Talk:Melungeon/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Saponi indians

Capt Tom named specifically a Sapony indian. http://aventfamily.org/taveltr.htm

"and if Capt. Tom was hanged they would carry their wives and children over the Roanoke River and then they would drive the white people and negros as far as James River, and he says that Tony Mack told him that if Pyah was hanged he and the Cotobers would come and take revenge of the English, and he says that Sapony Tom told him if his son Harry Erwin was hanged they would kill you and three or four more Gentlemen and then go off," The original document is held by the Virginia Historical Society, Richmond, VA and will give you a copy of the original. Unless you call the Virginia historical society liars.

"Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt Tom, Isaac, Harry, blind tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being bought before the court for stealing Hogs. , Ordered that their Guns be taken away from them till they are ready to depart of this county, they having declared their intentions to depart this colony within a week." http://www.jgoins.com/old_thomas_collins.htm

Them are the official Government records....can be found at any national archives building. I have plenty more records as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 22:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

To take this alittle further. The Bowling's are the well known descendants of Chief Powhatan of the Powhatan tribe, The Powhatan was the neighbor tribe to the Saponi, The Powhatan lived 4 counties to the right of Louisa county VA. It is also very well known that the recorded Saponi words did in fact have borrwed words from the Powhatan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 22:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Harsh Wording and Selective History

More recent suggestions by amateur researchers as to the Melungeons' ethnic identity include Gypsy, Turkish, Croatian (see Raleigh Colony and Croatan Indians), Arabian and Jewish. There is no evidence that Melungeons themselves ever claimed any of those ancestries. Nor does any creditable historical evidence exist to support such theories. There is ample evidence from the research of David Beers Quinn and Ivor Noel Hume that all the Turks rescued by Drake in the sack of Cartagena were repatriated to their homeland.

I think the above has a subjective undertone and it should be reworded.

Further, let's take a very short look at Jewish history, specifically Sephardic of the Iberian Penninsula in relation to the New World.

http://www.bh.org.il/Communities/Archive/VentaPrieta.asp It is widely assumed that small groups of descendants of crypto-Jews who fled the persecutions of the Spanish Inquisition during colonial times and sought refuge in remote regions of Mexico, where they lived among the native people of the country continued for many generations to keep alive in secret, the remembrance of their Jewish origins. Living and intermarrying with local population brought about their full assimilation, and only rarely a few old Jewish practices and beliefs persisted while their significance was totally forgotten."

...The origins of the modern community of Native Mexican Jews have been the subject of many studies and controversies. The lack of written documentation for most of the colonial period and the early years of the 19th century contributed to the mystery...

1. Take a moment to juxtapose the Melungeons and the Native Mexican Jews. This is to say, learn from history during root cause analysis efforts.

2. The main page states "There is no evidence that Melungeons themselves ever claimed any of those ancestries". True, and likewise Native Mexican Jews do not state their ancestries. To understand why in the case of Native Mexican Jews, first understand the term "Crypto Jew" as well as what occured with inter-marriage over generations by historical example. I do not see "...Melungeons themselves ever claimed..." a qualified statement in excluding Jewish ancestral theories.

3. The term "amateur" is inflamatory and if someone cites a credible source their research skill won't matter. Qualified debate is fair and a condescending statement holds no scientific value to research. Remove "amateur".

http://www.orthohelp.com/geneal/seph_wh2.htm

In 1492 the expulsion edict was announced. Jews had 2 months to leave Spain or embrace Catholicism. No gold or jewels could be taken out of Spain. Catholics were forbidden to receive Jewish property which was therefore confiscated by the state. Thousands of Jews were hurriedly baptized. Others left for North Africa, France or Portugal. Columbus started his journey within 2 days of the expulsion deadline on ships manned largely by conversos.

1. Understand "Conversos". It is a concept and historical fact that lends itself to the concept where people of Jewish origin will not claim they are Jewish and/or lose knowledge of their Jewish heritage in time.

2. Understand the Spanish were first in this movement (1492) and only decades later were followed by the Portuguese. The Melungeon article acknowledges the potential for Portuguese heritage though paradoxically denounces the possibility of Jewish heritage. Parts of well known history are being selectively ignored.

Jrgerber (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The research has generally shown the origin of the people earliest known as Melungeons. There are many highly speculative and fanciful theories, but it's best to use sources that show actual research and results rather than simple speculation. Badagnani (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This is found in the present article: "the Melungeons themselves claimed to be both Indian and 'Portuguese.'" In well known and documented Portuguese history there were many Jews living there. It is an equally unsubstantiated claim to state they were NOT Jewish as is the case in the present article. As you suggest there should be cited sources for research. There is no research provided that demonstrates the Melungeons had no possibility of Jewish roots. Do you agree that this claim is ill founded without sources?

Jrgerber (talk) 09:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The mystery of whether the Melungeons are evident descendants of Spanish and Mexican Jews mixed with American Indians, or Moorish Arabs with mixed African or European roots (i.e. Galicia (Spain) or the small ethnic group related to the Portuguese) found their way to the South Atlantic coasts of North America, remains full of widened skepticism. There are rumors of Melungeons may come from a Central Asian people: the Circassian or "Cherkess" galley slaves, pirates and workers hired by Turkish, later Italian and Spanish naval ships and company traders for the English in the 16th century. The Melungeons as well the Meherrin Indian, Nottoway Indian and the Lumbee Indian peoples of the Carolinas and Virginia are a legacy of such a multi-ethnic diverse settlement of the colonial past in the USA, where at the time the Europeans, Africans, Natives and possibly Arabs, Indians or Malayans had freely mingled together. + 71.102.11.193 (talk) 10:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Removals

"Voluntary marriage with whites" removed without explanation in this edit. Badagnani (talk) 19:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I replaced much of what was removed because the other editor changed the meaning. "Ethnic cleansing" can't be kept up as if it were a well-based conclusion. DeMarce showed how Kennedy's book was lacking in basic methodology of most of the disciplines he brought in, facts and references.--Parkwells (talk) 19:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

As the edit summary noted, I removed it as part of an attempt to change a paragraph from an unsupported argument into something closer to an encyclopedia entry. The change was speedily undone and I'll not try to return it.

That entire paragraph doesn't belong in this article, in my opinion - it's not about Melungeons, it's about people arguing about Melungeons, which is a very different thing. It's a tedious he-said-she-said debate among insiders, of no use to readers.- DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:51, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The material about Kennedy and his claim of "ethnic cleansing" was not mine. I'd be perfectly willing to delete everything but the last paragraph in that section, which at least discusses census classifications and performance of whiteness. If Kennedy and ethnic cleansing stay, then the facts against it have to stay, in my opinion. There are too many wild, unsubstantiated claims of origin and history floating around.--Parkwells (talk) 20:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur.Verklempt (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Bria Dela-veche

is of indian black melungeon mixture but took most of the black in her —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandhuri (talk • contribs) 21:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Who's Melungeon?

Here is a question for you all. I am part White, Native American, and African American. Since I am tri-racial, I am Melungeon. However, my family is not of the "Melungeon People" of the South and other areas. We were not members of any melungeon tribes. Am I Melungeon? Please help. I have become a member of the tribe called, "Black Indians," due to my heritage. For now, I refer to myself as "tri-racial," until I find the truth. Thank you. 75.145.74.209 (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

You're lucky to know that much about your heritage and to find a way to embrace most of it. All tri-racial people are not Melungeon, however. In fact, DNA testing is showing that most Melungeons are proving to be overwhelmingly European and sub-Saharan African in ancestry, which is in accordance with the historic evidence, as documented by Paul Heinegg in his Free African Americans of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Delaware and Maryland. Melungeon originally referred to a specific group of people with certain surnames who had settled in particular areas of KY and TN for generations. It does not refer to everyone of mixed-race ancestry. There are many more people of tri-racial ancestry than those groups identified by certain nicknames in the 18th and 19th century.

• The historian Henry Louis Gates, Jr. in his new book In Search of Our Roots: How 19 Extraordinary African Americans Reclaimed Their Past, New York: Crown Publishers, 2009, pp.20-21, notes that geneticists have found that:
• 5 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent Native American ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent, could be made up of smaller amounts of more distant ancestry);
• 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent European ancestry;
• 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one grandparent); and
• 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one parent).

