Talk:Mazatec/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image tag

Image tag is just sitting there in the text, don't have time to figure out how to fix it. ;Bear 16:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Geography

Relative closeness to the city Mazatlan?! Oaxaca is not particularly close to Sinaloa. This strikes me as either a folk etymology or a link to the wrong (albeit the best known) Mazatlán. As it stands, it's sort of like calling the Cherokee "Cleveland Indians" from their relative closeness to Cleveland, Ohio. Cleveland, Tennessee? Maybe.--Haruo 19:39, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Peyote

Peyote grows in desert areas in northern Mexico and southern Texas and is certainly unknown to the Mazatecs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Cuete (talk • contribs) 15:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Well yeah but peyote has been used in Mesoamerican shamanism and that's where the natives of the US adopted the practice, so it may grow in a few places around there. The Aztec used them. It's very possible that the Mazatec use them as well. Zachorious (talk) 15:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

You speculate that it's possible that the Mazatecs used peyote and that some of it could be growing in the Sierra Mazateca so you edited the article to say that they used it based on this speculation? There is absolutely no documentation of use of peyote by the Mazatecs and peyote grows in deserts. The Sierra Mazateca has way too much rainfall for it to grow in even "a few places around there". Senor Cuete (talk) 16:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete

You don't seem to understand that the first peyote was used in mesoamerica by the aztecs and other mesoamerican peoples. The first mushrooms found in that area were mistaken fore peyote even! Your reasonings are not strong enough here, so rv. Zachorious (talk) 07:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand that your wild speculations have no place in an encyclopedia. You should read the wiki articles about R. Gordon Wasson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Gordon_Wasson) and Maria Sabina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Gordon_Wasson). You will notice that the use of peyote by the Mazatecs is not mentioned at all. You could also read Wasson's books. Peyote was used thousands of years before the Aztecs but not by the Mazatecs. Look at a map of mexico. How far on foot is it from Zacatecas to Oaxaca? The Mazatecs are known for their isolation from other ethnic groups so how could they get peyote. The first people in Mesoamerica were there at least 12 thousand years ago. Did they tell you that "The first mushrooms found in that area were mistaken fore[sic] peyote even!" How completely ridiculous! Where did you get that preposterous idea? The Mazatecs couldn't have mistaken peyote for mushrooms because THERE IS NO PEYOTE IN OAXACA, particularly in the very wet high altitude forests of the Sierra Mazateca. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete

You don't seem to realize that the burden of proof is on you ;). Find a citation....otherwise don't waste my time! Zachorious (talk) 21:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

How about these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Gordon_Wasson

• Forte, Robert. Entheogens and the Future of Religion. San Francisco: Council on Spiritual Practices, 1997.
• Furst, Peter T. Flesh of the Gods: The Ritual Use of Hallucinogens. 1972.
• Riedlinger, Thomas J. The Sacred Mushroom Seeker: Essays for R. Gordon Wasson. Portland: Dioscorides Press, 1990.
• Wasson, R. Gordon, Stella Kramrisch, Jonathan Ott, and Carl A. P. Ruck. Persephone's Quest: Entheogens and the Origins of Religion. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1986.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. The Last Meal of the Buddha. Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 102, No. 4. (Oct. - Dec., 1982). p 591-603.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. The Wondrous Mushroom: Mycolatry in Mesoamerica. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1980.
• Wasson, R. Gordon, et al. The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries. New York: Harcourt, 1978.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. Maria Sabina and Her Mazatec Mushroom Velada. New York: Harcourt, 1976.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. A Review of Carlos Castaneda's "Tales of Power." Economic Botany. vol. 28(3):245-246, 1974.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. A Review of Carlos Castaneda's "Journey to Ixtlan: The Lessons of Don Juan." Economic Botany. vol. 27(1):151-152, 1973.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. A Review of Carlos Castaneda's "A Separate Reality: Further Conversations with Don Juan." Economic Botany. vol. 26(1):98-99. 1972.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. A Review of Carlos Castaneda's "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge." Economic Botany. vol. 23(2):197. 1969.
• Wasson, R. Gordon. Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality. 1968.
• Wasson, Veronica, and R. Gordon Wasson. Mushrooms, Russia and History. 1957.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Sabina

