Talk:Metropolitan Community Church

August 2005

why was there a deltion of --the external link to biographical information on Rev Cindi Love?--Sjharte 18:11, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Place it on the bottom in the external links section. EdwinHJ | Talk 18:34, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

January 2006

I deleted the section added on 20th of Jan which alleged that rev Elder Nancy Wilson had been "ordained" by Rev Elder Troy Perry as a "Presideing Bishop". Rev Perry did mention at the installation (NB not ordination) of Rev Wilson as Moderator tjat her position was similar to what is called a "Presiding Bishop" in some denominations. Also, MCC is not in discussions with UCC to merge. MCC and UCC have cordial relations and Rev Elder Wilson has expressed a desire to work ecumnically with UCC and other Churches. --Sjharte 22:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Witnesses to the installation have provided an oppositng account to what you state. Moreover, press reports (notably this: from the BAR), indicate that UFMCC and the UCC are in talks for merger. Can you provide eveidence to the contrary? Nrgdocadams 01:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams

I was present at the Washington installation and can confirm that nothing was said that would lead you to the conclusion that something was happening (ie an episcopal ordination) that was contrary to UFMCC polity. As for your suggestion that there are merger rumours with UCC, I serve on one of the two denominational ruling Boards and can confirm that such rumours are without foundation - as the article you cite confirms "There are ongoing healthy discussions about any places where we can partner, that are a fit for us," said Love. But those contacted, including MCC-San Francisco senior pastor Penny Nixon, have heard no rumblings about a merger so far. --Sjharte 09:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Denomination

I realise this is some kind of ecumenical gay church - but what kind of church? Is it unitarian, anglican, or closer to baptist? I know these churches claim to be non-denominational, but they're usually close to one thing or another. --MacRusgail 16:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

MCC is a denomination in its own right.--Sjharte 00:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I realise that, but what kind, other than "ecumenical, pro-gay" etc? I visited the article to try and find that out, and am not much wiser on it, nor the kind of church government and theology they have (other than liberal). --MacRusgail 16:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Church polity is mostly congregational, and congregations within the denomination vary in worship style and theology. In general, theology is no more liberal than most mainline protestant deniminations, and it may be more conservative than some. The denomination was founded by a pentecostal pastor, but worship style usually has much in common with most other evangelical protestant churches. Some congregations have become more liturgical. Jonathunder 17:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, this is what I was looking for. Can you put this info in the article in some way please. --MacRusgail 19:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Featured in T.V. movie refrence

should their also be a refrence to M.C.C. being featured in the 2009 T.V. movie: Prayers for Bobby.Ricky.Adams (talk) 21:22, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It's there now. (Do we remove this talk section, then?) Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Controversy

Why doesn't the MCC writeup contain sections on controversies, scandals and criticism simular to groups such as Exodus International? Dfatl7000 15:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)–

Are there any controversies, scandals or criticism? I haven’t seen anything in the article.--Tyrfing 16:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone's trying to stir the pot now! Those comments about the changes under Nancy Wilson have a strongly negative POV. Please help find sources that can provide neutral, verifiable information on these changes. Thanks! Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

After waiting months, I'm removing the uncited claims that are particularly slanderous. Those are very serious charges, added without so much as a blog post or gossip page added as a reference. Blatant POV always irks me! 98.225.230.65 (talk) 13:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Many notable clergy need more info on their own pages

This past week saw an attempt to delete the article on Cindi Love on notability concerns; the deletion was averted thanks in part to people's willingness to dig up more info on her outside of MCC press releases. But if you look the pages of many of the notable clergy listed here, you'll see that a lot of them suffer the same problems: not enough sources presented to establish clear notability. I've tried to ensure that the list here includes all the clergy whose pages link here -- now we need to ensure that those pages are as solidly sourced as possible. Help? Aristophanes68 (talk) 18:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We just lost the pages for Mona West and Jim Mitulski, and Andy Braunston was deleted a few months back. Who here can help bolster some of the remaining pages? Aristophanes68 (talk) 06:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

We just lost Don Eastman. Aristophanes68 (talk) 22:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

And now Arlene Ackerman.Aristophanes68 (talk) 18:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Cathedral of Hope split

An editor has contested content regarding the Cathedral of Hope split: "Is this actually significant to warrant such prominence? The "scandal" is based on hearsay and the individuals cited are not notable."

