Talk:Metal umlaut/Archive 1

Archive 1

Tool neutral

I've removed the term "highly successful" in the Tool entry. Goes against Wikipedia:NPOV. To clarify, it's not a successful album compared to Michael Jacksons Thriller or some Beatles albums or even Metallica. It might be "highly successful" to whatever previous albums they made or to other, present day metal bands, I have no way of knowing. You could use the qualification "no. 1 album", but then please specify in which chart it reached no. 1. Even if it was in the Bimonthly Chattanooga Heavy (and light) metal Top 23 Chart, or something ... ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CrashTestSmartie (talk • contribs) 11:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

ÿ

>Queensrÿche went further by putting the umlaut over the 'y' in their name.
>From a linguistic viewpoint, this might be regarded as a diaresis, rather than as an umlaut.

This is right, the diacritic mark does not produce a diaresis here, as there are no vowels to be pronounced distinctly, like in the Spanish word lingüista (linguist, linguistic).

Motörhead & Co. do also only use the umlaut letters, but you cannot really regard the use of the letters as umlauts (in the phonological/phonetic sense), because "Motörhead" is still pronounced "Motorhead".

--zeno 19:16 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

On the contrary, I always go out of my way to pronounce it "Motuerhead", just to emphasise the silliness of it, likewise Blue Oueyster Cult and Murtley Crueue... ;-) GRAHAMUK 11:10, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The way Lemmy pronounces it is not standard RP English to say the least. Roughly: Mo'er'ead. On the other hand, I generally sound a bit like Frasier Crane, but I still like saying Mo'er'ead -- awright? -- The Anome 22:14, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

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n-umlaut

I agree completely with zeno's comments above. None of the examples are using the "two dots" for the function of diaeresis or umlaut though I'm happy for the dots to be referred to by either name, muddling in the other senses of these words is just wrong.

And to test your browser, here is "Spin̈al Tap" rendered using a Unicode combining diaeresis - it doesn't display correctly on my machine though ):

--hippietrail

Technically, one could "pronounce" n-umlaut, as the umlaut signifies with German vowels (front-rounding). Does any language actually have a front-rounded /n/, though? The most absurd umlauting would be "w-umlaut", since the sound that "w" stands for in English is already about as front-rounded as can be.

No, wait, in German it's not front-rounding, it's just fronting. For example, ä is not rounded, but is fronted. So, following this reasoning, n̈ should be pronounced as a fronted n... is it possible? Isn't n already dental? How can you "front it more"?

--Fibonacci 14:50, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

/n/ is a nasal sound, produced by redirecing the airstream so it comes out the NOSE; air also goes into the mouth cavity from the lungs, but does not come out the mouth. Furthermore, this oral side-cavity is closed off in the front by the tip of the tongue, i.e. BEHIND the lips. Therefore, the air never reaches the lips, so rounding them has basically no effect on the sound (try it!). [There may be a very very slight change, because rounding the lips also moves cheek muscles, thus slightly chainging the shape of the mouth cavity, but the difference is basically not audible.] As to /w/, it's rounded, but NOT front; it's basically the semi-vowel version of the BACK rounded vowel [u]. A front rounded glide is possible; it's found at the beginning of the French words huit, huile, etc. It is just the semi-vowel version of [ü]. NathanV 10:31, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the umlautted vowels in German are just like their un-umauted forms except for being fronted. ü and ö are thus front-rounded, since u and o are rounded to begin with. You can't really "front" an /n/ in any sense, unless you just replace it with another nasal sound like /m/ whose closure is further towards the front of the mouth (at the lips in the case of [m]). So I guess we should say Spimal Tap. (Actually, the Standard English /n/ is not quite dental, its actually articulated on the alveolar ridge, so you could front it a little be pronouning it with e.g. a French accent. But the difference is very hard to hear.) NathanV 10:31, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I pronounce n̈ as if it is ñ, thus giving "spignal tap". From a linguistics fan POV this use of diaeresis is really bad. Rather than make them look çöøł I feel it makes them look şåð as ĥęłλ. It's just another kind of Leetspeak…

As for w: ẅ :p — Jor (Darkelf) 23:39, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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The Dutch "ij".

Dear DarkElf, I might know nothing about Heavy Metal but I'm Dutch myself - and every schoolchild learns to write the ÿ at 6 years old. It's just that many people seperate it into I and J, the same way that in earlier times the A and E were conjoined (Æ) in many words originating from Latin. I've personally never seen an ÿ in French. Indeed, the Dutch refer to the "y" (without dots) as the I-grec or French Y to distinguish it from the "ÿ". Zullen we deze discussie in het Nederlands voortzetten om het de buitenstaanders moeilijk te maken? Jfdwolff 20:45, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

De IJ is niet hetzelfde als de Y-grèc. Er bestaat een aparte IJ/ij (U+0132 en U+0133), en Ÿ/ÿ wordt specifiek genoemd in de Unicode beschrijving als niet acceptabel voor de IJ. Voor zover ik weet wordt de Ÿ/ÿ alleen in Frans, Welsh, en Turks (niet zeker van de laatste) gebruikt, en in enkele romanisaties (Chinees bijv.). Zie ook Dutch Y, diaeresis. Onder diaeresis heb ik een paar voorbeelden voor het gebruik van ÿ gegeven. Als je echt heb geleerd de IJ als een Y-grèc met trema of umlaut te schrijven, vind ik dat een zeer rare zaak. Ÿ/ÿ voor IJ/ij is gewoon onjuist: de enige acceptable transcriptie als de echte IJ-ligatuur (eerder gegeven) niet beschikbaar is is IJ/ij. De IJ wordt niet voor niets tegenwoordig onder de I gecollateerd in woordenboeken! (Alhoewel ik persoonlijk er meer voor voel de letter als een 26e letter in het alfabet ná de Y te zetten.) Jor 21:44, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What's an example of ÿ in Welsh? NathanV 12:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ik blijf mijn twijfels houden, maar ik ben arts en geen Neerlandicus :-) Jfdwolff 10:56, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe some mention has to be made of the French electronic group Rinôçérôse; although it is neither heavy metal nor umlaut, something about the name belongs in the same general category. I am too lazy to find the right entry to put it in though... Speaking of such language play, I am also thinking of the recent Korean phenomenon called oegye-eo (alien language) that uses deliberate use of special characters (everything from Japanese Hiragana to Cyrillic to graphic-shape letters provided by Korean language sets) to write Korean on the web, approximating the shape of Korean (in addition to other tricks), as a type of secret language. This is mainly done by young people. Maybe I'll write it up one day.. Iceager 06:43, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shall we add in a subsection titled something like "Other gratuitous diacritics" --Christophernicus 08:29, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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I've removed : (The "ÿ" is otherwise only used in old French and in some French proper nouns Never seen any case ! Can someone give a sample ? Ericd 17:36, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

