Matzoon or Matsoni

In English, the drink is called Matzoon, not Matsoni. See Google Books and scholar.google. Also in contrast to the Matsoni, the word Matzoon use all the encyclopedia and dictionaries.

• Matzoon
  • • Google.books - 9480 references.
• Matsoni
  • • Google.books -2 970 references. However, almost all the references do not relate to the drink

The name "matzoon" was changed to "matsoni" contrary to logic and rules of Wikipedia. I return to the previous more correct title--Lori-m (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

source

• Anya Von Bremzen, John C. Welchman. Please to the Table: The Russian Cookbook. - is not IRS. This is not a book of science, it is a book of recipes
• Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia - Darra Goldstein does not say that the drink of Georgian origin. This conclusion is the original study
• David Shrayer-Petrov. Jonah and Sarah: Jewish Stories of Russia and America- is not IRS. It's also not a book of science, it is a book of stories and memories. In addition vney also does not say that a drink of Georgian origin.
• Joseph A. Kurmann, Jeremija Lj Rašić, Manfred Kroger: Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products - In this book, no mention of the Georgian origin of the drink, but it speaks directly about Armenian origin ( See reference [1]). In the book is written: Of Armenian origin. But you ignore the source of the article and delete the word "Armenian", and in the quotation from the book replaces the word "Armenian" in the "Georgian". This is vanadlizm! ( See Wikipedia:Vandalism)
• Columbia Encyclopedia // fermented milk // The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Columbia University Press. - In this book, the word "Georgian" is missing. It used the phrase "Armenian matzoon"
  

You have perfected the war edits. You're breaking a few rules wikipedia (WP:EW, WP:IRS, WP:CON).--Lori-m (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

CANT YOU SEE THIS SOURCE AND STOP TAKING HERE FAKE SOURCES EVERYONE KNOWS MATSONI IS GEORGIAN! http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1740-0929.2006.00409.x/abstract — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obitauri (talk • contribs) 20:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It does not say that the Georgian origin. There is no mention of the origin--Lori-m (talk) 08:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Clean your eyes and READ IN REFERENCES ONE SOURCE WHAT SAYS! --Obitauri (talk) 11:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

^ Kenji Uchidai, Tadasu Urashima, Nino Chaniashvili, Ikiti Arai, Hidemasa Motoshima. Major microbiota of lactic acid bacteria from Matsoni, a traditional Georgian fermented milk. Animal Science Journal, Vol. 78, Issue 1, pp. 85-91, February 2007

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1740-0929.2006.00409.x/abstract

Check references! --Obitauri (talk) 11:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

^ Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 34 --Obitauri (talk) 11:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I see everything. In the source is no mention of the Georgian origin of the drink. The word "traditional" doesn't say anything about the of origin. In contrast to this source we have in the article references that speak directly about the origin.--Lori-m (talk) 18:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It snot ARMENIAN STOP TRYING TO STEAL IT! It is Georgian! Bringing sources From USA dont prooves its Armenian... Why? Cause you armenians went in Usa and brought Matsoni here, Americans thought it was Armenian and wrote in their book its Armenian. I dont care and no one cares, YOU KNOW ITS NOT ARMENIAN AND ITS GEORGIAN YOU JUST WANT TO STEAL IT I WOTN LET YOU DO THIS! --Obitauri (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Here you go: "Lawrence Eldred Kirk // Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, 1948 , p.12 (41)

Matsoni, originating in Georgia. A lactobacillus (L. mazun) , a streptococcus, a spore-producing bacillus and a sugar- fermenting yeast are responsible for the fermentation of this product" Enough? --Obitauri (talk) 13:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51&dq=%22Matsoni%22&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=NbHBUYC0FYv0sgbQmYHoDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Matsoni%22&f=false

^ Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 51

See what is here: "Yogurt (matsoni). Georgian yogurt is some of the best in the world..." and continue reading. It completely says its Georgian and not Armenian, you can see other sources too just dont choose ones which say Armenian origin which is not true --Obitauri (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

First of all I checked and you was removing sources which said Matsoni was Georgian, Then replacing with sources which says its Armenian and crying vandalism then. First of all discuss which source is true, then edit them. --Lori-m (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obitauri (talk • contribs) 13:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Matsoni, originating in Georgia. A lactobacillus (L. mazun) , a streptococcus, a spore-producing bacillus and a sugar- fermenting yeast are responsible for the fermentation of this product" Enough? — What? You're a liar. I added this source. It says, "Matzoon or mazun, originating in Armenia". See [2].

See what is here: "Yogurt (matsoni). Georgian yogurt is some of the best in the world.." — Show me where it says "Georgian origin"? There's no such. This original study. I have already spoken on the talk page. A hundred times I will not repeat. Call the administrator. I will not let you engage in vandalism--Lori-m (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

you are great vandal and why I am liar first time you REMOVED several SOURCES saying GEORGIAN ORIGIN! HERE YOU GO AND CHECK:

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 51

http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51&dq=%22Matsoni%22&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=NbHBUYC0FYv0sgbQmYHoDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Matsoni%22&f=false

THIS Source says GEORGIAN. I am not breaking any rule, here is source --Obitauri (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

In your source is no mention of Georgian origin. "Georgian yogurt" does not mean that the drink of Georgian origin. As well as the "Armenian cognac" does not mean that cognac is of Armenian descent--Lori-m (talk) 07:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Source says Georgian Origin which later was removed by other before

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 51

http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51&dq=%22Matsoni%22&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=NbHBUYC0FYv0sgbQmYHoDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Matsoni%22&f=false

This totally shows its Georgian. "University of California Press", this is one of most reliable sources. We need to discuss both sources, which says Armenian and other which says Georgian as of this article became battlefield of editing... We need to check both sources... But before we must not say anything about origin in article cause we found 2 sources one says other, 2nd other thing we need to remove origin from article --Obitauri (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC) --Obitauri (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

In your source is no mention of Georgian origin. "Georgian yogurt" does not mean that the drink of Georgian origin. As well as the "Armenian cognac" does not mean that cognac is of Armenian descent--Lori-m (talk) 07:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This source exactly says it... Georgian Yogurt, why to say Georgian origin yogurt which is non-grammar correct form? Georgian Yogurt means its Georgian --Obitauri (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

That could be very problematic. If a source talks about American pizza, then we cannot conclude that pizza originated in America. That would be wp:original research of the worst kind. - DVdm (talk) 13:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This I said to him. However, he does not want to listen to and understand it--Lori-m (talk) 13:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I know that you said that, but up to now I couldn't verify the source. Now I can with this: http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51. Indeed there is nothing in that supports the assertion.