Americans of mostly European ancestry have the following mixtures:

• 2.7 percent of European Americans have at least 12.5 percent Native American ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent); and
• Less than one percent of European Americans have at least 12.5 percent West African ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent).

In part this reflects the great waves of immigration from Europe in the 19th and early 20th century, when millions more Europeans arrived.--Parkwells (talk) 13:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Mythology of Pocahontas and the Cherokee Princess ancestry syndrome

• Cherokee_heritage_groups#Individual_recognition
• http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/miller200601271228.asp
• http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-giago/claiming-indian-heritage-_b_83641.html
• http://www.flynnfiles.com/archives/american_scene2005/fake_indians.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catterick (talk • contribs) 13:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't list more links on this topic - it's off-topic, not the subject of the article.--Parkwells (talk) 12:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Parkwells, the links are relevant to the formation of Melungeons and tri-racial isolates. Melungeons are portrayed to hold a mysterious link to more African or other racial ancestry, if they can't qualify as "Native American" and lack a strong cultural Native American identity despite the mythology of Melungeons are lost tribes of Cherokees or Shawnees stranded in the hills or valleys of Appalachia for 300 years. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

There is NO proof this is a myth!! You can correctly listed as theory (theories). Please use this term to prevent insult to the information that is given on this subject. And I agree this is off-topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.73.221 (talk) 13:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Honest Injuns

John J. Miller, "Honest injun? The incidence of fake Indians is almost epidemic", National Review, March 28, 2005 70.171.239.21 (talk) 04:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Added article title and author, publisher--Parkwells (talk) 12:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Meluncans

Turkish lineage theory is well and alive. Contrary to one of the editor's claims, there are Meluncans who do make that assertion. I can dig up articles and interviews. Some have visited Turkey, and especially near Izmir, Cesme which was home to much of the seasoned Ottoman Navy sailors and captains. There may even be a Meluncan monument there. In any case, at the time, North Africa was under Ottoman control and it was not Spanish who recruited there but Turks. Some of these sailors eneded up as prisoners on the galleons and vice versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.156.90 (talk) 13:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

If the Melungeons were Turkish why did they say they were Portuguese? Was there some reason they would have been ashamed to be Turkish? Seems like if they were Turkish they would have been proud of their ancestry and said they were Turkish? They said they were Portuguese who had mixed with the Indians and then the whites and the blacks, they claimed a lot of ancestries there, but no Turkish. Documenter08 (talk) 00:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Melungeon may be a corrupted word for "Melayam" or "Malayan" to identicate the possibility of South Asian and Southeast Asian origins. In the 16th to 18th centuries, a scant number of Indians and Malaysians came to the British Isles and North America, often as employed sailors, indentured servants and sexual partners of white European men. There's a slight chance of the descendants of any inter-racial mixture of Malayan/East Indian and white/black American genes resulted in the creation of the Melungeon people. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 20:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Melungeon may be, and most likely is, exactly what they have been saying it is for the last 120 years. The French word meaning to mix. These people who were called Melungeons were a 'mix' of the remnant tribes of Native Americans. "There's a slight chance of the descendants of any inter-racial mixture of Malayan/East Indian and white/black American genes resulted in the creation of the" Cherokee People also. And they are called Native Americans still. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Documenter08 (talk • contribs) 12:09, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Genetics claims

This piece now contains this statement: "More recently, a large DNA genetic test concluded that Melungeons are of Iberian (mostly Iberian Jewish) descent, though this is debated." Given the diverse mixture of haplogroups present in the Melungeon population, this statement about descent is going to be very hard to support with evidence. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The source is very haphazard. I've done enough family history research to know this material is not sufficient for the claims and have deleted it. In every case the author seems to be choosing a Jewish ancestor, and we don't have enough information to see if we agree. As an example, Yates is a Welsh name, but here, the author claims it is more likely a Jewish name. This is a real skewing of evidence and material; the DNA results are not presented, but only the author's conclusions. Based on the content, I do not consider this a valid source. It certainly does not agree at all with the results of the DNA project led by Jack Goins, nor with the historical data researched and published by Paul Heinegg (work for which he received a major award) and Virginia DeMarce.--Parkwells (talk) 00:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Completely agree with your deletion. The claims are far-fetched. MarmadukePercy (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I also note that editors are adding speculation (some of it original research) about where the various haplogroups in the Melungeon population could have come from. MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I was the one who added it. It seemed reliable to me. They did DNA research and got the result of "Jewish." Other than that, it seems to be in line with Kennedy's research, i.e., that they are of Spanish/Portuguese decent. Please reconsider. Plus the people who conducted the tests are called "Dr." and they have written books (you can Google them if want to). So they must know what they're talking about, right? And, according to them, they found ancestor melungeons burried in Jewish cemeteries in Virginia and Sephardic Jews did come to the Southern United States during the colonial era. Sbrianhicks (talk) 01:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

The Drs. you refer to are PhDs with doctorates in Communication and Marketing. No Geneticists, physical anthropologists or medical doctors among them. Emuchick (talk) 02:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

That material on Jewish ancestry was extremely weak, as people could see who have done valid family research. Also, Kennedy's research has been criticized for not conforming to professional standards; he picked and chose info he wanted to use. He did not establish Spanish/Portuguese origins, which would necessarily have been only one of the contributing European lines. People are grasping at exceptions, rather than looking where the majority of evidence is, as established by Heinegg and DeMarce. Heinegg did not look only at census records, by the way, but many kinds of records - tax records, etc.Parkwells (talk) 17:42, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

In supporting these statements DNA testing among those claiming Melungeon descent is a dead-end to a degree. DNA test on Scottish citizens show Iberian celtic, North African, Eastern Europe, even Turkish. DNA tests doesn't prove Melungeon descent. And DNA alone doesn't prove a singular race in a individual since they are vast ancestral makeup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.73.221 (talk) 13:31, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Francis Gary Powers

This piece states that U-2 pilot Francis Gary Powers was of Melungeon descent. Is there any proof of this? MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Brent Kennedy assertions

An editor has removed references to Kennedy's assertions of "ethnic cleansing" and responses by professional historians. The reason I think it is useful to include this material in this article is because Kennedy has achieved considerable publicity, but there are reputable scholars who dispute his claims and have other evidence based on fact. Parkwells (talk) 15:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of census material

Editors have cited census data in OR (original research) in this article to examine the presence of some surnames in particular counties at various times. Editors are supposed to rely on published, valid, third-party material, not publish their own findings or try to make their own cases here.Parkwells (talk) 12:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how this supports your claim of "inappropriate" if it supports the editors info, if that info is a legal document, along with other documents that are considered related to which said editor is trying to publish. Your claim would invalidate all wiki rules of submissions then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.73.221 (talk) 13:39, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources

When editors use material which they have found on the Melungeon Website (or others), which has a wide collection of articles from a variety of sources, the full information for an inline citation needs to be given: author, article/book title, publisher, date, etc. The website is not sufficient.Parkwells (talk) 12:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Concurr. Links on the Internet change; links to articles on websites (even on gov't websites) may disappear when websites are reorganized or archived, but if article author, "title", publication, date are known, the articles may be found and links corrected. This should be standard citation style. Naaman Brown (talk) 14:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Terrific article

Editors should read this in External links: Roberta J. Estes, Jack H. Goins, Penny Ferguson, Janet Lewis Crain Melungeons, a Multi-Ethnic Population, 2011- filled with a combination of facts from records and DNA testing. Impressive studies that need to be incorporated in this article. Does away with a lot of myth.Parkwells (talk) 02:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