The ducs de Croÿ... Nunh-huh 08:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

--- This article definitely needs some phonetics, but I'm not qualified. Ericd 20:03, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

• Is used in French proper names, some place names called L'Haÿ-de-blablabla, and, AFAIK, a champagne called aÿ. (Please don't ask.) In Dutch, the ij/ÿ thing is that the two look alike in handwriting, hence handwritten ij -> ÿ. (My system's Garamond font is similar in this regard, the italics ij ligature looking somewhat between non-ligature ij and ÿ.) I have changed the article. -- de:Benutzer:Ein_anderer_Name

Much more stupid than the air guitar!

Just as I was thinking that air guitar was the the silliest thing a loser could invent, here comes "heavy metal umlaut." God, this Book of the Brain-Dead is beyond my wildest imagination.

I thought the silliest thing a loser could invent was the wiki....

Nay! The silliest thing a loser could invent is the heavy metal umlaut article design shirt on CafePress! Cernen

Spinal Tap

Spoof band Spinal Tap parodied the idea still further in 1982 by putting the umlaut over the letter "n". The n-umlaut/n-diaeresis character does not occur in any known language or belong to any standard character set, and this does not represent any conventional correspondence between spelling and pronunciation.

It does occur in a small Central American Amerindian language, Jacaltec. "The following character appears here written in ASR system: n¨ (n + diaeresis)" [1]

Added. Wikipedia, where no detail is too obscure!  :-D - David Gerard 12:34, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

n-umlaut was also used by French Jesuit missionaries in the late 17th century in writing the Native American language Abenaki. In that language, it's used to mark nasalization on preceding vowels. It's a big pain in the neck to reproduce in Word.--anonymous, April 2, 2006

I condensed the text of the Spinal Tap story a little (removing only the bit about Guatemala) and moved it to the caption. It has since been moved back. My thinking is this: A caption should tell something about the picture and tie the picture to the article. The tidbit about the obscure n¨ adds something that the reader won't get from looking at the picture. It makes for a perfect caption. It also makes people more likely to read that particular bit of text (as a caption) and draws the reader into the surrounding text. -- ke4roh 21:16, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've left it out but readded Guatemala, so people will have some idea where the heck Jacaltec is from - David Gerard 21:49, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I took out "a consonant" from the text because it also appears in the latest caption. I didn't figure everything had to be in both places. In particular, I think it's a characteristic of good captions to bring out some tidbit of information not mentioned in the article. There are two other changes I would make and my reasoning:

• I would move the picture back to the left to provide visual balance (being sure to leave a blank line after the image code to avoid an ugly indentation in IE)
• I would remove "Guatemala" because people can click the link to find out that 40,000 Mayan Indians speak Jacaltec in Guatemala and Chiapas, Mexico.

-- ke4roh 03:43, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

While the caption may include information not found in the article (as per that link), it strikes me as a bad idea to deliberately remove material from the text to the caption. e.g. remember that, owing to the variable copyright status of Wikipedia images, most of our mirror sites don't actually pull the images or captions - so the mirrored version won't have them. The text should be complete; the captions should be strictly optional extras.

The Guatemalan thing - again, there's no reason to cut the information and deliberately send someone off to another article when it's a single word.

The layout looked too odd to me with the Spinal Tap logo to the left, so I put it back to the right. The break also fouls up the framing of the image box in Firefox (cuts off the bottom border) - David Gerard 09:53, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

At what point in the movie is the quote "It's like a pair of eyes. You're looking at the umlaut, and it's looking at you."? My girlfriend is a rabid fan of the movie (she was ecstatic to learn I named my 1100MHz Duron pc OURSGOTO11) and can't remember that quote being in it, and a google search "looking at the umlaut" "looking at you" "spinal tap" -spin -wiki brings back only 7 unique results, one of which is someone else who can't seem to remember hearing it in the movie. Sooo.. can I get a timestamp on where this quote can be found in the movie? Most other references on the web, as is all too common these days, seem to be from Wiki. Zaphraud 08:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Häagen-Dazs

Is there any place in this article for the Häagen-Dazs umlaut? RickK 21:56, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)

Surely that's a genuine diaeresis? This is much more about bogosity in the two dots - David Gerard 22:06, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's unlikely, since "Häagen-Dazs" is a made up word with no meaning. RickK 04:12, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

That's interesting. How's it canonically pronounced? - David Gerard 09:38, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Both "a"s have the same pronunciation -- as in "father". RickK 20:21, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

Mentioned in latest version. - David Gerard 21:42, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No, this has no place in an article about heavy metal umlauts. Should be removed. Everyking 00:30, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. It's fine on the talk page, but a section saying the commercial use is unrelated to the heavy metal umlaut opens the door to saying all kinds of things are unrelated. HMÜ is unrelated to the importation of 700 German rocket scientists in Operation Paperclip after World War II, for eample, even though they brought more umlauts to the United States in their names. -- ke4roh 00:44, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

If someone can write the article on the subject, it'd belong in "See also" - a good reference PDF is linked below - David Gerard 00:53, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would have thought that while there are few enough examples of gratuitous umlauts known outside of heavy metal, a brief mention of them here would be appropriate until there's enough material to make an article of their own. &emdash;ciphergoth 13:14, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

The Foreign branding article already discusses the use of faux umlauts in non-musical trademarks and slogans. "Häagen-Dazs" is THE prototypical example of foreign branding, in my opinion: a name invented to look and sound foreign, with no meaning unrelated to the product. (Unfortunately, the ones who coined it did an extremely poor job of looking or sounding Scandinavian, as they originally intended.) --ISNorden 19:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

If Häagen Dazs doesn't belong, than either do any of the band names with Scandinavian characters. Many seem to have crept in here. After all, neither the O with the slash nor the A with a circle on top are umlauts. It may be better to retitle the article Diacritical marks in band names or Diacritical marks in marketing, and then that would be more inclusive. --209.218.88.3 19:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Amon Düül