• Is the content significant? Definitely yes. This involved the loss of the largest LGBT denomination in the world. The net result was a 7% drop in church revenue, and an 9% drop in membership. Any of these three items would qualify as notable, all 3 items en masse... Well, I can't see how it can possibly be excluded by a NPOV editor.
• Hearsay? Fact: the largest LGBT church disassociated in 2003. Fact: MCC lost 7%/9%. Fact: MCC was investigating Piazza. Fact: J. Terry Todd, assistant professor of American religious studies at Drew University and Reverend Mona West, both eminently qualified, were interviewed for this article. Not hearsay. Now, Michael Magnia may not be notable, but his comment succinctly paraphrases the topic of the article and quoting him directly was the best way to avoid POV. Of course, Prof. Todd and/or Rev. West could be cited.
• Whether or not the content is significant is beside the point, however. The content is WP:V and WP:RS. And I hope you are not going to argue that the The Advocate is not RS.
• Let's be clear: the topic of the article is that Cathedral left because of MCC's "gay focus" (from the source) i.e. too gay. The investigation of Piazza was the final straw, as it were, causing the vote.

The content is solidly within policy and I'm going to restore it. If you have a NPOV source to counter The Advocate then by all means add it. Please discuss here if you have any concerns. Lionel (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Why is this sex offender bit listed here under "Notable Clergy?" Outrageous! Every church of every denomination has had sex offenders and related controversy. Most of the other church listings, such the the "United Church of Christ" do not mention such things. I suggest it is due to prejudice against LGBT people and the MCC church the short article includes so much negative content including this full paragraph about Rev. Forsythe. Please correct this prejudice.

Notable clergy - Rev. James A. Forsythe

Rev Forsythe was pastor of MCC Black Hills (Rapid City SD) from 2000 to 2002. Prior to that he was on pastoral staff at MCC of the Rockies starting in the early 1990s until his transfer to Black Hills. His record at MCC was satisfactory, "He's a wonderful pastor."
In 2002 he resigned because he neglected to register as a sex offender when he moved to SD and the attention was too much. He had been convicted in 1989 while a Catholic priest.
MCC knew about the conviction the entire time: they decided to give him a second chance. This BTW is why this is notable: that a church would hire a convicted minister to pastor a congregation. "Last month [Troy] Perry reaffirmed the denomination's "zero tolerance" policy on sexual abuse of children, in the wake of the sex abuse scandals sweeping the Roman Catholic church." "Jim Birkett, national spokesman for the Metropolitan Community Church, said that policy was not retroactive and therefore would not affect Forsythe's ministry. "
This is what I am wondering... Should he be listed under Notable clergy? (1) He is obviosly notable: 2 KC Star articles and a NYT and it was addressed by Rev Birkett himself. And (2) Forsythe was a member of the clergy for many years in good standing.
Keep in mind there are clergy with poorer sourcing than Foysythe. It would be a nice example of how MCC gives people 2nd chances. Any opinions? [1] [2] [3] Lionel (talk) 23:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Why is this sex offender bit listed here under "Notable Clergy?" Outrageous! Every church of every denomination has had sex offenders and related controversy. Most of the other church listings, such the the "United Church of Christ" do not mention such things. I suggest it is due to prejudice against LGBT people and the MCC church the short article includes so much negative content including this full paragraph about Rev. Forsythe. Please correct this prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.74.13 (talk) 07:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. And how other articles treat the content you object to has no bearing on this article. See WP:OTHERSTUFF. Complimentary content enjoys no preference over unflattering content. Our main concern here is whether an addition is reliably sourced and verifiable.– Lionel ^(talk) 08:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

NPOV question on scandal & Cath. of Hope split

There is some disagreement as to how to treat the incidents described in the following paragraphs. One version reads as follows:

• In 2002 it was revealed that the Black Hills congregation of MCC had knowingly hired a convicted child molester. James A. Forsythe, a former Catholic priest, was in the ministry from the early 1990s until 2002.<:ref name='fountain'> Fountain, John (2002-05-08). "Gay Pastor's History of Abuse Shocks a South Dakota City". New York Times. Retrieved 2011-02-10.<:/ref><:ref name='thomas'> Thomas, Judy L. (2002-05-15). "Ex-Priest, Once Imprisoned, Resigns Ministry". Kansas City Star. Retrieved 2011-02-10.<:/ref>
  