Obitauri, do you have source that explicitly supports your assertion? - DVdm (talk) 13:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Permaveli also tried to remove Armenian origin and add the Georgian. But then went to set up another article on the same drink (see Matsoni). It is also a violation. Matsoni this is Matzoon. In English, they say "Matzoon", in Russian "Matsoni".--Lori-m (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

We have two sources who say the Armenian origin of the drink. About Georgian origin does not say a single source. The fact that you say it's original research.--Lori-m (talk) 13:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Obitauri, you're going to answer the question of DVdm [3]? If you do not bring a higher burden of proof then I'll edit the article--Lori-m (talk) 09:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead. That source does not back the statement, not even close. Further reverts by Obitauri can be immediately undone per wp:unsourced and standard user warnings {{uw-unsourced}} can be put on their talk page. Without another source there is nothing to discuss here. - DVdm (talk) 14:14, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks. What do you think about the article "Matsoni"? "Matzoon" and "Matsoni" is the same thing. It is also a violation. In English, they say "Matzoon", in Russian "Matsoni". Matsoni this is Matzoon--Lori-m (talk) 10:25, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. I was about to create the Matzoon article, redirecting to Matsoni, but I see that user Permaveli was there first. - DVdm (talk) 11:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You dont understand. Look sources. This article and the article "Matsoni" the same thing. It is necessary to remove the article, "Matsoni" and do a redirect to this article.--Lori-m (talk) 13:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring

Note - I have reported the user who made the most recent edits at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. - DVdm (talk) 20:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Matsoni and Matzoon is not same

Sources say: Matzoon or mazun, originating in Armenia. A lactobacillus (L. mazun) , a streptococcus, a spore-producing bacillus and a sugar- fermenting yeast are responsible for the fermentation of this product

Here is no Matzoon, Mazun OR MATSONI.

Joseph A. Kurmann, Jeremija Lj Rašić, Manfred Kroger: Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products, p. 212. Springer, 1992. ISBN 978-0-442-00869-7. 

Also Matsoni is not made like this: MATZOON, mat-soon', a milk food used in Armenia; prepared by exposing milk in open vessels to a heat of 90°F., and when coagulation takes place the curd is broken up by a churning process and salt is added

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p.

Anya Von Bremzen, John C. Welchman. Please to the Table: The Russian Cookbook. New York, NY: Workman Publishing 1990, p. 349

Matsoni and Matzoon is not same thing --Obitauri (talk) 10:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

"Matzoon" and "Matsoni" is the name of one drink. You know it. See Joseph A. Kurmann, Jeremija Lj Rašić, Manfred Kroger //Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products p. 212. Springer, 1992.[4] (MATZOON (En); mazun (Fr, De); matsun, matsoni, maconi.)--Lori-m (talk) 18:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You said Matzoon is a drink, Matsoni is not drink so are they same --Obitauri (talk) 08:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Matzoon and Matsoni are Armenian and Georgian names, corespondigly, for the same milk produkt. And for the sake of clarity it's not a drink. It's served on plates not in glass. Stop miningless arguing--Hayordi (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Matsoni is Georgian product and stop writing it comes from Armenia !!!! MGTG (talk) 07:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

bacteria species

The cited paper lists the same organisms as in Bulgarian yogurt, but elsewhere I find a completely different pair: Lactobacillis lactis subsp. cremoris and Acetobacter orientalis.

• Cultures for Health
• Running Bug Farm

Oddly, another wiki that claims to be sourced from here also lists the cremoris/Acetobacter combination instead:

• The Full Wiki

Not R (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Georgian Origin and not "Matzoon"

Matsoni is traditional Georgian food. Some wrong sources, saying its Armenian originated but here are sources supporting Georgian origin: Matsoni (Georgian) 2nd 3rd

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 34

Someone said that they dont say Georgian Origin but they say Georgian Matsoni, this does not needs to say Origin. They say Georgian. This is enough to get that it means its from Georgia. As here is 2 side and one says Georgian, 2nd Armenian, we must not write origin so people will decide themselves from reading sources, which is true. --Obitauri (talk) 17:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A source that talks about "French cheese" does not support the assertion that cheese originated in France.

A source that talks about "Georgian Matsoni" does not support the assertion that Matsoni originated in Georgia.

None of your sources provide evidence that Matsoni originated in Georgia.

This was explained to you about 15 times now on this talk page and on your user talk page. You have been blocked 3 times for this. Are you aiming at a 4th block?

DVdm (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you terroring me with block? I do not care. I am starting discussion here AND read source which says GEORGIAN MATSONI, DOES IT NEEDS TO SAY MATSONI GEORGIAN ORIGIN OR WHAT? I can bring many Georgian source talking about Matsoni Georgian origin soon so this article will not stay as Armenian bias wants and also I will not get blocked --Obitauri (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Matsoni comes from Georgia!! MGTG (talk) 07:32, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Matzoon be merged into Yogurt. I think that the content in the Matzoon article can easily be explained in the context of Yogurt, and the Yogurt article is of a reasonable size that the merging of the small Matzoon article will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Note the existing reference to "madzoon" within the Yogurt article. One is essentially a national or regional subset of the other, and madzoon or matzoon are generally terms used among ethnic communities throughout the world to refer to yogurt in general. Discussion of the Caucasus varieties could easily be done within the context of yogurt and as a sub within the Yogurt article. There is otherwise considerable duplication and overlap between the articles. Xenophonix (talk) 22:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Support, for all the reasons stated, and more—see the history. - DVdm (talk) 07:49, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Unacceptable Proposing to turkify the product is the solution? Matzoon is a distinct milk product documented in numerous medieval manuscrips sourced in the article. Or are you suggesting that all milk products should be merged into the Yoghurt article Hayordi (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Support Multiple reliable sources indicate that matzoon and matsoni are simply alternate names for a kind of yogurt.[5][6][7] There may be minor differences (perhaps in country A, more sheep milk is used and in country B, it is more sour), but they appear to be part of the yogurt family. That the Armenian name was used in medieval manuscripts is irrelevant. To the extent that there are any systematic differences between yogurt as found in Turkey, Greece, Persia, etc., and matzoon found in Armenia and the Caucasus, they can be discussed in the yogurt article itself. PS Please avoid uncivil and ad hominem arguments. --Macrakis (talk) 18:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Needs more thorough assessment As yogurt became a general term in English for milk products fermented with mesophile bacteria, matzoon/matsoni can be merged in it. However, it can be kept separate if there is sufficient amount of content justifying it. Currently it's too short, but potentially may be longer. Other similar examples are Qatiq, Bulgarian yogurt, Stewler and Ryazhenka (the latter integrated into Baked milk article). Analogously, Skyr is kept separately from Strained yogurt. The Russian and Japanese articles for matzoon are longer and may contain some useful information. The Russian one also describes e.g. the strained version kamats matzoon. The Japanese one tells how it came to Japan where it is known as Kaspian sea yogurt. This needs to be checked first. --Off-shell (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the other articles. The Bulgarian yogurt article seems like an equally good candidate for merging into yogurt -- the section "What distinguishes Bulgarian yogurt" gives no compelling reasoning, and has no sources. The "origin" section says it is made "using a unique variety of micro-organism called Lactobacillus bulgaricus" -- but all yogurt uses L. bulgaricus and the cited article is clearly of poor quality.