The band Amon Düül not only predates Blue Oyster Cult, but they feature two consecutive umlauts in their name. I'm not sure if they count as heavy metal, but Chuck Eddy does include one of their albums (plus two by Amon Düül II) in his Stairway to Hell ranking of metal albums. Mark Desrosiers

Well there you go. Here [2] is Amon Düül's 1969 debut album, with the double-umlauts clearly visible on the sleeve. —Stormie 05:28, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

Aha, but wait a minute! The AMG says ([3]) that the name comes from "Amon being an Egyptian sun god, Düül a character from Turkish fiction." So, if the umlauts are legitimate, rather than gratuitous, it's not really a heavy metal umlaut! —Stormie 05:35, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

I certainly hope we're not going to try to list every band with an umlaut in their name ... so how metal are they? Being earlier than BOC, they may rate a mention in the history. Does anyone know where BOC got the umlaut from? - David Gerard 09:38, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Just added them to history. Were there any prominent umlauts/diaereses before this? - David Gerard 09:58, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to this site [4], Allan Lanier added the umlaut. I haven't found anything else about his rationale or inspiration. This article [5] is also worth fact-checking for additional info. Targetpuller

Just added Allen Lanier. I did find that PDF - it would be useful for an article on commercial diacritic abuse. If there's a commonly-used phrase for the phenomenon - David Gerard 21:47, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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AMG where? I've found not a sentence on the link what little similar to your statements. And however, it is not true, Turkish language has no word exactly equals or resembles to düül, nor üü sequence is probably happens in Turkish. As my resource, an interview with an Amon Düül mamber says (I linked it in the article), düül is not a turkish word, it's totally fictive, so diacritic sign on ü this way can be considered gratuitous- what's more, the whole word is gratuitous :-). Gubbubu 19:36, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The "All Music Guide", now called "AllMusic" (URL linked)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The allmusic guide? Where? URL linked? Where? Gubbubu 20:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

should this page exist?

It's disgusting to me that this article was featured. But maybe all wikis are doomed to become masturbatory rather than useful for learning new things: see the Portland Pattern Repository.

Personally, I think this is fantastic. It may not be high culture, but it's an excellent example of a real-world phenomenon that many people are curious about. It's now one of the examples I use when explaining Wikipedia, and it catches the imagination. It would be bad if all entries were this trivial, but a few do no harm. William Pietri 18:34 06 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree fully---except with the implication that this issue is trivial. It is an interesting example of superficial borrowing in a language contact situation. More importantly, it illustrates the socially-embematic nature of orthography (cf. the ideologically-laden issue of the adoption or abandonment of Arabic script for languages like Turkish, Swahili, or Hausa). Umlauts are associated with languages that are associated in some people's minds with things like Wagner, Vikings, and Valhalla; these people seem to choose to use umlauts for the same kinds of reasons that a Hausa poet might choose to use the Arabic rather than the Roman alphabet. Although admittedly not much is at stake in the choice of a band name, the issue illustrated is clearly not trivial. This article is a good starting place for info about this. --Nathan 25 Nov 2004

I found this article and it was exactly what I was looking for. I had seen umlauts in the band name Mötley Crüe and thought that it made no sense. The explanation that the Metal umlaut was a cultural thing was exactly the enlightenment I needed. Brian McCauley (talk) 15:56, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I think this is classic Wikipedia: the reader comes in looking for heavy metal info, finds it, and exits having (as a bonus!) learned about character sets and orthography. -- Karada 18:57, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And articulatory phonetics, as of 25 Nov 2004

I totally agree. If WP stuck to so-called "worthy" subjects it would not only be dull, it would probably be quite a small and infrequently visited place. I think it's great that the whole gamut of human culture can be covered here - after all, no-one is forcing anyone to read anything. There are many pages I think are useless, but somebody thought they were worthwhile, and I can ignore what I'm not interested in. Graham 23:46, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I absolutely love the fact this article exists. It is a testament to why Wikipedia is great. Where else could you find a serious article about such a minor cultural artifact? Tempshill 17:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If an article like this helps a linguist do serious research about his country's attitudes towards language and spelling, it has served a productive purpose--the polar opposite of being "masturbatory". Not every article in a paper encyclopedia is about timeless artworks, world-shaking events, or scientific discoveries intended to save the human race; why should online encyclopedias be restricted to covering that kind of topic? --ISNorden 20:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Underground Zerø?

I suspect that the ø in Underground Zerø is meant to look like an actual zero (0) character as a lot of character sets differentiate a zero from an o by placing a slash across the character or by placing a dot in the center for a zero.

If this is the case, it should probably be removed from the Heavy Metal Umlaut section. - User:Suppafly

I'd probably want to leave them there unless and until we know for sure - David Gerard 00:16, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think this might actually be the case, as evidenced by the kidneythieves album "Zerøspace" and the Brazilian band Zerø. Incidentally, I know the drummer of Zerø and could ask him about the spelling if there is a demand. - Christophernicus 08:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think the ø here is the danish/norwegian version of the german Ö so it does belong here.84.118.187.137 (talk) 08:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Flash-based commentary

Someone tried to add this link to the article, but since it didn't directly pertain to the subject it got removed, but I liked it, so I'll leave the link here. Everyking 12:18, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I also moved it over to Wikipedia:Wikipedia in blogs. Bryan 17:40, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I removed the link again. The link is self-reference, as an article should talk about its subject, not about the article itself. However the link would be a good external link for the Wikipedia article. Removed text is reproduced below. --L33tminion | (talk) 23:31, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

• Heavy Metal Umlaut: The Movie Movie by Jon Udell

The link should stay as it is now part of the lore of this topic. It isn't discoverable on this discussion page, yet it should be.

Interröbang Cartel

The Interrobang Cartel are currently listed under the section for gratuitous umlauts and the section for non-gratuitous umlauts. Surely it's one or the other. LizardWizard 04:43, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

My Life in Heavy Metal link

The "My Life in Heavy Metal by Steve Almond" link has been removed from the parent site. Can anyone find a good link to replace the original? - Christophernicus 08:42, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I added the cached version at the Web Archive. --Christophernicus 06:03, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Inconsistency with other Articles?

On the Umlaut page for Danish, Icelandic, Norwegian and Swedish:

As it is not a case of marking grammatical variation, i.e., of tempus or modus, nor of syllable modification, it is neither a case of umlaut nor of diacritical marking. Hence it ought to be improper to call these characters umlauts; however, there is no more precise descriptor in English.

