Talk:Melbourne shuffle/Archive 1

Archive 1

Major cleanup

Have taken to this article with a chainsaw and removed a lot of the crap. What this article desperately needs is proper references. I'm searching for whatever I can find, but not much is out there on the web. Also: this article is not a place to big note yourself, your club or your dance party event (which was basically all the previous article was). NathanLee (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Also cleaned up the talk page a bit.. What a mess. NathanLee (talk) 20:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Note for contributers

If you have material that is REFERENCED (that is there's a newspaper article or something) then the information can be put in. Descriptions of how cool someone is or your completely unverifiable personal opinion on who is a jetsetter in the Melbourne shuffle world are not going to make it into the article, plain and simple. Nor are collections of names of people, groups etc that there's no record of in any reliable source. NathanLee (talk) 11:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

"Notable shufflers" - removed

Think this section was just added as more shameless self promotion. If there's any reference in media or anything to support the inclusion of this section, then by all means. NathanLee (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

" Another Cleanup "

Cleaned up the page, added the ( old ) news of Channel 10 doing a documentry on the shuffle, deleted some shameless self promotion in the process, " Ministry of Shuffle " can you please not mention the site on the History of the Dancestyle? PezPez (talk) 03:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

History section.. ditching

Since the only references for the stuff come from a blog and it's changed from "origins to jazz" to "origins in irish dance" I think it's just too random to use as a definitive guide on it.. Sounds like someone on that site decides to change their mind every second blog as to where the thing comes from.. If only we had some newspaper articles handy beyond the one on the Age I found.. NathanLee (talk) 12:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, when did Ballet come into play lol someone messed it about. PezPez (talk) 03:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.89.73 (talk)

I mean I've referred to it as the irish dancing of raves, but when it claims to have directly come from something and then changes it.. Well, it might have just evolved (like the original dance forms did). Think it's funny to say that because it looks kinda like something that it must have descended from groups of gaelic dancers or whatever.. :P NathanLee (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Newspaper Articles?

Should newspaper articles regarding the Shuffle be mentioned in the "Media" section? MindWraith (talk) 12:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC) uneducated freaks? your a freak if you know everything about melbourn crap. why take the time to waste it all studying and pretending to know things when you could possibly have a successful life and job. get off wikipedia and get a life —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benmachen123 (talk • contribs) 01:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

how does this differ from hakken?

It would be good to explain how this differs from hakken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.164.229 (talk) 21:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Hakken is a completely different dance. Search hakken on youtube then melbourne shuffle and you will see the difference —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.234.223.34 (talk) 20:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Rock music?

"People who dance the shuffle are often referred to as rockers, due in part to the popularity of shuffling to rock music in the early 1990s."

No sources or citations. Old Skool shufflers are called rockers because they move their upper bodies back and forth, creating a rocking motion.

67.232.177.174 (talk) 01:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

AC/DC made some of the most popular shuffle music in the 80's. http://melbourneshuffleoldskool.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/shuffle-music-practice-mix-2-rockin.html "Rock as an oldskool shuffle style did in fact exist, though it was still called stomping. It incorporated traditional Melbourne rock type dance moves such as the Sharpie dance... You begin with the music ROCK, and you dance to the music." MindWraith (talk) 06:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment

I dont mind some of the stuff on the page but unfortunately it has some pretty glaring bias's floating around on there. It reeks pretty heavily of garry shephard, who most people would agree has been around since the year dot but is more interested in archiving a place in time rather than shuffling specifically. Also, the thing about talc being used in the northern soul scene in the states may be well meaning, but its wrong, northern soul is the brand of soul that was played in northern uk soul clubs from the late 60's until now, in the states they tend to call the same stuff rare soul. Also, the underground may have started in some small way in the late 70's shuffling did not kick off until 88 at the earliest. Acid house had been dead for quite a while b4 rocking kicked off. I cant lay claim to knowing who started the melbourne shuffle but I was around in 91-92 when it started to kick off in a pretty big way. I havent changed anything on the page cos there is more thats right about it than there is thats wrong about it, but the history is just out by ten or fifteen years. Also, in the list of places where the shuffle evolved, perhaps PURE in south melbourne then out the back of the palace could get a guernsey along with the fact that earthcore had sweet F>A to do with the evolution of the shuffle as it was almost frowned upon by the DOOF brigade. Not to mention the berzerk parties in the early 90's as well as the recoveries at the francis on lonsdale street where most of the hardcore ravers would end up eventually. Also, the mention of rupert from sonic animation mentioning shuffling might have been the first time it was mentioned in the media(especially considering the guy wasnt exactly "blessed" dancing wise it makes me wonder if he would really call his style of dancing shuffling as I dont think ive ever seen the guy on the dancefloor and a close mate of mine was one of the original guys in sonic animation and he definitely was a decent dancer) the dance style was called that unnoficially in the early 90's, rocking is a term that seems to have come in "relatively" (I mean after 96 when I put my runners away)recently. I would also question the specific history of the shuffle towards the end of the page seems a little too simplistic to me. Anyway, its a half decent start, but id hate for people to read this page as the last word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.144.151 (talk) 21:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