There used to be an article called "Greek yogurt", but it was renamed strained yogurt some time ago (though "Greek yogurt" has bizarrely come to mean "strained yogurt", most yogurt in Greece is not strained, and most strained yogurt is not from Greece...), so there is no longer the argument from "fairness".

There is no question that there is a range of properties found in yogurt -- from pourable to very stiff, from mild to very acid -- and there are probably differences in the microorganism populations. Even so, it doesn't seem useful to have multiple articles. --Macrakis (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The existence of separate articles is justified if their combination would make up a too long and thus unreadable article. I just ran the Japanese article through Google translator to have an idea of the content. It provides some amount of additional information with many references. --Off-shell (talk) 21:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure why you're bringing up the Japanese Caspian Sea Yogurt. We were discussing this page, Matzoon, and I mentioned Bulgarian yogurt. In each of those, I only see a handful of sentences which would have to be added to the general yogurt article. Perhaps at some point there will be (say) detailed gastronomic, microbiological, and cultural information on each of these, at which point a special article with a {{main|...}} link would be appropriate, but we are far from that. Also, the categories seem to overlap. If we consider that the defining characteristic of Matzoon is that it is pourable, well, there are pourable yogurts made elsewhere as well.... --Macrakis (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I brought up the Japanese Caspian Sea Yogurt, because it is Matzoon. This page in Japanese Wikipedia is linked to Matzoon. In a former version of the Matzoon article, it was mentioned that it is called Caspian Sea Yogurt in Japan, but someone deleted it recently for unclear reasons. The sentence is still available in the Yogurt article: "Matsoni is also popular in Japan under the name Caspian Sea Yogurt". The Matzoon cultures were brought to Japan and it is studied in detail there because of its suggested health benefits. The information from the Japanese article can be evaluated and may be put in the Matzoon article here. Then it may become sufficiently long, such that a merger may become unjustified. --Off-shell (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. As others have noted, matzoon is simply the Armenian word for "yogurt". That's how it's commonly used in English. Unless there is enough content to warrant a WP:SPLIT, well, the split is unwarranted. We need to remember to separate topics from titles. There should be only one article per topic; though that topic may have multiple titles (the actual title of the article, and all the redirects to it). --В²C ☎ 20:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Matzoon and yoghurt are two different products and both exist in Armenia under different respective names. Should all Fermented milk products be included in yoghurt article, most of them are either short or don't even have a content at all?--Hayordi (talk) 22:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Unacceptable This is a concrete milk product, different from yogurt. People claiming it's only the Armenian word for Yogurt are not aware with the subject. There are many sorts of Yogurts in Armenia, and not all of them are matzoon and are called matzoon. --Хаченци (talk) 00:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• sigh IF the two articles were not merged, would it be appropriate to mention, in both articles, that there is a dispute whether madzoon is a distinct product from yoghurt? I do not see use of the term "yaghurt" as "turkification." It is the word most commonly used in the US and in most countries, regardless of variety. I can say that "madzoon" is, in fact, commonly used in Armenian to refer to a food product which, when switching to English, is called "yoghurt." Yev grnam essel vor mer andanikè, yev urish hy andanikner, zhisht asiga genen. Madzoon and yoghurt are the same product. Xenophonix (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The term yoghurt is turkish, while matzoon is distincly Armenian. It's etymology, history is well documented in Armenian medieval manuscripts starting from 11th century(Grigor Magistros). Armenians where introduced to yogurt after the mongolo-turkish invasion of Armenian Highland, it's subsequent devision and later incorporation of Western Armenia into Ottoman Empire in 16th century. This products have separate origins, separate history. That's the definition of distinction itself. Don't you agree? Hayordi (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose per Hayordi. Makes a good argument for distinct and separate histories. -Kai445 (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

if the bacterial cultures are the same they can be merged else they are not identical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.200.96.190 (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose; Unacceptable Matzoon and yogurt are two different things, there are multiple articles for different kinds of milks, breads, fruits, etc. that are not being condensed into one, this one should not be as well. --Hyrudagon (talk) 19:30, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Origins of Matsoni

As I see above this issue had controversy here and mentioned sources supported both sides but now I am providing upper level source that is National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti, here is a link of the patent with description that Matsoni is a traditional Georgian fermented milk product ► http://www.sakpatenti.org.ge/index.php?lang_id=geo&sec_id=325#4 (web-site's English version is under construction but you can easily translate it by Google translate, it will show the text as ""Sour" Georgian traditional fermented milk product"). It was registered by Ministry of Agriculture in 06.09.2011 and approved in 24.01.2012. So by 100% now we can say that this product is definitely from Georgia. Patent also provides additional information that in other parts of Georgia Matsoni also know as Tsvela (in Kiziki area, part of Kakheti), Martsven (in Svaneti), and Tsola (in Saingilo)--g. balaxaZe★ 19:43, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The product is traditional for both countries. It might be even impossible to determine who was the first. If it is possible, this must be a dedicated study done by professional historians / archeologists / ethnographers etc. who could really trace the origin and spread of this product through time. I believe, neither a patent bureau, nor a Ministry, nor the United Nations is a reliable source on this if they don't point to a proper academic study. It looks like, the Armenian origin is supported by medieval literature and language studies. If there is a similar level study supporting Georgian origin, please quote it. --Off-shell (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

In Armenian literature you can find many things that are far from truth for example that Shota Rustaveli is Armenain author and etc. This is a patent and official recognition it's not a book or an article in newspaper, National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti is weighty institution and it is recognized and respected in the world so when they approved patent this means that it is definitely Georgian because patent could be impossible if it comes from other country.--g. balaxaZe★ 20:11, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