However, in this article:

Umlauts are used in several languages, such as Icelandic, German, Swedish, Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, French and Portuguese...

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that umlauts/diaeresis appear in such languages, or appear in the letters of such languages, rather than say that they are "used"? That is to say, when one uses a Swedish "ä", they are not modifying an existing "a" sound, but utilizing a separate letter in its own right. Therefor the umlaut is not used, in the same way a tilde over an n, a part of the letter, is not used in Spanish (whereas other accent marks are, stress syllables for example). NOTE: I am not saying that umlauts are not "used" in German, as they are. I am also not saying that the word umlaut should be avoided when referring to Danish, Icelandic, Norwegian and Swedish. Just saying the phrasing makes this article somewhat inconsistant with others. 64.162.10.162 05:50, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How about "Umlauts, or umlaut-like characters, are used..."?

The problem here is that English doesn't seem to have a name for the diacritic itself, only for the various phenomena it represents in context. "Umlaut" (or Umlautung) is primarily the name not of the ¨ diacritic, but of a historical development in vowels. The English word is "i-mutation" as far as I'm aware. The German vowels ä, ö, ü are results of this sort of development, and English calls their dots umlauts. Similarly, "diaeresis" first of all means that two contiguous vowels are pronounced separately, particularly in contexts where they might be expected to form a diphthong. "Hiatus" is another word for this. This is what the ¨ indicates e.g. in French ("Noël" etc.) There are other uses, like the Dutch ÿ (ij-ligature) or the Spanish ü in sequences like "-güe-", where the ¨ indicates that the u is not silent (note that the sign is commonly called "diéresis" anyway).

Tréma in French

The statement "Umlauts are used in several languages, such as Icelandic, German, Swedish, Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, French and Portuguese" seems to me to falsely imply that umlauts are a regular feature of French. With the exception of the rare examples of ÿ (which as a native French speaker I have to admit I'd never encountered,) most instances of the ¨ in French represent a tréma (or diaeresis) and marks a separation of vowels, not a modification of the vowel sound. Adjusting 08:24, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

Webcast about the evolution of this article: http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/umlaut.html

On this blog I noticed a link to a Webcast about the evolution of this article. It is about 8 minutes long and can be found at http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/umlaut.html. It is pretty cool and shows the evolution of this article from its beginning to early 2005, going into more details of some points (Spinal tap, Germanic feel, some vandalism). Really cool to watch! -- Chris 73 Talk 02:32, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Ack - it is listed above under #Flash-based commentary already. -- Chris 73 Talk 02:48, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

In case anyone's interested...the bit about the "nazi"-look of umlauts caught my eye... especially when you consider this article... Tomer^talk 05:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

External links and references - ambiguous

Can someone split those into which are which? By that title, possible only two are used as proper references, and we don't know which ones. This is very important for featured articles. Thanks - Taxman 17:10, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Die Ärzte

You mention they used the three dots to dinstinguish it from the real meaning, but maybe this meaning should also be given? I don't know how common (maybe like "kindergarten") the use or at least the meaning "Ärzte" and "Arzt" in english educated cultures is, but i'd suggest to give some sort of explanation. (it means medical doctor somehow)

It means "medical doctors". Not just "somehow". :-)

David Marjanović native speaker of German 2005/6/30 david.marjanovic[at]gmx.at

sorry, but totally nonsense.

In german, a 'Doktor' is an academic degree (and they don't call themselves 'Die Doktoren'). An 'Arzt' is a physician. For a physician without academic degree it is even forbidden to call himself 'Doktor'(At least in Germany and Austria). Therefore 'The Physiciancs' is a quite perfect translation. 85.178.41.5 (talk) 06:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The three dots do have a second meaning since 'Die Ärzte' do have three group members. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.152.67.84 (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

"Heavy Metal" or "Heavy-metal"?

Why the sudden change to hyphenation, i.e., from "Heavy Metal Umlaut" to "Heavy-metal umlaut"? If the discussion is of metallurgy "heavy-metal" would be correct as an adjective, but the musical genre is known as "heavy metal" -- without the hyphen even as an adjective. Reference: All Music Guide --Christophernicus 06:12, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree - "heavy metal umlaut" seems to be virtually universal usage, as can be seen from the incoming links, so I've moved it back. sjorford →•← 10:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maxïmo Park

Not Heavy Metal, and I have no idea if they are correctly used or not, but Maxïmo Park have rock dots... Auz 00:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

"Correctly used." Ha ha. As if any use of the heavy metal umlaut was correct. Or not. --Christophernicus 06:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

An umlaut and half

Seeing the logo for Nintendogs (where's the three-dots diacritic when I need it?) reminded me of this phenomenon. Obviously this is designed to look like a dog's paw.... -- Smjg 19:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Consider also the three dots placed over each "a" in Hobbitish writings in a certain series of movies (borrowed from the mark for /a/ in the syllabic form of tengwar). —Tamfang 20:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Korn

The Korn logo is not faux-cyrllic; from the faux-cyrillic page:

Faux Cyrillic should not be confused with imitations of small child's erroneous writing of mirrored letters, such as the mirrored "R" in the Toys Я Us toy store name.

The scrawled band name is intended to look child-like.

Error in this article

In the sentence, "Interestingly, the standard German pronunciation of Motor is similar to the standard English pronunciation of 'motor', the umlaut over the second 'o' requiring, in German, the fronting of the vowel," the first "Motor" should, I believe, have an umlaut over the second "o," as the rest of the sentence states, and also in order to be true--the German pronounciation of "Motor" is somewhat like "Moe tore," while "Motör" would be somewhat like "Moe turr," which is similar to the standard English pronunciation of "motor."

It seems plain that that's what the author intended; I would just edit the article myself but I don't know how. (Unsigned comment by 68.252.251.147)

• Now changed as per above. (Note to 68.252.251.147: in fact, editing the article itself is as easy as making a comment here: you just click on the "Edit" link and do what you think's right. I suspect you might make a good Wikipedia editor, so go ahead and dive in, here and elsewhere!) --A bit iffy 08:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

What is going on here? There is absolutely no German word "Motör". The German translation of the English word "motor" is "Motor" - umlautless. This section of the article should be removed.

I believe they meant that if a German were to try to read the word "Motör," it would be pronounced almost identically.

