Talk:Memín Pinguín

Miscellaneous comments

CNN has images of all five stamps. Maybe someone familiar with Wiki imaging could upload and add to this article...?

Memin is not a Afro mexican boy, its a cuban.

Well, Memin was inspired by the afro-cuban children the author met during a trip to Cuba in the 1930's, the character is mexican.

There have been allegations of racist imagery raised... there are picture-perfect examples of the Mammy in there... [1]

you can also visit the official site www.mundovid.com the most recent issue's cover portrays a future sight of memin in which he sees himself as realistic drawn adult, and also they are reciving any complaint about memin exactly to defend their posture of their comic not being racist. by the way, you can make a comparision between the comic with the poorly drawn character with the recent (march 06, 2005 in austin, texas) "texas cops suspended over club fire jokes" which the cops started doing after they knew the people inside where blacks. The fact is that many Mexicans are also offended with the allegations of U.S. leaders (now even historians like Enrique Krauze are defending the stamp).

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I am just wondering. I don't buy the comic, but is it still being written/edited in any way? particularly, are there any new numbers, or are they just reprints?

Just reprints, there were only 300 or so issues, but they are reprinted over and over again.

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In case some needs more information, i have in my own forum ( http://foros.kaliman.org.mx) a section dedicated to memin :http://foros.kaliman.com.mx/discus/messages/41/4029.html?1121182893 , http://foros.kaliman.com.mx/discus/messages/41/4536.html?1111703855 and http://foros.kaliman.com.mx/discus/messages/41/10219.html?1120717568 . Sorry.. it,s only in spanish.. But you can also found some info about mexican comics. Aanother mexican comic with black protagonist were "Fuego" (fire), where the heroes where the black people of Haiti http://foros.kaliman.com.mx/discus/messages/41/9744.html?1119710786 and other Comic was "Rarotonga" . All were published by the same editorial of Memin. In case you wonder... "Kaliman" wa also a very popular mexican comic (http://www.kaliman.com.mx) Nanahuatzin 00:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

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Hello, my contributions to this article are the point of Memin similarity to pickaninny stereotype, and the correction of the original writing, pointing with a lot of ignorance about inexistence of organized racial discrimination in Mexico´s history. This last point was erased, but because nobody, in good faith, wants to feed up conflict between mexican-americans and afro-americans, or give the wrong impression we, all mexicans, are racist I accepted it.

But lies like the unconcern of Speedy Gonzalez sterotype by the majority if not all mexican people are not acceptable. If the censor wants to make his/her point then must show arguments. -posmodern2005

There are two reasons for erasing it (although I have only done so once, and I am certainly no censor). One, you have not provided a source for this. While you may (or may not) be offended by Speedy Gonzales, that does not mean the Mexican (that's a capital 'M', by the way; I had to capitalize all of them for you) population as a whole feels the same way. Please provide a source for your statement. I would go look for one myself right now but I'm really too tired and I'll probably forget by tomorrow. The second reason is the way you have written it does not belong in an encyclopedia article. After all, you never read an article in an encyclopedia where a footnote is added saying "This is not true, some editor keeps trying to censor it". In short, messages like that belong on the talk page, not the article.

I have no interest in "censoring" the article or making Speedy Gonzales look good. I imagine the people who have reverted your comment several times before feel the same way. Please do not jump to conclusions. - furrykef (Talk at me) 7 July 2005 09:44 (UTC)

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Well, if it was not just you then are a group of very touchy individuals about the matter. What a coincidence! And you don´t say nothing about the "coincidence" of the disappearance of Memin controversy from Vicente Fox´s article.

You don´t provide a source but want a source from me? Well my source is http://foros.eluniversal.com.mx/foros_sr_detalle_foro_limit.php?p_id_tema=3550&p_apartir=0&p_opinionesxpag=15&p_pag=1, where a lot of mexican people say "gringos" are nuts to feel offended if they have Speedy Gonzalez.

Don´t try to give me lessons about making an encyclopedia if you can´t give me lessons of honesty. Now, I´m not just writing an article but denouncing a censorship attempt.

It´s not about "making Speedy Gonzales look good" but "making Memin look good because Speedy Gonzalez looks good too (and don´t offend "many")". -posmodern2005 P.S.: By the way, I keep record of all changes in article and discussion.

posmodern2005, may I suggest you the diff facilities where it says Page History? :-) Asereje 01:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Please: The Mexican goverment make that statetmen about Speedy. What mexicans thinks, is another issue. I personally, feel good about speedy, he always was winning and mocking to "el gato gringo"... but this was in arto due to changes made on the fly by the mexicans while dubing the cartoon.. The english dialogues were a bit different, so probalby we are not speaking of the same things. But there is also a lot of mexicnas, specially intelectuals, that fell ofended by the cartoon. Nanahuatzin 7 July 2005 16:58 (UTC)

posmodern2005: How is this, then? (We've edited it again.) I'm all for honesty, but if you wish to edit Wikipedia then you should do so the way Wikipedia does. I understand you are a new user, and English does not seem to be your native language, so this is difficult. But it is why we have treated your edit with (admittedly too much) hostility. By the way, as for our source about Speedy Gonzalez, we can point to our own article, which states that the League of United Latin American Citizens declared Speedy to be a positive depiction. This does not seem to be an insignificant endorsement, although I am aware it cannot speak for everyone. Moreover, as one editor had just noted, the declaration you are editing was made by the Mexican government; it doesn't matter if Mexicans agree with it, it is what the government said. We should have made this more clear now.

By the way, I cannot read your source because it is in Spanish, which I can only read with great difficulty. But you say that it says we're nuts to be offended if we have Speedy; isn't that more or less what our article says now? Is your source suggesting Speedy is offensive, or simply that we shouldn't be offended by Memín?

Finally, I again implore you not to jump to conclusions. Wikipedia does not censor things, and neither do I. It's just that your wording was very unprofessional and our reverting is our way of asking you to rewrite it, not to sanitize it. I'm sorry that this hadn't been made clear earlier. - furrykef (Talk at me) 7 July 2005 17:10 (UTC)

Hi Furrykef, I agree with you, please. do not confusse my with the one is complaining about censorship. I think it,s important to keep the the response of the Mexican goverment, while indicating that not all mexican aggre. I whish i could provide a source to copy of the declaration in English. If i found one, i would change the link. Meanwhile, i would apreciate any corrections to my aditions. Although i have been working in the wikipedia for more than a year (see aztecs), my english is still not good enough. :( Nanahuatzin 7 July 2005 17:36 (UTC)

My reply was addressed to posmodern2005. The problem was we replied at the same time so it looks like I was talking to you. Sorry for the confusion. :) - furrykef (Talk at me) 7 July 2005 18:09 (UTC)

Hi Furrykef, mmh... it seems there are too much people working on this at the same time... I better wait until all is settle down, a few changes seems to be lost...  :( Nanahuatzin 7 July 2005 18:25 (UTC)

My two cents. As a compromise (OK, I hadn't read the Discussion page) where it said the government said many mexicans liked Speedy but not all mexicans agreed I put a weak "but probably not all agree" (or something like that). I don't mind if it gets deleted, but being a touchy subject I hesitated. I also think is best to wait a little for further editing. Also a chance to see if there are any examples of reasonably important organizations or groups taking a stance on the subject. However, I completely support the removal of comments like 'they are censoring me' in the main article. I wrote something of the nonexistence of Jim Crow laws and other issues, but they were completely erased. My point was to say the situation was completely different in Mexico (therefore) the different opinions on whether Memin is racist or not. Info on the black situation in Mexico perhaps should be in the Afro-Mexican page. Persecution against the Chinese in the early 20th century perhaps belongs to other, unrelated pages. Asereje 01:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

A note on capitalization

I noticed somewhere among the recent edits someone went through and capitalized "Black" throughout the article, apparently by analogy with how I capitalized "Mexican" throughout. Here's my opinion: racial group names are not capitalized (white, black, hispanic, etc.), but nationalities, when they refer to the nation's proper name, are (Mexican, Japanese, Indian, Roman, etc.). That's because proper nouns are always capitalized (it's "Mexico" and not "mexico"), and these names are forms of those nouns. Some people do capitalize all racial group names, which is not necessarily incorrect (but seems overly formal to me), but I notice that the word "mexican", without the capitalization, keeps creeping in, which is incorrect, so I felt I had to comment. - furrykef (Talk at me) 7 July 2005 19:01 (UTC)

A note about "hispanic" being a race. It isn't. Hispanics are of black, white, amerindian, asian, and any combination of these. --Vizcarra 7 July 2005 20:40 (UTC)

Fair enough (though it does denote a distinct cultural group in the same vein), but Asian should be capitalized too ;) (Amerindian is usually capitalized as well, but I can see arguments being made against it.) - furrykef (Talk at me) 8 July 2005 20:55 (UTC)

How do you do with the people in latin america who is so mixed that race is meaningless for they (I know people who is of three or more different heritages: chinese, lebanese, amerindian, european, african...)? will they have to use the word 'predominantly' and then pick a race?

People are still using the decapitalized form. Are you guys doing it just to annoy me or what? This is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia must use proper English. I understand that this may be difficult if you don't speak English natively, so grammar and such I can let slide because it is difficult to grasp; but when I have already pointed out a capitalization error that is easy to correct, it is not too much to ask that you stop making it. - furrykef (Talk at me) 20:16, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to lash out like that. - furrykef (Talk at me) 20:26, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

"Bad meaning"

Memin is a weekly comic magazine from Mexico first published in the 1940s and in print since, narrating the adventures of a very poor Afro-Mexican boy named Memín Pinguín (known as Memín Pingüín by some Mexicans due to a publisher's change, when they found the word has a bad meaning in some countries, but later it was restored to Pinguin. The character declared in one history, "I am not a pinguin").