We can simply say that Matsoni and making of Matsoni is an intellectual property of Georgian people and by accepting this in National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti it is automatically accepted in the World Intellectual Property Organization and European Intellectual Property Office. These are so weighty sources and argument that one can't jump over them by medieval fairy tales. --g. balaxaZe★ 20:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Medieval sources are primary sources. They just tell you that this product was known in Armenia at that time. Language studies may derive an etymological connection to other words in the language. This is all I learned from this article. I don't know how one prooves that this product originated in Armenia or in Georgia. If the Georgian center has a scientific proof that the product originated in Georgia they must have published it somewhere. In principle, they can simply register the "Matsoni" trademark, while the Armenians may register the "Matzoon" trademark. --Off-shell (talk) 13:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

It is not only about trademark there is a description how it is made, so we should divide Georgian making of Matsoni and Armenian one but Armenian side has no official statement like Georgia.--g. balaxaZe★ 22:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

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New Sources about Matsoni

I mentioned it before, and now I will reference some other sources indicating that Matsoni if not primarily Georgian at least belongs to both countries. Here in the list National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti provides Geographical Indications registered in Georgia where we can easily find Matsoni:

“ MATSONI is a Georgian traditional cultured milk product, which is prepared from the milk of cow, buffalo, goat, sometimes sheep or their mixing. The cultured milk fermentation gives the product named “Dedo”, which consists of bacterial strains, existed in the local area of Georgia.

MATSONI has a white color, equally dense condensed structure (permissible a few lactoserum inside). It has a specific, pleasant cultured milk taste and aroma.

Acidity of cow, goat and sheep MATSONI is 80-105°T, but of buffalo is 120-150°T.

GEOGRAPHICAL AREA OF PRODUCTION:

Obtaining, processing and fermentation of milk for MATSONI production takes place in the whole territory of Georgia. Fermentation for obtaining of cultured milk product occurs by the “Dedo” consisting of local bacteria strains.

MILK CONTENTS:

The milk acidity for producing MATSONI must not be more than 19°T, dense – no less than 1.030, but in the case, when the product is prepared from buffalo milk, the acidity must not be more than 25°T, and dense – no less than 1.035.

Milk condensation takes place at 41-45°C temperature. Condensation occurs with the “Dedo” of cultured milk bacteria consisting of: Thermopile and Mezophilic Streptococcus and Thermopile rods of MATSONI. The 1-2 days

MATSONI can be used as the “Dedo”.

Condensation takes place at 41-45°C, during 3-4 hours. After obtaining the preferable acidity (70-75°T), MATSONI must be moved for cooling for 4-6°C and kept during 12-20 hours, after which it is ready for realization.

SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS FOR THE END PRODUCT LABELING:

The name MATSONI on its packaging, as well as on its accompanying documents and advertising materials in foreign languages is placed in the following way:

By Latin font: MATSONI By Russian font: МАЦОНИ

”

• Applicant of patent was - Ministry of Agriculture of Georgia, 6, Marshal Gelovani ave., 0159, Tbilisi (GE).
• Date of Registration: 2012.01.24 --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 21:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

This list provides official documentation for such Georgian products like - Chacha, Churchkhela, Sulguni, Guda, Qvevri, Khvanchkara, Mukuzani, Kindzmarauli, Borjomi and etc..

In addition, there are not only Georgian official sources but also a third party European Patent Office, which also provides links to patents for Matsoni[8]. The only source there about Matzoon was Aloe Matzoon[9] which proves once again that Matsoni is a more Georgian product, or at least can be called Georgian-Armenian.--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 21:40, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to discredit the name "Matsoni". But when the name and origin of the dish are both not Georgian, there exists no reason for that name to be featured as a bold, primary name. It acts subordinately to the original, Armenian designation. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, the "National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia" is very much NOT an objective source. Of course the Georgian government will claim the dish as its own. Not a reliable source, I'm afraid. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

BaxçeyêReş firstly, you say the name and origin of the dish are both not Georgian but I have already provided sources, which claim otherwise, at least what you say is disputed and not a solid fact. Secondly, there exists a reason WP:COMMONNAME, and as I said (twice[10][11]) per Google NGRAM viewer both names are common in English and can be used in bold. Regarding your comment, "Of course the Georgian government will claim the dish as its own" this shows your attitude and pro-Armenian bias, that is not a fact but just your emotion. The Georgian government doesn't claim Lavash or Dolma but the product which is widely used in the country and definitely has local historical roots. BTW since it is your edit that causes dispute, I will revert to stable version and please stop pushing it. Regards. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 22:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh BaxçeyêReş and almost forgot to mention, do not jump over thid-party source European Patent Office which clearly says starter (dedo) for "matsoni", wholesome and innocuous Georgian fermented milk product--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 22:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Wonderful! Now you have a third-party source to back up the existence of Matsoni. But it still does not change the fact that Matsoni is a VARIATION of Matzoon. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 22:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Giorgi Balakhadze If wanting to preserve cultural heritage in the face of Georgian and Azerbaijani revisionism means having a "pro-Armenian bias", then so be it. After all, my own Kurdish culture is being appropriated by the Turkish state.

Tacos are consumed in the United States as much as they are in Central/South American countries. Does that make it an American dish? No. Matsoni is a variation of Matzoon and thus secondary. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 22:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

BaxçeyêReş if you are running out of arguments please stay calm, and do not take it personal and do not edit-war. All this Taco and United States example is nonsense. Again, Lavash and Dolma are also popular in Georgia but no-one claims them. I've provided enough sources and arguments and please do not push that disputed edit. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 22:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

What is it with the sudden ad-hominem attacks, Giorgi Balakhadze? Your source only strengthens my arguments. Acknowledge that, and move on, because this is clearly not going anywhere. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

BaxçeyêReş your words in the face of Georgian and Azerbaijani revisionism... my own Kurdish culture is being appropriated all these show that you take it personal. I will not repeat it again, I've provided reliable local and third-party sources. Just to give a time to rethink I will revert your disputed edits to the stable version only tomorrow. If you keep POV-pushing we will meet at ANI. Silav û rêz.--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 23:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

If you truly want to take something as mundane as this to ANI, then so be it. By the way, in my dialect of Karabakh Kurdish, we actually saw silaw û rêz, but thanks for trying :) BaxçeyêReş (talk) 23:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

@Giorgi Balakhadze just because the Georgian government doesn't do clear revisionism and claim Lavash and Dolma as Georgian, doesn't mean we can rely only on a Georgian source as the origin of Matzun. You need to understand that there is a clear conflict of interest here. Also, are you trying to say that the bar is so low that you literally have to go with the "well they don't do revisionism in these topics so a Georgian source citing Georgian origin is enough I guess".