Mötley Crüe

Can someone add this wherever it's appropriate? I don't know whether it's gratuituous or non-gratuituous, though I think it's the former based on the article about the band. It was the only one I thought of before I read the article.

It's already mentioned in the History section. — sjorford (talk) 11:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I missed it. Thanks for pointing this out.

Another band with a heavy-metal umlaut in its name (Tröjan) ran into similar problems when they played in Sweden. Apparently, the audience interpreted the band's name as "The Sweater"; that evoked very un-metal-like images of a "cozy, all-wool group" (in the words of one Swedish reviewer). --ISNorden 21:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Heavy metal Runic

I see the umlaut as being a parallel to the Heavy Metal fonts, which are often either Gothic or Runic in style. Heavy metal "runic" probably deserves an article to itself, I can think of about a dozen examples. --MacRusgail 18:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Other languages

I've made a minor change for clarity: the purpose that an umlaut serves in English when it apperas in "Chloë" is very different from the purposes it serves in German. It was misleading to include both mentions in the same sentence. Durova 17:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to be a real pedant (!), "Chloë" uses a diaeresis, not an umlaut. Both are two dots above a vowel, but while the umlaut represents a former "e", the diaeresis represents a vowel which is not pronounced as a diphthong or is pronounced separately, e.g. "Brontë" (not pronounced "Brontt")--MacRusgail. In a well designed font, diaeresis and umlaut are very slightly different. 17:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Further, "Chloë" without the diaresis could be read as "Chlö" in German, as an o-Umlaut is usually escaped as "oe" for historical reasons (several family names feature escaped umlauts as the proper writing -- mostly because umlauts are actually composed of a vowel plus a supercased "e", historically).

Nobody familiar with the name would think to read it as "Chlö" and most people not familiar with foreign names don't know the meaning of the e with diaresis anyway, so the whole thing is a bit redundant in German (also, German keyboards don't have a diaresis modifier, but only the three actual umlaut keys, so there's no easy way to type it).

The umlauts are, however, never ambiguous in German as nobody puts a diaresis on an a, o or u without the intention of making it an umlaut. The i and e with diaresis are not ambiguous because no such umlauts exist (even though they are rather rare). — Ashmodai ^{(talk · contribs)} 00:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Spoken word version

I have started working on a spoken word version of this article, as requested. Does anyone have an opinion on how the character "ø" should be spoken? Should I just pronounce it? Or? Aguerriero (talk) 18:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

---From its Wikipedia page: "In modern Danish, Faroese, and Norwegian, the letter is a monophthongal close-mid front rounded vowel, the IPA symbol for which is also [ø]. To non-rhotic English speakers, the vowel it sounds most like is the vowel in "bird" or "hurt".[1]"

Nativ perception

"Ironically, these sounds tend to be perceived as "weaker" or "lighter" than the vowels represented by un-umlauted u, o, and a, thus failing to create the intended impression of strength and darkness."

Sorce? I'm Finnish and mildly synesthetic: while I agree that Ä is "lighter" than A, Ö feels much darker than O (color association: black and purple respectivly). The sound of German Ü I also find slightly "lighter" than that of U, but as it's spelled Y in Finnish, the caracter Ü does seem a bit darker.

Im Finnish and I do not think ä is more or less light that a. ö may be darker than o, as it is in word öljy, Finnish for oil and crude oil is black. ü is grerman/turkish way of writting y. It is common semi joke to pronounce the names of these bands with more Finnish or Swedish way sometimes with replacing some works with same meaning or similar spelled Swedish ones. (Finnish not being germanic language does not mix that well) START GÅTE as star goote (or Stjärn (swedish tjärna) goote). Also because front and back vovels do not exists in the same word is Finnish language, then pronounce them turn other letters not umlauted in to umlauted versions. Möötör head or möötör hööd or mötör huvud (swedish for head) for example. ë/ï do not exists in either finnish or swedish, so we use quenya:n spelling for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.137.75.2 (talk) 09:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

The source may be German. A well known appearance of the umlaut in German is in diminutives, which make something small and cute. E.g. Hase, Katze, Vogel ("hare, cat, bird") + diminutive syllable -chen = Häschen, Kätzchen, Vögelchen ("bunny, kitty, tweety"). So for Germans, Ä, Ö and Ü do have an association opposite to Heavy Metal. Curryfranke (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Counting original gratuitious occurences only, I find 56 Ös, 40 Üs and 28 Äs - clearly in favor of Ö, so I would suggest remooving the quoted passage. (And yes, I kno' I just did original research, but it does not nullify the fact. I'm not suggesting compiling those stats in the article itself, mind you.)

Any other North Europeans around here? What do you think? --Tropylium 10:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I came here, wondering the same thing. Seriously, I'm Norwegian, and adding those dots over letters looks incredibly stupid to anyone who has those letters in their alphabet. You can't help but pronounce the letters they way they're read, which usually results in ridiculously sounding words. Motörhead reads like Moteurhead, and I doubt the band wants to sound like they're an artsy French band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.75.60.244 (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I pronounce them the way the characters are prnounced in Swedish, because the bands using them are idiots and deserve it for trying to sound cool.

And on "Ö" sounding darker than "O". Yes it, sounds "darker", but still "weaker".193.44.6.146 (talk) 10:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Danish; we don't have umlauts (even if someone above claims we do) but generally we use the swedish letters and transpose them to the danish equivelant. Mötörhead becomes Møtørhead, which is ackward at best and makes the band look like possers (I usually just call them Motor-hoved, like most of my friends, which is a unflattery version of gearhead -- similar with Mötley Crew etc). The new trend of using ø instead of ö/o is not helping... it just makes them look desperate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.145.44 (talk) 00:23, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

NYC Band "Umlaut Overload"

At some time in the past - which could have been any time in the last 25 years - there was a band with the name "Umlaut Overload". I seem to recall that there was a diaresis over every letter but do not recall exactly. Also, this band was probably shortlived. (I have nothing more to add; I just thought the name was so funny that it deserved to be mentioned, if not in the article, then here on the talk page.) Hi There 20:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The German word Umlaut

It is said in the arcticle, that "um-" is a prefix often used with verbs involving "twist". That is right. But there are several meanings of "um-". The meaning "twist" occurs in words like "umkreisen" (=to move around something on a circular trajectory) or perhaps in "umzingeln" (to encircle). The prefix can also have different meanings. For example in the word "Umzug" (=relocation) or in "Umbruch" (=a grat change) it states a change that happens. There is also the preposition "um" in German. It means something like "near" or "besides". This meaning also occurs in prefixes of words loke "Umgebung" (=the area surrounding you). The real meaning of the prefix in the word "Umlaut" is not obvious even to native german speakers, but it is surely not related to "twist". It is more lkikely to be mean something like "near", "similiar" or "changed". c

According to webster (1913): umlaut \um"laut\ ([=oo]m"lout), n. [G., from um about + laut sound.] (Philol.)
The euphonic modification of a root vowel sound by the influence of a, u, or especially i, in the syllable which formerly followed. Spearhead 22:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Featured article removal?