What is this "bad meaning"? Is it confusion with penguin or something else? - furrykef (Talk at me) 7 July 2005 19:04 (UTC)

In some sudamerican countries, pinguín has a phallic implication... Also, "pingo" is a sinonimous of demon, so some catholic priest were concerned when the character became popular (note: as an example, my wife is evangelist, and she does not like when i call my daughters "pingos", when they make some mischief, she fears the implication of the demon.. ). On the other hand Pingüín is very similar to "Pingüino", that is pinguin. Can you help my to make my wording less confusing?. The change of name was important to mexicans, so i think it has some place in the article....Nanahuatzin 7 July 2005 19:15 (UTC)

I forgot... "Pinguín" is pronounced "pingeen", while "Pingüín" is pronounced like "Pinguin" (stress is on the last "i") Nanahuatzin 7 July 2005 19:20 (UTC)

Someone wrote 'pingüin' was the spanish word for penguin, and it's not: it is 'pingüino' (most people would omit the ¨). So I removed that and the rest ("I am not a..") which I believe was never said by Memin but by the rights owner in an interview, or perhaps in a TV commercial in the launch of the last reprint (near 2002). Does anyone have a source on the name change? I believe it happened in the 1980s printing. Asereje 02:03, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, i forgot to correct "pingúino" . Memin said that in an "interview" for the magazine "Contenido", there he explained his "genealogy . If i remember, it was 1973 o 1975. I need to dig my old magazines to find out. I found it amusing, but now i am not shure if english readers would understand the pun intended. Nanahuatzin 06:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

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Furrykef:

You have the same talent of mexican president, Vicente Fox, to make things clear and arrange your own mistakes (yes, I´m sarcastic), no matter you´re not mexican (that waht you say).

Who are "we" and what you mean with "the way Wikipedia does"? You are member of the "Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation", do you have some official charge here? I write here because Wikipedia says it´s the first step to dispute resolution. But if you ("WE") still act with the unfairness and dishonesty you show from the beginning I´ll try to contact the Foundation myself.

I think of Wikipedia as a place of intellectual honesty, not censorship and hipocrisy.

The article of Speedy Gonzalez you mention as your source was changed too, sanitized of any controversial angle. Another coincidence. Who´s the next? Frito Bandito´s article? (I keep record too).

You say "the declaration you are editing was made by the Mexican government; it doesn't matter if Mexicans agree with it, it is what the government said". Seems right, but then why all the changes in the sense of an official statement of mexican government? This is the evolution of the statement in the article with your ("WE") strange way to edit (and censor):

1. In June 2005, as part of a "History of Mexican Comics" series, the Mexican Postal Service (SEPOMEX) issued a series of stamps featuring the character of Memín. The stamps were deemed offensive by a number of African-American community groups and politicians in the United States, amongst whom Jesse Jackson, sparking the Mexican government to assert that Memín had done a lot to oppose racism, and pointing out the Warner Brothers' character Speedy Gonzales was never interpreted as offensive by Mexicans.
2. In June 2005, as part of a "History of Mexican Comics" series, the Mexican Postal Service (SEPOMEX) issued a series of stamps featuring the character of Memín. The stamps were deemed offensive by a number of African-American community groups and politicians in the United States, amongst whom Jesse Jackson, sparking the Mexican government to assert that Memín had done a lot to oppose racism, and pointing out the Warner Brothers' character Speedy Gonzales was never interpreted as offensive by many Mexicans.
3. In June 2005, as part of a "History of Mexican Comics" series, the Mexican Postal Service (SEPOMEX) issued a series of stamps featuring the character of Memín. The stamps were deemed offensive by a number of African-American community groups and politicians in the United States, amongst whom Jesse Jackson, sparking the Mexican government to assert that Memín had done a lot to oppose racism, and state that the Warner Brothers' character Speedy Gonzales was never interpreted as offensive by many Mexicans (although not all Mexicans agree with this point). -posmodern2005

Ooops, you are very fast. Now, you ("WE")changed Memin article to: "and to state that the Warner Brothers' character Speedy Gonzales was never interpreted as offensive by many Mexicans. That statement is something not all Mexicans agree with". Very different of the original presentation. And the mention to some controversy are back in Speedy Gonzales article.

the way the media has ivolved speedy in the controversy it seems they don't hate speedy gonzalez more like they think the blacks are angry for the use of a black character and they are saying "but you have speedy, where is the racism on it?" few mexicans know what is a Jim Crow Law but the americans has used them in they arguments in every forum I has been.

Alright, seems like I must fight word by word to make changes in articles. The next thing: the censorship to the point of the bad record in racial issues of "makers of public opinion in Mexico" after "The criticism from US officials not only was ridiculed by the makers of public opinion in Mexico..." Names? the first of all: Televisa.

hola 148.221.192.179. Serias tan amable de identificarte, es dificil saber con quine estoy hablando, el registro puede ser anonimo y no debes preocuparte. No entiendo muy bien lo que intentas hacer. Televisa no es un lider de opinion, aunque es cierto que tiene ciertas actitudes racistas en contra de la gente morena, pero segun pude ver, Jacobo Zabludosky de televisa estaba a favor de descontinuar las estampillas, hasta que el numero de telefonemas a favor de las estampillas lo obligo a cambiar de opinion. Si pudieras ser mas preciso en que lideres de la opinion tienen mala fama en cuestiones raciales, seria muy util. Por favor debes recordar que la base de los articulos de la wikipedia es que deben ser neutrales. Si hay opiniones divididas, se deben exponer los dos puntos de vista. Nanahuatzin 8 July 2005 06:52 (UTC)

I thought Zabludovsky had no relationship with Televisa since the late 1990s, but he is still active in radio. For non spanish readers, the comment above was on Televisa power in influencing public opinion. Asereje 02:03, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks... you are right. It was on radio.. just i still think on him as part of televisa..Nanahuatzin 06:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

help: Can someone help me to correct my translation of the declaration by Derbez: " "Es una falta total de conocimiento de nuestra cultura, me parece que es una falta total de respeto a nuestra cultura que algunas personas estén haciendo de esto un tema que no corresponde a la realidad". Thanks Nanahuatzin 8 July 2005 15:32 (UTC)

how about this? "is a total lack of knowledge of our culture, it looks to me that it is a total lack of respect to our culture for some persons to be doing this an issue which don't resemble the reality."

Alleged black Mexican protests

Can we have a source that black Merxicans are protesting against Menim, or I will remove the allegations, SqueakBox July 8, 2005 15:55 (UTC)

Do this count as a source? http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/07/05/mexico.stamps.reut/index.html . I am a bit dubious about it, since " Rev. Glyn Jemmott" does not sound like the name of a mexican catolic priest. But there are a few organizations, like "mexico negro" that have had some declarations on mexican TV.

Is my perception that "most" mexican black people does not care, but some of the afro mexican organization are taking this time to make them be noticed. but still i think those protest should be noticed.

I have one question. I wish to point that afro mexican population is very small, this is one of the reasons mexicans does not percieve the drawing as ofensive. Do you think is important?. Also thanks for cleaning. Sometimes is dificult to be neutral.

Mexicans don't percieve the drawing as offensive because Mexico didn't have Jim Crow Laws what keeps the controversy as a problem of Ethnocentrism since both sides insist the other should see the things their way. also in Mexico the blacks aren't seen as an "opressed" class between the average population the only ones in that situation (an therefore enjoying the protection of P.C. groups in Mexico) are the amerindians, women & homosexuals.

What is a P.C. group??. Nanahuatzin 8 July 2005 21:49 (UTC)

You know the groups of people who goes saying what's 'politically correct' and what's not.

OK, thanks ... as you have noticed, 'politically correct' is a concept almost unknown in Mexico... Nanahuatzin 05:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

No cambies mis palabras. digo que los negros en México dificilmente pasaron por las condiciones que pasaron los de Estados Unidos o los indigenas en México, para empezar donde un indigena era campesino el negro era capataz (México a traves de los siglos tomo VI capitulo II), su esclavitud fue abolida en México mucho antes que en Estados Unidos, en México no hubo segregacion hacia los negros, actualmente en la television Méxicana hay mas negros que indigenas y asociaciones como México negro estan usando las malas condiciones en que viven los indigenas para su cruzada por ponerse asi mismos como una raza oprimida. si alguien debe pedir disculpas son ellos (México negro).

Estimado 200.66.35.78, (serias tan amable de registrart, es un poco confuso saber con quien estoy hablando). No entiendo la relacion de tu comentario con el articulo. Tu palabras parecen mostrar rabia hacia la poblacion negra de Mexico. Eso es algo que no tiene cabida aqui. Hasta donde sea posible debemos poner los hehcos y dejar que el lector saque sus conclusiones. Mexico es un pais donde practicamente no existe poblacion negra, en un sentido racial, la mayor parte se mezclo conla poblacion y probablemente la mayor parte de los mexicanos tengamos algun ancestro negro, ya que la poblacion negra original era mas grande que la poblacion española. Solo exixten algunas comunidades negras, que fueron constituidas por esclavos que se escaparon y trataron de vivir su vida, esas comunidades estan casi en el mismo estatus de las comunidades indigenas, con la diferencia de que para el gobierno no exixten. Eso no significa que los negros la han pasado bien en Mexico, pero definitivalmente no sufieron lo mismo que en EU. Nanahuatzin 17:03, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