On the other hand, Multiple 3rd party independent sources clearly show that Matzun is of Armenian origin. You're giving WP:UNDUE weight to the Georgian name by bolding it in the lede (making it seem like both names are of same notability, which they are not). I have to agree with @BaxçeyêReş here. Also, ANI isn't a place for content dispute resolution, please don't baselessly threaten your fellow editor with reports. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 23:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

ZaniGiovanni maybe you stop cherry-picking my sources? I've provided not only "Georgian sources", reread again. The claim that Matsoni is 100% Armenian is disputed and Wikipedia is not a court to decide which side should win the case. Instead, it has to mention all facts: that some sources claim it Armenian and some claim it as Georgian. In addition, regarding your words You're giving WP:UNDUE weight to the Georgian name by bolding it in the lede (making it seem like both names are of same notability, which they are not), it seems you are claiming this as a fact but I don't see your sources here, on the other hand I've provided Google NGRAM viewer that proves both names are common in English. Period.--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 08:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Even simple Google Search shows, that Matsoni 104,000 results is more popular than Matzoon 93,600 results. But despite this I just place Matsoni on the second place (as it was before the user's disputed edits).--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 08:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and I didn't notice before that in the article there are even more third-party sources that claim - "Matsoni, also known as Caspian Sea yogurt, this mesophilic yogurt comes from the region now known as Georgia". "Major microbiota of lactic acid bacteria from Matsoni, a traditional Georgian fermented milk".. Any objections?--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 08:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

As already mentioned in this talk page, the Armenian origin is supported by medieval literature and language studies. If there is a similar level study supporting Georgian origin, please provide it.

The first written accounts of matzoon are attested in medieval Armenian manuscripts by Grigor Magistros (11th century), Hovhannes Erznkatsi (13th century), Grigor Tatevatsi (14th century) and others..

Medieval sources are primary sources, and the topic here is origin not Google search results. Moreover, 3rd party sources showing Armenian origin.

Also, I'm not oppose to including the Georgian name, just not giving it the same weight as the Armenian. Hope you'll understand. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

ZaniGiovanni I've provided 3rd party sources, I've made NPOV changes based purely on the sources. But you still edit-war and call the changes "edit warring"... "pushing POV". The most valuable thing for humans is our time, now I see that you won't change your mind and revert and edit-war no matter what. So I will bring this discussion on the other level and admins will decide who is "pushing POV".--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 10:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Giorgi Balakhadze You don't seem to read my reply and you're being the one edit warring and not following wikipedia procedures. When there is a content dispute, the stable version of the article must be restored until consensus is reached on the talk page. You on the other hand, started changing the page and pushing POV when the discussion wasn't even over [1],[2]. I restored stable edit and invited you here to reply to my latest message [3].

Now, firstly, I'll ask you to justify your accusations of me "edit warring" since baseless accusations qualify as personal attacks (especially since you are the one edit-warring).

Secondly, you still haven't replied to any of my points, so I'll suggest you re-read what I wrote here and stay on the content we're discussing (maybe even reply to my points finally, just maybe).

Lastly, if you're going to make unsubstantiated threats of ANI one more time, you will get reported along with changing the article w/out reaching consensus while there is still discussion going on, edit-warring, and casting aspersions on your fellow editors (baseless accusations of edit-warring). ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

There were two topics: 1st - user BaxçeyêReş removed common name from the article and so I reverted it to the stable version. 2nd - There is a controversy regarding origin. It seems that by using the second issue you have supported BaxçeyêReş and removed common name from the lead. This has nothing to do with WP:SILENCE because before silence you've reverted to the stable version (and regarding 1st topic it was ok for me). So please, do not mix these two topics and don't touch common name.--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 13:16, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

WP:SILENCE means you didn't reply to any of the messages here for more than a week, hence consensus was assumed. And yes, the first accounts of the product in sources does matter as it shows the origin of the product. No, there isn't a controversy regarding the origin, the product is of Armenian origin based on primary first accounts in medieval texts (which I already presented to you). Also, the actual stable edit of the page is the current one, not what you've restored diff (see history of contributions). Now if you'll be kind enough and speed things up a bit more instead of replying again after a week, I'll restore my edit per WP:UNDUE. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

ZaniGiovanni when you joined the discussion we were mainly talking about origin, I understand your argument that Armenian source is the oldest and thus I won't revert any changes regarding origin, if you prove (show) that there is a wiki policy which gives more weight to older sources. But regarding common name (original topic), I've already explained to BaxçeyêReş, that per WP:COMMONNAME Matsoni is equally or even more popular name for the food in English language than Matzoon (for sources scroll above), so when s/he removed it was pure vandalism and when you do the same is it also vandalism. We are all here for one reason to give a reader the most correct and unbiased information regarding topics that we edit. So, I am ready to cooperate using sources and wikipolicies. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 14:08, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

First topic: do you agree that we must stay on the stable version regarding common name in the lead? Yes or No? --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 14:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Second topic: if there is a wiki policy which gives more weight to the older sources. Then I agree not to dispute the origin. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 14:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Giorgi Balakhadze Both origin and etymology are based on medieval Armenian sources from 11 century and on. The first accounts of matsoni appear 4 centuries later. If you dispute the 11th century source, please provide anything predating that. Addictedtohistory (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Addictedtohistory can someone show me where in wiki it is written that sources are prioritized by their age? I am curious.--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 13:23, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

If you dispute the origin of the Matzoon attested in 11 century Armenian manuscript, then you should be able to provide any older source that contradicts it. Should 20th and 21st century articles and cookbooks not sourcing any primary/original sources be more prioritized? Addictedtohistory (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Check out ზურა 6446 08:23, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Renaming

In the article place of origin is indicated as Georgia, so, name of the article should be Georgian Matsoni. ზურა 6446 08:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ზურა6446 (talk • contribs)

Protected Geographical Indications for Georgian products - name of the product is matsoni ზურა 6446 10:59, 9 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ზურა6446 (talk • contribs)

Matzoon is WP:COMMONNAME. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 11:26, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2022

Matsoni is a traditional Georgian product, NOT Armenian. It is disrespectful to my people and culture to have such a big discrepancy. Please correct this mistake. 2603:6080:65F0:8B10:94DD:9FBA:8263:4218 (talk) 02:05, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:10, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2024