New study

Several articles in various newspapers today about a recent study that suggests a mixed European/Sub-Saharan African origin: [1], [2], [3]. Bms4880 (talk) 22:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The piece is based on the study in the Journal of Genetic Genealogy, referenced by the person who posted the immediately preceding section. Both a pdf and a html version are available on-line at Melungeons, A Multi-Ethnic Population - pdf version and at Melungeons, A Multi-Ethnic Population - html version. They are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 License. Irish Melkite (talk) 16:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: The above links are all for the same AP article by Travis Loller, dated May 24, 2012. The results of the DNA study are consistent with the award-winning work of Paul Heinegg, as detailed in his Free African Americans in Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland and Delaware (1995-2010), which is available free online at www.freeafricanamericans.com. He found that most of the free people of color on the VA and NC frontiers in censuses of 1790-1810 could be traced back to descendants of African Americans free in colonial Virginia; they were mostly born of unions between white women (free or indentured servants) and African men, enslaved, indentured or freed. The slave laws of the period incorporated the principle of partus sequitur ventrem - children took the status of their mother, so were free when born to white women. (Illegitimate mixed-race children were indentured for years to ensure the communities did not have to support them.) His extensive research in local records, court records, indentures, deeds, etc. led him to document hundreds of such families and arrive at his conclusion. This material about the origins of Melungeons has been included in this article before, and some editors keep trying to remove it, in favor of various myths.Parkwells (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Great job updating the article. Bms4880 (talk) 20:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Why in the world is the cite to a news article, rather than to the peer-reviewed study in the Journal of Genetic Genealogy on which the news article is based - and which is available in full, on-line, in two formats, and under a Creative Commons license? Irish Melkite (talk) 07:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Delete irrelevant material

The following has been deleted, as it applies to a different group than those with Melungeon surnames and originating in Melungeon territory: "Richard Allen Carlson has researched the tri-racial group known as the "Salyersville Indians" in Magoffin and Clark counties, Kentucky. This is a different population than the Melungeons. He found the following:

"The historical and anthropological evidence ... suggests that in general a significant portion (though not necessarily all) of the ancestry of the Magoffin and Clark counties, Kentucky and Highland County, Ohio enclaves [of mixed-race people] originated principally from an admixture of Native American, African Americans and Whites in the early colonial period (from the late 17th century until about 1800) and secondarily from an admixture with presently known Native American groups in the mid-Atlantic coast region." (Note: This source is specific to its definition; it does not refer to the ancestors of Melungeons, who first settled in Hawkins County, Tennessee.)"

Parkwells (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Salyersville Indians

The Salyersville Indians; Perkins, Collins, Gibsons, and others are from the CORE group of Melungeons named in the MELUNGEON DNA PROJECT. They are represented in the DNA Study and also in the recently published article and represent a large chunk of the 'alleged' Sub Saharan DNA. While their ancestors carried a E haplogroup they are identified as Indians throughout their history by their neighbors, census takers [Government document] agents for Guion Miller etc. Documenter08 (talk) 11:16, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

DNA evidence: Relaible sourcing and OR

I propose removing these two paragraphs from Melungeon#DNA_testing, due to sourcing and OR concerns (as I've briefly summarized on the RS Noticeboard).

I also suggest incorporating into the page this secondary source (PDF) which provides an interesting perspective and could help reinforce the sourcing. —MistyMorn (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sources, OR, personal attacks

I've taken the new sources to WP:RSN. Claiming that a chart backs something up is original research - see WP:NOR. And vandalism claims in edits are really a poor way to work on an article. Dougweller (talk) 10:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Now I'm on the attack list, being accused on my Talk page of racism (for working on articles related to African Americans, which I've been doing to correct WP bias, by the way) and edit wars, and advised to use this Talk page rather than revert (which I didn't do). This followed my writing on the IP Talk page, noting that the Melungeon text already supported some Portuguese ancestry among the Melungeon ancestors, as well as northern European and African (as noted also by DNA evidence). Also said it was not clear what point the IP editor was trying to make, and that he could not draw conclusions between two reports (as OR) which they did not make themselves. Suggested the IP editor use this Talk page to discuss the issues, as editors might be able to help. It's not even clear what the point is - because he thinks some haplotypes are the same, all the ancestors must be Portuguese? That's not the conclusion of the article published in the Journal of GG.Parkwells (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

It appears another IP editor 76.8.174.113 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is seeking to use the blogs and forums to re-insert the information 4 more times, even when directed to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 126#Using non-peered reviewed sources for genetics discussing the sources. Heiro 15:06, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Famous People of Melungeon Descent

I know that it is necessary for people to get this officially confirmed, but in a 2012 interview with comedian Marc Maron, singer Fiona Apple told him that her father, actor Brandon Maggart told her that he was of melungeon descent, but that he didn't know much about it. Apple said she was very interested in learning more about it. I have the feeling that a lot of people will be rushing to Wikipedia to find out more because of her mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Olamina (talk • contribs) 22:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing problem

Not reliable sources per this addition:

• Eupedia-ForumGenetics & AnthropologyGenetic Genealogy & HaplogroupsY-DNA Haplogroups : Forums and blogs are not Wikipedia:Reliable Sources.
• newscientist.com : Spanish Inquisition left genetic legacy in Iberia Mentions nothing about the Melungeons or Goins, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH
• ourfamilyorigins.com User generated content, also does not mention Melungeons or Goins, so also OR and SYNTH
• 23andMe Other Wikipedia articles are user generated content and are not considered RS
• the-melungeons.blogspot.com : Blogs are not RS
• rootsweb.ancestry.com : archived forums and blogsposts are still not RS
• familytreedna.com : Does not mention Goins or Melungeons let alone back the conclusions you cited to this, this is deceptive violates WP:PRIMARY and WP:SYNTH at best.

So, you see what is wrong with your additions and what policies they violate? Do not use these sources again, please. If you insert this info again sourced to these links, I will take this to the appropriate admin boards. Find actual sources, see WP:RELIABLE for what defines a reliable source here(for about the 6 or 7th time now). Heiro 07:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Heironymous. Nothing has changed since the last time this material was added to this article...the quality of the references has not improved and spurious claims are still being made. Please, whoever is insisting on adding this spuriously-sourced information again, before you try one more time, refer first to reliable sources and referencing for beginners and try to understand what other editors are trying to get across to you.

• Forum postings or material from user-submitted websites (such as other Wikipedia articles or Facebook/MySpace/IMDb/etc.) are not considered to be reliable sources.

If the information cannot be found in a published reliable source, then the information cannot be added to a Wikipedia article, no matter how much anyone might believe the information to be true. Belief is not enough, verifiability is. Shearonink (talk) 08:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

DNA RESULTS

"Several authors have suggested that the Melungeons were lying about their Indian nationality just to hide their known African ancestors. In a recent DNA study, Wise University biology professor Dr Kevin Jones analyzed these samples. The results of those from this study showed them to be multiracial which included Native American. " Jack Goins http://www.jgoins.com/emhistory.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.54 (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

From Anatolia to Appalachia: A Turkish-American Dialogue By Joseph M. Scolnick, N. Brent Kennedy http://books.google.com/books?id=WIaFgcnViZsC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=Kingsport,+Tennessee,+June+20,+2002+-+Some+of+the+veil+of+mystery+surrounding+the+%22mysterious%22+Melungeons+was+lifted&source=bl&ots=k5Jv6h9rqg&sig=TNhTK1UfcEmI7vlkH5Eyifl7BrI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qL27UOSlEYfm8QTjsYD4Dw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Kingsport%2C%20Tennessee%2C%20June%2020%2C%202002%20-%20Some%20of%20the%20veil%20of%20mystery%20surrounding%20the%20%22mysterious%22%20Melungeons%20was%20lifted&f=false

"The DNA results announced today confirmed that the Melungeons have European, African, and Native American ancestry, as well as genetic similarities with populations in Turkey and northern India. More surprising, however, is the fact that some of these Turkish- and northern Indian- like sequences have been passed through the Melungeons' maternal lines, indicating that their overseas ancestors included not only male sailors and explorers, but females as well... Previous researchers had assumed that European males intermarried with Native Americans and African-Americans to produce the Melungeons. Although Native and African genes are definitely a part of the Melungeon genetic mix..."It's comparatively straightforward to link particular sequences to particular ethnic groups and different Continental areas of the world," he noted, "and the majority of those Melungeon-derived sequences were European in origin. Within those European samples, though, there is significant diversity, and some seem to reflect areas outside the traditional northern European sphere. While the Melungeons are predominantly European in their genetic backgrounds, they are indeed tri-racial. "The appears to be a small percentage of both Native American and African-American sequences in there, too," Jones stated, "although they are certainly both in the minority. They' re both in there in about equal levels of representation as well." .... "To date we've found no sequences that can be definitively traced back to uniquely Portuguese sequences. That doesn't mean that they don't exist. ..." - The Associated Press Kingsport, Tennessee, June 20, 2002 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.54 (talk) 20:53, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Latest comprehensive study published by University College London on Portugal Y-Haplogroups. By Beleza, et al., 2006. Contributors: Universidade de Porto, Universidad de Santiago de Compostela, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Oxford University.

