Talk:Max Talmey

Mount Sinai Hospital?

Which Mount Sinai Hospital? The disambiguation page lists 8 or more hospitals of that name. —teb728 t c 00:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

@TEB728: Your old question was still without answer (even when link in the article was already changed to Mount Sinai Hospital, New York). I looked into it, and found out that no other Mount Sinai Hospital, mentioned in the disambiguation page, existed in United States in 1895 when Talmey immigrated and came to work there. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Reference comnented till troubleshot

Link to Times (name=Times4) is not accepted, because in seems to work through proxy, and wouldn't work at general access. Getting permanent link didn't succeed yet, so referrence statement with link temporarily commented to invisibility. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 00:50, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I have perused the source through Wikipedia Library access, and requested permalink to cite from the target, and inserted that string into the referrence; Publish changes still failed with message

"Your action has triggered an edit filter	Warning: An automated filter has identified that your edit includes a link or reference running through a local proxy". 

I tried to change the link to a permanent one as instructed by

You can link to https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?AN=<access number> (the ebsco 'permanent link' to the record), the access number is sometimes visible in other ebsco links (the number after 'AN='), or available from the ebsco page that you are visiting.

With: https://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?AN=54811962, which I understood to be suggested, I was also unsuccessfull. Leaving referrence statement(s) in question in the article commented until the problem is resolved.--Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

More info on Esperanto Max Talmey page

Birthplace

eo:Max Talmey shows data about place (Taurage) and country of birth, which at the time (1869 to seem to have been Kaunas governorate of Russian Empire, which are places that are now parts of Lithuania. For about 200 years that area was part of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, which favored Polish language. That was partitioned between Russian, Prussian and Austrian-Hungarian states about half a century before Talmey's birth.

Practical philologist

From there we can also imply - but without sources, can't know - which were some of the 6 languages source claimed he learned before he was 18 and before he came to study medicine in Munich (I saw that claim in Times article, but couldn't make WP SW accept the link (see above). Some of those were very probably Yiddish, German, Latin (then scientific language, still used in parts of medicine etc.),Russian (heavy russification there at the time), Polish (polification at the end of the Commonwealth), and French (Napoleon's push into Russia got through there too about half a century ago), but I haven't found (also see below) references to confirm any of that about languages, yet.

Work on constructed languages

In the Esperanto article, there are also data about Talmey's presiding New York Esperanto club in 1905, wrote textbooks for learning Esperanto (one of those is in Wikisource), was member of Language Committee in 1905, and vice president of American Esperanto Association in 1906.

After tries for inventor to adopt changes (both to remove then already known weakness, and to include new terms to vocabulary) to Esperanto failed, he (and several others) moved (in 1908) on IDO, and he worked on it into 1930-ies. Then, when development of Ido also fell behind the needs of usage, he continued: he designed and refined a sequence of his own constructed languages evolved from Esperanto (this part already is in the article; I had sources - see previous section).

Marjan Tomki SI this can be interesting for you. It's Talmey's letter (or article?) about his interest to constructed languages, here is a quote from there:

One of my earliest hobbies was languages. It came about through the poverty of words in my mother tongue, which was a mere dialect. The first real language I learned in school. A new world then seemed to open to me. A great many novel concepts were encountered that hardly existed in my dialect. It had no words to render them, while in the language each of them could be expressed by one word, in spite of their complexity. In studying a second language, the experience obtained with the first one and my dialect drew my attention particularly to the comparative expressiveness of the two languages. They revealed a similar phenomenon: many conceptions could be expressed by a single word in one language and only by a circumlocution in the other.

Curiosity was now aroused regarding the expressiveness of other languages and furnished the incentive to study several more of them. By the age of eighteen I had acquired a working knowledge of six languages. All presented the condition found in the first two: the occasional necessity of a circumlocution on one language where a single word sufficed in another, that is, in every language there was want of expressiveness in certain instances.

My preceding experiences engendered the idea of a language never showing lack of expressiveness or always possessing one word for every concept expressible by a single word in any one of the principal languages. This essential feature of the imagined language, the ideal, will be better understood by the following three sets of examples of concepts to be expressed, or definitions, each set taken from a different language.

If you think it's interesting and valuable, feel free to add it to the article! Artem.G (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Problem

Here, problem is that I can't access the source cited in the Esperanto Max Talmey article yet, and so I can't verify that the reference covers this info, and so I can't include it in this article yet. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 04:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

User:Artem.G Thanks, You did a remarkable expansion: on contents, structure and referrences to sources. I'll correct a typo of two you missed, and add some more links. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 18:22, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

• I see you are still working on it and I'll stay off till you are finished. Most typos I saw you have already cleared. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 18:41, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

References

• @User:Artem.G: I fixed a typo or two - as I said I would. I was not sure if I can capitalize

title=Albert einstein and his mentor Max Talmey: The seventh charles B. snyder lecture

to

title=Albert Einstein and his mentor Max Talmey: The seventh Charles B. Snyder lecture

without looking into the source; if the original source is miscapitlized, I'm also not sure could/should I correct it, or need to keep it to the letter as original, so I leave that decision to you. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 23:52, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