The exact time of its origin is unknown, information about it cannot be found in historical sources. Most likely, the tradition of matzani in Georgia dates back to ancient times. According to legends, for centuries the recipe for making green tea was kept secret because it contained the secret of the longevity of the Caucasians. From Georgia, it later spread to neighboring countries, for example, Armenia.[3] Currently, sour cream is widely used in many oriental cuisines to prepare various dishes. Since time immemorial, sour cream has been one of the main food products and a medicine for the population of Georgia. It is used both in the daily diet and as dietary food during diseases. It is especially used in feeding children, including infants and the elderly.[4]

It should be noted that already in the 19th century, in Georgia, sour cream was considered a cultural heritage.  This is evidenced by the exquisitely designed glass jars (with the initials of the author and implementer of the idea R.I. – Rafiel Isarlishvili) specially made for the presentation of the vegetable culture for the Georgian section of the World Exhibition of 1900 in Paris.  With the popularization of green tea, the country tried to introduce milk products with unique properties made in the traditional way to the wider public of the world.[5]

Recent citations issues

The Georgian Feast (Goldstein, 1999) does not even mention matzoon/matsoni on the cited page.

The: World of Jewish Cooking (Marks, 1999) doesn't claim a Georgian origin, it just says it's a common dairy food. Also this is basically a food blog in book form, not a reliable source. Marks quotes a random Georgian woman he met claiming "the food of Georgia is the best of the entire region"; obviously this kind of language can't be included in Wikipedia.

Yemoos Nourishing Cultures is an actual food blog.

Olive Trees and Honey (Marks, 2008) again just says it's a common dairy food, no mention of origin. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

All of this sources say Georgian yoghurt or origins in Georgia. But as you wish, i will add more sources Lemabeta (talk) 08:19, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

No they do not, and please don't add blogs again to this article. I have removed the etymogly paragraph you've added because I couldn't verify that sentence from the two sources you cited (one of which is a governmental primary source that has no place in the article); in fact, the second source you've cited (RL service of Georgia which is regional news service version of RL) said this about matzoon "however, judging by various dictionaries, it must be a word of Armenian origin."

When it comes to the origin, the better sources attest to Armenian origin, and to claim Georgian origin is just undue because the actual specialist yogurt/milk related sources all state the origin to be Armenian:

• Joseph A. Kurmann; Jeremija Lj Rašić; Manfred Kroger (1992). Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products. Springer. p. 212 - "Matzoon (En); mazun (Fr, De); matsun, matsoni, maconi. Short Description: Of Armenian origin"
• A.Y. Tamime,R.K. Robinson. Yoghurt: Science and Technology Archive, Woodhead Publishing, 1999, p. 2 - "Traditional name: Mazun/matzoon, matsun, matsoni, madzoon. Country: Armenia"
• Kirk, Lawrence Eldred (1948). Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. p. 12. Matzoon or mazun, originating in Armenia

I can cite more sources but I wanted to highlight the better specialist sources which have more weight in case of contentious claims, and all the specialist yogurt/milk related sources attest to Armenian origin. Vanezi (talk) 11:53, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Same source you mentioned:

• Joseph A. Kurmann; Jeremija Lj Rašić; Manfred Kroger (1992). Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products. Springer. p. 212 - "Matzoon (En); mazun (Fr, De); matsun, matsoni, maconi. Short Description: "Of Armenian origin; Georgia, Caucasus(USSR)" - mentions as well its Georgian origin next to Armenia.

  • Kirk, Lawrence Eldred (1948). Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. p. 12. Matzoon or mazun, originating in Armenia According to Wikipedia:AGEMATTERS, 1948 is considered very old source, therefore using it when there are newer sources is against the policy. Sources that mention Matsoni as Georgian:

• [12] - page 28.
• [13] - p.51 p.211
• Soviet Food Industry 1958 - [14]
• [15]
• [16] p.20
• [17] Section of Georgia

Lemabeta (talk) 12:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The specialist source of Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products clearly says "Of Armenian origin", it doesn't mention "origin" after the semicolon "Georgia, Caucasus(USSR)", it doesn't say "Of Georgia, Caucasus(USSR) origin" like it does with Armenia, you're just misrepresenting sources now.

With regard to the sources you've cited, again none of them state "Georgian origin" and they aren't specialist yogurt/milk related sources like I've provided. As I said, I can cite many sources that are just stating "Armenian yogurt" or similar [18], [19], but I wanted to highlight the specialist sources in this sphere that do actually state Armenian origin and have more weight than random non-specialist sources which don't even state origin. Vanezi (talk) 12:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

In the source Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products Why was Georgia mentioned if not for origins? Even in upper cases in the same source you can see when a product comes from different countries he counts all of them down so he did with Matsoni as well. Also what makes it a specialist source?

Both Armenia and Georgia should be mentioned as your "specialist" source also mentions Georgia. Besides the other sources i have given. Lemabeta (talk) 13:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

You can't speculate what the source says if it's not explicitly stated by the source, please see WP:VERIFY, WP:OR. What we can say for sure that the sources says Armenian origin because it's direclty stated in the source, and it's not the only specialist source to explicitly state Armenian origin. A specialist source would be a source that is related to the topic of the article such as the sources I provided which are on yogurts/milk related books and hence being specialist sources. These have more weight than some random sources that don't even mention origin. Vanezi (talk) 14:55, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I am saying that the author explicitly stated that in your source. He directly mentions Georgia next to Armenia. I am not speculating anything. Alongside other sources, that source as well need to be used as a source for the argument of Georgian origins. Lemabeta (talk) 15:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

But it's not explicitly stated in the source; the only thing the is explicitly stated regarding origin is "Of Armenian origin". What is said after semicolon (;) has nothing to do with the origin, it's separated by semicolon because of that. Each part after it end has a semicolon indicating separation, see the full quote and you'll see that everything is separated by a semicolon: "Of Armenian origin; Georgia, Caucasus (USSR); tradi- tional product; the milk of ewes, goats, buffalo, or cows or mixtures thereof; yoghurtlike product traditionally made from boiled milk and an undefined starter culture; firm consistency and acidic flavor." [20] And to even further confirm this, on page 366 of the same source, it states "Matzoon (Armenia)" [21].

When it comes to your sources, none of them actually state origin, unlike the specialist sources I've shown which explicitly state Armenian origin. Vanezi (talk) 09:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Vaneziii jan let's be real here. [22] source says that "of Armenian Origin; Georgia, Caucasus(USSR)" and again after saying Georgia he uses semicolon " ; " and continues saying its the traditional product. On top of it before this sentence, he also writes the name Matsoni which is Georgian name.

