Talk:Medieval metal/Archive 1

Archive 1

The quality of this page is quite poor, because it is outdated

The main section are on history, and there are no references newer that 2010. There are little information about what happens today, but some information about what happened a decade or more ago.

Confusion between rock and metal

I find that this article should be related to the heavy metal genre, not rock. Indeed most bands mentionned here are metal bands, such as In Extremo, Subway to Sally, Satyricon.... and as such are very different from folk-rock or gothic rock. These bands are in fact listed in the list of heavy metal bands. I think it's inconsistent to have an article named "Medieval Metal" and have it linked to rock.

Also I disagree with the following statement: "Often, bands of this genre originally played Irish folk music or medieval market music, sometimes developing more towards heavy metal as they gained popularity." This might be the case of some bands, but I think the reverse is just as common, if not more.

I think there's a good deal of clearing up to be done to this article; it should at least have a clear link to the folk metal article, a very close genre (merging them could even be considered). Several bands are in fact mentionned in both articles (Subway to Sally, In Extremo).

Actually, I believe this article should be moved to Medieval rock and Medieval Metal should then become a redirect to that page. Perhaps Medieval Metal should then become a category of that page; however, the difference between Medieval Metal and Medieval Rock is relatively slight--the majority of bands that identify under either of these subgenres play music of both styles (i.e., Subway to Sally has recently tended more toward metal, while their earlier material tended much more toward Medieval Rock). The german article de:Mittelalter-Rock linked to this article in English, which really doesn't make any sense--it should link to Medieval rock--but that's the article I, more or less, based this one on.

I agree with you that the statement you mentioned should be deleted, or the alternative should be explained--although it does seem to be the case with most bands (at least most that I know). The article already links to Folk Rock, but I agree it should also link to Folk Metal. However, I certainly don't think the two should be merged; this article just needs to be cleaned up and expanded. Subway to Sally and In Extremo are mentioned in both articles because they play music from both genres. AmiDaniel 08:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this article should be merged with Neo-Medieval music? — Gwalla | Talk 07:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

No it is separate like neo-prog and progressive rock. --CircafuciX 07:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with suggestion to move this article to medieval rock and redirect from medieval metal to there. There is a difference between medieval rock and medieval metal. As this article hints at start, medieval rock has a longer history from about 1970 on, growing out of electric folk. I have info on this for Britain and a few other areas. The article would link to folk rock and electric folk as well as folk metal and neo-medieval music. The way I see it medieval rock is a sub-category of neo-medieval and medieval metal is a sub-category of that of that. I think this will make the whole business easier to understand without destroying this useful article.--Sabrebd (talk) 23:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

During the later 70ties it was not unusual for the rock scene to experiment with all kinds of things, including different musical influences. Bands like Ougenweide discovered that rock music works with middle-ages tunes, while others discovered that heavy blues works great as well. Same goes for psycheldic sounds among others. This whole background eventually made metal music emerge. I guess there can be two ways:
A) the "DNA" of metal music contains pieces of all those influences, but the artist first fathomed the new metal sound and the possiblities with it. When the metal genre was solid, they also started to reach out to those pieces that are more ingrained into the metal fabric and discovered that like with rock music, those influences still mix well (as they are already somewhat part of it). After all, it seems to be a no-brainer to mix middle-ages music with (heavy) guitars, when the concept already worked in this configuraton fifteen years earlier.
B) Genres that appeared in the late 70ties and early 80ties slowly matured and artist therefore started mixing this new distinct genres as well, as it happened in a simular fashion the decades before when e.g. with rock (and see above: then metal). For example, Rap and Rock was shuffled, then Hip and Metal, then the amalgam of various maturing sub-genres into metalcore etc. In that sense it was likely that someone would start using metal and middle-ages music and mix both together.
I think both can be true, I don't know if the artists first listend to Ougenweide (or some other band) and thought: "nice, we can do this as well with metal" or it was middle-ages music that sparked this idea directly, without ever knowing 70ties bands.
In any case, its either continuity or a rediscovery of the idea. I would't say that the idea to mix folk/middle-ages whatever with metal (or any other type of rock-based music) was entirely fresh. So my suggestion would be that all the articles, be it Folk Punk, Pagan Metal or Medieval Metal etc. should at least link somewhere that predecessors exist in overall musical history (rock is relevant to metal or punk in those cases). In other words, you cannot state that someone invented the car out of thin air. You would include somewhere that vehicles already existed before. --95.88.215.96 (talk) 00:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Moved from the article

I moved the following discussion piece by User:195.93.21.3 from the article here for discussion:

I find that this article should be related to the heavy metal genre, not rock. Indeed most bands mentionned here are metal bands, such as In Extremo, Subway to Sally, Satyricon.... and as such are very different from folk-rock or gothic rock. These bands are in fact listed in the list of heavy metal bands. I think it's inconsistent to have an article named "Medieval Metal" and have it linked to rock.

