Talk:Michael Cammalleri

Cammalleri

Isn't it a Maltese last name? This would make him Maltese, not Italian.

Norum 18:49, November 10, 2007 (UTC)

I think Cammalleri/Camilleri can be either Maltese or Italian. I've been trying to find out if he's Maltese or Italian too. Note how Michael Cammalleri spells his surname though, all my Maltese relatives spell it Camilleri.

My surname is Mazzitelli, I'm Italian. See the simalarities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.245.214.167 (talk) 19:09, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

2010 Playoffs

Why is there no mention of his 2010 playoff performance so far? He is leading the league in goals and is basically playing the best hockey of his career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pphresh (talk • contribs) 17:49, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

typically pages are updated after the completion of a season or post season and not in the middle--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 17:57, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

That and nobody has gotten around to it. I generally do updates on player articles I care about at the end of the season, but if you wish to make sourced additions to the article, feel free. Reso lute 23:28, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Jewish

Why is it so important to remove all mention of his being Jewish? It's mentioned briefly at the end and referenced. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:00, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

An SPA IP editor, I would not worry. Dbrodbeck (talk) 04:46, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

NHL playoff totals

His total playoff goals is wrong. 1+13+3=17, not 18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.75.181.75 (talk) 18:46, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

It sure is. Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 18:50, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

TRADED

Just announced on TSN at 9:50pm EST, January 12, 2012, traded to Calgary flames. 99.248.236.5 (talk) 02:52, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing has been confirmed. Wait until there is proper information. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:01, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed, long ago.99.245.37.46 (talk) 03:14, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if we should add a brief mention about the circumstances prior to the trade... i.e. his criticism of the team "being constantly losing" and also his coach on his ice time reduction since the firing of Jacques Martin. [1]. 173.179.155.183 (talk) 15:43, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

I was actually planning to re-write and expand this article (today, even). The circumstances surrounding the deal will definitely be mentioned. Reso lute 16:32, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Michael Cammalleri/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: GreatOrangePumpkin (talk · contribs) 11:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   very good and easy prose

   there should be more information about his religiosity; does he practice Jewish traditions? Or is he more liberal?

   Sources conflict on this point. The "Cammalleri is Jewish" opening line is not my addition but I realize that it isn't going anywhere without an edit war. one source says he observes Jewish holidays. Another says he was raised secular. A third gives no indication of the importance of religion in his life. Lacking a consistent message, I prefer to leave the section as is. Resolute 18:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   the "by whom" tag in the last picture's and the playing style section should be resolved.

   Reworded for clarity. Resolute 18:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

   high-quality sources

   overall good reference formatting, but the dates were inconsistent, so I changed to classic mdy format.

   I fixed one minor error in one reference

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   no trivia; focused

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   no bias

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   as semi-protected

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   high-quality pictures are properly licensed

7. Overall: I see you are a WikiCup entrant, and you have only 10 points :/. Sorry for the delay, I was busy, but also a bit lazy :).

   Pass/Fail:

   No worries on the Wikicup. If I was truly dedicated to it this year, I'dve had several articles queued up. Appreciate the review, and hopefully I have addressed your concerns. Thanks! Resolute 18:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

On being "Jewish"

Some users are trying to define him as "Jewish" rather than Italian or Canadian. Just to be clear, his mother is Jewish, he is not. From the actual sources in the article:

"My dad's family are immigrants from Italy and Catholics, and my grandmother on my mother's side is from Czech, and my grandfather is from Poland - and they're Holocaust survivors. I never had communion or a bar mitzvah," he added. "I was raised non-denominationally. --Львівське (говорити) 02:04, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

The RSs -- including the major RS Sports Illustrated -- identify him as Jewish, and one of them (JSR) only does so after checking with the player himself. The category "Jewish" is not mutually exclusive from Italian or Canadian -- the suggestion above that they are mutually exclusive is incorrect. Similarly, one can be Jewish without a bar mitzvah. That is irrelevant. Finally, one can be Jewish and be raised non-denominationally. So what we have here is someone identified as Jewish by the RSs, including major ones such as the SI, and who has been checked with personally. There is no reason to delete the information -- though I see the above editor has seen fit to strip certain hockey players of such information as to them being Jewish, for reasons that escape me, despite RS support.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:48, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

This is now original research on your part. If he says he's non-religious with a secular upbringing, you can't use secondary sources to prove him, a primary source, wrong.--Львівське (говорити) 02:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