The new statistics are:

R1b = 59.9% R1a = 2% I1 = 6.1% I2 = 1.5% E-M35 (E1b1b) = 12.5% J1 = 3.4% J2 = 7.0% G = 5.5% K = 1.6% Other = 0.5%

Melungeon DNA Project results: 80 participants R1b 38 -- 47.5%-- e1b1a 27 -- 33.75%-- R1a 6 -- 7.5%-- I1 3 -- 3.75%-- a 2 -- 2.5%-- eb1b 2 -- 2.5%-- Q1a3a1 1 -- 1.25%-- I2 1 --1.25%--

To Compare: Portugal - R1b = 59.9% Melungeon - R1b = 47.5% Portugal - R1a = 2% Melungeon - R1a =7.5% Portugal - I1 = 6.1% Melungeon- I1 = 3.75% Portugal - I2 = 1.5% Melungeon - I2 =1.25% Portugal - E-M35 (E1b1b) = 12.5% Melungeon - eb1b = 2.5%

So 82 percent of Portugal shares the same haplo groups as the melungeons as far as y-dna. As far as the women...Roberta Estes stated the Melungeon women all had haplo group H. Which of course is 25.5 percent of Portugal women. So on male line Melungeons match 82 percent of Portugal men and melungeon women match 25.5 percent of portugal women.

"These two, Vardy Collins and Buck Gibson, were the had and source of the Melungeons in Tennessee. With the cunning of their Cherokee Ancestor, they planned and executed a scheme by which they were enabled to "set up for themselves" in the almost unbroken Territory of North Carolina. " "there really being a Portuguese branch among the tribes" "So we have the four races or representatives among, as they then began to be called, the Melungeons; namely, the Indians, the English, the Portuguese, and the African. Each is clearly distinct and easily recognized even to the present day. " Will Allen Dromgoole The Arena ; v. 3 (May, 1891), p. 749-751. http://www.historical-melungeons.com/meltree.html "The Malungeon Tree and its Four Branches "What I can tell you is this: unless SNP testing is done to pinpoint a terminal branch, Y-DNA will not specifically identify Portuguese or any other nationality. It reveals ethnic origins. There's no such thing as a "Portuguese" or "Melungeon" test. The R1b1 group includes about 40% of Western Europe, which would include Spain and Portugal. However, the Iberian Peninsula also had waves of invaders from Northern Africa. The Moors ruled there for over 800 years so they left their genetic stamp, which is the origin of the E1b1 haplogroup in Spaini and Portugal. Only through SNP testing can specific clusters be identified. Then the final group suspected of being Melungeon is Native American, and that Q1 haplogroup is just barely represented, but that's not unusual because we just don't have many men who have a direct paternal line in the Q haplogroup.

Again, haplogroups only show broad geographic areas of origin. SNP testing is required to pinpoint more specific locations and to do that you have to have enough participants to be able to group. " Family tree DNA on the melungeon project

"September 5th 1671 The three gentlemen bore a commission from Major-general Wood "for the finding out tile ebbing and flowing of the Waters on the other side of the Mountains in order to the discovery of the South Sea." They struck off due west along a trail that was evidently already familiar, and having five horses made rapid progress. On the fourth day 'they reached the Sapony villages, one of which Lederer had visited the year before. They were "very joyfully and kindly received with firing of guns and plenty of provisions." **They picked up a Sapony guide to show them to the Totero village by "a nearer way than usual," and were about to leave when overtaken by a reinforcement of seven Appomattox Indians sent them by Wood. They sent back Mr. Thomas Wood's worn out horse by a **Portuguese servant of General Wood's whom they had found in the village**, and pushed on to the Hanahaskie "town," some twenty-five miles west by north, on an island in the Staunton River. Here Mr. Thomas Wood was left, dangerously ill. The Expedition of Batts and Fallam: A Journey from Virginia to beyond the Appalachian Mountains, September, 1671. From Annals of Southwest Virginia, 1769-1800.

"although there is fairly good evidence that Collins is a Saponi family name" "In the 1760’s we pick up Collins, Gibson, and Bunch in Orange County, North Carolina which was just immediately to the west of Granville County. These families are listed in the records as Mulattoes. In the Carolinas in the 1700’s and 1800’s Mulatto meant a person with one white parent and one non-white parent, either Indian or black. " "By 1810 these families were beginning to come together in the present day northern Hancock County, Tennessee and southern Lee County, Virginia on a mountain known as Newman’s Ridge, near Sneedville, Tennessee and Blackwater Virginia. This became the core community of these Granville families in the west by 1810. In this community one finds that Collins, Gibson, Mullins, and Goings are predominate and most numerous family names" Robert K Thomas Cherokee communities of the south http://works.bepress.com/robert_thomas/24/

there was several portugesse the english brought to Hatteras island on each trip. a few examples are, Enrique Lopez, Portuguese merchant Diego Menendez de Valdes (He may be spainish) Alonzo Cornieles, Captain of the Santa Maria of San Vicente (spainish or Portugesse) Edward Gorges Master Bremige Master Vincent Captain John Copeltope (I'm sure at least one of them 4 was portugesse) Simon Fernandez, chief pilot (Portugesse man) Iohn Gostigo (Probally spainish or portugesse) This would be the founding of England to America

"The Mattamuskeets were, as indicated previously, joined by Indians from Roanoke and Hatteras Island by 1761. The names of these individuals were not identified on any of the extant deeds. This could mean the Indians from those areas moved to the Mattamuskeet area at a period later than that covered by the available records. Individuals with Mattamuskeet surnames do not occur in the Hyde County Records from 1761 to 1792. In fact, there is reference to only a single Indian during that time. This reference appeared in the Hyde County Court Minutes of 1765. It called for William Gibbs to show cause why an Indian woman named Cati Collins should not be set free. It is not clear from the reference whether William Gibbs was holding Cati Collins as an apprentice or a slave. The outcome of the show cause order could not be determined due to a break in the County Court Minutes from 1765 to 1767 (see appendix 35). Cati Collins may have been a member of one of the groups that moved to the area from Roanoke and Hatteras Islands. " Mattamuskeet documents Carolina Algonkian Project http://www.ncgenweb.us/hyde/ethnic/algonqin/matta4.htm

DNA results of the proven founders and first melungeons: 52337 Vardeman Collins Unknown Origin R1a1a ------- ---------87373 Irish Jim Mullins of Hawkins Co. TN, b. c. 1780 Unknown Origin R1b1a2-------- ----------87768 Shepherd Gibson d. 1842 Hawkins Co. TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2------- ---------69729 David Denham, b. 1754, Louisa County, VA. Unknown Origin I1-----------

"These two, Vardy Collins and Buck Gibson, were the had and source of the Melungeons in Tennessee. With the cunning of their Cherokee Ancestor, they planned and executed a scheme by which they were enabled to "set up for themselves" in the almost unbroken Territory of North Carolina. " "there really being a Portuguese branch among the tribes" "So we have the four races or representatives among, as they then began to be called, the Melungeons; namely, the Indians, the English, the Portuguese, and the African. Each is clearly distinct and easily recognized even to the present day. " Will Allen Dromgoole — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.54 (talk) 01:55, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I've cut a quote as it was too long - as a rule of thumb, no more than 220 words from any one source. I've also found a link to the text of The Melungeon Tree and its Four Branches". Dougweller (talk) 07:28, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Sept. 4. We set forth and about two of the clock arriv’d at the Sapiny Indian town. We traveled south and by west course till about even(ing) and came to the Sapony’s west. Here we were joyfully and kindly received with firing of guns and plenty of provisions. We here hired a Sepiny Indian to be our guide towards the Teteras, a nearer way than usual. Sept. 5. Just as we were ready to take horse and march from the Sapiny’s about seven of the clock in the Morning we heard some guns go off from the other side of the River. They were seven Apomatack Indians sent by Major General Wood to accompany us in our voyage. We hence sent back a horse belonging to Mr. Thomas Wood, which was tired, by a Portugal, belonging to Major General Wood, whom we here found. About eleven of the clock we set forward and that night came to the town of the Hanathaskies which we judge to be twenty five miles from the Sapenys, they are lying west and by north in an island on the Sapony River2 rich land. http://www.tngenweb.org/pre1796/batts-1671.html www.as.wvu.edu/wvhistory/documents/001.pdf