Editors of this article, please check the featured article review link above. This article is in danger of losing its featured status. From current discussion, the main problems appear to be shortage of references and listiness. Please participate and address the problems while matter remains open. Durova 05:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Mmm...

I think this article should be Heavy metal ümlaut? jengod

---No, the proper spelling of umlaut does itself not include an umlaut. Ironic, I know.

But does the proper spelling of "Heavy metal umlaut" contain a heävy-mëtal ümlaut? Argyriou (talk) 23:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Dots on Q!

The Iraqi mobile telecommunications provider IRAQNA uses two dots on the Q! Perhaps this is a game on Arabic writing, because the Q with dots on it also appears in the Arabic logo. --84.115.129.76 09:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

here ya go: q̈ Q̈ Connör ^(talk) 12:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

This is because the Arabic letter Q (ق) has two dots on it, to distinguish it from F (ف), which has only one. I still believe it to be a pun on rerk dirts, er, röck döts. Curryfranke (talk) 18:05, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Nördic

Anyone else's seen this? It's a bottled water-brand, apparently it's supposed to be from a nordic lake or something. So, they felt like giving it a scandinavian look, and it completely backfires. Nörd is the swedish word for nerd... 213.112.11.137 03:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

get this article back to featured status by....

shortening the lists!!! more than half of this article is just lists! just pick a few (2-6) examples for each category in the lists. who wants to do it? if nobody does, then i'm going to do it! Connör ^(talk) 02:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I did it myself, I also added a pic of Mötley Crüe's Shout at the Devil —Preceding unsigned comment added by Connorhalsell (talk • contribs) 13:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Adding references for some of the more outrageous claims might help too. For example, the article says "The term nu metal is sometimes spelled as "nü metal".". However, there are no references and a quick web search (via google) revealed nothing with the umlaut and thousands of entries without... 77.99.125.25 (talk) 12:20, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Spelling question

Shouldn't the article really be titled "Heavy metal ümlaut?" VisitorTalk 07:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No, and you are not the first to ask this. The word "umlaut" surprisingly does not actually have an umlaut in it. Connör ^(talk) 10:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ShoutattheDevilCD2.jpg

I blanked the warning as new FUR template now completed at album cover photo page. Best, A Sniper 15:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

diaeresis usage

Hi folks,

Can someone please help a newbie?

People keep removing edits on diaeresis usage because the citations are not correct.

I want to note that The New Yorker and MIT's Technology Review still spell coöperate and other similar words with a diaeresis. This is mentioned in the main Umlaut article here: Umlaut (diacritic)#In_English and noöne :-) has taken issue with that.

But apparently that is not good enough for this article. There has to be a citation or it will be removed.

I cited the publications themselves and provided examples, but apparently I can't do that as it is "original research". But it is patently obvious that these publications do use the diaeresis mark in this way: all you have to do is read them.

Isn't this a simple matter of observation? For example, if I observe that Barack Obama was on the cover of the October 23, 2006 issue of Time magazine, does that require a citation? If so, what does one cite?

Please help me out here. I'm new to Wikipedia, and don't understand how to properly cite.

Thanks in advance for your help, everyone! Webbbbbbber (talk) 18:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Your conclusion doesn't follow necessarily from your observation. Just because you found a spelling of "cooperate" with a diaeresis in the New Yorker does not demonstrate that this spelling "is current in publications such as the New Yorker". Thus it is original research.

It is also still not relevant to the article. This is not the place for a discussion of the diaeresis's use in American English. Diaeresis is. - Revolving Bugbear 19:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This is why I need some help in citing this. To me it is perfectly reasonable to assert that The New Yorker uses diaereses in words with adjacent vowels that are pronounced separately; I've been reading the publication for years, and that's what they do. Obviously that is not sufficient. My question is: what is sufficient?

As far as whether it is relevant to the article, I am merely clarifying the statement "is still used in some English-language publications". This statement is vague: Which English-language publications? My nephew's 'zine? The statement "is current in publications such as The New Yorker" takes up no more room and is more concrete.

Again, I am not looking for a discussion of the use of diaeresis in American English. I am only trying to eliminate some weasel words from the article.

Webbbbbbber (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

ø paragraph removed

I just removed this paragraph from the article:

1980's space rock band Underground Zerø used a variation on the concept, taking the Scandinavian vowel ø in their name. This may have been inspired by computer systems of the time, many of which used the slashed zero as a glyph for the digit 0 to distinguish it from the letter O and thus resembled ø. The Dutch band Bløf also uses ø in its name, even though the letter is not used in Dutch; ironically, Bløf is pronounced neither blof nor bløf.

If "ø" bands had preceded the heavy-metal umlaut, this paragraph would be relevant to the history of the latter. As is, however, it's a meaningless tangent, non-umlauted, and irrelevant. Tempshill (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

umlauts elsewhere in pop culture

How about an equivalent pop culture umlaut discussion? Less colorful history; perhaps relevant as a spinoff of this originating effort. Example image of an umlaut half-over a space and half-over a "p":

71.232.14.155 (talk) 06:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I think those are quotation marks, not umlauts... --GVOLTT ^{How's my editing?}\_{My contribs} 20:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Non-gratuituous umlauts

Is this section really needed? All it seems to convey is that umlauts are, like, really used in non-English languages. I couldn't think of why anyone wouldn't know that already. JIP | Talk 19:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, readers of this article might it useful to know that Einstürzende Neubauten, for example didn't add their umlaut because it looks cool. On the other hand, we need to be careful that this section doesn't devolve into a list of every foreign band name that has a diacritic of some sort... Webbbbbbber (talk) 19:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hüsker Dü

This article says that the umlauts on Hüsker Dü are non-gratuitous, but the entry on the band says they were added by the group, aren't present in the Norwegian or Danish phrase they are named for, and calls them heavy metal umlauts. This seems to be a contradiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.11.134 (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

And yet the entry for the Danish board game begins "The title of this article contains the character ū. Where it is unavailable, the name may be represented as Huusker Duu.". 77.99.125.25 (talk) 12:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Kurvi-Tasch ?