• It is miscapitalized, as you presented, also at Springer source. I am still not sure if I can capitalize it properly in WP article (according to rules of language that make it easier to read and understand to users), leave as it is (to make it easier and more reliable to find an exact match by programs), propose correction at Springer source, or something else (including letting it be as it is). --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 08:30, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
• It is correctly capitalized at Europe PMC, Pubmed and Google Books show that in Cumulated Index Medicus, Volume 39, Issue 13 (which is probably the common foundation of all the rest of the references), capitalization is also correct; Springer seems to be an exception. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 09:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
• Another problem, that leaves me in doubt: I corrected comea bums to cornea burns in the article, which is (by my consideable experience with OCR) an evident, and systematic, mis-OCR decoding of a scanned paper document (see also Ttibingen↔Tũbingen, K6nigsberg↔Königsberg, concem↔concern, continufm↔continuum in the same PDF document) at Slidehaven

But it still stands as comea bums in pdf document source I downloaded to check. What does no original reserch and verifiability to reliable resources policies advise in such cases? Is my correction OR and not allowed? Should I let the article contain evident nonsense to be compliant to NOR? I think I might need to bring this to the atttention of Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, but I'll first look if that's already covered there. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 10:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

• Marjan Tomki SI Thanks for correcting my typos! I think that names in the ref can be capitalized, and that comea bums should be corrected too. I don't think it's OR, typos are typos, and in that pdf it was probably due to text recognition error. Artem.G (talk) 15:59, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

  Dubrules Thank you too for your corrections, with a caveat and an explanation.

• Caveat: After immigrating to US, Talmey first worked for a while as general MD practitioner in New York, also as oto-rhino -laryngo-log (regarding troubles with ears, nose, laryinx), before becoming known as eye specialist, chirurgeon and inovator (of tools and procedures), and that's why his works also in field of otology were relevant and published. Also, that's partially behind his observation about correlation between tonsillectomy and polio victims - that virus in that case entered brain through olfatory (smell related) nerves - from nasal cavity to olfactory cortex. So in that case I have to change that back from ontology (philosophy) to otology (medicine, ear related speciality). I think this is supported by source Ravin in the article.
• Just a remark: speciality↔specialty: the first is British, the second American spelled. I usually prefer British for Latin based words, because it makes etymological relations more easily visible to novice linguists, but ortographically they should be both correct.--Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 23:03, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

As a non-native speaker, I checked: Oxford Student Dictionary for learners using English to study other subject , 3rd edition, 2012-2014, Oxford University Press, p.681, that was around, confirms my hypothesis about speciality-specialty above;-) --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

• Artem.G Thanks for including info about Bernard Talmey, who was notable about 1900, but is mostly forgoten now and wouldn't yet merit his own article. About Max: no data about his family in US yet in the article, but he was married with at least two daughters (I don't recall if names were mentioned). Source where I think I saw that was about Einstein being Talmey's guest with with his wife (Elisa?) in NY, and entertaining Talmey's daughters. If you can also find (and include) more about Talmey's family before me, it would be wonderfull. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

  Also, the current state of the article might be over stub level, so this cathegorization could be reconsidered. If you know about a cathegory about good and notable mentors, you could consider including it there too. Also, probably similar aplies to possible cathegories about artificial/auxiliary languages. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 07:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks! Current level of how presented contents about Talmey's influence on Einstein 's teenager progress is supported here, seems to be close to be ready to influence appropriate section(s) of Albert Einstein's article, and also including Max Talmey in AE infobox as significant influence (who helped little Albert to became aware of some people, that are already listed in the infobox.)

  Because that is a hignh profile article (which is often the target of vandalism, and at which talk page is/was already a running debate about reducing clutter (and about what is clutter, or is/isn't notable piece of contents), an advance warning of proposed change, with sources supporting it, could be advisable on that talk page. But for that, quality of proposed change and it's supporting sources is more important then speed, and I am only mentioning it here now for the other editors to be aware of the posibility (and need) to do it, too.

  Also, you could consider if some of newly included contents here could be(or, if necessary, be upgraded to) a good candidate (or even more than one) for a Did you know mentions. Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 08:23, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Euclid Elements

@Okiyo9228: All sources but one (including those three I mentioned in the article) I saw said Einstein called his geometry "eye opener" book "my holly little geometry book", and the one that mentioned his “sacred little geometry book” didn't mention to which book it relates at all, so I changed it from my the "holly... and your the "the sacred... to current "my holly....

But your change (and some additional bits) induced me to a bit more research, and it seems (regardless what journalists in sources we already cited wrote) the little book was not Euclid's Elements directly, but Spieker's textbook on geometry, which could be Lehrbuch Der Levels Geometry - With Übungsaufgaben - Th. Spieker 1899/289. This source seems well supported by sources it's author odepended on, too, and this is also one of the possibles from another source; only timing seems to be a bit in doubt anyway (it seems Einstein recalls receiving it at about 12, Talmey giving it to him before that). I'll check that a bit more (and look into the book in question, if I'll be able to), before changing the related part of the article. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 21:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC) .

May be ambiguous sources of course, but, I got “my holly little geometry book” from Einstein: His Life and Universe book which entails that quote from Einstein Okiyo9228 (talk) 22:14, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Another source (shall be used even more when contents looked into about Talmud/Talmey and also related to Albert Einstein is applied to Einstein article too.

References