This is also in American Anthropologist, Volume 9 http://books.google.com/books?id=940nAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=Hanathaskies&source=bl&ots=q4cuK-Musv&sig=2kvjnbTo38_JQCbsZlL4cjQTJfU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6n3CUIa3Io_29gTZ4oHYCg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hanathaskies&f=false

"In a recent exchange with Paul Heinegg, author of Free African-Americans of Virginia and North Carolina, I painstakingly revealed the documents which proved the section of his book about William Goings, Sr. of Moore County, North Carolina, born c.a. 1749, was incorrect. I pointed to documents in court records, community witnesses and testimonies which relate that William Goings, Sr. was the illegitimate son of Elizabeth Goings, a white woman and John Harmon, a native of Portugal. Heinegg refused to correct the information in his book, claiming all the witnesses in 1882 and 1884 in Randolph County court lied. " Cyndie Goins Hoelscher, author/historian/public speaker from Corpus Christi, Texas, is the author of "Judging the Moore County Goings/Goyens/Goins family of Moore County, North Carolina," in Carolina Genesis: Beyond the Color Line." http://cghoelscher.backintyme.com/?p=11 http://cyndiesmusings.blogspot.com/p/spanishportuguesenative-american.html http://www.amazon.com/Carolina-Genesis-Beyond-Color-Line/dp/093947932X — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.54 (talk) 17:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

"The Associated Press mistakenly released the story of the DNA study a day early. We regret that, after two years of hard work, Dr. Kevin Jones was not permitted to break the news of his study himself. I think the story missed the important news: that women were a part of the original Turkish, Mediterranean, and northern Indian population that came to America. We've always heard the stories about shipwrecked sailors or explorers being the source of our overseas genes; it's now obvious that these genes came, at least in part, from family units of men and women who were attempting to establish themselves in a new land. As the DNA study shows, they succeeded." Statement by Wayne Winkler, President of the Melungeon Heritage Association in reference to the initial 2000 DNA results' press release.

Why would the DOCTOR who actually conducted the 2000 DNA study not be permitted to tell the public about HIS FINDINGS? When the next Associated press release was made in 2012....The DNA experts who conducted the testing was left out of the articles and people who ARE NOT genetic experts or involved in the DNA testing process stated stuff the DNA experts clearly did not say.

"I think the story missed the important news: that women were a part of the original Turkish, Mediterranean, and northern Indian population" Why was this completely left out of the 2012 articles? In 2012 the same DNA test results was used yet once the DNA testors was not allowed to be a part of the articles on the test results it becomes....."the women was white Europeans and ship wrecks was a fantasy".

This would be like Spencer Wells doing his world wide DNA testing project and then when the results are to be made public, national geographic denying Spencer Wells access to telling the public his findings. Which we all know did not happen since Spence Wells is the main spokesman for the World wide DNA project since he is the DNA expert.

Other interesting things is...why was the two past presidents of the Melungeon Heritage Association (the Sponsors to the DNA testing projects) having their comments on what the DNA results omitted from the recent 2012 media articles? Both past presidents stated the women's DNA results did not show they was simply "white european women" and they stated the men's DNA results did not show just european and african...in fact they stated the African aspect was exactly EQUAL to the Native American aspect.

"The DNA results announced today confirmed that the Melungeons have European, African, and Native American ancestry, as well as genetic similarities with populations in Turkey and northern India. The results were announced today at Fourth Union, a Melungeon conference in Kingsport, Tennessee sponsored by the Melungeon Heritage Association (MHA). Dr. Kevin Jones, a biologist at the University of Virginia's Collegeat Wise, conducted the study. The presence of Turkish and northern Indian haplotypes within the mitochondrial DNA samples taken from modern-day Melungeons indicates that women of European/Asian origin were a part of the original mixture that made up the Melungeon ancestry." Associated press 2000 (aka the original press release by the ACTUAL Biologist who tested the DNA).

Also overlooked from the 2012 press articles....is that Jack Goins (the man in the articles) was a Goins on his male line only thru Step family which we all know step parents do not have genetic relationships with their step kids. Also as Jack Goins has stated before....his female lines was only "assumed" melungeons with no actual documentation to the Melungeons. There also has been no documentation showing ANY of his ancestors even lived on Newman's ridge. So why would his DNA be relavent to a Genetic study to the Melungeons of Newman's ridge? If a Federally recognized Cherokee family adopts a kid from ethiopia...could the Ethopian's DNA be used in a genetic study of the federal cherokee? NO. Johnny Depp assumes he has some cherokee ancestry...but it has yet to be proved...could his DNA be used in a genetic study of the federal cherokee? NO. So how could Jack Goins' DNA be used to prove who the Melungeons of Newman's ridge are? It can't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.164.95 (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

" Hopefully locating and indexing the Hawkins County records 1795-1850 will answer some of these questions and I can remove this ‘maybe Melungeon’ label from my Goins family."---Jack Goins" http://www.jgoins.com/maybe_melungeon.htm

"I don't know if they were called Melungeons. I know that Zachariah and Lewis Minor mother was Elizabeth Goins a sister to my ggg Zephaniah Goins and as Jarvis said they were called Melungeon because of the color of their skin and they were enumerated free colored." Jack Goins on his family ancestry. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Melungeon/2011-08/1313625686

"Jack Goins poses with a photo dated to have been taken in 1898 of his step-great-great grandfather George Washington Goins, who died in 1817," http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/05/melungeon_dna.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.164.95 (talk) 06:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

"You write about Jordan Gibson, yet you omitted the one DNA source from his line. Why? Was it because his haplotype was I1 and not African? " "The genealogies are strung together with no documentation. For instance they write the sons of Gilbert Gibson; Jordan, Gideon and George went to Sandy Bluffs when the records show Gilberts sons on tax list and court records in Louisa County. The Gideon and Jordan Gibson at Sandy Bluffs were clearly different people, born at different times. " "I know of no documentation showing the Collins family from the Pee Dee River related to Vardy Collins or the Collins families on Newmans Ridge. There are also no records that I know of that show Jacob Wolf and James Mooney of Baxter County, Arkansas were ever in Hawkins/Hancock County. These are just a few of the inaccuracies and misinformation from this report," The War on Melungeons http://dnaconsultants.com/announcements/the-war-on-melungeons — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.164 (talk) 06:37, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Roberta estes who was behind the JOGG article states she has only been researching this stuff 5 years....

"This is an unbelievable amount of work. I’ve been at it almost 5 years now. Much of my early work was in documenting mixed race migrations and historical reading and references documenting early tribal locations." Roberta estes http://nativeheritageproject.com/what-is-the-native-heritage-project/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.182.9 (talk) 04:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The recent book by N. Brent Kennedy is a general interest work, not an academic work, but anecdotal. It does not have footnotes and sources. His first work on his claimed Turkish connection was strongly criticized at the time (as shown in the history of this article) by scholars for failures in historical practice, incorrect use of genealogical data and tracing of family, and similar problems. Kennedy controlled the individuals whose DNA was tested by Dr. Kevin Jones, rather than having a sample agreed to independently by expert researchers. This was not public information. The DNA study was criticized at the time for its limitations and was not published in a peer-review journal. As far as I know, it has never been peer-reviewed, so others csnnot confirm, try to reproduce, or disagree with the results. The DNA study coordinated by Jack Goins has had a more transparent process that conforms to scientific studies.Parkwells (talk) 13:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually the Family tree DNA company does not go by "chain of custody" procedure which is required by law for any genetics to be used as legal evidence. Brent Kennedy actually does not trace to any Newman's ridge families either....just like Jack Goins. Over 50 percent of the people in the Family tree DNA project is Self claimed Melungeons and anyone who researches those people named in the project will see they are self claimed. To date there has only been two DNA studies which included only people from Newman's ridge and it also followed the Chain of Custody procedure. The only reason Valentine Collins got included in the Family tree study was because at the time they thought Valentine may have been the brother to Vardy Collins, yet when the results came back...he was NOT the brother to Vardy. Valentine Collins nor any of his family was ever called Melungeons and they never lived on Newman's ridge. Valentine Collins got married in Virginia..had kids...then moved to Hawkins county for 5 years. Brent Kennedy's family never lived in Tennessee...his family and ancestors always lived in Virginia. Wayne Winkler supposedly claims the "Bunch" family for his ancestry. You always see Wayne Winkler in articles about Melungeons yet find anywhere in them articles where he actually discusses who his ancestors are, you never even see any pictures of Wayne Winkler's family. Your more than Welcomed to find any where Wayne Winkler actually discusses his family by name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.195 (talk) 02:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Family Tree DNA project

I am going to brake down the DNA project on a individual level since it is discussed so much and so much confusion s being wrote about it. This is mashing some of the writing together and I am not entirely sure how to unmash them. I am hoping this section will help people better understand the DNA project.