I do not understand why there is a link to Kurvi-Tasch (which is not related to umlaut nor heavy-metal in anyway...) in the "See Also" section (some kind of vandalism ?). Please someone explain or remove the link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.50.104.141 (talk • contribs) 10:14, May 15, 2008

It's from this contribution, not a valdal. The loose connection seems the mustache used as diacritic. However, I removed it. --Cyfal (talk) 13:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

- What about Charlotte Bronte?

66.25.141.108 (talk) 01:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Is "heavy metal umlaut" an established name?

An IP modified the article like this, saying in the edit summary:

As far as I can tell, the term "heavy meal umlaut" was invented for this article. Provide citation for the statement that "the heavy metal umlaut is..." or rephase ("The umlaut is sometimes used...)

I've checked some of the google hits but it seems that the IP may be correct in saying[6]

[...]the ghits appear to be based on this article. We need a reliable 3rd party source.

Any opionions?

--Cyfal (talk) 15:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if the article title was invented for this article, it's sufficiently descriptive of the subject matter, and the subject matter is a phenomenon that deserves an article. What else would you call it?

Another synonym I found online is "rock dots".[7]

A descriptive article title doesn't need a citation. Rather, the article needs (and has) reliable sources that describe the phenomenon. If a sensible alternative title can't be found (and I personally don't like "rock dots"), then leave it alone. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

My problem isn't with the title, it's with the contents of the article.

The article attempts to define a noun called "the heavy metal umlaut", which - as a noun - doesn't appear to exist outside of Wikipedia and web pages based on this article. As a concept, it certainly exists. Hence I'm okay with it being used as the title of the article, but I'm not okay with the article inventing a new noun.

I have rephrased the opening sentence. 69.143.24.221 (talk) 06:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC) (User WalterGR, not logged in.)

The dictionary link I provided above doesn't appear to have any relationship to Wikipedia. I like the paraphrasing you did, but you made the lead sentence nonconforming to the Manual of Style. I'll put the term back, but put it in quotation marks.

I would need evidence that this term was invented for the Wikipedia article before removing it based on personal feelings of editors here. Those who object to the term haven't met a sufficient burden of proof other than a collection of Google hits. The concept existed long before Wikipedia did, and most such concepts have names to describe them. I wouldn't be surprised if the term pre-dates Wikipedia. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

With respect, the burden of proof is not on me to prove that there is no term called "the heavy metal umlaut". Rather, as with all Wikipedia articles, reliable 3rd party sources must be provided.

I object to the term because no reliable 3rd party source has been provided that indicates the term existed prior to this Wikipedia article.

Your edit is an improvement over a few days ago, but I still feel the article is attempting to coin a new phrase. Please provide a link to the appropriate Manual of Style entry/entries that were violated by my edit and I'll try again in a way that satisfies those guidelines.

Thanks, 69.143.24.221 (talk) 01:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC) (again, WalterGR)

The claim was made that this term was invented for this article. The burden of proof is on those who make that claim. I find that claim dubious in the extreme, given the tender young age of Wikipedia compared to the quarter century that heavy metal bands have adorned their names with umlauts. Demanding a 3rd party source to "disprove" such a dubious claim strikes me as nonsensical.

The subsections under Wikipedia:Lead section#Introductory text can be interpreted either way, I guess. It is preferable to have the subject of the article boldfaced in the first sentence, or some keywords boldfaced. In this case, it isn't enough to simply emphasize "umlaut" because we have an article on that already. The boldface term should be distinguished from that article. The best way to do that (as I see it) is to use the title of the article.

There is no problem with an article title being descriptive, according to WP:LEAD, therefore no third party sources need to be provided. It's simply a description of a phenomenon, and that descriptive term can certainly be mentioned, and highlighted, in the lead sentence. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Aren't their any native speakers who heard the term "heavy metal umlaut" before Wikipedia started? From the article, I got the impression that the term was widely in use before. Therefore, after my first (too) quick revert which was reverted again I've checked the google hits more carefully and was astonished about the small number of hits that where not obvious Wikipedia clones. Another remark concerning Amatulić's dictionary link: This link may have a relation to Wikipedia, because on its home page it says "Wenn eine bestimmte Deutsch-Englisch-Übersetzung noch nicht im Wörterbuch enthalten ist, kann sie von jedem Benutzer eingetragen werden.", i.e. "If a german-english translation is not yet found in the dictonary, any user can add it". Hence, this dictionary has a wikipedia-like concept, thus a user who read our wikipedia article may have entered this translation. I modified the opening sentence now from "the 'heavy metal umlaut'" to "a 'heavy metal umlaut'" because I feel that this sounds more descriptive than actually claiming that the term exists outside wikipedia. --Cyfal (talk) 18:24, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Response:

"The claim was made that this term was invented for this article. The burden of proof is on those who make that claim."

It doesn't work that way. Rather, the claim that the term exists outside of Wikipedia - which is implicit in the article - must have a reliable 3rd party source backing it up. The exact same way it works for every claim on Wikipedia.

"I find that claim dubious in the extreme, given the tender young age of Wikipedia compared to the quarter century that heavy metal bands have adorned their names with umlauts."

Then it should be easy to find a source for this.

"Demanding a 3rd party source to 'disprove' such a dubious claim strikes me as nonsensical."

You're thinking about it backwards. A 3rd party source must be provided to prove the original claim.

That I find myself having to argue that claims on Wikipedia need 3rd party citations is ridiculous. I'll waste no more time on this. 69.143.24.221 (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think 69.143.24.221 is probably correct in supposing that the term "heavy metal umlaut" was invented for this article. The concept has existed, but not the term. Nevertheless, anyone with passing familiarity with American pop music will immediately know what you're talking if you say "heavy metal umlaut". But the article does look better without the term being used in the introductory sentence, even though that is not in strict adherence with WP guidelines. Can we bend them a little so it doesn't look like we're inventing a new term? Webbbbbbber (talk) 23:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that using a descriptive term in conformance with WP:LEAD makes it look like we're inventing a new term. I also disagree that there is any claim implicit in the article that the term was invented. The anonymous editor's statement above makes no sense. Nobody is arguing that claims don't need 3rd party citations. Rather, it is ridiculous to demand 3rd party citations for a claim that was synthesized in someone's imagination.

