Talk:Mestizo Colombians
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About the genetic ancestry of colombians
editSo I have seen that user Mactorsplairs is attempting to edit war me over the genetic ancestry of Colombians, I’ll provide a reason why those studies are flawed. Zaquezipe (talk) 19:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- First off, the first link. You say that it states that Argentina has 10% more European ancestry within this study, they do not. In fact it shows Argentina and Colombia as having nearly the same amount of European ancestry within this. Despite the fact argentina has a much larger European population and a much smaller indigenous population than Colombia. === Table 1 ===
- === Table 1 ===
- Global ancestry proportions estimated through ADMIXTURE K = 4.
|Population |European |Native American |West African |East Asian
- |-
|Argentina |0.673 |0.277 |0.036 |0.014
- |-
|Colombia |0.625 |0.274 |0.092 |0.009
- |-
is what it states in there, showing Colombia has less indigenous ancestry somehow than Argentina despite Colombias diverse population and large indigenous descent. Of the second source, https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004572 this one is the one that I mean that measures individuals mostly from the paisa region, a region known for being more European than the other parts of Colombia, look at the maps included and where the dots are pointing to, that is enough evidence to show that it isn’t reliable for the entire country and has been proven wrong before. Not only that, a majority indigenous region such as La guajira peninsula is described as mostly European despite the fact that half of the population is Wayuu https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6491930/ This one, another infamous study that has been proven wrong as well as it not only takes from the other two studies but fails to acknowledge the high diversity of Colombians. It would be more accurate to say that that is the genetic ancestry for European Colombians rather than mestizo Colombians. the African genetics are stated as 8% despite most Colombians having some sort of African ancestry and full Afro Colombians comprising 10% of the country’s population, the sources you provide have many flaws and don’t match up even the genetic diversity of Colombians. Not to mention the fact that Peru is also stated as having low African ancestry despite having a large African population larger than Mexico within the country. The sources I stated are more representative of the nation as a whole and are also stated within the spanish version of these pages. As stated within my own talk page, those cites were proven to be false and conducting a majority European population rather than others such as mestizos Africans or indigenous Zaquezipe (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Not only that, the studies I presented counted people of each region and department and were sorted by the population size of each region and department to get the genetic studies you saw in the previous revisions of the page, as well as in the ethnic groups of Colombia you changed it to the ones measuring mostly European Colombians and you didn’t even acknowledge the ethnic diversity of Colombia, you chose a study focused on white Colombians and mestizos and chose that as representative of the whole country despite being counted by many studies that indigenous people and Afro Colombians take up a large part of the population, possibly around 30-40%. You take genetic studies conducted on more European Colombians and count it as 100% fact despite the fact that this has already been resolved with other editors and the studies have been proven as not reliable for being representative of the Colombian population, one of the studies you mentioned even shows many indigenous regions as having hardly any Amerindian DNA despite the fact most of their population is Amerindian. That same study also conducts mostly European paisa Colombians rather than the entire country or the rest of the Andean region and those same studies have low sample size for non European places. Zaquezipe (talk) 20:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Yet the user continues to revert the edits despite my attempt to talk in the talk page rather than engage in a continuing edit war and present their evidence as 100% fact, rather than acknowledging the many ethnic groups within the country that comprise a large percentage of the country, they are hardly represented within the studies and the studies themselves have been proven to not be reliable for representing the majority of the country. Zaquezipe (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- It has also been said by a mod that those studies are incorrect for describing the Colombian population as a whole. They state “I've come here after the discussion at the {{WP:RS}. I love reading references. The disputed sentence reads: Public Library of Science (PLOS) genetic research determined that the average Colombian (of all races) has a mixture of European 62.5%, native Amerindian 27.4% , African 9.2% and East Asian 0.9%. That is not supported by the source. The paper was looking at the admixture of three backgrounds and the abstract says nothing about the population in general. In the Materials and Methods section they describe their subjects as a "convenience sample"; in all but Chile they used university students and staff.” And provide the fact that it measured university students and staff. Most university students and staff are of more European descent within Colombia due to the long history of discrimination spanning centuries, in no part of the study did it say it was measuring the Colombian population as a whole, the other studies do the same and measure those of upper class, and is common knowledge that the upper class is of more European descent within Colombia. It states within the white Colombians page, the indigenous Colombians page, and the Afro Colombians page as well and backed up by many sources. I provided a study that examines the Colombian population in general within the country of Colombia, they solely focus on Colombia and not on other countries which the studies you provided do, you should read the studies before coming to a conclusion that it represents all Colombians despite not showing the ethnic diversity of the country or being limited to a specific region, all of those studies have flaws and aren’t meant for representing the whole Colombian population but rather the Colombian population in different areas/ clases. You state indigenous people only take up 3% of the country, this has been proven wrong by the 2018 census itself, it is stated within the census that 4.31 of the population identifies as belong to an indigenous group, and considering the constant discrimination of indigenous peoples, it’s easy to see why there