Also I disagree with the following statement: "Often, bands of this genre originally played Irish folk music or medieval market music, sometimes developing more towards heavy metal as they gained popularity." This might be the case of some bands, but I think the reverse is just as common, if not more.

I think there's a good deal of clearing up to be done to this article; it should at least have a clear link to the folk metal article, a very close genre (merging them could even be considered). Several bands are in fact mentionned in both articles (Subway to Sally, In Extremo).

Actually, I believe this article should be moved to Medieval rock and Medieval Metal should then become a redirect to that page. Perhaps Medieval Metal should then become a category of that page; however, the difference between Medieval Metal and Medieval Rock is relatively slight--the majority of bands that identify under either of these subgenres play music of both styles (i.e., Subway to Sally has recently tended more toward metal, while their earlier material tended much more toward Medieval Rock). The german article linked to this article in English, which really doesn't make any sense--it should link to Medieval rock--but that's the article I, more or less, based this one on.

Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction

Faun and Corvus Corax are listed as exemplars of the genre, but then later are specifically said to not be medieval rock. Which is it? — Gwalla | Talk 07:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Satyricon =/= Mittelalter-Rock

The claim that Satyricons album "Dark Medieval Times" is Medieval Rock is utterly ridiculous. It's like lumping Primordial and Clannad together because both have celtic themes. Dark Medieval Times is black metal with folk influences, which is a very different form of music. As for the lyrics, they (even though they have been lost since the release of said album) might happen to have a medieval theme, just like some Darkthrone songs for example, but there ends any similarities. Thus, I remove the part of the text here discussed. Taeronai (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Change in article name

I changed the name of the article by moving Medieval rock to Mittelalter rock. This is a more accurate term in describing a specifically German music genre, scene and movement. This name change will help to avoid original research by well-intentioned individuals who might erroneously think that the article is a catch all term for any rock band that has in one way or another flirted with medieval music briefly or extensively. As evident on this talk page, past examples include the black metal band Satyricon and the pagan folk band Faun while the history of the article reveals that Jethro Tull, Camel, Rush and Blackmore's Night have all been mentioned. There is no evidence whatsoever that any of these bands have anything to do with the Mittelalter rock of In Extremo, Subway to Sally, Morgenstein, Tanzwut, Saltatio Mortis and the many other German bands who do not have a wikipedia page yet. --Bardin (talk) 14:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

After lengthy discussions, a consensus was achieved to turn medieval rock into a disambiguation page with links to here; a new article Medieval folk rock (which covers most of the bands mentioned in the paragraph above); and the neo-medieval music page (which needs further developement for dark wave medieval-influenced music. Because the disambiguation is for different terms that are synonyms of medieval rock, but not each other - 'other' links were not placed on the individual pages - although this is open to debate. I also note the info box for this article carries the old term 'Medieval rock' from when it was on that page. I suggest this is changed to 'Mittelalter metal' or 'Mittelalter rock', because: the disambiguation page will direct those interested in this topic here anyway; it will prevent confusion and fit in with the disambiguation; and to follow the logic of this page that this is about a specific form of German heavy metal. I do not plan to do this but suggest those most concerned with the page should consider it. Also the place of Ougenweide is now dealt with in Medieval folk rock and so needs to be removed form here. --Sabrebd (talk) 14:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Time of cultural origins

Well one band named Corvus Corax was formed in 1989 (very late 80s) but I understand that there might not be enough bands from that time, just maybe 2 or 3 that I've seen (and forgot). −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 04:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that Corvus Corax did not start off as a medieval rock group but as a straightforward medieval group. No guitars or rock drums. Just bagpipes and other medieval instruments. Midway through the 1990s, they started experimenting with electronics and guitars. That eventually led to their side project Tanzwut. So that's why I opened the paragraph on Corvus Corax with the phrase "another source of inspiration". I was not able to find any reference to them being the first medieval rock band but I did found one such reference crediting Subway to Sally as "the band that set off the wave of what is known as medieval rock." If you can find any reliable reference crediting Corvus Corax as a medieval rock band from the very start of their career (or anytime before the 1990s), then feel free to add that information in the article. If you can also find reliable references on other medieval rock bands that formed in the late 1980s, then by all means add that info too and change the cultural origins to the late 80s. I must admit that I'm far from an expert on the genre. I listen to the music but I certainly have no idea what the bands are singing about because I don't speak or read German. There are probably a lot more material about the genre written in German but all that I could go with was the English stuff I found online and the stuff I found indicate that the genre had its origins in the early 1990s. --Bardin (talk) 05:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for the article 'list':