• Álvaro Estrada, María Sabina: her Life and Chants (ISBN 0-915520-33-8)
• Álvaro Estrada, Vida de María Sabina: la sabia de los hongos (ISBN 968-23-0513-6)
• Benjamin Feinberg, "The Devil's Book of Culture: History, Mushrooms, and Caves in Southern Mexico" (ISBN 0-292-70190-X)
• Enrique Gonzáles, Conversaciones con María Sabina y Otros Curanderos (ISBN 968-20-0158-7)
• Rita Guerrero, "¿Qué nombre le ponemos?", Chapter 3 of the History of Santa Sabina
• Michael J. Harner, ed. "Hallucinogens and Shamanism" (ISBN 0-19-501649-1)
• Jerome Rothenberg, ed. "María Sabina: Selections" (ISBN 0-520-23953-9)
• Eric Zolov, Refried Elvis: The Rise of the Mexican Counterculture (ISBN 0-520-21514-1)
• John W. Allen, María Sabina: Saint Mother of the Sacred Mushrooms (ISBN 0-9631518-9-4)
• John W. Allen and Jochen Gartz: Teonanácatl: A Bibliography of Entheogenic Mushrooms (ISBN 1-58214-099-5)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huautla,_Oaxaca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Cuete (talk • contribs) 22:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Those articles don't say peyote isn't there, so rv. Zachorious (talk) 22:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You won't read any of them so how would you know? I guess you are conceding that there is no evidence for your position except for your delusions. The burden of proof is actually on you. You have to prove that they do use peyote. One can't prove a negative. The famous example of this is the question: "When did you stop beating your wife?" How would you answer it? One must prove a fact for it to be positive. Since you can't provide any citations that the Mazatecs know anything about Peyote, This proves I am right. Stop vandalizing the article. Senor Cuete (talk) 22:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)Senor Cuete

Senor C's approach here is quite correct. If Zachorious wants to add in information to the effect that peyote was known/used by Mazatec culture, then the onus is 100% on Z. to provide a source justifying the statement. --cjllw ʘ TALK 05:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well I don't mind the decision, I just think Senor C's original reason for deleting peyote didn't make sense. Because yes peyote is used in Mesoamerica and in some parts of Oaxaca. I havn't found direct online citation, but peyote is still used in this reason, albeit at least by other indigenous groups in the state besides the Mazatecs. Zachorious (talk) 22:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

No Zachorious, no native culture in Oaxaca uses peyote and that's why you can't find a citation. Just admit you were wrong and forget about it. Your speculations have no place in an encyclopedia. Senor Cuete (talk) 03:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)Senor Cuete

Whatever the case may be for other cultures in the Mesoamerican region—who are not homogenous—this article is only about the Mazatec. We'd need specific reference to them before including any mention of the practice.

--cjllw ʘ TALK 03:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the need of citations and such, nor did I claim I did not have them. Senor Cuetre seems rather rude in this discussion, and doesn't seem to be reading what I type. There are numerous historical sources that have confirmed peyote use in Oaxaca.......a lot of these sources are in book form though. For example in the book "Peyote Religion: A History" by Omar C. Stewart does say at the beginning of chapter 2 in his book that peyote was known as far South as Oaxaca, especially following the next three centuries after pre-conquest times. There are numerous other online sources that do state that peyote has been historically found in the Oaxaca region....for example there is another article stating that a ceramic snuffing pipe in deer form with peyote in its mouth was found...it was dated to 2700 BP. Peyote cactus effigies in bowls are found all over Oaxaca. I highly doubt that there isn't a surviving or revived peyote tradition on Oaxaca....of course whether the Mazatec in particular used it is another question....but there's a good chance they do. Either way, I think I shall find some of the sites and get that book online and I'll in time put a mention of Oaxaca being known for peyote ritual use but whether the Mazatec use it in particular isn't fully known. Zachorious (talk) 00:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Outsider observer on this convo, Zachorious, you're clearly wrong. All the evidence has stacked up againsed your speculation. Just becuase the Aztecs used peyote does'nt mean the Mazetecs did. Maybe, just maybe, it did occour on some occasion for some reason. Even if it did, it hardly qualifies as 'tradition'. They used numerous other entheogens already listed. ~S~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.96.162 (talk) 23:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)