too many people use this page as shameless self promotion, this is a not an advertisement space (This comment added by 210.49.242.124 · 2006-06-07 23:19:35)

If people are using this page for shameless self indulgence, then let them have their 15 mins. Plus there are some un-cultured freaks out there that always don't know about the underground scene of melbourne (This comment added by 58.104.120.123 · 2006-06-09 21:05:18)

Please do not delete comments, just add your own. —johndburger 02:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

________________________________________________________________________________________

I agree but i also believe alot of these names have been around since the earlier periods. They are significant with what moulded the scene, please add your comments or modify what is on the main page if you think it should be edited.

Many people will have their own beliefs about that was classified as "the underground scene in Melbourne".

alot of these clubs \ places no longer exist

Peter James

This Article is really terrible. It deviates hugely from its topic. I mean a whole section of what ravers wear is already covered in the rave page.

Done a quick clean up, but still needs a lot of work--Stretch 11:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Muzzacore? Are you fucking kidding me?? This article is absolute shit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.214.45.99 (talk) 03:03, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

———————————————–————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

MSO and the forum itself is terrible portrayal of the shuffle scene. It's hostile and Gary Shepherd thinks he's so powerful in the community when half the shufflers don't even know his name. Global Shuffle isn't just an MSO thing. Get rid of that and replace it with something like the 07 revolution and mention the impact of Melbshuffle and the videos from that period. Also add the ACTUAL documentary made in 2005. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.149.80 (talk) 07:02, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Shuffling in the few last years

As with all street dances, Melbourne Shuffling has evolved furtherly into Electro Shuffling, Hardstyle Shuffling (yes, it has some differences from oldskool Melbourne), Malaysian (MAS) Shuffling. Apart goes (too bad) LMFAO/California Shuffling, which is seen by many as an insult to the dance. Some argue that it even shouldn't be dared to be called shuffling. Now, when one follows youtube closely one can easily see these different kinds, but how can that be solved in terms of sources for the article? 190.98.32.219 (talk) 17:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The oldskool shuffle community doesn't have anything against LMFAO, and many old school shufflers love 'Party Rock'. It only seems to be the newer shufflers who take it really seriously that have hate for them. MindWraith (talk) 01:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually Oldschool Shufflers Do Have A Problem With "Party Rock". Mainly Beacuse It's So Mainstream, All Kids Unsterstand From Shuffling Is What 'LMFAO' Show Them. Kids And New Shufflers Alike Don't Get To See Or Be Educated Of The Origins Of The Original "Melbourne Shuffle". I Beilive It Should Be Called "Cali Chuffle", That Way So New Upcoming Shufflers Will Understand That "Party Rock Anthem" Didn't "Start" What We Know As Shuffling. Dowa2bp (talk |contribs) 15:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Noone thinks LMFAO invented shuffling, music videos had it before them. That would be like people thinking that MC Hammer invented the running man, or thinking that Vannila Ice invented the T-Step just because their music videos featured it. MindWraith (talk) 02:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

But What Your Forgetting Is Melbourne Shuffling Is Underground And Anyone Looking For A Quick Definition Will See This Page And Misunderstand.. You Must Distinguish The Two. Dowa2bp (talk |contribs) 19:23, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The Melbourne Shuffle hasnt been underground since 2006 when people started putting it on Youtube. It's been mainstream for years, it's only America that's just catching up now because of LMFAO. MindWraith (talk) 03:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