lo que dije no fue con ninguna actitud racista la mencion de que de los negros en television es por algo llamado sobrerepresentacion si bien dificilmente estan al nivel de los blancos si tienen una mayor presencia que grupos demograficamente mas numeros y aun asi he visto muchos Estadounidenses quejarse de que no hay suficientes negros en la television Méxicana y que eso tambien es una muestra del racismo que hay contra ellos y no falto el que se quejo del negrito Bimbo ahora que si eres de los que acusan a alguien de racista en vez de checar bien primero lo que dice, yo nunca dije nada contra los negros en México solo contra esa asociacion me parecio bajo de su parte lucrar con un tema tan delicado para darse publicidad como si nuestras relaciones diplomaticas con Estados Unidos no fueran lo bastante malas ademas me sorprende sus comentarios parecian mas del tipo de que ni siquiera sabian que memin existiera yo lo conozco lo suficientemente bien como para saber que es un comic aburrido pero de racista no tiene nada, lo de parte de descendencia negra tiene sentido si no como te explicas que muchos mestizos tengan la piel mas oscura que los indigenas aunque no se que tenga que ver con la discusion. la relacion de mi comentario anterior esta en el sentido de lo politicamente correcto y la accion afirmativa que no son los mismo que tolerancia esto lo digo por que el asunto de memin pinguin es que su imagen es politicamente incorrecta y quiero dejar esto en claro por que el P.C. lo unico que logra es convertir a eso mismos grupos en parias dentro de la sociedad. y si no alli esta el incidente del incendio en Texas en el que los policias se empezaron a burlar cuando supieron que eran negros los que estaban atrapados es un pais que esta conciente de su poblacion negra pero todavia los tratan mal a la primera oportunidad, que digan "hey, aqui estamos" pero eso no implica que deban ser tratados de forma diferente, para mi son Méxicanos a secas, y una sugerencia aqui entre Méxicanos tengan cuidado con lo que dicen luego nos va como cuando habla el presidente. en la Laguna, donde vivo, tambien hay personas negras para que veas que no es cierto que todos viven en comunidades marginadas. de cualquier forma me gustaria que tomaras tambien en cuenta el libro México a traves de los siglos en el tomo VI el capitulo II es una introduccion al sistema de castas usado en México y el rol que tenia cada grupo mientras que el capitulo VIII habla sobre la relacion que tenian los blancos y los negros, ¿sabias que el primer levantamiento de esclavos fue en 1609? perdon por hacer el comentario tan largo pero veo que es dificil hablar sin crear malentendidos asi que la proxima vez tendre mas cuidado.--Duranguense 20:39, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Hola. Gracias por explicarte... ESta discusion se ha vuelto muy confusa y me cuesta trabajo saber quien dice que... Estoy trabajando en el articulo sobre los afromexicanos, ultimamente he estado recolectando informacion, tengo el libro de Mexico a traves de los siglos, pero no es un libro 100% confiable, sin no lo comparo con informacion de otras fuentes. Me inspira tanta desconfianza la vision afrocentrica, como la eurocentrica. Si ya habia leido sobre la rebelion de Yanga, y de como obligo a las autoridades españolas la existencia de pueblos negros libres. Si conoces otras fuentes (por ejemplo tambien tengo el Libro Rojo..) seria interezante tu aportacion. Nanahuatzin 22:33, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Also another point. Memin has been popular in other countries with a lot of black population, like Puerto Rico, and Panama. But so far most of the protest come form the black comunity in the US. That is why the article specify the lack of comprenhension... I think this is importan, but i whish to have your opinion on this point. Nanahuatzin 8 July 2005 17:00 (UTC)

I'm not sure people here are aware that Asociacion Mexico Negro and others didn't just form after the stamp was released.. They have existed and continue to exist to address community concerns of Black Mexicans. While they address bigger concerns, racism and stereotypes are among them. The presence of Jesse Jackson in the news doesn't represent the actual protest or effort of Mexican Blacks. The news knows Jesse Jackson will get people to pay attention to the story they publish, especially in regards to race. Hemakes the news much less when workign on poverty and health without mentioning race. The dubiousness of the priests's name is irrelevant - remember President Fox. CNN has a reputation as reputable, basing information based on ethnic stereotypes of where names belong isn't. The reaction of communities in Costa Chica and other places have also acknowledged racism. Are folks aware of the Convention of Black Villages started in 1997 in Mexico? The activism taht led to the creation of Museo de las Culturas Afromestizas Vicente Guerrero? Just because a community isn't reported on doesn't mean they aren't making statements. Cacimar 20:28, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello, I am aware of Mexico Negro, i hear about them about 10 years ago, but what i am not convinced is the report of Rev. Glyn Jemmott as representant of the asociation. Here n Mexico, Catholic priest are called "fathers" not rev. The interview was telephonic and was done by Reuters not CNN. Anyway, i also insisted their protest should be noted, but i included here, in the tlak page, my doubts about this particular interview. Mexico Negro sent and oficial letter to President Fox but i have not found the text, which is a reference i would prefer. Nanahuatzin 00:09, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been looking for the letter too. I run a site on Afro Latino issues and washoping to republish it for information. Glyn Temmot is from Trinidad. I'm not sure about the title, but maybe he holds a position other than fully ordained priest? He is the one who initiated the Convention of Black Villages and has been active in getting the communities resources and attention to their issues. Cacimar 14:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Somehow his protesty was not the kind a catolic priest would made. In Mexico, priest are not allowed to make politic opinions. If you would find more info, could you help us on the afro-mexicans article? It needs a lot of work. Nanahuatzin 22:33, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm Jose Pineda, also from Mexico. After reading the CNN article refered above, I'd like to say I see this as American media selectively reporting - Mexican TV also did their own research among inhabitants of Guerrero State's Costa Chica (where a large black population resides) as well as in Veracruz State's coastal areas, and found very few Mexicans of African ancestry actually rejecting the character (furthermore, most of them actually liked it!!), why have American media NOT presented that side or conducted a direct poll? That said, it most be noted too that Mexico IS a racist country, it's just it's racism is not directed towards black people (which, in fact, are viewed with some sympathy) but towards indigenous people. Some Mexican newspapers did their own polls, too, and found the same: most African-Mexicans actually liked Memin Pinguin... during the poll conducted by a newspaper (I don't remember now which one, I'll check it and comment my post) found self-deniance among Veracruz negroes: when asked what he, as a negroe, thought about Memin Pinguin, a Veracruz African-mexican said "here in Veracruz there are no negroes, go search for them in Guerrero for I'm mestizo". So it could be added to the article that proud of "the third root" of Mexicans hasn't gained much foot even among the ex-slave's descendants What *should* be added to the article (in my honest opinion) is that this comic has been popular also in Central American and Caribbean countries whose black population is several timers bigger (both in numbers and in proportion to the total country's population) and none of them, to this day, have rejected the comic... it's still being bought and popular in those countries.

Hello Jose, i am on the same opinion of you, just that i need some figures to suport this, do you have the media info? most of the info i have, comes from the editors of Memin... and i dont think is completly acurate... any help would be welcome Nanahuatzin 22:33, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Father (Padre)Glyn Jemmott - is not a mystery, he is Catholic.

http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/2008/01/event-father-gl.html

"Father Glyn Jemmott Nelson is a native of Trinidad and has worked in the Costa Chica region of Southwestern Mexico for more than 20 years. Padre Glyn is the Parish Priest at the Parish of St. John of the Cross, El Ciruelo, Pinotepa Nacional, Mexico, which is a predominately black community. He was a member of the preparatory committee for the First Meeting of Black Communities of the coastal region of Guerrero and Oaxaca, Mexico, held in March 1997 (Encuentro de Pueblos Negros). In conjunction with other regional residents, Padre Glyn has helped open a library and a secondary school. He is also a founding member of the organization México Negro." DeeOlive (talk) 08:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Afro-Latin and Afro-Mexican

I changed the Afro-Latin American wikilink to Afro-Mexican. The latter its being redirected at the moment to the former but it may not in the future if the Afro-Mexican article grows into its own article. There are many blacks in Mexico and some of them are even famous (see list in Afro-Latin American article). --Vizcarra 8 July 2005 20:08 (UTC)

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If the afro-american people or the american in general are totally ignorant of the mexican folk culture then it could also be said that the mexicans also ignore afro-american point of view on the subject and of the unfortunate past history of the United States. I am not a black person but I understand the afro-american point of view. What I am amazed is that the government of Mexico has chosen to stand on the polemic side rather than a neutral one.

In this side of the river yours is the polemic side. but yes, It would be smarter for the president to be neutral.

Elections are coming next year. Fox and his administration need to be on the side of the voters. An informal poll on my web site, suggest most mexicans feel ofended by the declaration of the US goverment. Ss strange as this sounds, it created more reactions, than the decision of the US goverment to tight the frontier with Mexico... . Nanahuatzin 05:45, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

On Spoilers

Hi. I deleted an spoiler related to Trifon because the comics get reprinted every once in a while. My personal view is there shouldn't be any spoilers altogether; if there are, they should be in a carefully marked section at the very end, perhaps after the controversy wanes, to avoid inadvertent reading. Any opinions on this? Asereje 01:23, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

ok.. i agree. The info i put on Trifon was anecdotical, to show how sentitive was the public. But it,s not critical for the article. Nanahuatzin 05:36, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Ask Zamorita

NO MORE Speedy Gonzalez

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Censorship continues here, and undisciplined people put their opinions in the main text of another people instead of make their point and just quoting.

Who are you Nanahuatzin to pretend to "teach me" like Furrykef if you say lies? ("Televisa no es un lider de opinion": Televisa is not a opinion leader). Televisa is the main provider of information and points of view of mexican people. Don´t you know the names of Joaquín López Dóriga,Adela Micha,Víctor Trujillo, Carlos Loret de Mola,or in the past, Zabludovski? Televisa HAVE most of the public opinion leaders.

Now tell me, there´s a real important black or indigenous star in mexican tv? Not foreigners like Celia Cruz, for example. The most important black actor in mexican television till now was Zamorita (worked a lot in Televisa), and what I wrote here about him was banned because by any standards he was and is what in USA is called a "sold out", an "Uncle Tom", playing ugly black buffon.No matter what Duranguense says.

Kalimba, his not so famous sister M'balia, Adrian Makala, Sabelle, Johny Laboriel and Toñita of the academy (not sure about the last one, but I want to see if some one can confirm it). amerindians? Pituca & Petaca. Asians? Hiromi Hayakawa a Japo-Mexican.--Duranguense 14:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Toñita comes from Tantoyuca, Veracruz, so she probably has black ancestry. However she has quite a fair skin to be considered black by mexican standards. I don't know a lot of Zamorita's work. He played second banana to comedians, but I wouldn't call his role buffon. Asereje 00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I really have the suspicious someone is receiving money from Mannelick de la Parra, editor of Memin.