Here is information on Valentine Collins: http://www.historical-melungeons.com/valcollins.html http://shaybo-therisingtide.blogspot.com/2011/05/descendants-of-valentine-collins.html

1. VALENTINE1 COLLINS1 was born 1769 in Wilkes, NC, USA1. He married DICEY.

Children of VALENTINE COLLINS and DICEY are: 2. i. OBEDIAH2 COLLINS, b. 1804; d. 1839, Magoffin, Kentucky, USA. 3. ii. JOSHUA COLLINS, b. 1805, Hawkins County, Tennessee; d. February 01, 1854, Johnson County, Kentucky. 4. iii. DAVID COLLINS, b. 1807, Kentucky.

As you can see above..Valentine was only in Hawkins county, Tenn 2 years at this time.

"The 1810 Hawkins County Tax list for Puncheon Camp Valley included; Benjamin Collins, Vardemon Collins, James Collins, Henry Collins, Jordan Gibson, Obedah Goodman, Jordan Goodman, John Fields, Yearby Gibson, Shepard Gibson, Charles Gibson, Tiry Gibson, Royal Gibson, Valentine Collins, and Jesse Gibson.

1811: State of Tennessee, Hawkins County vs Valentine Collins, Benjamin Collins, Jordan Gibson and Charles Gibson on a plea of debt by merchant John M. Preston May 1, 1811-Then on the 14th day of June 1811 they were summons to Rogersville to pay John M. Preston eight pounds and thirteen shillings on beef cattle by the first day of August next. Valentine Collins owed 2 pounds 15 shillings, Benjamin Collins 1 pound 18 shillings, Jordan Gibson 1 pound 16 shillings and Charles Gibson 2 pound, 4 shillings totaling $8 pounds, 13 shillings. (Hawkins County Loose Records.)

1812: Delinquent tax list in Claiborne County 1812 "Thomas Gibson, Sherod Gibson and Valentine Collins". Appears like they moved there from Hawkins and then moved from Claiborne owing taxes . (Tennessee State Library & Archives)

Tennessee • 24 April 1816--- by Tenn. Grant No, 3770 Absalom Looney received 150 acres; also 44 acres on north side of Clinch River on Newman Ridge on the waters of Panther Creek including the place where Valentine Collins formerly lived.

There were ten Collins families on the 1820 census of Floyd County, KY. Valentine, Bradley, and Meredith were the only Collins’ listed as FPC. "

http://www.jgoins.com/valentine_collins_timeline.htm

Again you do not see Melungeon used for Valentine Collins family. Then from 1810-1812 Valentine is back in Tennesse...but no record of Valentine Collins back in Tennessee after 1812. There is no marriages of Valentine Collins family to any recorded Melungeon families. Now if you look on the Melungeon DNA project site you will clearly see Valentine Collins was no relation to Vardy Collins. 11280 Valentine Collins Unknown Origin E1b1a8a 246966 Vardemon Collins b.1764 and d. 1850 United States R1b1a2 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/coremelungeon/default.aspx?section=yresults

Then if you go to Jack Goins...who told newspapers recently that he was a Melungeon...yet if you go to his own website he says this about his family "Hopefully locating and indexing the Hawkins County records 1795-1850 will answer some of these questions and I can remove this ‘maybe Melungeon’ label from my Goins family. " http://www.jgoins.com/maybe_melungeon.htm So why was Jack Goins' family DNA put in this project if he states he has no proof his Family even was Melungeons? He claims he spent 40 years doing research..surely in 40 years he could have found some proof....so 40 years and no proof found...yet he still included his families' DNA in this project to say who the Melungeons was.

Now if you look closer at Jack Goins' website at the link above...you will find this, " Sneedville Attorney Lewis Jarvis names several Melungeons: Vardy Collins, Shepard Gibson, Benjamin Collins, Solomon Collins, Paul Bunch and the Goodman chiefs. Jarvis later names James Collins, John Bolin and Mike Bolin and some others not remembered." So now we go back to the DNA results: 87771 Vardy Collins b 1764 Unknown Origin R1a1a 87768 Shepherd Gibson d. 1842 Hawkins Co. TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2 117395 Benjamin Collins, 1800, Hancock Co. Tn. Unknown Origin E1b1a 87510 Benjamin Collins United States R1b1a2 239224 Marvel- Benjamin Collins Unknown Origin E1b1a Which Ben Collins was the Melungeon? 210660 Obadiah Goodman 1770-1839 KY and TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2 154495 Alfred Goodman, 1828-1898 Unknown Origin R1b1a2 There is only two Goodman's in the project 247883 Samuel Bunch, Hancock County, TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4 95039 Elza Bunch Unknown Origin R1b1a2 83214 Lorenzo Dow Bunch Unknown Origin R1b1a2 260393 Solomon Bunch, b. 1783 and d. 1870 Unknown Origin E1b1a 17113 John Bunch, born about 1630, New Kent, VA Unknown Origin E1b1a8a N7586 Henry Bunch, Bertie Co., NC Unknown Origin E1b1a8a Alot of Bunches there....defiently two different Bunch families completely unrelated to each other...so which one was Paul Bunch's family that was named Melungeon? We know 1630 is too early, we know bertie county is near the North Carolina coast..We know Samuel Bunch was living in Hancock county, Tenn. So I guess it is safe to assume the Hancock county Bunch family is the one mentioned by Sneedville Attorney since Sneedville is in Hancock county, Tenn. B2319 James Collins , b. 1773 and d. 1860 United States E1b1b1 Is this the James called a Melungeon? "Some of them went into the War of 1812-1914 whose names are here given; James Collins, John Bolin and Mike Bolin and some others not remembered;" http://historical-melungeons.blogspot.com/p/lewis-jarvis-article.html This James would of been 39 in 1812. "James Collins 1773-1860 married Lexy Gibson (?) about 1803; Bill Groshe speculated she was a Gibson. James Collins is on the Lee County Tax lists 1804-1813 along with an old Martin Collins. The 1830 census of Hawkins County, TN., list James Collins free colored household as follows: James Collins two males under 10, one male 10-24 and James was between age 55-100. Females: one under 10, one female 10-24 possibly Matilda, and one female 36-55 was wife Lexy. James Collins is named by Sneedville Attorney Lewis M. Jarvis in his 1903 interview in the Sneedville Times as an old purebred Indian, who had fought in the war of 1812. (1994 Hancock CO, Tennessee And It’s people Volume 11.) " http://www.saponitown.com/brenda-collins-dillon/buck-gibson.htm 125415 William Bolin, b.cir 1813, d.cir 1882 Unknown Origin R1b1a2 200122 Benjamin Bolling or Boling United States R1b1a2 There is only two Bollins in the DNA project so I guess these are for the Bollin family mentioned. Now going back to the Bunch family since there is 3 that appears to be unrelated to the Hancock county Bunch family yet was put in the DNA project. "Solomon Bunch bn 1783 VA & Wife Nancy bn 1783 N.C. Solomons Father: Micajah BUNCH b: Abt 1770 in Bertie, , NC Mother: Lavinia HOLDER b: Bef 1774 in Bertie, , NC