All The More Reason To Make Sure Americans Don't Confuse Thoose Two Different Dance Styles. If You Still Don't Understand I'll Give You An Example. -- Take An Egg And Cook It --- #1 You Can Mix It All Inside The Pan, Add Pepper,Garlic,Bacon Bits etc. And Have Scrambled Eggs, #2 You Can Just Let The Egg Sit There And Sizzle And Have Eggs Sunny Side Up. Now Either Way You'll Be Eating Eggs, BUT Would It Not Be Ignorant To Say They Will Both Taste The Same? Dowa2bp (talk |contribs) 21:44, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

LMFAO didn't make their own type of shuffling though. 'California Shuffling' or whatever it's called is just regular one-step shuffling. I saw people do it more often than two-step shuffling even before Party Rock came out. None of it can be blamed on LMFAO. MindWraith (talk) 04:03, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually There Are Many Who Agree With Me, But All I'm Asking For Is To Change The Name.... Would You Like Some Quotes?

Here Are The Quotes (Via Youtube)By Real Shufflers Like Me --

"The problem is that LMFAO and their fans ACTUALLY think they are shuffling when they're not even close. Soo tired of kids at my school randomly doing the running man (incorrectly, and I'm in high school so no it isn't little kids) by yoimatree"

"A dude in my classroom says lmfao is a little bit better because he thinks melbourne shufflers are sped up...I guess they all got used to the slow poorly performed running man.. by pnitro3"

"I'm so glad that people understand how I feel about the Party Rock song being an utter disgrace to Melbourne Shufflers. It ruined Shuffling. by ssystemofadown" Dowa2bp (talk |contribs) 8:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Youtube users aren't reputable sources. You can't change anything on Wikipedia based on opinion. But if you would like a more reputable source from someone who disagrees with your stance, here is a quote from Gary Shepherd. The owner of one of the worlds first shuffle night clubs and one of the founders of the melbourne shuffle in the 80's. "No offence intended to LMFAO, but people think your style is crap, it’s not, it’s just done by noobs. In Shuffling we don’t condemn the learners for trying, we teach them how it’s done properly. The combination of Rap Rock and Shuffle was first done in Australia by NAM." This is an example of a reputable and experienced source, as opposed to people who just started shuffling in the last few years from YouTube. MindWraith (talk) 02:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I Believe You Just Proved My Point With That Quote. Anyway I'm A Melbourne Semi-Pro SHuffler. I've Been Shuffling For 2 Years Now. May I Ask What Experience You Have On This Topic? Dowa2bp (talk |contribs) 2:32, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Garry Shepherd is actually not a reputable source at all. He has made a lot of false accusations towards people hosting events that happen to be or sound similar to 'Global Shuffle'. Most activity on his forum is faked too. False accusations are to be found here: http://mso1.cultureforum.net/t1216-fake-global-shuffle-dvd-s-competitions-meetups-etc. It doesn't take a genius to realize how ungrounded these accusations are, coming from a 50-year-old dude towards plain Youtube shufflers that dance for fun.

As long as these accusations stand, his voice isn't going to be respected by any shuffler, young or old. 190.98.50.94 (talk) 01:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I've been shuffling for 4.5 years, came 4th place in 2009's National shuffle competition and have an interview in "The Global Shuffle 1990:2010" documentary, presently screening at film festivals. I basically made this page and have been running it since. I didn't add the LMFAO quote, but nothing in my experience tells me that it should be removed or changed. MindWraith (talk) 10:56, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay I See Where Your Coming From, But Can All I Want Is To Seperate "LMFAO"'s Shuffle (Which Is Clearly A Close Relative Of Cali And Not Melbourne) And Just Label It Cali Or Another Name, Because It May Be A Type Of Shuffling But It's Deffinitely Not Melbourne. Dowa2bp (talk |contribs) 21:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You would be free to do that if you can find a reputable source on it. But unfortunately noone, including myself, can add something to the article without a source. You would have to find some kind of interview where LMFAO or someone prominent in the dance community mention's a distinction between Melbourne and Cali shuffling. MindWraith (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Sounds A Little Tuff To Go And Get LMFAO To Sit Down And Prove My Points... But Will Any Other Sources Count? Dowa2bp (talk contribs) 20:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Some of us are old enough to remember the Mashed Potatoes dance craze of the 1960s. Same steps.124.122.129.210 (talk)

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Requested move 5 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. No objections after 7 days. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