Cultus Ferox and Schelmish. 65.189.146.128 (talk) 00:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

There are two genres of music known as medieval rock. Previously, wikipedia only had an article on one of these two genres: namely, the heavy metal version that dates from the 1990s. An article on the folk rock version that dates from the 1970s has recently been created. While previously medieval rock was a redirect to this page, it is now a disambiguation page. Mittelalter rock is simply the German translation/name for medieval rock and I feel as a matter of courtesy, it too should now be redirected to the disambiguation page. Medieval metal is currently a redirect to this article. This article should be renamed to medieval metal. For the record, I am the primary editor/author of this page and I was also the person that originally chose mittelalter rock for the article's name. --Bardin (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that would resolve the issue of names raised above. --Sabrebd (talk) 16:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

But bands as Schandmaul, Schattentantz, Saltatio Mortis or Schelmish are no metal bands. They are clearly rock bands and in Germany the genre name Mittelalter-Rock (medieval rock) is used for these bands. Mittelalter-Metal (medieval metal) is rarly used only for bands with strong metal influences like Ingrimm. So the label for this article should be Medieval rock. You could maybe put this articel and the article Medieval folk rock together in one article under one name and describe both the situation in Germany and other countries. --Schandolf (talk) 00:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea why you would think they are not metal bands but they certainly are recognized as such by many, including database sites like Metal Archives & MusicMight: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Saltatio Mortis is even signed to a specialist heavy metal label: Napalm Records. There's little info on Schelmish in English, which probably explains why there's no article for them on wikipedia, but apparently they are or were also signed to Napalm Records. A search on google germany reveals many heavy metal websites covering all these bands. Heck, even the first page of Schattentantz's official website states the word metal quite clearly. --Bardin (talk) 05:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

A very careful search into the connections between medieval folk rock and medieval metal bands was undertaken before the current structure was arrived at. There was no significant evidence that they were part of the same genre. Putting them in the same article would be confusing and inaccurate.--Sabrebd (talk) 06:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Sabrebd and Bardin here and this is an old discussion now since it has already been taken care of. I'm sure there are more bands out there that haven't been found yet and it would be nice to have more bands. I might look for some later but anyway sources are there recognizing these bands as medieval metal more so than medieval rock. FireCrystal (talk) 06:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

As these are German bands there seems to be a lack of information in English language. If you visit Schandmaul's website you can read in the title, that they describe themselves as deutschsprachige Mittelalter-Folk-Rock-Live-Band ([1]) (German speaking medieval folk rock live band). Have you ever listened to their music? That's folk rock, not metal.

From my point of view you're just happy now that you have seperated the articles although it doesn't make sense. You deleted the information about Ougenweide from this article and copied it to the other one. In Extremo and the German Medieval rock bands are influenced by Ougenweide, e.g. uses In Extremo their melodies for the song Merseburger Zaubersprüche. This information is missing now. Ougenweide was the first band who mixed rock elements with medieval music in the 1970s. This influence is much more important than any influence of Skyclad to the medieval rock scene in Germany. That's just an information you put in the article so that it fits as it is, but it's not the reality.

Some sources for you about the German medieval rock scene (but they are in German) that are much better than the entries from metal-archives and other databases that anyone can edit:

• Very good article by the Goethe-Institut about Mittelalter-Rock (with bands): [2]
• German Rock Lexikon about Mittelalter-Rock with band list: [3]
• http://www.rock-musiker.de/mittelalterrock.html
• Article about Subway To Sally and the history of Mittelalter-Rock in Germany: [4]
• In Extremo labelled as Mittelalter-Rock: [5]

--Schandolf (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Did you read the first sentence? "'Medieval metal or medieval rock"? The bands are not only recognized as rock but as metal as well such as here, here and at times only metal, such as here, here, here, and here. The terms are clearly interchangeable as either medieval rock or medieval metal or in the language of the region's genre are used. What else do you want? By the way, don't tell us what you personally think a band plays. It's original research even if it's true and it doesn't change a thing. Also, we can't use a source of a band describing themselves, that would be a self-published source. FireCrystal (talk) 00:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The other article Medieval folk rock begins with: Medieval folk rock, medieval rock, .... You are right that it's wrong to use subjective views in Wikipedia. But musicmight as an editable site is also not a good and completely credible source. What do you think about the information about the important Ougenweide influences that was deleted (as mentioned above)? --Schandolf (talk) 10:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Garry Sharpe-Young controls that site and even has a book on an extensive amount of bands which he made biographies of each band. [6] It's still credible but it's not Rolling Stone for say. Though you're right it looks like the site is now user-edited (but are these edits controlled by the staff?). I'm not sure of Ougenweide but I'll try to research on it to know more about them. Lastly, I suggest contemporary medieval rock be added to reduce confusion. FireCrystal (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)