Children 1 F Sally Sarah BUNCH Born: 1810 2 M Craven BUNCH Born: 15 Apr 1815 3 M Jesse BUNCH Born: 15 Apr 1815 4 M Gabriel BUNCH Born: 1820 5 M Joel G. BUNCH Born: 1822 6 M George Washington BUNCH Sr. Born: 1828 - Whitley County, KY Died: 26 Apr 1885 - Whitley County, KY Buried: - 5 Miles E Of Williamsburg, Whitley County, KY Spouse1: Mary Ann BOLEN Marr: abt 1848 or 1849 Spouse2: Sarah Ann RAINS Marr: 5 Oct 1856" http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BOWLIN/2005-12/1133592568

"Craven Bunch was a son of Solomon's; Craven was a twin to Jesse and they were born, I believe in 1815. Craven settled in the Southwestern part of KY around the Adair County, Cumberland County area. Father Solomon, although supposedly born in VA or NC (last seen in VA about 1801), arrived in Knox County,KY (the part which later became Whitley) in the very early 1800s (on the Knox Co. 1810 census) and it is assumed that he died, I think, sometime in the 1870s, possibly in the Dal area or Gatliff area of Whitley County." http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/KYRUSSEL/2007-10/1191350205

Children of Solomon Bunch and Nancy ??? are, i.Burton Bunch, born 1803; died Unknown; married Mary "Polly" ???; died Unknown. ii.Jesse Bunch, born Abt. 1815 in Kentucky; died 1900 in Mud Creek, Whitley County, Kentucky; married Martha Ann Rains November 11, 1837 in Whitley County, Kentucky. iii.Craven Bunch, born 1816; died Unknown; married Mary ???; born 1822; died Unknown. Notes for Craven Bunch, Listed in 1850 census of Whitley County as "Craig" Bunch with wife & family iv.George W. Bunch, born 18201; died 18851; married (1) Mary Ann Bowlin; died Unknown; married (2) Sarah Ann Rains October 05, 1856 in Campbell County, Tennessee; born 1840; died 1888. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/o/u/Tom-Housley/GENE5-0011.html

As we can see Solomon Bunch who was added to the Melungeon DNA project was Never a part of Hancock county, Tenn. Was never called a Melungeon. DNA shows Solomon and the other Bertie county, NC Bunches was totally unrelated to the Bunch family of Sneedville, Tennessee. So why was these 3 Bunch families used in a DNA project for Melungeons?

"These two, Vardy Collins and Buck Gibson, were the had and source of the Melungeons in Tennessee. Old Benjamin Collins, one of the pioneers, was older than Vardy, but came to Tennessee a trifle later. He had quite a large family of children, among them Edmond, Mileyton, Marler, Harry, Andrew, Zeke, Jordon. From Jordan Collins descended Calloway Collins who is still living today and from whom I obtained some valuable information. Benjamin Collins was known as old Ben, and became the head of the Ben's tribe. Old Solomon Collins was the head of Sol's tribe. The English branch began with the MULLINS tribe, a very powerful tribe, Old Jim Mullins, the father of the branch, was an Englishman. The African branch was introduced by one Goins who emigrated from North Carolina after the formation of the state of Tenn. Goins was a Negro, and did not settle upon the Ridge, but lower down the Big Sycamore Creek in Powell's Valley. He took a Melungeon woman for his wife (took up with her),and reared a family or tribe. The Goins family may be easily recognized by their kinky hair ,flat nose and foot, thick lips, and a complexion totally unlike the Collins and Mullins tribes. The Portuguese branch was for a long time a riddle, the existence of it being stoutly denied. It has at last, however, been traced to one "Denham", a Portuguese who married a Collins woman. " http://www.historical-melungeons.com/meltree.html

We already covered Vardy Collins and Shep Gibson. We found 3 Ben Collins in the project. there was no Solomon Collins in the project. So here is the other's DNA from the project. 69729 David Denham, b. 1754, Louisa County, VA. Unknown Origin I1 87373 Irish Jim Mullins of Hawkins Co. TN, b. c. 1780 Unknown Origin R1b1a2 72301 George Washington Goins Unknown Origin A 44230 Joeseph Goins b 1766 d 1859 Unknown Origin R1b1a2 67719 Thomas Goin born Abt.1750 VA Unknown Origin E1b1a 40479 John Going b. c. 1730, Fairfax Co., VA Unknown Origin E1b1a 87784 `levy going born 1796 in georgia Unknown Origin E1b1a

There was only one Denham in the project so we can assume that is for the Denham family mentioned. There is defiently 3 different Goins families here. One is from Georgia and I have never seen Georgia as a original for Melungeons before. A Lumbee was hung in Georgia and Lumbee have some Goins so maybe that is the Lumbee Goins family. John MULLINS (Son of Irish Jim Mullins)-b. ca.1823 TN. Married Mahala COLLINS, dau. of Solomon and Gincie (GOINS) COLLINS. Joseph Goins, born 1766 in Virginia; died (?). He married Millie Lovins. Millie Lovins, born 1770 in Virginia; died (?). Children of Joseph Goins and Millie Lovins are: Virginia Jane "Gincy" Goins, born 1793 in Fairfax Co., VA; died (?); married Solomon Dickinson Collins. Aletha Goins, born ca. 1795; married (1) Gilford Frost; married (2) James Livesay February 19, 1851. George W. Goins, born ca. 1797; married Lively Bunch August 5, 1839 in Hawkins Co., TN. Hardin Goins, born ca. 1800. 44230 Joeseph Goins b 1766 d 1859 Unknown Origin R1b1a2

So this Joseph Goins must of been who Will Allen Dromgoole was talking about. However these Goins actually lived on Newman's ridge not off the ridge and these Goins did not have the features Will Allen Dromgoole mentioned for the Goins family which is seen in the pictures of Mahala Collins. Here is pictures of Mahala taken from Newspapers: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=39642771

"The first census of Hancock Co., Tn. listed: Fam. #77N. LIVELY BUNCH, 50, b. Va., cake baker, dau. of Joseph & Rachel Bunch." http://www.historical-melungeons.com/bunchnotes.html

Remember Paul Bunch is who was named a Melungeon in Sneedville, Tenn. 247883 Samuel Bunch, Hancock County, TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4 95039 Elza Bunch Unknown Origin R1b1a2 83214 Lorenzo Dow Bunch Unknown Origin R1b1a2

Here is copy of Rachel Bunch's will which names Samuel and Lively. http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2593875/Copy-of-the-Last-Will-and-Testament-of--Rachel-Bunch-deceased

Since Lorenzo matches Samuel and Elza Bunch's DNA, We will look at Lorenzo's ancestry. He probally goes back to John BUNCH (BUNCE), Sr born Abt 1636 England Or Scotland, John's father was Ensign Thomas (Bunch) BUNCE born Abt 1607-1612 Kent County, England. http://avocadoridge.com/carney/getperson.php?personID=I4726&tree=tree1 Judging by the DNA Haplogrouup, this family tracing back to Louisa county, VA, and the name Lorenzo Dow Bunch and the Kentucky location. DNA has proved these Bunch's are not part of the Bertie county, NC Bunch family as once thought.

Since Solomon Collins DNA was not added but was with this group, here is his family history: Solomon Collins SR, born 1760 in Cumberland Co., PA; died February 8, 1838 in Hawkins Co., TN. He married Edy Dickinson 1796 in North Carolina. Edy Dickinson, born ca. 1762; died (?). Children of Solomon Collins and Edy Dickinson are: Solomon Dickinson Collins, born 1799 in North Carolina; died June 28, 1863; married Virginia Jane "Gincy" Goins. George Collins, born ca. 1800, died (?). Charles Collins, born ca. 1802, died (?). Robert Collins, born ca. 1804, died (?).