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Melbourne Shuffle → Shuffle dance – Per WP:RECOGNIZABLE, as overwhelmingly the most WP:COMMONNAME (by about a 10:1 ratio). The "Melbourne" name as a supposed origin story is even disputed according to our article. Regardless, it's barely used today. This is called "the shuffle dance" (as a dance) or "shuffle dancing" (as an activity) and it's become well-developed, including sub-styles, large-scale competitions, etc., all over the world. We wouldn't use Shuffle dancing as the title (though that should continue to redirect here) per WP:NOUN. It's sometimes also called "the shuffle", but that's actually the name of the basic move (inherited from tap dance), and is ambiguous anyway (several other dance styles have an unrelated move by the same name). PS: If this is not moved to the suggested name, it should be moved to Melbourne shuffle, per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS (esp. MOS:GENRE), WP:CONSISTENCY, etc., because it is not a song title, an individual's work of choreographed dance, or any other kind of proper noun phrase. This is a folk dance of unknown exact origin, not a discrete work. It's thus like any other popular activity, from billiards to water-skiing to roleplaying games to line dance.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Side observation: The content of this article is a trainwreck. Almost every single sentence in it has multiple WP:MOS problems (especially rampant over-capitalization), and there's a lot of original research, some "how to"-leaning material, lack of sourcing, general unencyclopedic writing, etc., etc. This is true of many other dance articles, but this is among the worst offenders. I seriously hope WP:WikiProject Dance will devote some time to it, since it's actually an important article, as current popular culture topics go.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Melbourne

My observation is that any Aussie involved in the club scene likely has killed enough brain cells with alcohol that any memory is more properly termed a recollection which is to say a reconstruction. The fact is that shuffle type moves were present in the US long before 1990 and stomping has little resemblance to shuffling though the Melbourne style is cruder than US shuffling.

So I guess we can swallow the notion that Melbourne invented the shuffle from the stomp and the Aussie influence spread to the US where people were already using the "impure" and derided "Cali" steps. But the majesty of Australian influence over American society was unstoppable and so the Aussie shuffle then became entrenched in the US where the US shamelessly and despicably adulterated the Melbourne shuffle with the steps that had already been used in raves here. Or we can understand the shuffle was already a US phenomenon and some Melbourners made it their own by mating it with their club culture. The US shuffle despised as impure by Aussies which existed before the Aussie "invention" may not have been called the shuffle so Aussies may claim the application of the term but the moves were already in place. So go ahead and call the US version something besides shuffle and allow it to continue because the Aussie variant is almost as bad as watching Germans try to dance. For a form of artistic expression it is odd to claim origination then deride something else you wish to claim as your invention as having been ruined. If it's that different then it really should be called something else and you should free yourselves from the responsibility of inventing it.

I have no problems recognizing that Aussie's developed the Melbourne shuffle. That's why it's called the Melbourne shuffle. It was the variation of shuffle developed by Aussies.2600:1700:6D90:79B0:FDC6:BC30:4365:6DDB (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

OLD UK RAVER I'd like to agree with the sentiment of this post. Its not even clear if the dance moves in the Melbourne shuffle in the early 1990's are any different at all to what we were seeing else where years before this.

IMO mid to late 80's USA lead the way musically whilst UK lead the way for the actual events. I believe the UK scene was recreated in the US some years later.

Can anyone provide video evidence prior to 1989 of shuffle dance moves at an actual rave? So far the UK has it and I doubt 1989 was the start of it here either. I suspect it was either started in the UK or US, almost certainly not Australia. The Ozzies were playing catch up neither leading the world with the scene or the music.

History needs correcting

- "Early 1990s" section: "The music genres originally danced to were hardstyle...". This is not accurate b/c hardstyle did not exist in the early 90s. Should techno or trance be included as an original style? I wasn't there personally to verify but techno & trance were styles that dancers shuffled to in later years and they certainly existed in the early 90s as music styles. The first listed reference from onlymelbourne.com.au is no longer linking to the specified article.

- Main section at top: "The shuffle dance... developed in Melbourne, Australia in the early 1990s." This contradicts the estimated years of 1988-1992 in the table shown here under the Rave article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rave#Dancing. Also, here is an original music video for the 1989 US house track, Frankie Bones & Lenny Dee - Just As Long As I Got You, that features a silhouette of a dancer doing an early version of the shuffle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wSfpw2Y16s, especially in the beginning. Shape55 (talk) 00:00, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

No Citations or Evidence - The main Shuffle Dance moves appear to have been invented else where

You've provided virtually no evidence that the shuffle was invented in Melbourne and most your citations you do provide don't work. I've provided various video evidence of the shuffle dance moves being performed in the UK during 1989 and also showed how main stream it was that by 1991 prodigy were doing it in their pop videos that must have circled the globe. You can't even provide any evidence of it being in Australia prior to 1991 let alone in the late 80's. There is also a lot of missinformation on this page. Like Mc Hammer inventing running man. What a load of nonsense try using wiki!

