Talk:Michael Jordan/Archive 4

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Terry Francona?

Is it really necessary that this, "(his manager was current Red Sox manager Terry Francona, who has won 2 World Championships). [43]" be in this article? Even though it is cited, it doesn't seem to fit in with the section. Comments? Burner0718 (talk) 20:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it does not belong in the article. It seems the majority of us agree that it should not be included, it's completely trivial and adds nothing to the article. Zodiiak (talk) 04:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

FACTS about opinion

I KNOW I am right in stating that, according to Wikipedia's policy, facts about a given opinion are allowable. In the instance of stating that Michael Jordan is "widely considered the greatest...", that is a fact of opinion. It is encyclopedic - and it would in fact be unencyclopedic to state it any other way because it would grossly understate the given person's importance to the game of basketball. For example, look at Wayne Gretzky's description in this very website. Gretzky is cited as the greatest player by the Official NHL Encyclopedia just as Jordan is cited (or should I say citable?) as the greatest player by the Official NBA Encyclopedia... I don't see how there is even a debate over this? Jordan even has an entire chapter in the NBA encyclopedia. The only other player to receive that recognition is George Mikan, and that is for Mikan's revolutionary changes to the game.

A phrasing of "widely considered one of the greatest" could imply any of the greatest players... but Michael Jordan isn't considered "one of the greatest"... he's considered "the greatest", and that fact of opinion only seems to gain strength as time passes.

For example, here is a list of select sports and news authorities that have echoed this sentiment.

• National Basketball Association (the ultimate authority...)
• ESPN (the sports authority...)
• The Associated Press
• SLAM magazine
• The [Summer] Olympic Committee
• The New York Times
• The Boston Globe
• USA Today —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.252.30 (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes you draw an appreciable distinction but unfortunately this discussion has been had before and there was strong resistance to using "the greatest" (just scroll up, you'd see the dissent there). Since you realise that the Gretsky article attributes the source of the opinion, if you do wish to change the phrasing, it should be a qualified statement, i.e. attributing the source of the opinion. And reference it properly. But, I can't guarantee it'd stand. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

If it would stand for Gretzky, there is no reason to think it would not for Jordan. It also agrees with all Wikipedia policies, doesn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.252.30 (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I know people have been reverting this user, but his reference does basically support the claim he is making. Zagalejo^^^ 05:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I still think it should be a specific attribution. Merely saying "widely considered" without saying by whom recreates the same problems. If it is specifically stated that it is NBA's view that he is the GOAT, I think that sort of statement is less controversial, and clearer. Flooding the refs with a variety of sources isn't going to corroborate the claim of "widely considered" either, because it will still be difficult to pin down on a number. Note that my comments do not represent a personal or wikipolicy-rooted endorsement of saying MJ is the GOAT. Chensiyuan (talk) 08:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

There are also sources like the ones we already cite in the Legacy section. Zagalejo^^^ 17:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

If a secondary source is to be listed, I would assume that ESPN's page listing him as the #1 athlete of all time would be best, since that is such an outright claim to GOAT... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.252.30 (talk) 05:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If thousands of professional journalists, millions and millions of fans in thousands upon thousands of polls aren't enough to convince the moderators of Wikipedia that the general consensus of both the professional basketball community (Hell, even the APBR have made it undisputed and they're essentially the God's of statistical breakdown) and the general make up of our communities consider Michael Jordan the greatest player of all time... even despite the OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF THE NBA "By *ACCLAMATION* Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever"... then there's an obvious bias standpoint here.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Sorry. It's irrational, illogical and ultimately a shame to the validity of this website.