So this still leaves the "Negro" Goins family Will Allen Dromgoole mentioned. Going to the recent Newspaper article Jack Goins stated this about his DNA results "It surprised me so much when mine came up African that I had it done again," http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/melungeon-dna-study-origin_n_1544489.html So this shows his Goins line did not go to the Goins who lived on Newman's Ridge which showed as a R1b1a2 (Western European R-M269). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.195 (talk) 06:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

""Haplogroup A contains some of the oldest Y-chromosome lineages on Earth. Typically found among isolated groups in southern and eastern Africa, the haplogroups is very rare today. It can occasionally be found among African Americans, however." 23andme

72301 George Washington Goins Unknown Origin A

So this would match with a "Negro" Goins family who did not live on Newman's ridge. "Evidently both my Goins and Minor family told this census person they were Portuguese and he wrote Portugee in race column, but later wrote the initial W real dark over this Portuguese maybe because he noticed the 1880 census did not list Portuguese. " http://www.jgoins.com/maybe_melungeon.htm

This again confirms what Will Allen stated "The Portugese blood has been a misfortune to the first Melungeons in as much as it has been a shield to the Goins clan under which they have sought to shelter themselves and repudiate the African streak. " http://www.historical-melungeons.com/meltree.html

"Now about the Collins boys, I knew when I was a boy Navarrh, or as he was called, "Vardy" Collins was a fine old patriarch, said to be of Portuguese Nationality" http://www.historical-melungeons.com/Rhea_Letter.html "Vardy was the son of James Navarrh H. Collins (he was called Henry), born in 1699 in Virginia. Henry was the son of Henry Collins, the indentured servant of Thomas Wood. He is listed in the Court Book of the Virginia Company dated 15 December 1619 and 23 June 1620. See Manchester Papers #241, Public Records Office, London, England, List of Records #58." http://www.geni.com/people/Vardy-Collins/6000000009616411448

This matches with Thomas wood records also since his servant was a man from Portugal (The country not colony). "We hence sent back a horse belonging to Mr. Thomas Wood, which was tired, by a Portugal, belonging to Major General Wood," Annals of Southwest Virginia, 1769-1800. www.donchesnut.com/genealogy/pages/battsandfallamjournal.pdf This would match with Vardy's DNA being R1a1a. Would also match with the first record of the word Melungeon in 1810 saying Melungeons was neither Negro nor Indian but was Foreigners. www.jogg.info/72/files/Estes.pdf

All the Gibsons in the project was R1b1a2, except for a Willie Gibson, who was Willie Gibson? I have tried to find information on any Willie Gibson associated with Melungeons. All the project has listed is a name with no dates, the DNA shows this mysterious Willie Gibson to be no relation to any other Gibsons.

Next person in the project Peter Mallet, the Mallett name is not a Melungeon

surname so it is unclear why this person is in the project for Melungeons, 182331 Peter Mallett, 1820 Census, Wilkes County, NC Unknown Origin E1b1a7a

PETER MALLETT was the ancesteral father of the Hawkins County, Hancock County,

Bradley County, and Hamilton County, TN Malletts. Not much is known about Peter

Mallett, but it is believed that he was a Melungeon. Peter Mallett married ELIZABETH UNKNOWN about 1815 in Wilkes County, NC. Elizabeth

was born about 1790 in NC.

Children of PETER MALLETT and ELIZABETH UKNOWN are: i. UNKNOWN MALLETT, b. 1817; d. Abt. 1840; m. JOHN BEGLEY, Abt. 1835;

b. 1805, Hawkins, Tennessee. ii. LEVI MALLETT, b. 1819, NC; d. June 06, 1862, Lexington, Kentucky. iii. WILLIAM JEFFERSON MALLETT, b. 1825. iv. MALINDA MALLETT, b. 1826; d. Aft. 1860; m. WILLIAM HOPKINS, Abt.

1845; b. 1820, Hawkins, Tennessee. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vljones/mallet/mallet01.html

LEVI MALLETT was born in 1819 in Wilkes County, NC, and died on June 06, 1862 in

Lexington, KY Levi Mallett married ELIZABETH MINOR February 15, 1842 in Hancock Co, TN, daughter

of JOHN MINOR and SUSAN GOINS. She was born 1823 in Hawkins County, TN, and died

April 10, 1861 in Hawkins Co, Tennessee.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON MALLETT was born in 1825 in Wilkes County, NC. He married

JOHANNAH ANDERSON. She was born in 1830 in Grayson County, VA, and was the daughter

of STEPHEN ANDERSON and SARAH PERKINS.

40479 John Going b. c. 1730, Fairfax Co., VA Unknown Origin E1b1a 5510 Gilford Minor Unknown Origin E1b1a 41026 Simp Miner Unknown Origin E1b1a 36031 Hezekiah Miner 1765-1830 Unknown Origin E1b1a

HEZEKIAH MINOR was born 1766 in Halifax County, Virginia, and died 1840 in Hawkins

County, Tennessee. He married ELIZABETH GOINS September 19, 1795 in Henry,

Virginia, daughter of John and Elizabeth Going. Elizabeth Going, wife of Hezekiah

Miner, was namesed in the 1801 will of her father John Going, Jr., of Henry Co. Va. Children of HEZEKIAH MINOR and ELIZABETH GOINS are: i. JAMES MINOR, b. Hancock County, Tennessee; d. Fisher Vally, Hancock County,

Tennessee. ii. JOHN MINOR, b. 1797, Virginia; d. 1850. iii.ZACHARIAH MINOR, b. 1798, Rockingham County, North Carolina; d. March 10, 1872,

Kyles Ford, Tennessee. iv.LEWIS MINOR, b. December 24, 1807, Rockingham County, North Carolina; d. October

30, 1877, Hancock County, Tennessee.

Only marriages from this family to Melungeons families which I could find are,

SUSAN MINOR (ZACHARIAH2, HEZEKIAH1) was born May 14, 1835, and died November 16,

1914. She married (1) WILLIAM GOINS. She married (2) GEORGE WASHINGTON GOINS

1865 in Tennessee, son of GEORGE GOINS and MUNCEY. He was born 1835 in North

Carolina. Their daughter was, LILLIE Earnestine GOINS, b. 1882, Hancock County, Tennessee; m. JOSEPH COLLINS; b.

March 1883, Hancock County, Tennessee. Lillie was listed as white by the

Government. http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/2011/218/74565262_131276386476.jpg

---

ZACHARIAH2 MINOR (HEZEKIAH1) was born 1798 in Rockingham County, North Carolina,

and died March 10, 1872 in Kyles Ford, Tennessee. He married AGGIE SIZEMORE

October 18, 1824. She was born July 29, 1803 in Tennessee, and died 1870 in

Hawkins County, Tennessee. Their son, JAMES MINOR, b. March 18, 1845; m. AMANDA GIBSON; b. March 16, 1868; d. December

12, 1930.

Their daughter, LYDIA MINOR (ZACHARIAH2, HEZEKIAH1) was born 1836 in Tennessee, and died 1880 in

Hawkins County, Tennessee. She married (1) JAMES GOODMAN.

http://www.historical-melungeons.com/hezekiah_minor.html

Simp Miner and Gilford Minor's information, Simpson P. Miner Date and Place of Birth: TN June 12 1855 Name and age of spouse: Mary Sizemore 46 Father: Gilford Minor Mother: Polly Goins Where were they born: Father: Hancock County, TN Mother: Hancock, TN Grandparent's Father's side: Zach Miner-Agga Sizemore Grandparent's Mother's side: Zar(Isiaih Goins) Minta (Arminta) http://www.historical-melungeons.com/cherokee1.html

Information on the Joseph Collins who married Lillie, He was a member of the Secret Order of the Redman of Appalachia. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=68848903

JAMES3 MINOR (ZACHARIAH2, HEZEKIAH1) was born March 18, 1845, and died 1909. He

married (1) AMANDA GIBSON, daughter of GEORGE GIBSON and ESTER ???. She was born

March 16, 1868, and died December 12, 1930. He married (2) ELIZA HURD. He married

(3) SARAH WINSTEAD. He married (4) SARA SMITH. Notes for AMANDA GIBSON: GIBSON Family First Generation 1. George1 Gibson birth date unknown. George died date unknown at age unknown.(50) http://genforum.genealogy.com/minor/messages/1260.html

"George Gibson born in 1834 son of Lambert Gibson and Margaret (Peggy) Gibson. He married Ester Stampler in 1854" http://genforum.genealogy.com/gibson/messages/13175.html Lambert Gibson was born 1802 in Scott County,Va. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/i/b/James-L-Gibson/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0047.html