Other sources which say GEORGIAN YOGHURT, it also indicates the origins of it.

I am now just using your own provided source as you called it specialist source, the specialist source states that its of Georgian and Armenian origins. Lemabeta (talk) 12:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

There's two ways we can interpret the writing of that author. 1)He mentions both Armenia and Georgia as origins of the product or 2)he claims that Matsoni was first created in Soviet Georgia by an Armenian man.

Since we have sources which prove that Matsoni has existed long before USSR, then we conclude that the author means the origins of the Matsoni is both Georgian and Armenian according to him. Lemabeta (talk) 12:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey, this would be the final time I'm asking for you to please read WP:VERIFY and WP:OR, I really don't intend to repeat the same things - your sources don't mention Georgian origin at all. And regarding the specialist source, once again, a semicolon indicates separation - if the source meant Matzoon for both origins, it would say "Of Armenian and Georgian origin". But it doesn't say this and we can't conclude if it does, that would be WP:OR - the source just says "Of Armenian origin" when mentioning origin. The rest are separate sentences divided by semicolon which indicates separation, and in none of the other sentences it ever says "Georgian origin". I think I'm done here as I shouldn't be further spending my time explaining how verifying info works, with respect. Vanezi (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

As you wish, i will ask it and may admins decide. Lemabeta (talk) 14:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't "wish" that because it's not an admin's job to verify source contents, that's competence required by editors, at least on English Wikipedia. The source clearly says "Of Armenian origin" and mentions origin only when referring to "Armenian" (the rest of sentences are separate and divided by semicolon), and none of the sources you've shown even talk about origin. That's really all there is to it. Vanezi (talk) 15:04, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism by Frankish Human

@Frankish Human stop deleting sourced material, or provide a reasoning in the talk section for the reasons of deletion. I will wait a few hours and then revert the changes made by you. My provided links are governmental patent information[23] as well as books written by various people[24][25] [ including medical researchers[26] and lastly journalistic websites[27] and Radio Liberty[28].

If you don't stop the edit warring, i will have no choice left but to report you. I will wait a few hours and if i dont hear the answer from you i will revert back the changes made by you. Lemabeta (talk) 10:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Lmao,you do realize that If you cite a book that you need to cote the page on which the information is stated right? You cant just add a random book as a a source without giving the exact cite to where it was stated

The „patent information“ doesnt talk about the origin of the product but only lists random names and this internet website you send me isnt a realiable source and also doesnt even dive into the origins of matsoni, same with the other baseless sources you send, If someone does vandalism, you are the one, stop edit warring, you shall report yourself with such bad reasoning skilles. Frankish Human (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Frankish Human Search for "მაწონი". its in the 2nd section 4th numbered. Open it and translate what it says inside. Lemabeta (talk) 15:34, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

A georgian language, georgian website source with no verification who wrote it or If that person is a expert or reliable on the topic, aka a unreliable source doesnt prove anything, even If what you said stood there, since the realiable sources of this article provide proof for the etymology and history of matsun that it first was mentioned and that the word also comes from armenian sources and the armenian language it doenst matter/wouldnt matter. Also why did you report me as a sockpuppet? A really coward move, just because you cant accept the truth and dont like that I oppose your vandalism u report me, because u want me gone from this site. Your behavior clearly shows bad intentions. Frankish Human (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

If you aren't a sockpuppet why are you scared? Don't make me report you for personal attacks and insults as well because of calling me "coward" Lemabeta (talk) 16:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 March 2024

Next to where it says Product of Armenian add Georgian origin, so both are included. [29] [30] [31] [32]

"DESCRIPTION OF THE FINISHED PRODUCT AND RAW MATERIAL:

MATSONI is a Georgian traditional cultured milk product, which is prepared from the milk of cow, buffalo, goat, sometimes sheep or their mixing. The cultured milk fermentation gives the product named “Dedo”, which consists of bacterial strains, existed in the local area of Georgia.

GEOGRAPHICAL AREA OF PRODUCTION:

Obtaining, processing and fermentation of milk for MATSONI production takes place in the whole territory of Georgia. Fermentation for obtaining of cultured milk product occurs by the “Dedo” consisting of local bacteria strains."[33]

My opinion is also also agreed by the European Union, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Moldova through a bi-lateral agreement about Geographical Indications registration who recognizes the patented copyright laws and geographical distribution indication of Matsoni.[34] [35] [36] Therefore Georgia has more legal claim over Matsoni so Georgian origins need to be mentioned next to Armenian one as well. Lemabeta (talk) 07:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: I reviewed all of these citations and do not see anything referring to a Georgian origin, only that it is made and consumed in Georgia (which is already covered in the article). The only mention of origin (from link 32, Encyclopedia of Fermented Fresh Milk Products) confirms what the article currently says:

Of Armenian origin; Georgia, Caucuses (USSR); traditional product...

The part about patenting matsoni is already covered at the end of the history section. Jamedeus (talk) 07:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Geographical distribution indication registration already sugggest the origins of Matsoni to be Georgian. Through bi-lateral agreement Eu, UK, Switzerland, Moldova all agree that the origins are from Georgia.

Also in link 32, why does it say Georgia if it doesnt mean origins of it. Lemabeta (talk) 20:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jamedeus "Georgia called dibs on matsoni in 2012 by copyrighting it as a “geographical indication,” a protection mechanism that ties food products to specific a country or territory of origin. Matsoni has thus become to Georgia what champagne is to France and Scotch whiskey is to Scotland."[37]

"Matsoni traces its origins from ancient Georgia and Armenia"[38] Lemabeta (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 March 2024

Hello, dear Wikipedia. My country and I have been grievously insulted by this shocking article, which says that Matzoon (Georgian - Mawoni / Matsoni) originated from Armenia. I mean not to offend the friendly nation of Armenia, however it is believed that they have fabricated the origins of certain products / things in the past. With much respect I would like to kindly ask to place Georgia first, in the "Region or state" section. Additionally, It would be correct to add Georgia as a one of the places from where Matzoon originated. Thank you in advance.

