Talk:Memphis, Egypt

Location

"It occupied a strategic position at the mouth of the Nile delta". No it didn't. It was at the head of the Nile delta.

Population

It is difficult and sometimes even impossible to rank the world´s top five largest cities in ancient times. The Chandler list [1] is based on some very general assumptions.--JFK 12:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It is believed that Memphis was the largest city in the world from its foundation until around 2250 BC and from 1557 to 1400 BC. Its population was over 30,000.

Removed until verified. --JFK 11:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the figure stating that Memphis' population was 30,000 is correct, nor the satement about it being by far the largest settlement in 3000 BC. Ancient Egypt of the Pre-Dynastic, Early Dynastic, and Old Kingdom was made up of rather small "cities" believed to be around 5,000 to 10,000 in population at the largest. Cities in Mesopotamia were far larger, like Uruk c.3000BC with population estimates at around 50,000. I understand that there is much debate and difficulty in coming up with population figures concerning such ancient sites, but I really don't think this the data presented in the article is what research supports. Also, the article says Memphis was the ancient capital of the first nome of Lower Egypt, and of the Old Kingdom of Egypt from its foundation until around 1300 BC which isn't right either. --Melancholia i 21:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The information about Memphis being the largest settlement seems to come from Tertius Chandler's Four Thousand Years of Urban Growth: An Historic Census. The stimate of 30,000 still seems a bit high, and Memphis being the largest city until 1300 BC would still be false.--Melancholia i 21:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Capital

There is a claim that memphis was capital until 1300 B.C. What is the basis for this claim? Memphis ceased to be capital with the end of the old kingdom in about 2200. After the first intermediate period, the capitals changed to hieracontopolis and thebes, then to thebes alone, then to avaris, then back to thebes, and then 1300 rolled about. Thanatosimii 02:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Depends of what definition you make use of; the article capital says: "the principal city or town associated with its government". Egyptologists have used another unspoken definition: Where the pharaoh built his tomb and mortuary monuments. In reality the pharaoh and his government resided in several capitals. Middle Kingdom: Itjtawy, Memphis, Thebes. New Kingdom: Akhetaten, Memphis, Pi-Ramesses, Thebes. However, I do not quite understand why the start of the 19th Dynasty in 1300 BC is giving as the "end" of Memphis´ capital status.--JFK 11:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Menes of Tanis?

How is it that the First Dynasty city of Memphis is described as being built by Menes of Tanis, when the Wikipedia article on Tanis states that that city was built in the Twentieth Dynasty? Another city of the same name?

--Ziusudra 12:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Menes of Tanis is flat out wrong. It is likely that Menes never even existed. Besides this, Menes was said to be from Upper Egypt, not the Delta (where Tanis is located). The earliest Egyptian kings are associated with Hierkonpolis (I think) and Abydos in the south.

--Tom

Deleted external links

External link or links have recently been deleted by User:Calton as "horrible Tripod pages which add little information, are full of ads, and fail WP:EL standards." No better external links were substituted. Readers may like to judge these deleted links for themselves, by opening Page history. --Wetman 15:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Other names

there is also a memphis tenessee which is in the united states. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.90.216 (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeh, so? I don't see how that should have any mention in this article. --Sauronjim (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

what about da map??? the didn't include a map :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by Happykook101 (talk • contribs) 01:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is "Memphis" automatically redirected to Memphis, Tenessee? Manf was the original city and Memphis, Tenessee is named for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.235.150.190 (talk) 00:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

USA-style neglect of history and anything outside USA... СЛУЖБА (talk) 08:48, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

See Philadelphia and Philadelphia, Turkey. Just like Philadelphia, PA Memphis, TN is a city of around 700K people and is a current hub of technology and culture. Much like Philadelphia, Turkey; Memphis, Egypt is just a small city in the middle of the desert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.247.188 (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Redirect

Memphis currently redirects here, despite the Memphis, TN article saying Memphis redirects to that page. I have to assume that one of the many people who are upset about Wikipedia's policy of having Memphis redirect to Memphis, TN, changed it without knowledge of the administrators, because I cannot find any discussion where it was agreed to move it. Someone should probably change the redirect so it will go to Memphis, TN again, as that seems to be the official Wikipedia decision.J'onn J'onzz (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

The destruction of the city by the Arabs

On tourist trips I was told that the city was dismantled in the eighth and ninth century to build CairoEricl (talk)

Location

"A Russian archaeological mission working in Mit Rahina discovered part of the white wall of Memphis city, the first capital of ancient Egypt, in addition to a number of ovens for manufacturing pottery and bronze tools ... The mission will continue excavation works at the site in an effort to find the remaining part of the wall, head of the mission said. Memphis was the ancient capital of Aneb-Hetch, the first name of Lower Egypt. Its ruins are located near the town of Mit Rahina, 20km south of Cairo."

References

Colosus

Needs some "fair" explanation of weight, construction, transportation...--81.39.104.252 (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

"Memphis"

The use of "Memphis" is under discussion, see Talk:Memphis (disambiguation)#Requested move 4 September 2018. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:05, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

About the native name of Memphis given on the infobox

I noticed that the infobox section with the native name of Memphis says "menes". Indeed, king Menes founded the city, but was it named after him? Plus, this name is not mentioned in the main article. 89.210.99.172 (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 12 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved per WP:SNOW. (closed by non-admin page mover) Nohomersryan (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

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• Memphis, Egypt → Memphis
• Memphis → Memphis (disambiguation)

This title is more likely to be WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME. The Houndsworth (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose although I was the nom of the RM at Talk:Memphis#Requested move 4 September 2018 removing the primary topic redirect to the Tennessee one, I don't think I would go as far as saying the Egypt city is primary. There is no clear primary topic so keep the DAB at the base name. Although its common to treat the state as part of the name given the Tennessee city gets 43,611 views compared to 19,485 for the Egyptian one[[2]] I don't think we can say readers are much more likely to be looking for it. The Tennessee one also has modern long-term significance due to its current size and history with music such as Elvis, while the Egyptian one is the original I don't think that that is enough. Google, and Books only appear to show Tennessee and Images shows nearly all results for Tennessee. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Fails PRECISE. Hurts RECOGNIZABILITY. Does not improve CONCISE because discarding information is brevity not concision. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support It does work only used in ancient Egyptian city, excluding the city in Tennessee (after ancient Egyptian namesake of Memphis), which "Nashville", is redirected to "Nashville, Tennessee". --The Houndsworth (talk) 11:55, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

  That's because the city in Tennessee is the primary topic for "Nashville" even though common use is to have the state in the title similarly for Tanis the primary topic is the city in Egypt. There's no primary topic for Memphis so the DAB should be at the base name. If this Memphis didn't exist then Memphis would (as it was until 2018) be a redirect to the city in Tennessee just like Nashville. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The Egyptian place is definitely not the primary by page views so the current setup should be kept. It also makes sure that any accidental links get fixed and not left unnoticed. --Gonnym (talk) 12:16, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, no primary. Current daily views average 928 for the Egyptian city and 2,077 for the Tennessee city. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose (strongly), no primary topic. This will also create a WHOLE bunch of accidental links to the wrong page, which are easier to find with the current setup with the disambiguation page at the basename. Paintspot Infez (talk) 13:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Weak Support there is only a clear primary topic, but only one. As for WP:ANCIENTEGYPT, this article about the ancient Egyptian site is also be as a common name. But also as for WP:USCITY in Tennessee, Memphis could be as the second largest city, but not for a common name. But in case, there will be a consensus. --The Houndsworth (talk) 14:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Stop voting for your own proposal. -- Calidum 14:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

According to the WP:RM guidelines, "Nomination already implies that the nominator supports the name change, and nominators should refrain from repeating this recommendation on a separate bulleted line". Paintspot Infez (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

The common name isn't the same thing as primary topic, although the common name for US cities is to include the state that doesn't mean that they aren't also commonly searched/referred to without the state. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:52, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support as the current title is too US-centric. Khestwol (talk) 14:30, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
  • How is the current title US-centric? --Gonnym (talk) 15:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree it was US-centric to have the redirect from the unqualified name pointing to the Tennessee city but its neutral to have no PT. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:52, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. No indication has been given as to why the Egyptian city is the primary topic. The city in Tennessee gets three times as many page views [3]. -- Calidum 14:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose clearly not the primary topic. MarnetteD|Talk 15:58, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose we do not need more wikiWP:BIAS blindlynx (talk) 17:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - There is no primary topic. - BilCat (talk) 18:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose move. The Egyptian city is not the primary topic. O.N.R. ^(talk) 20:01, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• For the record, User:The Houndsworth has been blocked as a sock per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SwissArmyGuy. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 20:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 22 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No move, early close per WP:SNOW. Nothing has changed since this was last proposed. If a new RM is ever opened, please use a new rationale other than "Egypt was first". (non-admin closure) SnowFire (talk) 05:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

---

• Memphis, Egypt → Memphis
• Memphis → Memphis (disambiguation)

– This Memphis was the first city named “Memphis”, and most people outside of America think of Memphis as the city in Egypt, if Americans want to see the Memphis in their state, the can look at “Memphis (disambiguation)”. ShivanshPlays1 (talk) 22:57, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per my reasoning last time. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:07, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. This was snow-closed last time, and I don't imagine anything has changed. OP's justification for the move (that the Egyptian city was "the first city named Memphis") is specifically refuted at WP:DPT. 162 etc. (talk) 23:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and snowclose, there's no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:23, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose move. Being first doesn't make the Egyptian city primary. O.N.R. ^(talk) 00:15, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and Snow close - There's no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Probably time for a moratorium, as the last one was a year ago, and this is not likely to ever change. BilCat (talk) 00:35, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose (strongly) and WP:SNOW close —  there's no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name. Additionally, this will also create a WHOLE bunch of accidental links to the wrong page, which are easier to find with the current setup with the disambiguation page at the basename. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:25, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose there are modern cities that are named Memphis such as in Tennessee. WatABR (talk) 03:05, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Debate over the Location of Memphis

Description de l'Égypte: Memphis et environs. Plan général de l'emplacement de Memphis et des environs

The points raised in this 2003 article need to be incorporated in this article:

"Questioning the Location of the Old Kingdom Capital of Memphis, Egypt". Volume 14. 14 (0). UCL Press. 2003-11-15. doi:10.5334/pia.201. ISSN 2041-9015.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Specifically:

• The term "Memphis" was used inconsistently in Egyptology for a long time, meaning that care must be taken when using older works
• There is a modern scholarly debate on the location of Memphis, specifically whether it is just Mit Rahina or a wider location stretching all the way to Giza.

This can be seen best by looking at this map from the Description de l'Égypte, the foundational work of modern Egyptology. It includes two references to Memphis, one in the top left corner "Pyramids of Giza or of Memphis" and one in the bottom center "Ruins of Memphis" at the location of Mit Rahina.

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:16, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Transliteration of Egyptian names

I have removed the two "transliterations" ⲙⲟⲩⲛ ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ and ϩⲱ ⲭⲟ ⲡⲑⲁϩ which had been added by an IP-address-only user (so, unfortunately, I could not reach out first). These are not transliterations because the hieroglyphs do not indicate vowels. A Coptic transliteration of the first would be ⲙⲛ ⲛϥⲣ. Rather than transliterations, these are projections forward of how the old name of the city may have sounded like in Coptic. This is, however, entirely speculative and could easily be confused with a real attested name by a casual reader. Referencing the Coptic WP incubator is not a good source, in my mind, because, as much as I like it, any neologisms there are still essentially conlangs, not really attested forms (unless they get adopted at some point in the future by a broad consensus outside WP). If I am wrong and these are actually attested in Coptic please make sure to provide a historical source for that before restoring. Thanks! MikuChan39 (talk) 05:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Why is there "w" in w/Memphis

W/Memphis 113.199.229.197 (talk) 05:43, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Royal Residence = Capital?

Sometimes it is implied that Memphis was the capital for dynasties 1-6, other times just for dynasties 3-6 (Old Kingdom only). Or was it the royal residence for dynasties 1-6, but capital for dynasties 3-6 ? cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 14:19, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Capital during Dynasties 1 & 2

Was Memphis the capital during dynasties 1 & 2 ? i.e. straight after unification? cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 15:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Tried to remove all the inconsistencies. Was capital immediately after unification. cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 16:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)