• A scandal involving the flagship of the church as well as the largest gay church in the world, Cathedral of Hope (Dallas), occurred in 2003. Former board member Terri Frey accused Rev. Michael Piazza of financial impropriety prompting the UFMCC to open an investigation. A vote to disaffiliate from UFMCC passed with 88% support, effectivlely ending the UFMCC investigation. The split cost UFMCC 9% of its membership, and 7% of its annual operating budget. Church member Michael Magnia spoke to the larger issue of the church being too gay: "The tie with MCC was more about gays and lesbians. You're going to have a difficult time getting even progressive heterosexuals to come to a church that is anchored to a gay and lesbian church." <:ref>Caldwell, John (2003-09-30). "When the rainbow isn't enuf: a disagreement over its gay focus splits the world's largest GLBT denomination from its biggest church". The Advocate. Liberation Publications, Inc. Retrieved 2010-08-20. church member Michael Magnia. "The tie with MCC was more about gays and lesbians. You're going to have a difficult time getting even progressive heterosexuals to come to a church that is anchored to a gay and lesbian church."<:/ref>

The second version reads:

• In 2002, James A. Forsythe who was pastoring the Black Hills congregation was the subject of news stories relating to his pleading guilty to molesting a 15-year-old boy in the 1980's when he was a Catholic priest. MCC knew of the crime as well as his rehabilitation and was clear there were no incidents known. Forsythe was not charged and chose to resign from MCC.<:ref name='fountain'> Fountain, John (2002-05-08). "Gay Pastor's History of Abuse Shocks a South Dakota City". New York Times. Retrieved 2011-02-10.<:/ref><:ref name='thomas'> Thomas, Judy L. (2002-05-15). "Ex-Priest, Once Imprisoned, Resigns Ministry". Kansas City Star. Retrieved 2011-02-10.<:/ref>
  

• In 2003, Cathedral of Hope (Dallas), former board member Terri Frey accused Michael Piazza of financial impropriety prompting the UFMCC to open an investigation. A vote to disaffiliate from UFMCC passed with 88% support, effectivlely ending the UFMCC investigation. The split cost UFMCC 9% of its membership, and 7% of its annual operating budget.<:ref>Caldwell, John (2003-09-30). "When the rainbow isn't enuf: a disagreement over its gay focus splits the world's largest GLBT denomination from its biggest church". The Advocate. Liberation Publications, Inc. Retrieved 2010-08-20.<:/ref>

Which version do we feel is better for this article? Aristophanes68 (talk) 00:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Note that both versions use the same sources. I find the second version of the Forsythe gives more information (not charged, resigned) than the first version, and doesn't read like it's trying to re-create the scandal. The second version of the Piazza paragraph reads more neutrally as well, but it does cut the quote from Magnia-- but even the first version doesn't clearly make the connection between Magnia's comments and Piazza's financial issues. I'd like to see that comment explained better. Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Forsythe revision is inaccurate. He didn't garner national attention for molesting a 15 year old boy. He made national news because he was an offender who was pastor at a church.

Hope revision: there's NPOV and then there's censorship. The fact that Hope was already considering a split due to the gay affiliation issue was excised.

Current version of these items more accurate and preferable. Lionel (talk) 01:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I didn't revert, but I think this version preferable to the current version. The added Forsythe minutae may be WP:UNDUE, and should it remain a Controversy section may need to be added for Forsythe and Hope. Lionel (talk) 01:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Crap. I started making a few small edits and got carried away and didn't realize you had commented. Anyway, I left all the information, but added more details. I think the Forsythe case needs a lot more explanation—all taken from the news article—to make it seem less like a jab at the denomination. I also connected the Magnia quote more clearly to the issues of the investigation and the votes. I hope the present changes are acceptable. Nothing was removed; everything was expanded. The whole section is a mess, to be honest. Should the controversies get their own section? And the Madrid story seems tacked on. Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, it would be better not to have a Controversy section, but the History section is so unbalanced now, it may be a fait accompli. Lionel (talk) 01:52, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

You shoud know Upontheporch is a sockpuppet of user:benjiboi. Lionel (talk) 22:33, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Is there more information about beliefs and practices?

As a non-expert reader I would be interested in knowing more about the church, focusing on is similarities and differences from other forms of Christianity. With that in mind the beliefs and practices section appears to need expansion in the direction of adding more information about the theology of the church., and where does it fit in within the spectrum of world religion? There are numerous answerable questions which appear to be left unanswered. For instance:

• Is this a universalist church?
• Is its local organization congregational, a counsel of elders, a presiding pastor?
• Is it one of the Baptist sects?
• How fundamentalist is its belief system?

Thanks. Trilobitealive (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

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