Kind regards, Zaur. Patriot69420 (talk) 18:51, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DrowssapSMM 22:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Nobody in the whole world, except Georgia, doubts that this product originates from Armenia. Matzoon can be made in different countries and have different names, including Georgian Matsoni, but this cannot change the historical fact that this product originates from Armenia. It is very sad that Armenia's neighboring countries have a policy of rewriting history by patenting Armenian products at the national level. Georgia, realizing that Armenia is in a partial blockade, took advantage of this situation and banned the use of the Armenian name of this product. But such actions can only arouse pity. No matter how much the Georgian government tries to appropriate the origin of this product and no matter how much the Georgians vandalize this article, they are still unable to cite a reliable source that dates earlier than the Armenian sources. 79.95.87.93 (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Georgian origins of the Matzoon

The origins of Matsoni is protected by the copyright laws which protects the geographical indication of the product. So to say simply its patented by Georgia. [39] Which is part of the international law procedure of protecting and preserving a culture originally.

The mentioned patent is in accordance to the international agreements which Georgia takes part in such as:

1)Berne Convention[40]

2)Rome Convention[41]

3)WIPO Performances and Phonograms Treaty(WPPT)[42]

4)WIPO Copyright Treaty(WCT)[43]

5)AGREEMENT ON TRADE-RELATED ASPECTS OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS(TRIPS)[44]

Moreover, the registration of trademarks is regulated by the agreements and conventions of:

1)Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property[45]

2)PROTOCOL RELATING TO THE MADRID AGREEMENT CONCERNING THE INTERNATIONAL REGISTRATION OF MARKS[46]

3)AGREEMENT ON TRADE-RELATED ASPECTS OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS(TRIPS)[47]

Therefore, there's absolutely every reason to conclude that intellectual property rights of Georgia protected by the international law, conventions and agreements must be protected even on wikipedia.

Article leading needs to be rewritten according to the geographical indication. Such as for example used in the articles of

1)Champagne

2)Tequila

3)Roquefort. Lemabeta (talk) 11:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

"Proceedings of the Third Regional consultation on geographical indications in Europe and Central Asia" by Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations[48] p. 55

"The basis for the protection of GI in Georgia is national legislation and relevant international agreements. The Law of Georgia on Appellations of Origin of Goods and Geographical Indications (hereinafter the Law of Georgia) was adopted in 1999. The Law of Georgia complies with international and EU laws and is based on the sui generis protection system.

The Law of Georgia recognizes two instruments for identifying the link between a products characteristics and its geographical origin - appellations of origin (AO) and geographical indication (GI). According to the Law of Georgia (Article 3), AO and GI are defined as follows:

1)originating within a given geographical area;

2)the specific quality and features of which are essential or exclusively due to particular geographical environment and human factors; and

3)production, processing and preparation of which takes place within the geographical area.

Geographical indication is the name or any other sign which indicates a geographical area and is used to designate goods:

1)originating within that geographical area

2)specific quality, reputation, or other characteristics of which are attributable to that geographical area; and

3)production or processing or preparation of which takes place in the geographical area. " [49]

------------

"Proceedings of the Third Regional consultation on geographical indications in Europe and Central Asia" by Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations p.58-59 [50]

In 2004, Georgia joined the Lisbon Agreement, which allows for the protection of Georgian AO in 29 member countries of the agreement

In 2007, Georgia and Ukraine signed an agreement on the legal protection of GI wines, spirits and mineral waters

In 2012, Georgia entered into bilateral agreement on the mutual recognition of GIs with the European Union. It gives Georgian producers a very effective tool to protect and enforce their GI rights on the markets of 27 European countries. It is important that in accordance with this agreement (Article 175) the parties shall enforce GI protection through administrative action of their public authorities. They shall also enforce such protection at the request of an interested party.

In 2018, an agreement on the Mutual Recognition and Protection of Geographical Indications, Appellations of Origin and Indications of Source was concluded between the Swiss Confederation and Georgia. The agreement provides that the parties shall ensure that the protection granted by this agreement is enforceable by interested parties in their domestic law.

In 2019, the Strategic Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Georgia was adopted. This agreement includes provisions on protection and enforcement of GI rights that are similar to the EU-Georgia agreement.

Georgian GIs are protected in more than 20 countries, including the United States of America, China, and Commonwealth of Independent States(CIS) countries. It should be note that in addition to fulfilling traditional functions, Sakpatenti is authorized by the Georgian government to participate in the registration procedures of Georgian AO and GI in strategic markets and to monitor their use after registration. In the event of a violation, Sakpatenti contacts the relevant European parties, or in the case of non-EU countries, hires a law firm to take necessary actions against infringers."[51]

Georgian AO and GI are protected in more than 30 countries combined as of 2024 including Armenia as mentioned in the source. Therefore, there is every basis to rewrite the leading of this article in accordance to the geographical indication.

Examples include:

1)Champagne

2)Roquefort

3)Tequila

4)Abondance cheese

5)Bayonne ham

6)Beaufort cheese

7)Chaource

8)Cantal cheese

9)Époisses

10)Livarot cheese Lemabeta (talk) 07:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Stop posting these walls of text with primary sources that don't even mention Matzoon. This is the only source mentioning Matzoon from the Georgian government website, and as I told you already in Chechil talk, a trademark DOES NOT determine origins of something.

Wikipedia is written based upon secondary reliable sources and when it comes to the article sources that actually talk about Matzoon, all of which have been discussed with you already in the above discussion that you have abandoned for months now; you are not saying anything new so WP:DROPTHESTICK. Vanezi (talk) 10:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If you could read, you would see that i have explicitly wrote in bold the part where the source says that the geographical indication specifically means ORIGINS. Go back and read everything i have written. It's not my hobby to argue online, its for improving the article.

Moreover, Matsoni is mentioned as well in the material i brought up. Moreover, even the country of Armenia protects the geographical indication and origins of Matsoni by taking part in the bilateral agreement on protection of geographical indications as Armenia is part of the Commonwealth of Independent States(CIS).

I advice you to reread the points i made above, if you continue to ignore it. i will conclude that the consensus has been reached and make the edit and rewrite the leading according to the aforementioned articles i have listed. Lemabeta (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If you could read, you would see that i have explicitly wrote in bold the part where the source says that the geographical indication specifically means ORIGINS.

Making personal attacks with that "if you could read" comment? Really? I won't comment further on your blatant WP:NPA violation here.

Now when it comes to content which you should discuss, what you're saying directly violates WP:SYNTH: on Wikipedia, we're not allowed to combine sources together to imply a conclusion, especially WP:PRIMARY sources at that. You CAN NOT combine sources to push your preferred conclusion, you're violating WP:SYNTH directly by doing that.

If you don't have better newer sources that were already discussed in the above discussion (in which you don't have consensus and abandoned it months ago), I strongly suggest you consider to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Vanezi (talk) 13:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)