"Sports Illustrated" have now become authorities on complex ethnic/economic/political issues? Hmm, Epeefleche, I seem to recall that during the Cold War SI often referred to athletes from the USSR as being Russians regardless of which part they were from (non-Slavic regions included), and the Soviet Union as Russia... ad hoc & ad nauseum! I'd rather not go to the trouble but, if needs be, I will dig out such articles for your edification. SI are not exactly renown for anything other than sports analysis and being a commercial concern more whose financial priorities lie with selling a story via popular headlines and bylines. It seems to me that this is a feeble argument for, "Sports Illustrated in a high profile periodical, therefore all of the information it carries is is legitimate simply by the fact of its being." By supporting SI's article you're basically saying that it's prudent to assume (or was no one taught that it makes 'an ass out of you and me' while at school)? Is there any proof that Cammalleri, personally, 'approved' of being tossed into the Jewish athletes section. Has he ever declared, "Yes, I'm Jewish and I'm proud of it." Of could, had he not been pleased with the article, he could have been 'morally righteous' and taken on SI in a law suit over this depiction (& ended up in debt & being called anti-Semitic). As it is, his personal stance is recorded as being, "My dad's family are immigrants from Italy and Catholics, and my grandmother on my mother's side is from Czech, and my grandfather is from Poland - and they're Holocaust survivors. I never had communion or a bar mitzvah," he added. "I was raised non-denominationally."' This strikes mas as being a fairly absolute personal stance on who he perceives himself to be... unless he's made further statements declaring himself to be Jewish since then. I would suggest that you read Jewish identity and Who is a Jew?. The jury is still out. Until a consensus is reached, Cammalleri has first dibs on who he sees himself as being. In the meantime, based on his statement, I'm certain you could have no objections to my popping the "Canadian atheists" template into this page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:58, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

If Cammalleri describes his ethnic background in terms of Italian, Polish, Czech and Catholic and not in terms of Judaism, then I'd be inclined to take his word on it before I took some bloke SI pays to put together photomontages for its website. Ravenswing 06:40, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

The sources make it clear from his own mouth that Cammalleri's Jewishness relate to ancestry, not religion. As such, the fact that his mother is Jewish deserves no greater attention than the fact that his father is Italian. The attempts to pull his Jewishness out and highlight it like this is giving undue weight. We don't start the section with "Cammalleri is Italian..." or "Cammalleri is an Italian Jew", and we should likewise not start with "Cammalleri is Jewish". We should make simple note of his Jewish ancestry, exactly as we do his Italian ancestry. Reso lute 17:29, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Hi Reso. First, please see my comments on this page as to JSR focusing on, as you put it, what comes out of his mouth. Second, please understand that in Judaism one is born Jewish based if they are born to a Jewish mother, as he was. I am not sure if you are born to an Italian mother, that you are ipso facto Italian, or that we have any refs at all saying "Cam is Italian," but if we do then certainly that is appropriate to reflect as well. And we can certainly reflect that his parent is Italian (whether or not that makes him Italian, as is the case with Judaism). Third, please see the most recently deleted reference. It is all of two words. And it is relevant because it relates to him, not just to his parents. And it comes at the end of the sentence. And it has a dozen refs, to RSs such as Sports Illustrated and the century-old Forward, and JSR, all of which say not simply that his mother was Jewish--but that he is Jewish. And since this article is about him, that is more relevant that what his mother is.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Because this is a WP:BIO and we can't have third hand or original research stuffing up his bio, I removed the WP:CITEKILL attempt per WP:BLPREMOVE (which says to "Remove immediately"). The sources were just blogs and online newspapers that made passing mention to him being "a jewish player". Of course, him being of Jewish descent would qualify him for such lists. However, without self-identification or a source confirming that he considers himself Jewish (or converted to Judaism after the fact, somehow), saying outright that he is "Jewish" is a very contentious thing to do. Of course, the sources confirming his secular beliefs and mother's Jewish background remain, and the category for canadians of jewish descent also remain - because they are properly cited. --Львівське (говорити) 20:37, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