I hope it's not you, to fuel controversy and sales. Asereje 00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Too much about his point of view and of his supporters (Enrique Krauze is not an example of intellectual honesty in any way, but if there´s an article about him I´ll make my point).

Mexico didn´t have Jim Crow laws in the sense they never received a name. The main point is minorities in Mexico are too small to make political pressure like in USA. But there was laws in the mexican states of Sonora and Sinaloa against the marriage between Chinese males and mexican womens. This is a very unknown historical fact, hidden behind ignorance and hipocrisy.

hipocrisy is when the blacks use minorities like amerindians and Chinese (who really had to endure discrimination, being free only in name and massacres like the one lead by Pancho Villa against the Chinese) to promote their agenda. if you want to talk about discrimination against blacks show me facts related to they.--Duranguense 14:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

posmodern2005, we are talking Afro-Mexicans here. It makes me wonder why you exemplify discrimination against afro-mexicans with chinese-mexican examples. Regarding Jim Crow laws, nobody is saying discrimination against anyone for any reason doesn't exist in Mexico, but comparing them with marriage prohibitions like those you mentioned is quite stretching things a bit. Besides, I believe discrimination against the Chinese ran higher in the 1900s-1930s both in Mexico and the USA. Jim Crow was from the 1940s, only in the USA. That's quite a difference. I remember reading a US black baseball player came to Mexico in the forties, and said something like Mexico had the scent of freedom. I don't know where to research those quotes, but they would be helpful in Afro-Mexican related articles. Asereje 00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

And more hipocrisy from you("WE"). You remove the reference to Speedy because there´s a great contradiction between the official statement about Speedy and the opinion of mexican people.

I don´t know if the reference of Memin controversy was back to Vicente Fox´s article. Why so much fear?

Furrykef sent a message saying he answered my concerns here, and that´s not true. Please Furrykef if you want to "correct" me in my ignorance and delusion about censorship wrote about it here, in public, not pm. Thanks. posmodern2005

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Please Duranguense, wrote in your own space and quote me, otherwise I´ll remove your text from my space. Because that only provoke confusion.

About the people you mention:

Kalimba, his not so famous sister M'balia, Adrian Makala, Sabelle, Johny Laboriel and Toñita of the academy (not sure about the last one, but I want to see if some one can confirm it). amerindians? Pituca & Petaca. Asians? Hiromi Hayakawa a Japo-Mexican.--Duranguense 14:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Are they the proof of anything but the absence of black people -and in general, minorities- in mexican Tv? Are they really big stars?

Kalimba in his last video of a romantic song of his own don´t even kiss or embrace the white girl. Johnny Laboriel in an interview in La Jornada said there´s not racism in Mexico but showed a lot of low selfesteem, calling himself names before another one do it. Sabelle is just a body, not an actress or singer to take serious. Hiromi Hayakawa? Toñita? La Academia (a mexican reality show following the steps of the students of an academy for young "talent")? Please, be serious!

People with amerindians features,indigenous people ("nacos")are just to make fun of them in mexican Tv, like Pituka and Petaka (and "La Chupitos","Evelio",and others).

The real stars in mexican Tv are white people like the cast of "Rebelde" (Rebel, the most popular soup opera for youngsters now), Luis Miguel,Anna Layevska, Verónica Castro...with a few browns without indigenous apparence.

:hipocrisy is when the blacks use minorities like amerindians and Chinese (who really had to endure discrimination, being free only in name and massacres like the one lead by Pancho Villa against the Chinese) to promote their agenda. if you want to talk about discrimination against blacks show me facts related to they.--Duranguense 14:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Hipocrisy is when you say blacks (a minority in both countries) use minorities to promote their agenda. All the rest are minorities except blacks? Nanahuatzin was right, your point of view showed some bad feelings against black people.

Let me search in La Jornada: there was a case in Guerrero about an afro-mexican student bulled by a female teacher saying things like "blacks not must be doctors".

And discrimination is not just hate speech or things like that. Like in the examples of Tv stars in Mexico is the fact beauty and intelligence belongs to whites according to TV. posmodern2005

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Toñita comes from Tantoyuca, Veracruz, so she probably has black ancestry. However she has quite a fair skin to be considered black by mexican standards. I don't know a lot of Zamorita's work. He played second banana to comedians, but I wouldn't call his role buffon. Asereje 00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The fact of consider himself/herself black or not because of a more clear skin is part of the black experience. There was films like "Pinky", by Elia Kazan, or the controversy surrounding Halle Berry, for example.

Sure Zamortia was a buffon, but if you don´t have the honesty to recognize it it´s your problem.

I really have the suspicious someone is receiving money from Mannelick de la Parra, editor of Memin.

I hope it's not you, to fuel controversy and sales. Asereje 00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it´s you because you "can´t" see the parciality to the side of Mr. de la Parra, a millionaire.

posmodern2005, we are talking Afro-Mexicans here. It makes me wonder why you exemplify discrimination against afro-mexicans with chinese-mexican examples. Regarding Jim Crow laws, nobody is saying discrimination against anyone for any reason doesn't exist in Mexico, but comparing them with marriage prohibitions like those you mentioned is quite stretching things a bit. Besides, I believe discrimination against the Chinese ran higher in the 1900s-1930s both in Mexico and the USA. Jim Crow was from the 1940s, only in the USA. That's quite a difference. I remember reading a US black baseball player came to Mexico in the forties, and said something like Mexico had the scent of freedom. I don't know where to research those quotes, but they would be helpful in Afro-Mexican related articles. Asereje 00:20, 20 July 2005

(UTC)

The case of Chinese people reveal some important facts for any minority in Mexico.That was a case when the members of the minority "threathened" to the majority group in economical sense, and for that reason they were killed and robbed and prohibited to marry mexican women.

The racial "tolerance" endured till the "foreigner" was making more money than nationals. Do you get it? Minorities are respected if they don´t try to jump to mainstream. So the absence of great racial conflicts is not product of tolerance to the different but because of the fact minorities are few and powerless. Some mexicans hate mexican Jews because they have power. You see the difference? posmodern2005

first things first, they are famous. go & ask to see how many don't know who they are, they don't have important enough jobs? for a side I agree with you in giving equal opportunity to all Méxicans but not in giving them job only for being minories that's a affirmative action, someone agrees in signing a petition for that? I think it is a good idea although I doubt Televisa will hear us. about Kalimba & Johny Laboriel practicing selfdiscrimination, I didn't knew that but is funny that you mention it since there is also blacks in the U.S. who lives of doing racial jokes like Chris Rock and I had always though that popularity and dignity are divorced. La Academia has a high enough rating & the same quality (nothing) than the telenovelas. ¿a comparition between minories? OK but only if you do accept to take it seriously, because the blacks hardly had to endure what the Chinese or worse even what the amerindians, whose I already told you, were free only in name, ¿sabes como le hacian en la Nueva España para habitar una region que creian util? movian muchos indigenas de una zona menos necesaria los mandaban a ese nuevo lugar y les prohibian por ley volver a su lugar de origen cuando esto empezo a causar muchas muertes entre la poblacion la unica medida que se adopto fue de "no mandar de zonas calidas a zonas frias ni viceversa" y ya lo dije antes: donde un indigena era campesino el negro era capataz (y muy crueles) si no me crees busca en cualquier libro de historia o en el que ya mencione Mexico a traves de los siglos tomo VI capitulo II en cuanto a los Asiaticos durante la Nueva España se les imponian impuestos especiales a los Filipinos y Chinos para evitar que inmigraran eso fue quitado durante el Porfiriato, y en respuesta los estados que tu mencionaste les pusieron sus propias restricciones para disuadirlos de que no entraran a ellos, curioso en esa misma epoca los chinos en Estados Unidos ni siquiera podian obtener la ciudadania y algunos intentaron cooperar con los Estadounidenses para capturar a Pancho Villa a cambio de ella, el en respuesta mato a todos los que encontro en Chihuahua, nota adjunta: en Torreón Coahuila hay una sustancial poblacion de Chinos y es tal vez el unico lugar en el norte donde se reusan a tener una estatua de Pancho Villa incluso tienen un parque monumento en homenaje a las familias de inmigrantes y nacionales que fundaron la ciudad y la de la China comunista es una de ellas. you said too that Enrique Krauze wasn't an example of honesty, do you have an argument for that? or you just said it because you didn't like what he said?. I mean, try to be objetive! if you say something without proves and some one says the contrary with proves the only thing you are going to do is call him racist? and no, the Lebanese-Méxicans are wealthier than the Jews in México there you have Carlos Slim or the Cimaco's owners or Salma Hayek and they hasn't been attacked yet. el que necesita seriedad eres tu, es decir solo trato de dar mi contribucion los mas objetivamente posible como para que me llamen racista por que no les gusta.--Duranguense 19:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

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Duranguense:

Our writing reveal the order or the absence of that in our thought. Your bad writing it´s only a reflection of your confusion:

first things first, they are famous. go & ask to see how many don't know who they are, they don't have important enough jobs? for a side I agree with you in giving equal opportunity to all Méxicans but not in giving them job only for being minories that's a affirmative action, someone agrees in signing a petition for that? I think it is a good idea although I doubt Televisa will hear us. about Kalimba & Johny Laboriel practicing selfdiscrimination, I didn't knew that but is funny that you mention it since there is also blacks in the U.S. who lives of doing racial jokes like Chris Rock and I had always though that popularity and dignity are divorced. La Academia has a high enough rating & the same quality (nothing) than the telenovelas. ¿a comparition between minories? OK but only if you do accept to take it seriously, because the blacks hardly had to endure what the Chinese or worse even what the amerindians, whose I already told you, were free only in name, ¿sabes como le hacian en la Nueva España para habitar una region que creian util? movian muchos indigenas de una zona menos necesaria los mandaban a ese nuevo lugar y les prohibian por ley volver a su lugar de origen cuando esto empezo a causar muchas muertes entre la poblacion la unica medida que se adopto fue de "no mandar de zonas calidas a zonas frias ni viceversa" y ya lo dije antes: donde un indigena era campesino el negro era capataz (y muy crueles) si no me crees busca en cualquier libro de historia o en el que ya mencione Mexico a traves de los siglos tomo VI capitulo II en cuanto a los Asiaticos durante la Nueva España se les imponian impuestos especiales a los Filipinos y Chinos para evitar que inmigraran eso fue quitado durante el Porfiriato, y en respuesta los estados que tu mencionaste les pusieron sus propias restricciones para disuadirlos de que no entraran a ellos, curioso en esa misma epoca los chinos en Estados Unidos ni siquiera podian obtener la ciudadania y algunos intentaron cooperar con los Estadounidenses para capturar a Pancho Villa a cambio de ella, el en respuesta mato a todos los que encontro en Chihuahua, nota adjunta: en Torreón Coahuila hay una sustancial poblacion de Chinos y es tal vez el unico lugar en el norte donde se reusan a tener una estatua de Pancho Villa incluso tienen un parque monumento en homenaje a las familias de inmigrantes y nacionales que fundaron la ciudad y la de la China comunista es una de ellas. you said too that Enrique Krauze wasn't an example of honesty, do you have an argument for that? or you just said it because you didn't like what he said?. I mean, try to be objetive! if you say something without proves and some one says the contrary with proves the only thing you are going to do is call him racist? and no, the Lebanese-Méxicans are wealthier than the Jews in México there you have Carlos Slim or the Cimaco's owners or Salma Hayek and they hasn't been attacked yet. el que necesita seriedad eres tu, es decir solo trato de dar mi contribucion los mas objetivamente posible como para que me llamen racista por que no les gusta.--Duranguense 19:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I´m gonna put in order your mess, to answer you:

First things first, they (the aforementioned members of show bussines) are famous. Go & ask to see how many don't know who they are. They don't have important enough jobs? For a side I agree with you in giving equal opportunity to all Méxicans but not in giving them job only for being minories that's a affirmative action, someone agrees in signing a petition for that? I think it is a good idea although I doubt Televisa will hear us.

Not so famous as "Rebelde", Luis Miguel... Show me a mexican soup opera with a black romantic leading man (there´s a lot of argentine people playing mexicans in Televisa because they are whites). Televisa must stop to practice racism against "nacos" first. That´s "affirmative action"? A minority (white people are 9% of mexican population) practice in Tv the discrimination against the majority (60% of mongrels, 30 % of indigenous)

About Kalimba & Johny Laboriel practicing selfdiscrimination, I didn't knew that but is funny that you mention it since there is also blacks in the U.S. who lives of doing racial jokes like Chris Rock and I had always though that popularity and dignity are divorced. La Academia has a high enough rating & the same quality (nothing) than the telenovelas.

You don´t read well. Laboriel denies there´s racism in Mexico but he proves the contrary making fun of his color not with a healthy sense of humour but in a protective way. Kalimba, even with his "fame" can´t show a interratial relationship in his video. Chris Rock is not a proof of anything because you must understand some black people can be racist too or with bad taste and insensivity. About la Academia you are agree with me, so be serious and use another example.

¿A comparition between minories? OK but only if you do accept to take it seriously, because the blacks hardly had to endure what the Chinese or worse even what the amerindians, whose I already told you, were free only in name.

You´re the one who must take this seriously. Read again what I wrote, and read well, including my mention to a case of ratial discriminatrion against a afro-mexican student.

¿Sabes como le hacian en la Nueva España para habitar una region que creian util? movian muchos indigenas de una zona menos necesaria los mandaban a ese nuevo lugar y les prohibian por ley volver a su lugar de origen. Cuando esto empezo a causar muchas muertes entre la poblacion la unica medida que se adopto fue de "no mandar de zonas calidas a zonas frias ni viceversa" y ya lo dije antes: donde un indigena era campesino el negro era capataz (y muy crueles) si no me crees busca en cualquier libro de historia o en el que ya mencione Mexico a traves de los siglos tomo VI capitulo II'. En cuanto a los Asiaticos durante la Nueva España se les imponian impuestos especiales a los Filipinos y Chinos para evitar que inmigraran eso fue quitado durante el Porfiriato, y en respuesta los estados que tu mencionaste les pusieron sus propias restricciones para disuadirlos de que no entraran a ellos. Curioso en esa misma epoca los chinos en Estados Unidos ni siquiera podian obtener la ciudadania y algunos intentaron cooperar con los Estadounidenses para capturar a Pancho Villa a cambio de ella, el en respuesta mato a todos los que encontro en Chihuahua.

Nota adjunta: En Torreón Coahuila hay una sustancial poblacion de Chinos y es tal vez el unico lugar en el norte donde se reusan a tener una estatua de Pancho Villa incluso tienen un parque monumento en homenaje a las familias de inmigrantes y nacionales que fundaron la ciudad y la de la China comunista es una de ellas.

So? "Mexico a traves de los siglos" is the product of a very intelligent mexican liberal writer: Vicente Riva Palacio. And liberals of XIX in Mexico believed in whiteness as equivalent of civilization. Mexican liberals was against indigenous people because they represented an "obstacule" to the progress of Mexico. Even having a full blooded indian as Juarez as president

You said too that Enrique Krauze wasn't an example of honesty, do you have an argument for that? or you just said it because you didn't like what he said?. I mean, try to be objetive! if you say something without proves and some one says the contrary with proves the only thing you are going to do is call him racist? and no, the Lebanese-Méxicans are wealthier than the Jews in México there you have Carlos Slim or the Cimaco's owners or Salma Hayek and they hasn't been attacked yet. el que necesita seriedad eres tu, es decir solo trato de dar mi contribucion los mas objetivamente posible como para que me llamen racista por que no les gusta.--Duranguense 19:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

You don´t show any serious proofs (not "proves") to support your prejudices so don´t try to preach me about being serious and objective.

About the intellectual dishonesty of Enrique Krauze, not racial matters involved:

1. Supported the invasion of Iraq without serious arguments
2. Was asked his opinion by Carlos Salinas about who would be better candidate, Luis Donaldo Colosio or Manuel Camacho Solís, in the antidemocratic process called "el dedazo", according to his own confession, and accepted to be part of it even being an "liberal intellectual" and supposed freedom fighter.
3. Wrote a libel against Carlos Fuentes attacking Fuentes in his character under the cover of criticizing his ideas.
4. Said in an interview with Proceso magazine about the fact each time his son viewed television was intellectualy knocked out by Chespirito (a famous mexican comic); years later he´s interviewed in the homage to Chespirito by Televisa and is all praises.

And more...

About mexican Jews and Lebanese-mexicans: Carlos Slim try to pretend to be a nationalist to avoid competition of "foreigners". There was a commercial of Telmex with a character called "Burton Helms" (a pun with anti illegal mexican inmigrants Helms-Burton law). "Burton Helms" was the "foreign" competition against "mexican" Telmex. So if lebase mexicans are not so unpopular it´s a fact of use of image. Salma Hayek is wealthier than many mexican jew entrepeneurs? Are you serious or you´re just an ignorant?

posmodern2005

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Hi User:200.92.223.82 (what is your name?). I am a mexican engineer mostlty with indian and some little black ancestry, living all my life (50 years) in Mexico City. Televisa is a Network, working no its own interest, mostly, to keep being the biggest network television. But it is not an opinion Lider. This are diferent things. Probably the soap operas from televisa make a bigest impact on public opinion that than Doriga or Zabludosky, while students, intelectual, and else... prefer chanell 11, 22 and the late 40.... Probably because of this is that i dont take those names seriously.. (with the exception of Victor Trujillo who was made on his own, and taken by televisa because he was already famous cni40 ). Televisa reflects the set of values of middle and poor class mexicans. Since colonial times skin color was determinant in the social status one could get. After 500 hundred years of spanish dominance, 150 years of independence have not erase this. AS a dream factory Televisa reflects the dreams of the middle and lower class, of getting rich... and that means to have clear skin.. That is why televisa seem to contract actor in Norway or Sweeden and not in Mexico. But indepently of televisa and it,s tamed star system. I have never been discriminated by my skin color, nobody cares if i am "prieto", i even have had my 15 minutes of fame in TV... So far i have not fouand any reason of complains of censorship. Aloth this seem to have became a falme war, so maybe it,s time to clean this mess, most of the facts in this discusion habe been erased and now there is only a recolection that have no relation with the article. Nanahuatzin 22:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

First: I was "posmodern2005", but when I tried to access was rejacted. I recognize maybe I forget my password. So I´m the same person, and I don´t try to hide under another identity.

Since I have a life and censorship was too demanding of my time I answer till now.

To Nanahuatzin:

1. You don´t have any right to reveal the IP of anyone. This even can be considered intimidation. Do you have any admnistrator rights to know the IP´s of another users?
2. "Televisa is a Network, working no its own interest, mostly, to keep being the biggest network television. But it is not an opinion Lider. This are diferent things." Nope. Read the book about Azcatrraga and Televisa by Andrew Paxman and Claudia Fernández.
3. When you put in the article "most" of mexican people was agree with Memin, can you provide the source for that statement? And don´t talk about racist laws in Mexico against minorities, but instead saying there was not Jim Crow laws in Mexico it´s dishonesty.

Posmodern2000 (before Posmodern2005)

Sources for slavery comment?

The article says that: "The nature of slavery in mexico and most of south america was actually much crueler and deadlier in nature than American Slavery. For example, because the Spanish could buy slaves at such a low price the conditions were much worse. Often Slaves would not be fed at all and were often worked to death in Mexico's mineral mines. There for the racial influence in Mexico is quite low."

This is very crude writing and seems out of context and it doesn't cite its sources. It seems like an attempt to trivialize slavery, by saying that slavery in the U.S. wasn't as bad as it was in the rest of America. Also what does "There for the racial influence in Mexico is quite low" mean?. As the rest of America except the US, the Mexican population is quite mixed, although it's true that their african ancestry is lower than that of other populations. By the way, my use of America means "The Americas". Leche234 08:58, 2 January 2007.

The paragrah still needa cleaning... It was the ussually the native american who were worked to death in Mexico's mineral mines. At first the black slaves were treated a cruel as the native americans, but after two black revolts, things get a little better. Black towns of running black slaves were allowed to exist. After a time, the free black (or with black ancestry, since there were few black women imported) population grow, and it had a little higger status that the native american. After centuries of mixing, the original black population have integrated into the general population, as a result most mexicans believe that "the racial influence in Mexico is quite low" and that mexico has low black influence. Only in those original black comunities there is a sense of "being black" and in last 20 or 30 years they have tried to form a "black comunity". Most of the people with notorious black ancestry considered themselves as mestizo, or even mulato, instead of black. Since most of the mexican population is considered mestizo, mestizo is sometimes used as a sinonimous of mexican... the racial usues of mexico are complex but very different form the racial isues of the US. While skin color sometimes used as a measure of social status, this is not asociated with race, but more with the diferences between a worker who works in the sun, and someone with a ligheter skin because he does not need to do physical work. Most mexican reject the idea of being considered racist... even if they prefered themselves to have a lighter skin tone...In mexico there are no racial statistics, and race have not recorded in any oficial papaer for almsot two centuries, so people has no way to asert if they have or not black ancestry, but probably most of the mexican would have it Nanahuatzin 08:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Memin Pinguin: The Structural Violence of an Image

See video. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.101.175 (talk) 18:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Marco Polo Hernandez Cuevas: Memín Pinguín: uno de los cómics mexicanos más populares como instrumento para codificar al negro

Las imágenes arquetípicas del color y los mitos raciales correspondientes han tenido un impacto enorme en las relaciones raciales en Hispanoamérica. Por un lado, la asociación del color negro con la fealdad, el pecado, la oscuridad, la inmoralidad, la metáfora maniqueísta, con lo inferior, con el arquetipo del orden más bajo, y por el otro lado el color blanco con lo opuesto de estas cualidades explican en parte las preconcepciones racistas y las imágenes negativas del negro proyectadas—a veces a pesar de las buenas intenciones del autor—en gran parte de la literatura del área. Richard L. Jackson

Los códigos que se inoculan identifican al afroamericano con lo feo, lo torpe, lo idiota, lo procaz, lo maleducado, lo perezoso, lo falso, lo bruto, lo inculto, lo desinformado, etc. Simbolizaciones que entran a fortalecer el inconsciente colectivo racista de la población mestiza, blanca y negra. Eusebio Camacho Hurtado

Memín Pinguín es el personaje central de un cómic mexicano titulado con el mismo nombre. Apareció en 1947 como parte de la revista de historietas ilustradas Pepín donde se le publicó por un año diariamente . Dada su popularidad reapareció en 1964 como un cómic en sí; y bajo el título de Memín Pinguín alcanzó un tiraje semanal de más de doscientos mil ejemplares. A partir de esta reaparición los dibujos son de Sixto Valencia y los argumentos de Yolanda Vargas Dulché (1925-1999). Randy Scott informa que a partir de 1983, Memín Pinguín fue publicado como Memín a secas , para ser distribuido en Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, República Dominicana, Panamá, Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador y Guatemala . La colección de revistas de historietas mexicanas de Michigan State University verifica que los originales de Memín aún se estaban publicando en 1997. En la actualidad, las historias viejas de Memín Pinguín se están republicando semanalmente en México. La creación del personaje es adjudicada a Vargas Dulché. Según Guillermo Aguilera, fundador de la página de Memín en internet, Vargas Dulché concibió la idea de un niño negro como personaje central después de quedar “fascinada por los niños negros” durante su estancia en La Habana, en donde estuvo trabajando como cantante de radio (1). María Julia Guerra ha afirmado que de entre todas las creaciones de Vargas Dulché “triunfó sobre todo un negrito apellidado Pinguín (por ser ‘un pingo’, o sea un diablillo) y llamado ‘Memín’, en alusión a Guillermo de la Parra, el flamante novio de Yolanda” (2) . Memín es la imagen caricaturizada de un “niño” marcadamente negro oscuro que más bien da la impresión de ser un chimpancé. Es cabezón con ojos enormes y anchos, calvo, orejón, de nariz grande chata, y labios claros desmesuradamente gruesos. Sus asentaderas son notables. Tiene el tronco largo y las piernas cortas y zambas. Las manos son muy grandes de palmas claras. Es de pies enormes y lleva zapatos deportivos de lona tipo convers para básquetbol agujerados en las plantas. Viste camiseta de rayas y gorra de béisbol. Para Aguilera, Memín es un:

[n]egrito simpático de edad indefinida, mediocre estudiante de tercero de primaria. [Y que] tiene una sinceridad conmovedora y un alma sin dobleces, pero [que] también es malicioso y hasta tramposo. [Y que] su don [es]: una terrible facilidad para provocar enredos a los que arrastra a sus tres amigos más cercanos: Ernestillo, Carlangas y Ricardo. (1)

La mamá de Memín, Eufrosina, es dibujada siempre con delantal, pañoleta y escandalosas arracadas de plástico. Es una lavandera marcadamente negra oscura, gorda, bonachona (casi inocente), aunque, siempre lista para corregir las diabluras de su hijo con una tabla que tiene un clavo en la punta. Ambos viven solos en una vecindad y son muy pobres. Aquí se expondrá la forma en que el cómic, Memín, es utilizado como instrumento para codificar al mexicano negro y a sus descendientes de color quebrado que hoy, aunque se niegue, son la mayoría de los cien millones de mexicanos dentro y fuera de México. La intención es exhibir el discurso antinegro en Memín como parte del discurso blanqueador del mítico mestizaje cósmico. James Snead explica: “mientras tales representaciones bien pudieran reflejar la opresión anterior de los negros, también tienden a perpetuarla” (142). Frantz Fanon manifiesta que es precisamente el hombre blanco el que inventa al “negro” y su historia: “porque no sólo debe el hombre negro ser negro; debe ser negro con relación al blanco” (110). Memín será examinado con los lentes de Jackson y Snead desde una perspectiva afrocéntrica. El estudio de este producto de la industria cultural , al igual que la literatura y la cinematografía, es necesario porque además de ser un género adicional del discurso contra el negro, es un texto cultural, y un medio de persuasión de masas que, como comentara el mismo Jackson, en un correo electrónico reciente, llega al público en cantidades masivas y quizá cause más daño que la literatura o las películas. Se adoptan los puntos de vista de Jackson y Snead por dos razones inmediatas. La primera es que no se ha encontrado ningún trabajo mexicano acerca de las imágenes del negro en el discurso de nación ni sobre los efectos que esto haya tenido para las varias veintenas de millones de mexicanos (los mestizos, pelados, plebe, chusma, chinaca o raza) en quienes indudablemente late el legado africano. La otra razón, como se verá más adelante, se debe a que la imagen estudiada en este análisis posee una extraordinaria similitud con imágenes racistas del negro en Estados Unidos de América. Respecto a los orígenes del cómic mexicano, Kurt Hollander expone:

Aunque las tiras cómicas no se inventaron en los Estados Unidos, fue en este país donde se distribuyeron masivamente y se exportaron a todo el mundo. Las primeras tiras cómicas que aparecieron en periódicos mexicanos, hacia finales del siglo XIX, eran historietas norteamericanas traducidas al español. Con la llegada de la Revolución y el auge del nacionalismo, las tiras cómicas norteamericanas fueron sustituidas por creaciones locales. La Revolución no solamente facilitó el lanzamiento de los autores locales de historietas (que tenían un público popular creciente gracias a las campañas de alfabetización) sino que también hizo que el contenido y el lenguaje de sus obras se refirieran más a la vida en México, aun si el formato y los estilos eran copiados abiertamente a los vecinos del norte. (2)

Rowe y Schelling concurren que la tira cómica en México empezó a jugar un papel importante para la alfabetización del pueblo durante los años treinta (100). Además, Carlos Monsiváis expone: “[d]e modo coincidente con las campañas de alfabetización de los años cuarenta, el cómic book o historieta establece su imperio duradero sobre el analfabeto funcional...” (36). Y Hollander agrega que las historietas son dirigidas a adultos jóvenes “de clase baja y con poca educación, es decir un sector muy importante de la población” mexicana (2). La meta educativa oficial mexicana, acorde al pensamiento decimonónico latinoamericano de corte eurocéntrico, desde los primeros años de la década de los veinte, mientras se forjaba la nación moderna, fue la de “integrar” a las masas oficializando el lenguaje español. Con un plumazo se constituía un nuevo Otro del "Otro" . El negro mexicano y sus descendientes de color quebrado salían de la colonización y entraban a la globalización . De esta manera y al mismo tiempo el criollo legitimaba su “derecho” al poder ya que era el más blanco de apariencia y manejaba la lengua oficial mejor, por lo regular. Bajo la semblanza de progreso se impuso como prioridad oficial la hispanización de la población. Se lanzó una de las mayores campañas educativas, o de persuasión, en la historia de las culturas, con la meta explícita de erradicar a toda costa la diversidad étnica y lingüística en México, que no fuese europea, por considerársele bárbara. La lengua española fue promovida por todos los canales de persuasión como sinónimo de civilización. Paralelamente, se propagó e institucionalizó una ideología de estética blanca. Cabe recordar que al principio de los veinte, el gobierno mexicano, a través de la Secretaría de Educación Pública, difundió con sello de oficial la ideología de “la raza cósmica” adjudicada a José Vasconcelos, ministro de educación entre 1921 y 1924 . Esta ideología es una forma de pensar de corte evolucionista dentro de la cual, de un lado del espectro en los orígenes del hombre se encuentra el negro y del otro, del lado que se supone que ha evolucionado más, está el blanco. En el México que emergía de la guerra civil de 1910-1920, se hablaban cientos de lenguas de la civilización amerindia, y otras lenguas de las civilizaciones africana y europea, que arribaron con los invasores y sus sometidos. Gilberto Loyo señala que, según Ruiz Cortines en 1926, “México era un ‘mosaico’ formado por grupos sociales con grandes diferencias culturales, sociales y económicas” (22-23). El español, aún después de cuatrocientos años, sólo era la lengua mater de la minoría hispano/criolla en el poder y en la cúspide de la pirámide social y económica. El lenguaje español, durante la colonia y después, había sido utilizado precisamente como vehículo de marginación . Para el primer cuarto del siglo XX, las masas en México hablaban español como segunda lengua. La mayor parte de la población, que respondía a las tradiciones orales, era “analfabeta” en el español, pero estaban siendo persuadidos por varias vías de que el aprender español significaba cuando menos una posibilidad de ascenso en la escala social y un importante paso hacia la civilización, modernidad, o blanqueamiento. Esta es una razón principal por la que los cuentos o revistas de historietas ilustradas tuvieron tanto éxito como vehículo de penetración. Además, las campañas de alfabetización sirvieron como vehículo para la institucionalización de la ideología del blanqueamiento. Para Rowe y Schelling, la circulación masiva de cuentos, al igual que la fotonovela y folletines, corresponde a situaciones donde el tiempo para la lectura es fragmentado y la alfabetización es limitada (111); y acaso también corresponda a una situación socio-histórica poscolonial en donde el deseo de blanqueamiento se encuentre integrado a la sicología de las masas de gente que no son blancas. Dada su capacidad visual, el cuento ilustrado en México se convirtió en uno de los agentes homogeneizadores más eficaces para la transmisión de ideologías de corte eurocéntrico a un público multilingüe con grandes limitaciones en la lengua española. Acorde a Néstor García Canclini, en los años noventa, “en México se publican setenta millones de ejemplares mensualmente y su ganancia es superior a la de libros y revistas en conjunto” (252). Con la supuesta finalidad de “divertir” y “alfabetizar” al pueblo, se empezó a penetrar la memoria histórica con el objeto de homogeneizar el pensamiento de los lectores. Por este canal de persuasión, al igual que por otros, se empezó a implantar la ilusión de que sólo existía una historia. Así, se instituyó la negación por omisión de la existencia de muchas otras cosmovisiones en México. Cosmovisiones como las de las mezclas, las de las diversas primeras naciones, las de las diversas culturas africanas y las asiáticas. Rowe y Schelling señalan, que este tipo de ilusión “suprime las discrepancias entre las disímiles historias vividas por diferentes grupos de seres humanos”. Advierten que “la memoria histórica es una acción cultural vital en la producción y conservación de tales diferencias y [que] la destrucción de la memoria es una estrategia primordial de dominio” (228). Las imágenes y los textos de Memín Pinguín, Memín Pingüín y Memín contienen y promueven un gran desprecio hacia el negro. Al igual que en la cinematografía hollywoodense estudiada por Snead, estas imágenes y lenguaje se enlazan con otras imágenes y con otros símbolos inyectados en la memoria colectiva desde la llegada de los españoles a América hasta nuestros días. Las imágenes de este “negrito” y su “bonachona” madre reintroducen, reproducen y refuerzan las preconcepciones de que el negro es la perfidia. La presentación de ambos personajes bajo condiciones que no distan mucho de la situación en la que estuviera el negro durante la colonia, los congela dentro del atraso a pesar de los cambios históricos, culturales, sociales y económicos, propiciados por el negro mexicano y sus mezclas. A través de Memín y Eufrosina se marca y mitifica al negro y a su descendencia; se mitifica al blanco y se niega el holocausto negro, Maafa, en México al igual que en otras partes. La manera en que se caricaturiza al negro en Memín, por un lado hace que la línea del color parezca más dramática de lo que es, y por el otro, hace aparecer más prominentes las diferencias entre las características del negro y del blanco en la mente del individuo susceptible a la persuasión de la estética blanca. El resultado de esta marcación sugiere una relación entre negro/simio y blanco/hombre. Para el lector enajenado, este ejercicio no es complicado ya que dentro de su memoria colonizada existen implantados una serie de estereotipos del negro que se conectan automáticamente ahí, alejados de toda realidad. Según Camacho Hurtado “[e]l manejo que los autores de la narrativa dan a Memín, es la identificación de éste con el simio, con lo feo, horrible, espeluznante” (91). En Memín, se reintroducen, reproducen y refuerzan los mitos de la superioridad del blanco y la inferioridad del negro y las gentes de color quebrado, castas, mezclas o mestizos. El personaje Ricardo, el más blanco de los tres amigos de Memín, es rubio, alto, bien proporcionado, pulcro, inteligente, valiente, mesurado, buen hijo, responsable y vive en un hogar integrado y económicamente desahogado. Mientras tanto, Memín, el más negro de todos los niños, pertenece a un hogar desintegrado, paupérrimo, lleno de superstición, amor-crueldad e ignorancia, y es el más bruto, ingenuo y carente de valor civil. El papá de Ricardo, epítome del "prejuicio de no tener prejuicios" , es un "euromestizo" rico que fuma pipa y posee un entendimiento superior. A pesar de la objeción de su esposa, es tan "comprensivo" y "bueno" como para compartir la mesa con los amigos pobres de su hijo. Es un hombre capaz de darse cuenta de que “la falta de hogar es lo que tiene hundidos en la miseria” a los amigos de su hijo (Camacho 128). La mamá de Ricardo es rubia, femenina, inteligente, esbelta, pulcrísima, buena madre y compañera. En Memín no aparece ningún negro o afromestizo prominente. El negro queda estereotipado y codificado en el atraso “racial”, social, político y económico mediante la omisión. Los otros amigos de Memín: Carlangas (quien posee características africanas) y Ernestillo (un mestizo-casi-blanco) son más inteligentes, respetuosos y estudiosos que Memín. Ambos lo llaman “negro” y lo tratan como subordinado. Desde la perspectiva adoptada en esta investigación, la imagen del negro en Memín Pinguín deshumaniza al negro mexicano, y lo despoja de su historia “atándola a un espacio de violencia estructural, donde su imagen es deformada brutalmente” como me lo señalara Johnny Webster (Webster). Al igual que las violentas imágenes del “picaninny” o Sambo intentan minimizar el sufrimiento del negro en los Estados Unidos de América, Memín trivializa la experiencia del negro en México. La caricatura de Memín (un Sambo o picaninny) y la de su madre Eufrosina (una Mammy) son réplicas de personajes estadounidense de la época de Jim Crow . Según David Pilgrim,

Los picaninnies han sido representados en la cultura material con un color de piel que va de medio oscuro al negro oscuro—los picaninnies de piel clara son raros—.[...] a menudo los niños son pelones, y sus cabezas brillan como el metal. Los niños tienen ojos grandes y anchos y bocas anormalmente grandes...”. ("The Picaninny" 3)

Por su parte, Chris Booker citando a Joseph Boskin señala:

Sambo fue un tipo extraordinario de control social, a la vez extremamente sutil, artero, y abarcador. El ejercer un alto grado de control significa también poder manipular la gama completa del sentido del humor; el crear finalmente un tipo insidioso de bufón. El hacer del hombre negro un objeto de burla, y a la inversa, forzarlo a inventar la burla, significó el desvestirlo de masculinidad, dignidad, y posesión de sí. Sambo entonces es una ilustración del humor como vehículo de opresión, y uno de los más potentes de la cultura popular estadounidense. La meta final de los blancos era ejercer dominio: incapacitar al hombre negro como guerrero, como competencia sexual, y como adversario económico. (8)

La importación abierta de estereotipos del negro a México es menos asombrosa si se considera que: “[d]esde el principio es norteamericano el modelo sobre el que operan los medios masivos de comunicación en América Latina"; que desde el “principio de siglo se introducen las tiras cómicas [a México]”; y que “los empresarios mexicanos, mezclando el aprendizaje comercial y el ánimo colonizado, eligen como primeros socios, planificadores y consejeros de la industria cultural a norteamericanos” (Monsiváis 30-31). Debe quedar claro que el racismo mexicano arraigado en el mito de la pureza de sangre (aunque en la actualidad se nutra en parte con ideologías importadas), data desde el principio de la colonia, cuando menos. Lo que interesa resaltar es que la imagen del negro en Memín parece ser un plagio de la imagen del “Sambo” o “picaninny” estadounidense: una cosmovisión supremacista blanca, que desde mediados de los sesenta se tornaba ilegal en los Estados Unidos de América. Con respecto a la representación del negro en la cultura popular mexicana, Jameelah S. Muhammad subraya que desde el inicio del dominio español, los negros y sus descendientes “han sido representados en la cultura popular en una gama de estereotipos ofensivos”. Añade que los negros en la actualidad son presentados de la manera más distorsionada “en la televisión, y sobre todo en cómics que al parecer muchos mexicanos disfrutan”. Identifica a Memín Pinguín como un ejemplo de la representación negativa del negro en México, señala que es “la caricatura de un muchacho afro-hispano que es acosado dada su fealdad física” (176-177). Refiriéndose a la mujer mexicana visiblemente negra, Muhammad expone que no existe información específica acerca de su condición, pero indica que “la manera en que son representadas en la cultura popular mexicana provee una idea sobre algunos de los problemas que las confrontan” (177). Muhammad observa que:

las mujeres afromexicanas por lo regular trabajan como cocineras, servidumbre y ayudantes domésticas. De la misma manera que el hombre negro, son vistas como objetos de servidumbre: gordas, sin educación, analfabetas, pobres, y hablantes de un español ininteligible (177).