The concept exists, it needs a name for this article, so we have a name for it. There is no policy violation involved, and the use of the name conforms to WP:LEAD guidelines. Also, the name is already clearly widely established, regardless of where it originated. Wikipedia isn't going to make it go away from all those other Google hits just by eliminating the term from this article.

I think we need to get some feedback on someplace like WP:RFC. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting update: This article (already cited) doesn't have a date, but the context suggests it was written in the 1980s because it refers to the Spinal Tap documentary as "just released". That article uses the term "metal umlaut". I wouldn't object to this article being renamed that way, dropping the word "heavy". ~Amatulić (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Somebody changed the name in the lead, and nobody objected, so I have changed the name of this article to "metal umlaut", accordingly. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

That just doesn't have the same ring to it, though :( Agreed with the comments above that this is a descriptive term (and "metal umlaut" is ambiguous); and a note that does everyone realize this is one of the most famous articles within Wikipedia, used as a poster child for years for our awesome, obscure content? We've sold t-shirts about heavy metal umlaut. For goodness sake. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 08:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

We can always change the title back to "Heavy metal umlaut" if a source can be found that pre-dates this article. Otherwise, the term is a neologism. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a reference for either term to offer, but I will say that the phrase 'heavy metal umlaut' seems to be less ambiguous than 'metal umlaut' (and that the latter doesn't really have the same ring to it). Certainly when I first encountered the term 'heavy metal umlaut' I knew exactly what it was referring to. So unless there's actually precedent for the shorter version, I will encourage a return to the earlier and longer form. Wyvern (talk) 04:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

There is already a source supporting "metal umlaut" that pre-dates this artice, and it is cited. That's why this article was renamed to "metal umlaut". A source referencing the term trumps any personal feelings we have about it. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little late to the party on this one, but what the term was before the Wikipedia article existed seems irrelevant to me. The question is what the most common term is now. Yes, it would have been better if the article had used the most common name at the beginning, but that's only interesting in an academic sense. If the flaw of the original article title is that Wikipedia led rather than followed, then we're committing the same sin again unless "metal umlaut" is now the dominant term. And if it's too close to call, I'd favor "heavy metal umlaut" for the same reason Wyvern does: it's a clearer name. -- William Pietri (talk) 13:32, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

"YÖÜR ØÅPTÅIN IS DEA̋D" ?

Hi, I just stumbled upon this article and had a little question about this phrase. I think "ØÅPTÅIN" may refer to "oaptain", but what is "oaptain" ? I'm a non english-speaker and will appreciate your kindness. Thank you!--Shiori to Shimiko (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"ØÅPTÅIN" refers to captain, as may be seen from the full sentence - "TECHNICIÄNS ÖF SPÅCE SHIP EÅRTH THIS IS YÖÜR CÄPTÅIN SPEÄKING YÖÜR ØÅPTÅIN IS DEA̋D" Knepflerle (talk) 01:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I see. I thought the distinction between consonants and vowels may be consistent regardless of umlauts, and puzzled. Thank you.--Shiori to Shimiko (talk) 02:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Dúné

I am missing a link to the band Dúné. It is a danish rock bank so it might also be of interest for a (heavy metal) rock article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.152.67.84 (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Swedish Chef?

Why no mention of the Muppets' Swedish Chef, whose eponymous album featured an umlaut over the D? Lihan161051 (talk) 05:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a lot of rubbish in this article because languages such as german, finnish, swedish have the umlauts in normally written language. Die Ärtzte is a good example likewise the use of letter Å. If e.g a band was called Lämä it isn't Lama with rök döts.62.106.14.105 (talk) 10:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

• http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=B1c8j1vsjzzza

--CactusBot (talk) 10:49, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Kansas City Röyals fan umlaut usage

Kansas City Röyals fan umlaut usage: check such fan sites as Royals Review or Royals Authority or Kings of Kauffman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.33.158.121 (talk) 23:53, 1 December 2011 (UTC) http://www.iiraq3.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.224.28.240 (talk) 22:18, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Proto-metal-umlaut in Claude Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande?

A friend suggests a pre-metal appearance of the metal umlaut in the name of Arkël, one of the characters in Claude Debussy's opera Pelléas et Mélisande. From a book on the opera published by Cambridge University Press: "The 'Y' in Yniold's name, the tréma in Arkël's, add Celtic color, as does the name Golaud who--in slightly different spellings--was a 'Seigneur de Tintagel'." Ben (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Marc Bolan - 1965

As an interesting note, Marc Bolan appears to have used gratuitous umlauts in 1965, prior to the 1969 Amon Düül II album, the earliest instance referred to in the article. See the notes about "The Wizard" / "Beyond The Risin' Sun", F.12288, at: http://rockfiles.co.uk/rockfiles_files/MarcBolan.html
Obviously he's not at all metal, so it's perhaps only of historical interest; but it does seem to fit into the context of the early part of the 'History' section on this page. --David Edgar (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

For more information, see this page: http://www.marcbolanmusic.com/MarcBolanStory1965-67.aspx which tells us "Mr. Bölan and his 18-year-old manager, Mike Pruskin, thought it looked French." --David Edgar (talk) 17:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Other countries - Rino

• Rinôçérôse – French electronica band.

This seems like a very strange band name to mention, as it does not include any umluat, just a whole lot of accented characters. There is no citation or even comment in the wiki source to explain why this was included. Perhaps someone more familiar with the article can remove it or add some indication of why it is worth including. -- 109.76.62.88 (talk) 04:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Talking of Würm glaciation and umlauts what about the pseudo German: 'welcome to Wallis heimkänten of the Rhone headwaters'...

Seemingly by dint of marketing by the touristboard folk of the Upper Wallis, Switzerland which is the homecanton of the Rhone-icesheet or "Rottengletscher" therewith it's meltwaters downfar-come to the waters of the med. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:411:1600:226:8FF:FEDC:FD74 (talk) 23:21, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Removing speculation about a Yes album

It's about three sentences long, but it's vague and uncertain. Just noting for the talk page. Mihirpmehta (talk • contribs) 13:59, 26 December 2016 (UTC)