• Repeated deletions by Lvivske of RSs, and RS-supported text. This editor continues -- despite robust discussion on his talk page (most of which he has deleted) and here -- to delete both RS refs (e.g., including Sports Illustrated, the Forward, etc.) and the text it supports. Most recently here. In that deletion, he deleted a dozen RSs that directly support the statement at hand, including one (JSR) that only does so after checking with the player himself. He clearly removed RSs. They clearly and flatly state the fact in question. This is completely inappropriate, and coupled with his efforts to strip other Jewish bios of appropriate RS-supported material is a concern. We have multiple RS stating flatly that he is Jewish, and one checks with the athlete and gets his input before making an assertion. One does not need to "have a bar mitzvah" to be Jewish. And one does not have to be raised in a religious household to be Jewish. Just look at the list of Jewish Nobel Prize winners, and all the discussion related to it.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:55, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

  Sure, but why should Cammalleri's Jewish ancestry be given such weight relative to his Italian ancestry? Reso lute 22:44, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

  Both are appropriate to reflect, if there is RS support. The "is Jewish" mention deleted here is all of two words. And supported by a dozen references. Yet this editor is deleting those two words, and the dozen supporting refs.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

  With respect, Epeefleche, using 11 references to try and justify two words is ridiculous, particularly when most of them are publications that exist to push a stong pro-Jewish POV. Regardless, my question remains unanswered. Why does his Jewish ancestry deserve to be highlighted in such fashion? It is already mentioned that he has Jewish ancestry through his mother, just as it is mentioned he has Italian ancestry through his father. I still don't see why "Mike Cammalleri is Jewish" is considered so important that it warrants being the very first thing stated in the article. Resolute 15:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

  In all honesty, who the hell cares about this? Is it that important what religion his grandmother is/was? I find it hard to fathom how this is at all notable. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

  And I'm sorry, but now we're talking about a BLP issue. If Cammalleri does not identify as Jewish, claims that he is should not be given heavy weight in the article ... and truth be told, I'm inclined to regard publications that can be considered to have an interest in "See! There are lots of Jewish athletes!" over the athletes themselves to be on shaky footing in the WP:IRS department. Having a Jewish grandparent, it's possible myself to claim Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, but 75% of my ancestry is not Jewish, nevertheless. Ravenswing

• But he does identify as Jewish. See my comments above and below. And this is more than (though it would be enough) the fact that he is born Jewish--by being born to a Jewish mother. He is also listed by JSR, which by its procedures lists only those athletes whom they contact who identify personally with being Jewish. In your case, if you were contacted by JSR, and were to say you did not identify as being Jewish, you would not be reflected as such. As to the publications and books, they are RSs -- from Sports Illustrated to the Forward (a newspaper well over a century old that is indubitably an RS) to JSR (relied upon by all manner of other RSs) to the others, and are accepted as such across the project. And we have a number of them here -- about a dozen, of all stripes.Epeefleche (talk) 00:02, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

  I beg your pardon, Epeefleche, but you changed the article after this latest discussion on THIS talk page despite the fact that the only responses were from 3 editors/contributors who disagreed with your POV, even specifying their reasons for not accepting the RS refs. I have also noted that there were no responses in your favour. Could you indicate where in the cited articles it is specified that Cammalleri was personally interviewed by the journalist in question? I'm not particularly interested in your accusation regarding Lvivske's talk page. It seems that you've taken it upon yourself to add your POV to the article without waiting for further input and some form of consensus regarding the matter simply because it didn't suit you personally. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:08, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

• In terms of Iryna's comments -- I see to my surprise that you are a rather new editor. Welcome. I commend you on how quickly you have edited like a long-term editor. Responding to your comment, I added a number of sources to the article when I changed it. I did not add POV -- I added RSs. RSs that are relied on throughout the project, and that have been determined to be RSs, ranging from Sports Illustrated to the Forward to JSR. And a good number more. You may have a view that differs from Sports Illustrated. But we rely on RSs, not on individual editors' views. JSR's criteria require, for an athlete to be reflected as Jewish, among other things that he personally identify ethnically as a member of the Jewish community. JSR reaches out to each such athlete personally, to see if that is the case. It also requires that one of his parents be Jewish (unless he converted), and that he not practice any other religion. If an athlete has a Jewish parent but was raised in, or converted to, another faith, or indicated to JSR that he did not wish to be considered Jewish, he is excluded (even though under Jewish law he might be considered Jewish). Here, JSR has identified the player as Jewish, and we know per their procedures that they did this after contacting him and him meeting their criteria.

Epeefleche (talk) 00:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the welcome, Epeefleche. It's a pleasure to meet you. I have, in fact, looked at the sources cited when you added them to the article before they were reverted. While I understand the rationale for your inclusions, I'm actually concerned with WP:BLPSTYLE. If his Jewishness is given this much attention then his Italian background should be given as much weight. I don't believe these issues to be of great consequence and are unduly weighting the bio away from the man as a sports star. If he were outspoken on issues of ethnicity, I certainly wouldn't have any objections to tracts dedicated to his ethnicity. Tacit/passive agreement to be recognised as having Jewish ethnics in his background don't fall into this category. I have also directed you to the articles (above in earlier comment) in Wikipedia regarding disputes within the Jewish community as to how Jewishness is defined. I have no objection to such citations in the reflist if they are placed in an appropriate section of the article. To have a lengthy mass of text within the article on the subject, along with an exhaustive list of citations, is inappropriate within this context. The crux of the matter lies with perception of himself<-- (it doesn't show the relevant page, being page 3) which simply doesn't tally with warranting so much information regarding his Jewishness. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

This entire discussion is about the deletion of 2 words. "is Jewish." The 2 words are at the end of sentence. I don't see a weight problem. The 2 words are supported by a dozen refs (now, after multiple deletions when they had fewer refs) -- it is fine to limit that to even 1 ref, or 2, or 3, IMHO. And if we have a ref saying that he is Italian, we should add "is Italian," with that ref. No issue there.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the change is heavily weighted. I'm from Australia and have never even heard of Cammilleri in my life. I truly stumbled across this article and have no vested interest in the man on any level. I read the article as neutral user of Wikipedia wanting to find out something about this player because of a Canadian neighbour who is ice-hockey mad. Your amendments have been placed in the introductory piece on his early life. As per your revisions, "Cammalleri was born in Richmond Hill, Ontario, and is Jewish, and was raised in a secular household (he describes his upbringing as "non-denominational")." is very, very different to, "Cammalleri was born in Richmond Hill, Ontario, and was raised in a secular household (he describes his upbringing as "non-denominational")." Your 3 words have been strategically placed to change the complexion of this section completely. It is already noted that his mother is of a Jewish background. I find this additional information to be not only superfluous but distracting from the content. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying -- here I thought you might have appeared at this talk page because of a different reason. Quite odd that you came to this particular talk page the way that you describe, you have to admit. Baffling, almost.

He is Jewish. That is beyond cavil, and reflected in 12 refs. He was Jewish at birth. The fact is reflected in the sentence in his personal section about him -- that is the logical place to reflect it. It is a sentence fragment. How could it be shorter? It can't. The reflection of his being Jewish is of course different than reflecting the religion of a parent -- since this is an article about him, not his parent, it is even more relevant to reflect his religion. And on top of that we have more sources reflecting his religion, and one has the procedure of checking with him.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Not so baffling considering that Chris (my Canadian neighbour) happens to be a chef - and a terrific chef at that. Unfortunately, despite her best efforts, his wife can't stop him from babbling on about about ice-hockey. In the interests of fine dining, rather than being bored to death, I thought it might be nice to familiarise myself with some of his heroes and the like. Mind you, if you hear of a woman in Australia beating a man to death with his hockey bag it'll probably be me. Have you ever been caught downwind of someone who's just returned from his weekly hockey game and insists on cornering you with a blow by blow description of the game? Ugh! I digress. I still have a problem with featuring Cammalleri's Jewishness in such a manner. I don't see how it can be added without clarification of the Jewish laws that have been applied to this status and are not necessarily perceived as being applicable in this day and age within the Jewish community itself. This would amount to a convoluted, long winded explanation of arguments for and against the label attributed. Given the context, I feel it to be inappropriate... and your suggested approach of, "he is Jewish" (despite the 'evidence' you have supplied) is a terrible oversimplification. I am sorry that I honestly don't feel that it sits comfortably with me as I do understand and sympathise with where you're coming from. The fact is that, given other vital facts surrounding his bio, this 'fact' doesn't fit within the context of his bio. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• We have a good selection of mainstream media reporting that he is Jewish. This appears to be open and shut.--38.98.96.194 (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Rather than doubling up, as you've done, please see my response below in the sources section. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Sources

This is just an aside, but are we really living in a world now where a Sports Illustrated blog "best of" photo slider counts as an RS? Since a lot of sources are being used, here's my breakdown with objections. Three sources actually nearly verbatim follow the current page format of my edits - a direct contradiction to how they were misused.--Львівське (говорити) 14:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Professional Hockey Review: 2010–11; National Hockey League|journal=Jewish Sports Review - user claims that every person in the magazine is fool proof verified. Their website makes me think this is a low quality operation, I'm not sure if this qualifies as a reliable source...maybe it is? I'll let others weigh in. This magazine, and other refs used below also remind me of The Ukrainian Weekly, which also reports on Ukrainian players but I'm dubious as to how much fact checking was done.

• http://www.jewishtribune.ca/tribune/jt-041214-28.html - dead link

• http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1008/prominent.jewish.athletes/content.21.html - this is just a photo slider, not a reliable source

• book - no direct mention of him being jewish. Obviously, it's the book's subject but for all we know this slots under the "Jewish descent" category

• http://forward.com/articles/2136/clarification/ - Seems reliable, despite being under a section called "The Shmooze". Still don't know if this is "of descent" or de facto IMO because it's only passing mention of "oh, cammalleri is jewish too" without quantifying it

• http://www.jstandard.com/index.php/content/item/3159 - more passing mention, "along with halpern and cammalleri, schnieder is a jew in the nhl"

• http://njjewishnews.com/kaplanskorner/2011/10/12/jews-on-ice-oct-12-cams-out-for-two-weeks/ - is this a blog? no mention of him being jewish, just a video (and it's associated with a jewish newspaper, but this is WP:SYNTH at this point)

• http://njjewishnews.com/kaplanskorner/2011/03/28/jice-update-march-28/ - same source as above...

• http://www.jewsinsports.org/profile.asp?sport=hockey&ID=39 - self published, uses JSR as a its reference. "Cammalleri, whose mother is Jewish, was born in Ontario." is all it says.

• www.sandiegojewishworld.com/2009-SDJW-Quarter4/20091013-Tuesday/20091013-joey-seymour.html - good source, but it also sticks to my own version of the page, as it says flatly "Cammalleri was born in Richmond Hill, Ontario, on June 8, 1982 to a Jewish mother, Ruth and an Italian father, Leo"

• http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/67463/celebrity-jews17/ - he's mentioned but nothing is mentioned about his jewishness at all

• http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/41080/jews-and-mel-on-the-big-screen-winter-sports-roundup/ - this is fresh, "Cammalleri, who was raised secular, [is] the son of a Jewish mother and non-Jewish father."

It's fine to just say his mother is Jewish. People who define "Jew" matrilineally will conclude that he's Jewish, people who don't will conclude otherwise. The question of what makes one Jewish is as old as Judaism itself, there's no point in pretending otherwise and we shouldn't feel bound by the Jewish Sports Review's definition. Obviously if Cammalleri had a Jewish dad, an Italian mom but said that he identified as a Jew and was raised in the Jewish faith and culture, nobody would be here claiming "no no no, he can't be a Jew". I think history has shown that letting outsiders cook up rules to put the "Jew" label on people who don't identify as Jews isn't a great idea. The facts are plain: his mother is Jewish, his father is a Catholic Sicilian. Beyond that, someone who doesn't specifically identify with the Jewish culture or the Jewish faith (and really there's no sign that he does) shouldn't be labeled as a Jew. Pichpich (talk) 04:35, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

• We have a good selection of mainstream media reporting that he is Jewish. This appears to be open and shut. It makes zero sense to me that you would say it is fine to say his mother is Jewish but argue against saying he is Jewish. The reason we are happy saying that his mother is Jewish is because we have a good selection of mainstream media reporting that he is Jewish. It is exactly the same with MC. It is in fact better with MC because we have more mainstream media reporting it. No media says he is not Jewish, and no Jewish segment says that children of Jewish mothers aren't Jewish, so just report what the media reports. Which is that he is Jewish. Really seems open and shut. The arguments against it seem to be either by people who are totally ignorant, or want to replace mainstream media reports with their personal analysis which is not supported by mainstream media. I'm not saying they are anti-anything. I'm saying that they don't understand, or choose not to understand, and they are replacing the mainstream media with their own thinking, rather than reflecting it.--38.98.96.194 (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Please define 'mainstream media'. The Sports Illustrated entry has been dismissed for good reasons (please read the comments regarding its validity) while I don't see how media targeted at (&, I would imagine written by) the Jewish demographic specifically could be understood to be 'mainstream'. Considering that Cammalleri appears to be, or have been, a high-profile notable, why aren't there a plethora of truly 'mainstream' sources referencing his Jewishness? Bear in mind that this is a biography about a living person, the prudent decision is to err on the side of caution. I'm sorry but, as an argument(!?), "No media says he is not Jewish" is simply a non-starter. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Miss Harpy, don't you agree that JSR and Jweekly is an RS to his Jewishness? I won't argue about other dozen refs, the rest must go, but those two in my opinion should stay.--Mishae (talk) 15:56, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Mishae and IP 38.98.96.194 that we have sufficient support as to his being Jewish. The only reason for adding more than one or two refs is to show how emphatically supported by refs the two words are. Looking simply at one source above, Jewish Sports Review is clearly an RS, is clearly considered so by wikipedia, and is cited as such by media, is reported on by the New York Times and others, and it checks with the player or their representative before listing the person as such.[2]

Simliarly, others above are RSs. For example, The Jewish Tribune (Canada), the book Day by Day in Jewish Sports History, New Jersey Jewish News, The Forward, the New Jersey Jewish Standard, Jweekly in its article "Jews on Ice," Jweekly in its article "Jews and Mel on the Big Screen" ("Michael Cammalleri, 27, forward, Montreal Canadiens (last year, with the Calgary Flames, “Cam” really came into his own as a star player and scored 39 goals, the highest total ever by a Jewish NHL player)), etc.

As discussed above, being Jewish (unlike, say, being Christian) does not mean per se that one practices a religion, but rather that one is a member of an ethnoreligious group. We have on Wikipedia, for example, a list of Jewish atheists.

Plus, even since this conversation started we have had the newspaper Haaretz devote an article to him, with the title: "Mike Cammalleri breaks all-time Jewish NHL record", discussing how he set "records for a Jewish NHL player in a season" and "closed in on Schneider’s career goals record for a Jewish player" and his salary is "the most ever earned by a Jewish NHL player" and he is one of "active Jewish NHL players". This is an entire article, certainly not a passing reference, and it is in a high-level RS. And we have also had the New Jersey Jewish News report: "Michael Cammalleri, the all-time leader in goals by a Jewish player with 247, signed with the New Jersey Devils for 2014. He spent the previous year with the Calgary Flames."[3] Epeefleche (talk) 23:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

My original objections from a year and a half ago (!) remain standing. And it appears you still have not answered the question I posed then. Jewish publications are going to talk up the Jewishness of people. That does not mean we need to throw Cammalleri's Jewish ancestry into the reader's face needlessly. Resolute 00:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

RS Jewish publications are RSs for Jewish subjects. Just as any RS US publications are RSs for US subjects, RS Christian publications are RSs for Christian subjects, etc. The question is whether the publication is an RS. If it is an RS, we don't discriminate against it because it is a Jewish publication. And as should be self-evident, Jewish publications, of course, are most likely to talk about and be RSs on Jewish subjects.

And Haaretz (an RS Israeli newspaper; not a "Jewish" publication) has an entire article speaking to this multiple times, that came out after this discussion started -- far more than a passing reference.

Plus, I'm perplexed by your last comment. That's like saying, let's not use Jet as an RS source for the fact that "person x" was Black. Because: "we do not need to throw his Black ancestry into the reader's face needlessly." I'm not sure where to even start, in responding to that. Epeefleche (talk) 05:03, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I am wondering why his Jewishness would be compared to "throwing" something in the reader's face? Bus stop (talk) 06:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The wording that was attempted to be inserted a year and a half ago treated his Jewish ancestry as the most important fact that needed to be the very first thing stated in the article body. That is what this entire meandering thread is about. The goal is to separate his Jewish ancestry from the statements that already note his Jewish ancestry and pull it right up front. Needlessly. Resolute 15:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The issue is (and has been) the deletion of the 2 words: "is Jewish". The 2 words are supported by all the above RS refs, both "Jewish" and non-Jewish RS refs, in publications in different countries, including articles/books both long (full-length Haaretz article/title) and short.

As to where the 2 words are inserted - that hasn't been the focus. It's not as though Resolute kept on inserting the 2 RS-supported words, but later in the body. But in any case usually at WP we mention ethnicity at the point where we mention where the person was born. Because (obviously) ethnicity attaches at the beginning of the subject's life. And articles tend to be chronological.

I also think the record that the entire Haaretz article/heading focuses on deserves brief one-sentence mention. That, too, was deleted in the expurgation effort. Epeefleche (talk) 22:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)