There is even a commenter at the top of this talk saying "I cant lay claim to knowing who started the melbourne shuffle but I was around in 91-92 when it started to kick off in a pretty big way" By 1992 the shuffle dance moves were dying in the uk! It had been around for quite some time! This dance as rave dance moves almost certainly didn't start in Melbourne or even Australia did it. It was most likely UK, it had been big there before it was a big in Australia IMO. Also for Rave culture the UK was where it was at globally during those years. Prove me wrong. I've provided evidence to back up what I already know for a fact to be true. I was part of the underground UK party scene from 1989. I saw it first hand.

Until these points and all the citation requests I put in the document are addressed then every time you revert my changes I am going to put them back in. Ignoring dealing with the hard facts I've presented does not make your clearly flawed version of events right. This is one of the most inaccurate and poorly managed wiki pages I've ever seen. Also your method of intellectual debate leaves much to be desired. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiRaver (talk • contribs) 12:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

You interpreting the videos as showing evidence of the shuffle are original research. Please read WP:RS and stop edit warring. Spike 'em (talk) 14:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Incidentally, I have no opinion on where the dance originated, but the addition of youtube videos as proof it existed in UK violates one or both of WP:RS and WP:NOR. Spike 'em (talk) 15:02, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

So where is the evidence for the rest of the page? My evidence is the best there is. There is nothing close to it on the page. Get real! just delete all the information that isn't provable on that page, which is the WHOLE page if my evidence is no good!!!! IMO. I asked for citations and none were provided. BTW I was shuffle dancing my self in the UK around 1989 / 1990 (although we didnt call it that then but its the moves), I know what I'm saying to be true. those Videos I linked come from an official archive!

Using this one as a start. Where on the video is there any captioning / commentary saying something along the lines of "here are some dancers performing the new shuffling craze"? Unless you are an acknowledged expert on dance crazes, you using it to prove your case is original research. Spike 'em (talk) 15:46, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

So find one bit of evidence that is nearly as good as that regarding the information it was invented in Melbourne. You can't because it wasn't. Some of the citation requests on this page have been there years!!!!

This whole wiki page is original research, especially for the years 1987-1995 ish. Call it what you will but shuffle dance moves could be seen in the video I linked and they were from 1989 UK. There is zero evidence at all that it was anywhere else in the world at this time. If you knew what a shuffle dance was you'd recognise this. Yes I am the closest thing to an expert I was dancing these moves in the UK 1989 / 1990 and went to most the hardcore underground raves. Check out the prodigy Everybody in the place pop vid from 1991 too (also UK) the moves are for anyone who knows what they are talking about to see. Is there any such proof it was in Australia at all at this time (on this page) NO. I think we should remove the whole wiki page tbh. What s evidence more than someone who was a big part of the scene and some videos from the era that show the moves well before any other county can on this page. Are you saying if I write a book or webpage that is somehow more evidence than actual film footage from pop videos and an official archive? This page is rubbish and they way that the facts i present are being handled is even worse, especially when you consider that there is far less evidence to support whats presented on the page after you revert my changes!!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiRaver (talk • contribs) 18:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with you on the nuking option: the whole article is written from the point of view of people who took part rather than being encyclopaedic. Spike 'em (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously

I'm not suggesting this is actually the case, but this page looks like it was written at the end of a three day MDMA bender (with plenty of shuffling). I just nuked heaps of meandering opinion, they were cited at best by Youtube videos. This has to be the worst Wikipedia page I've ever seen, it's not encyclopedic, more like a drug addled ode to someones misspent youth. I grew up in Melbourne's inner suburbs in the 1990's - I'm aware that the shuffle was a real thing and it was really popular at the time, but this mythologising it into a major dance style is laughable. Comparing the shuffle to Crip walking is so ridiculous it made me laugh. Placing it in the timeline alongside break-dancing or the UK rave scene is plain silly. It's a simple dance, anyone can do it and that's the appeal, I guess. In my experience people are pretty disparaging about it, it's seen as a joke. Bacondrum (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC)