Talk:Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Identities

The text claims that Me 163A V4 had the Stammkennnzeichen KE+SW, but the image caption next to it claims it shows the Me 163A V1 with those Stkz. William Green's Rocket Fighter also captions the KE+SW individual as the V1. I don't think the Stkz. would have been reused for the V4, or does anyone know something to the contrary? 83.250.197.97 10:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Flight Duration

The flight duration under performance is said to be 8 minutes. Are you sure this is correct? I would say the engine burn time might be that, but it would be able to glide after that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.199.252 (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Angle and Climb Speed

Did it really climb at an angle of 80 degrees after takeoff? That's practically vertical, straight up. TomD22 15:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I have a source from a Luftwaffe pilot here stating a 45 degree climb after traveling horizontal to reach 725kmph. He explains that he reached 10km in 2 min 45 sec, and there are several charts with similar average climb speeds (his comes out to about 60m/s, there is an official chart averaging 58m/s. Why is it listed at 160m/s in the article? It's incredibly misleading. - G

Splitting off japanese variants

The data for the Japanese variant should either be condensed (the same dimensions are repeated for each variant) or moved to a seperate article. For some reason, the original text used 'grider' instead of 'glider' in a number of spots, was this some sort of joke? Or just an unfortunate translation? Fixed.

Most likely not a joke. Native Japanese speakers often confuse "r" and "l" when speaking in English, and as a result misspell English words in the same way. The "grider" rendering may have been written by a Japanese. Former colleagues who frequently went on business trips to Japan would stop in at the "Backus Rounge" in Ipponmatsu, as the sign in front proclaimed. We would spell it "Lounge". —Quicksilver^{T @} 17:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Questions

Quoting first line in this article: "The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was the only operational rocket fighter aircraft."

Is this true? .. What of the Messerschmitt 262 and such ?

I believe the difference is between a rocket engine and a jet engine. The Me 262 and similar planes used jet engines.

Totally correct, jet engines versus rocket are night and day. The opening sentence is correct.Chairboy 02:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have heard that not only landing was problematic. The engine had also a habit for blowing up without any reason. Can someone verify this?

The engine wasn't the issue as much as carrying volatile fuels that exploded upon contact. I have a video on the Komet with Luftwaffe training footage showing C-Stoff being dripped into a bucket of T-Stoff. Each drop caused a sizeable fireball. Obviously, the demonstrator was wearing heavy asbestos gloves! I could see a cupful of fuel causing enough of an explosion (esp. in a confined area) to blow the aircraft apart. Oydman 11:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The Messerschmitt 163 was an interceptor not a fighter. Also, a rocket engine and a jet engine are basically the same concept in this case. And if you want to go off rocket fighters, the Japanese had a rocket fighter entitled Oka, which was intended for kamikaze's. The German's also devoloped a different rocket fighter, the Natter, which was designed to ram the tails of B-17c bombers. And on the exploding issue, that is true. The pilot was surrounded by volitile materials and if he breathed to heavily or heaved his body then there was some possibility of combustion. Also, sometimes the fuels burning would ignite the cockpit and consume the aircraft.

Couple of misconceptions in the above paragraph. Jets and Rockets are different, and the opening sentence is accurate. Second, an interceptor is a subset of a 'Fighter'. Third, the Natter never entered service. There was a single manned flight, and the pilot was killed.Chairboy 02:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Jet=Air Burning, Rocket=Self-Contained oxidizer, requires no air Oydman 11:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the pilot was surrounded by volatile materials in the 'B' version (Komet) especially, the tanks for one part of the fuel mixture were either side and below him, with fuel feeds behind the bulkhead at head level. No, it is ridiculous to suggest an aircraft designed for combat be at risk of explosion due to the pilot breathing too heavily! The numerous explosions were a result of the extreme volatility of the fuels when mixed, which often occurred in an uncontrolled way e.g. leakage. Even landings risked the plane exploding - the fuel tanks were 'empty' but still a residual amount of the two fuels remained - and a landing that ended up damaging the plane would sometimes be fatal. --Soop62 21:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

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I heard there is Komet somewhere in Europe or US that is being put to full flight condition with rocket engine (just like in WWII) for the purpose of airshow aerobatics and display flights - sounds really interseting! Does anyone have a link to project website or more info on when it's gonna fly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.249.63.227 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 25 June 2005

ok, here it is, I found a link http://www.xcor.com/me163.html

maby someone can put the link to main page? This seems to be the only known project of putting the Komet to flying condition (a full replica) + some modern modifications —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.249.63.227 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 25 June 2005

Please sign your messages with ~~~~ to cut down on confusion. I'm not familiar with the one you're mentioning, but XCOR lists this as a future plan, except it'll be a new aircraft instead of a restored 163. See http://www.xcor.com/me163.html for more. Maybe someone/me should write up a blurb about this if it's substantial/likely to happen? Chairboy 23:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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The Walter R-1-203 cold engine is mentioned in this article and in the one for the ME-263. Does nayone have enough info on that engine to create an article (or even a stub)? Kevin/Last1in 17:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Operations

A good source is Rocket Fighter, Mano Ziegler's memoir of his time as a test pilot for the Me 163 development program. His book describes development, flight test, pilot training and air combat techniques. The book is out of print, and even a paperback copy may cost close to US$100, if you can find one. It was originally published in German under the title Raketenjäger Me 163. I read the book around 1990, and some of my contributions to this article today are based on what I remember. Quicksilver 08:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

• If you can read German try to order it through www.amazon.de, costs around 6 Euro's secondhand.Dirk P Broer 20:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
  • And around $10 through the secondhand department of www.amazon.com(and that's the English translation for you).Dirk P Broer 20:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I read a dutch translation of Mano Ziegler's book around 1972 and seem to remember he claims in it to have broken the sound-barrier in an Me-163. Can anyone confirm this? It would certainly mean the oldest claim of Mach-1 flight (Though in a dive), even older than several claims that have been made for an Me-262. 81.244.207.165 (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately many such claims are unlikely to be true simply because of what is known as position error, and because of the shock wave that attaches to an object when it approaches Mach 1. Thus any indicated airspeed is likely to be incorrect.

Unless the airspeed measuring system on the aircraft is designed for speeds up to, and over, the speed of sound, (such as the system used with a Mach Meter) then any such claim is unreliable. Then, the only reliable indication of exceeding Mach 1 is an audible sonic boom, which is usually noticeable by everyone on the ground within several miles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.189 (talk) 17:59, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Video of the flipping thing!

Hi:

Look at what I found: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ME163+Komet

Is this it? --69.157.184.139 15:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

It sure is! It would be interesting to find out how the contributor of the video came by it, details of when and where the film was shot, and if it would be possible to post a copy on Wikimedia. --Quicksilver^{T @} 02:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

A DVD of the Komet is available at http://www.rocket.aero/me163.html

As of Nov 2 2016, there is a comprehensive video documentary, including precursors, development, variants, takeoffs, landings, fuel self-igniting, operational footage/history and Me 163 successors, at https://vimeo.com/3061727. Ian Page (talk) 17:15, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Why it didn't do more for their war

The combat record sounds like they did more damage than their losses. In principle, they had already lost the war before it started, by firing their Jewish physicists, who went to the U.S. and worked on the atomic bomb. By 1944 there was no rational hope. I read that at the end of the war Lippisch was in Czechoslovakia, working on a (powdered) coal burning, supersonic fighter. Even that would not have helped. Actually, the 163 may have hurt their war effort by taking development effort and H2O2 away from submarines. None ever considered such decisions rationally. That they fought so well is a monument to how much workers (including engineers) and soldiers can accomplish without much help from leadership. David R. Ingham 06:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

As an engineer, I can vouch for that. We often succeed in spite of management. ;-) —Quicksilver^{T @} 04:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

{By coincidence, my first experience in Germany had a similar aspect. Our leader, Claus Mayer-Böricke, made a negative contribution (like some other leaders I have had), but the work went on anyway.} David R. Ingham 07:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Besides the initial "teething" problems, which took many months to solve, the weapons system proved woefully inadequate. The 30MM cannons were quite powerful, but had a slow rate of fire and often jammed. Only a skilled aerial marksman could keep a B17 in the sights (they were closing at greater than 500 MPH relative speed), and then only got off a few rounds. Compare to modern jet aircraft which use very high rate-of-fire cannon (gatling cannons and the like) to achieve maximum weight of ammunition/burst. Granted, the 30MM shell contained a powerful explosive, but at least 2 and generally 3 hits were needed to take down a heavy bomber. The ME-163 program had too many rookie pilots to get many kills even IF they had liberal amounts of fuel to fly with. Might have done as well or better with some kind of heavy rocket mounted internally in the wing roots. Get the bomber in your sights and fire the rockets in one shot. The Luftwaffe wanted an ability to make multiple firing passes, and that was unrealistic given the fundamental nature of the ME-163. Few, if any, piston-engined German fighters took out more than one B17 in a sortie either. 4.225.235.20 16:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a good discussion of this in a "Control of a Swept Wing Tailless Aircraft Through Wing Morphing", a dissertation by Ricard Guiler. It has a better review of the literature than this article and is not quite so glowing about the Me 163's flight characteristics (shock stalls, mach tuck, etc). But another major limit to its effectiveness was that the Allies bombed the factories that made its fuel. DonPMitchell (talk) 21:46, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Spelling and Legal Issues in "Survivors" Paragraph

First of all, it's swastika, not swastaka, second, German law does have a few exceptions that allow for the display of nazi flags and insignia. Taken from StGB §86a: (3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.

This basically means that the flags/insignia may be used e.g. for [...] art, science, research, teachings, reports of current or historical events or similar purposes.

So, displaying a swastika on a WWII-era plane in a museum is absolutely legal, as it is an accurate historical display. Similarly, swastikas may be shown in movies set in the era, like the Indiana Jones series - this does not extend towards computer games, though - the swastikas had to be edited out of the computer games for Indiana Jones Part IV, for example. A somewhat semi-official explanation to this is that movies are considered art, while computer games are not (of course, may computer game enthusiasts will beg to differ here). 84.56.148.122 22:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Fuel problems

I recall reading (a LONG time ago), that a leaky fuel line caused one of the pilots to be 'liquefied' down to the bone. Anyone willing to chime in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.67.104.4 (talk • contribs) 13:12, 30 April 2007

This is a true story. I have a book on the Komet program, "Top Secret Bird: The Luftwaffe's Me-163 Comet" by Wolfgang Spate, the head of the Luftwaffe's testing program. He flew Komets on several occasions, as well as other fighters as a squadron commander. He mentions that a good friend had a Komet overturn (upon landing in a plowed field), spilling Hydrogen Peroxide (T-Stoff) all over the cockpit. The hapless pilot was largely liquified as a result. Spate, as head of the testing program, had to listen to the flight surgeon describing his friend's corpse's condition... gruesome.

Apparently, concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide will gladly oxidize almost any organic material, including Human flesh. One of the pilots -- it might have been Herr Spate himself -- had a pinhole leak, and it filled the cockpit with fumes. He barely got his plane back to earth as searing fumes nearly blinded and choked him. The best fuel tank technologies of the 1940s were barely able to contain T-Stoff, as they did not have the kind of advanced silicones and plastics that might have safely held the material. Oydman 03:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The event was also described by Mano Ziegler in Rocket Pilot. —Quicksilver^{T @} 04:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

St Athan

As a boy and teenager I visited the small air museum at RAF St Athan a few times in the 70s. It definitely contained an ME 163. OK I see this airframe is covered in the Gernmany section, glad my memory was correct! Stub Mandrel (talk) 21:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Me 163B-0.jpg

Image:Me 163B-0.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Me 163A-1.jpg

Image:Me 163A-1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Identities

The text claims that Me 163A V4 had the Stammkennnzeichen KE+SW, but the image caption next to it claims it shows the Me 163A V1 with those Stkz. William Green's Rocket Fighter also captions the KE+SW individual as the V1. I don't think the Stkz. would have been reused for the V4, or does anyone know something to the contrary? 83.250.197.97 10:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Stammkennzeichen KE+SW belongs to V4, there was never a Me 163 A V1! V1 is the DFS 194. Me 163 A V2 and V3 were used for strength tests. The V4 was the first flying prototype.--HDP 13:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Stoff

Hellmuth Walter, in a paper on rocket engine development calls the hydrazine/methanol mixure "M-Stoff" not "C-Stoff". I'm skeptical about the accuracy of list of stoffs. DonPMitchell (talk) 08:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

C-Stoff is hydrazine/methanol/water with potassium-copper-cyanide as catalyst.--HDP (talk) 01:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)