aren’t many identifying as indigenous, the latinobarometro studies are a good way to see the ethnic groups of the country as they don’t release the data to the government and they ask random groups of people rather than focusing on a specific area. In which, 10% of Colombians identified as indigenous, a lot higher than those who did in the same years census. Also stated within the Afro-Colombians page is “Afro-Colombians and indigenous people were often targeted by armed groups who wanted to displace them in order to take their land for sugar cane plantations, coffee and banana plantations, mining and wood exploitation. This form of discrimination still occurs today.” Zaquezipe (talk) 20:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Now, I would like Mactorsplairs to respond to this talk page otherwise, those edits will be reverted. Zaquezipe (talk) 20:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Also, rebel groups control roughly a third of Colombian land, so it will be hard to conduct accurate censuses or studies that represent the entire country. Zaquezipe (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- PLOS also isn’t always accurate and has its own flaws with it. Zaquezipe (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Now, I would like Mactorsplairs to respond to this talk page otherwise, those edits will be reverted. Zaquezipe (talk) 20:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- It has also been said by a mod that those studies are incorrect for describing the Colombian population as a whole. They state “I've come here after the discussion at the {{WP:RS}. I love reading references. The disputed sentence reads: Public Library of Science (PLOS) genetic research determined that the average Colombian (of all races) has a mixture of European 62.5%, native Amerindian 27.4% , African 9.2% and East Asian 0.9%. That is not supported by the source. The paper was looking at the admixture of three backgrounds and the abstract says nothing about the population in general. In the Materials and Methods section they describe their subjects as a "convenience sample"; in all but Chile they used university students and staff.” And provide the fact that it measured university students and staff. Most university students and staff are of more European descent within Colombia due to the long history of discrimination spanning centuries, in no part of the study did it say it was measuring the Colombian population as a whole, the other studies do the same and measure those of upper class, and is common knowledge that the upper class is of more European descent within Colombia. It states within the white Colombians page, the indigenous Colombians page, and the Afro Colombians page as well and backed up by many sources. I provided a study that examines the Colombian population in general within the country of Colombia, they solely focus on Colombia and not on other countries which the studies you provided do, you should read the studies before coming to a conclusion that it represents all Colombians despite not showing the ethnic diversity of the country or being limited to a specific region, all of those studies have flaws and aren’t meant for representing the whole Colombian population but rather the Colombian population in different areas/ clases. You state indigenous people only take up 3% of the country, this has been proven wrong by the 2018 census itself, it is stated within the census that 4.31 of the population identifies as belong to an indigenous group, and considering the constant discrimination of indigenous peoples, it’s easy to see why there aren’t many identifying as indigenous, the latinobarometro studies are a good way to see the ethnic groups of the country as they don’t release the data to the government and they ask random groups of people rather than focusing on a specific area. In which, 10% of Colombians identified as indigenous, a lot higher than those who did in the same years census. Also stated within the Afro-Colombians page is “Afro-Colombians and indigenous people were often targeted by armed groups who wanted to displace them in order to take their land for sugar cane plantations, coffee and banana plantations, mining and wood exploitation. This form of discrimination still occurs today.” Zaquezipe (talk) 20:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Yet the user continues to revert the edits despite my attempt to talk in the talk page rather than engage in a continuing edit war and present their evidence as 100% fact, rather than acknowledging the many ethnic groups within the country that comprise a large percentage of the country, they are hardly represented within the studies and the studies themselves have been proven to not be reliable for representing the majority of the country. Zaquezipe (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Also, one of the studies you provided is archived as one page and no longer available, I want to know why that is more reliable than one covering individuals representative of population that is still up and available to this day. Zaquezipe (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Also here are some websites that support my claims, you can go read these if you please.
- https://www.justice.gov/eoir/page/file/1277501/download
- https://digitalcommons.providence.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=history_papers_proj
- https://www.fordfoundation.org/news-and-stories/stories/how-more-accurate-census-data-can-shape-social-justice-in-colombia-and-peru/
- https://ibb.co/Rb7mFqX
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45822469_Genetic_Make_Up_and_Structure_of_Colombian_Populations_by_Means_of_Uniparental_and_Biparental_DNA_Markers
- https://repositorio.unb.br/handle/10482/5542
- https://biblioteca.clacso.edu.ar/Colombia/cidse-univalle/20121113043151/Art2.pdf
- https://minorityrights.org/minorities/afro-colombians/
- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/olvidado-pueblos-indigenas-colombia/
- https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/colombia-under-review-violence-against-indigenous-peoples-while-protests-rage-home
- https://www.statista.com/statistics/1288888/share-indigenous-population-living-poverty-colombia/ Zaquezipe (talk) 21:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Here are some more
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236691650_Comparison_of_the_genetic_background_of_different_Colombian_populations_using_the_SNPforID_52plex_identification_panel
- https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.03.02.23286692v1
- https://repositorio.unb.br/handle/10482/5542
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45822469_Genetic_Make_Up_and_Structure_of_Colombian_Populations_by_Means_of_Uniparental_and_Biparental_DNA_Markers Zaquezipe (talk) 23:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)