Asimismo, apunta que “la mujer negra en México parece no poder deshacerse del mito de estar hipersexuadas” (177). Lo paradójico de Memín y su contenido contra la gente que no son blancas, es que de acuerdo a la ley de censuras promulgada desde el 11 de marzo de 1944, basada en las normas oficiales escritas por un grupo de abogados de la Secretaría de Educación Pública, debía censurarse cualquier historieta que, entre otras acciones, provocara “desprecio al pueblo de México, sus actitudes, costumbres, tradiciones, [e] historia...” (Hollander 3). Así, como se mencionó al inicio de este capítulo, Memín Pinguín, con su contenido racista, ha reaparecido por todos lados en México con autorización de la Comisión Calificadora de Publicaciones y Revistas Ilustradas con "Certificado de Licitud de Título número 11816, de fecha 11 de diciembre 2001" y "Certificado de Licitud de Contenido número 8420, de fecha 11 de diciembre 2001". El capital étnico africano multinacional integra en parte fundamental a la mexicanidad desde el inicio del mestizaje. Así lo verifican la mayoría de la población de México que es morena o de color quebrado, la música, la comida, el baile, el lenguaje y las imágenes más populares de lo mexicano como la del chinaco convertido en charro y la china, entre otras . El racismo contra el niño marcadamente negro y hacia los negros y sus descendientes es patente en el cómic Memín Pinguín de la misma manera que otras gamas del mismo discurso racista en todo el continente Americano. Memín se publicó por décadas, y se publica, convirtiéndose en instrumento para codificar al negro en México. Memín Pinguín, al ser examinado con el lente Jackson-Snead y con la luz de Frantz Fanon, revela una profunda insensibilidad, camuflada de ignorancia (hay quienes insisten que “es de cariño”), hacia la gente que no es "blanca", y con particular saña contra los niños y mujeres marcadamente negros, que desde el punto de vista afrocéntrico no es sino degradante y abusiva. Memín y la ideología que lo produce, reducen al mexicano que no es blanco y en particular a aquel de apariencia marcadamente negra, a una grotesca caricatura mediante la cual se justifica, en las meras mentes de las víctimas, la privación de derechos económicos, políticos y civiles, entre otros, de la cual han sido objeto desde la época colonial. En otro ámbito Eusebio Camacho Hurtado, que analiza a Memín en el contexto social colombiano, estudia la codificación del negro mediante el cómic como medio de comunicación de masas. Expone las imágenes negativas del negro y las privaciones a las que se le ha sujetado mediante éstas y subraya los daños que causan a toda la sociedad colombiana. Valiéndose de Sigmund Freud, explica que el sentido del humor puede ser limpio y que al producirse como autocrítica puede servir de alguna manera para ventilar ciertas frustraciones. Pero también indica que, como en el caso de Memín, el humor puede provenir de afuera del grupo y llevar como finalidad el denigrar, ofender, ridiculizar, minimizar, emascular, o sea, el atacar al otro. Camacho Hurtado declara:

Es evidente que el humor [anti-negro], ya sea mediante los chistes, los dramas, los cómics, los dibujos animados y las caricaturas, es ridiculizante, deshumanizante, deshonroso y de ataque a los afroamericanos. Es la verdad comprobada al no existir mecanismos de censura moral o legal que lo impidan en estos países, a pesar de tener legislaciones que formalmente protegen la dignidad y honra de los ciudadanos sin distingo de raza, religión y color político etc. (69)

El lector mexicano de Memín Pinguín, analfabeta en la lengua y medios con los que se le seduce, fue penetrado con una ideología de corte criollo que reintroduce y refuerza códigos coloniales. Así, el mestizo mexicano queda convencido de que encarna a un ser cósmico; y es incapaz de reconocerse como moreno. Queda obsesionado con ser blanco. Aprende a auto-flagelarse sicológicamente por no ser blanco y a negarse y a negar con odio su componente negro, incluso en público. El mestizo aprendió a “entretenerse” con las injurias de corte criollo, contra la parte de su ser que no es blanca, que caracterizan al discurso racista de nación de “la fase cultural de la Revolución Mexicana”. El mestizo llegó a creer fanáticamente que el mestizaje lo limpiaba de “impurezas” raciales. Memín no retrataba el humor crítico del negro hacia el negro; pero sí enseñaba al mestizo a burlarse del negro como si fuera el Otro. Memín ha sido un medio más para enseñar al mestizo a renegar a todo aquello, dentro y fuera de él, que no sea blanco. La memoria popular colectiva mexicana es persuadida con este cómic de que la población mestiza se encuentra en un proceso de blanqueamiento, el cual en un futuro no muy lejano, “liberará” al mexicano de las cadenas del "pasado". Refuerza lo que se ha venido aseverando: que hay que “mejorar la raza” y eliminar las “impurezas” raciales, y deshacerse a toda costa de las características negras, indígenas y asiáticas, entre otras características que no sean blancas, que de hecho son las principales características del mestizo mexicano de ayer y de hoy. José Vasconcelos utilizó a la Secretaría de Educación Pública como vehículo para propagar las ideas que representaba, e hizo creer a la vasta mayoría de los mexicanos que no eran blancos (y que no lo son ni podrán serlo dentro de esa mentalidad) que la única manera de ingresar a México a la modernidad era mediante su blanqueamiento físico y cultural. Según el credo de la raza cósmica, al hispanizarse o blanquearse, las mezclas se limpiarían de la mala sangre, se embellecerían, se civilizarían y superarían su condición de infames. En otras palabras, pasarían a ser seres superiores. Los mestizos no pudieron darse cuenta cómo eran penetrados con el mensaje de una tal supremacía blanca cuyo objetivo inmediato, al terminar la fase armada de la Revolución, fue la usurpación del poder. De esta manera, los criollos quedaban justificados, al parecer por designio natural, como los lógicos herederos de las riendas de la nación moderna. Después de todo ¿no eran los criollos el prototipo de la belleza y civilización? Estas ideas eurocéntricas sirvieron como vehículo para acomplejar más al mestizo mexicano. Las imágenes denigrantes de la gente de color como la de Memín y otras, que plagaron todas las colonias europeas en América desde antes de Vasconcelos y después, fueron institucionalizadas y propagadas con carácter de oficial durante la fase cultural de la Revolución por canales de persuasión masiva como el cómic. Mediante este vehículo de persuasión de masas, el negro y todos sus descendientes de siglos de color quebrado, o sea la mayoría de la población mexicana (y latinoamericana), quedaban codificados en las mentes susceptibles de la población mexicana. Así, el mexicano quedaba “educado” y “alfabetizado” al punto de hacerlo creerse producto de una mezcla de razas inferiores y a creer que todas las lenguas y culturas no europeas eran inferiores también. “Como causa de esta violencia estructural” (Webster), el mestizo mexicano aprendió a desconocer lo indígena, negro y asiático de su ser. Asimismo, aprendió a exaltar su herencia hispana o criolla, y hasta inventarse algún pariente blanco en algunos casos, aunque sabía que era hijo ilegítimo de una madre morena vejada y que el chingón, o violador de su madre y de su mente, de acuerdo a la misma historia oficial, era el blanco del que tanto se ufanaba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.101.175 (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

To Many of Us He's Not Offensive

When the first controversy emerged in mid 2005 blacks on this side of the border barely found out that such character existed (Memin). Many blacks (On this side) later bitched about it. You see the thing here is that why did African-Americans get us wrong ? Well to me their point of view is just ignorant. Memin isn't even African-American ... he's Afro-Cuban / Afro-Mexican (According to the story), and beloved by many as far as El Salvador, Venezuela, Cuba (Castro himself is a comic book collectionist and among his pile, Memin), India etc.etc. On each and every one of the story booklets he always makes new friends and saves the day. On July 5th, 2008 a Houston woman (She was African-American) went shopping at a local Wal-Mart on South Post Oak (located in South Houston) and was just looking around randomly but it was until she got to the Spanish language stands was it that she had noticed that the Memin comics were actually being sold. She wasted no time and went to the location's manager, asked him if the store could remove the "Controversial" comic. When she got the manager's answer - "Not at the moment", she then phoned loud mouth "Activist" Quanell X. The comics were still on stands as of Monday afternoon (July 7th, 2008).

Actually they were pulled, eventually. And on a personal note, the argument that Memin (or any number of other characters that use darky iconography) are "positive" because the stories themselves may feature redeeming moral lessons, doesn't exactly wash. Whats offensive and insulting is the stereotyped look and physical actions of the character. There are any number of "Good" and "Well-behaved" darky characters in American stories, but hardly anyone these days would hold them up as a positive role model or example for flesh and blood African-American children, for the obvious reason that the image (of a monkey looking child) is NOT THEM. There is nothing "Afro-Mexican" or "African" at all about Memin as a character; he's a Sambo type character, and in no way represents real, living people, just like Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben don't.

The argument made on the page, also, that Mexico is a beacon of racial harmony also rings amazingly hollow. Anyone whose kept up on the Mexican governments treatment of indigenous groups and those on the lower end of the economic spectrum (whom are predominantly mixed blood or Afro-Mexican) can see that its record isn't too great. If it is, as it were, why don't we see a comparable political candidate like Barack Obama in Mexico? Presumably thats what the comic book issue in question dealt with. So one has to wonder, if Mexico, as vaguely asserted in the article, is a paragon of racial harmony above and beyond sections of the United States, why is that the US is the one with the minority candidate that everyone is talking about? SiberioS (talk) 17:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Please, remember that Mexico, unlike the US, already have had presidents of black ancestry and indian ancestry. The point is that Mexico is not a beacon of racial harmony, but that our racial issues are diferent, since 80% of mexican are a racial mix, composed of indian, white, and black ancestry. In Mexico, have a darker skin is not perceived as being from an "inferior race", but to be poor. Is not about race, but about class. The old Caste system, somehow is still with us. Weak, but alive. Memin is a caricature, taken out of context, in both ways. Nanahuatzin (talk) 06:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

I question this article's neutrality. It seems to be very defensive/oblivious of any racial issues and not give much weight to criticism. The sections on controversy seem biased.KaJunl (talk) 13:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Additional articles

• "Mexicans taken aback by racial stir over stamps". Houston Chronicle. 2005-07-01.
• Stratton, Neil (2008-07-09). "After Houston complaint, Wal-Mart pulls Mexico comic". Houston Chronicle.
• "Outrage After Wal-Mart Sells Racist Mexican Comic Books". Fox News. 2008-07-08.

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)