- Jan 18, '08. Ryan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.206.51 (talk) 12:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That didn't add anything to any of the arguments, unfortunately. Ultimately, the reader of a WP article has to know re: opinions -- (1) who said so; (2) proof of such a statement. Any other form of rhetoric detracts from the core policies of WP. I don't agree with the "core policies" all the time, but any different it'd be another encyclopedia, not WP. Chensiyuan (talk) 15:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The argument seems to have been presented and proven already. There is no debating a fact of opinion... he is considered the greatest by virtually every expert source there is, nevermind the top authorities like the NBA, the AP, ESPN. "widely" would imply around 60% anyhow... the percentage of sources that actually consider him the greatest is way above 60%, probably in the 90 percentiles. The official authority on the issue, the NBA, even credits him as the greatest ever. They do not use this kind of description when referring to any other player. The NBA calls other greats "stars" or "legendary" or "dominant", they aren't called "the greatest". Stating or sourcing this is NPOV.--129.105.4.169 (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Refs needed

I slapped a couple of fact tags in the Im Back and First three peat sections. Would try to find something... Chensiyuan (talk) 16:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

All good now, seems Aaron Bowen has added the refs already. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Second sentence misrepresents source

" Proclaimed by the National Basketball Association (NBA) as the "greatest player of all time" "

Really? The source says: "By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time." (my emphasis). That's not the NBA declaring anything, all they've said there is: "Most people think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time"... which is true, because most people do.

So... yeah. The second sentence is wrong to declare that the NBA have "proclaimed" him the greatest basketball player of all time. All they've done is recognise that a lot of people think he's the greatest basketball player of all time. It's an opinion I share, but I don't think misrepresenting the source is a great idea.(86.1.172.34 (talk) 04:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC))

Won't object to modifying the sentence. Chensiyuan (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

How about "Recognized by the National Basketball Association..." ? Josh Dunkelman (talk) 17:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if it'll stick, but I've made a change using that. I think the acclamation part needs to be there also to fix the problem. --Onorem♠Dil 17:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I support this change Chris! _ct 17:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It might even be better to change it to "Recognized on his profile at nba.com as... " --Onorem♠Dil 18:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's stop pushing the POV policy on this page. I think what I just put up there is most encyclopedic. Any type of statement where we push the fact that he is the "greatest of all time" is highly unencyclopedic POV. I think most people would be OK with "Widely considered one of the greatest players of all time" Before you head off to hit the edit button plz pay close to attention to the operative word in that sentence - *ONE*

He is not by stats, championships or any other measurable statistic the "greatest of all time" He is one of the greatest of all time for sure and if that is all that is stated I think everyone will be happy. Otherwise we can quote the "by acclaim" line from the NBA site and leave it at that. The line I just changed was wrong grammatically as well which is really unacceptable. Please look at the explanation of the word "acclaim" above or consult a dictionary before considering editing that sentence above. --KK5000 4:57 AM, 3 April, 2008 (EDT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kk5000 (talk • contribs) 08:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Need Jordan's Olympic medal record

The main page is close to perfect, and yet it is missing one obvious piece, his medal record in the Olympics. See Bill Russell for an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illadelph halflife (talk • contribs) 18:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I see that it's included separately now. But shouldn't the medal record be under the infobox? It seems to be that way for all other basketball players... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illadelph halflife (talk • contribs) 18:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Basketball signed by Jordan given to Kim Jong-Il

I think it's noteworthy (and speaks to the fact that Jordan is such a huge figure / personality / icon internationally) that when Sec. Albright visited reclusive North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il, one item she brought as an olive branch was basketball signed by Jordan. Someone with editing privileges should add this, I think.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/quiz/questions/0,,2014129,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.234.250 (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Error, Place of Birth/Home State

IIRC, Jordan was born in New York City (Brooklyn, or Bronx...can't remember), not North Carolina. So, stating that North Carolina is his "home state" is probably not accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrTortFeasor33 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Birth Place and Hometown are two different things. A Birth place solely generally represents where a person was born, whereas a 'hometown' generally represents where a person was raised. However I guess it would not hurt to clarify the statement. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  07:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

1991 Eastern Conference Finals vs. the Detroit Pistons

"In an unusual ending to the fourth and final game, Isiah Thomas led the Pistons off the court when there was still time remaining on the clock, choosing to forfeit the game instead of shaking hands with the Bulls."

this game was not forfeit, it ended in regulation and the pistons players walked off as time expired. a minor thing, but it should be stated correctly. Mister chi (talk) 04:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the final 7.9 seconds were ever officially played, but yeah, the game wasn't counted as a forfeit, as far as I can tell. I reworded that section of the article. Zagalejo^^^ 05:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Michael Jordan No longer holds the record for most finals wins.

Somewhere under the second three peat heading in mentions Jordan having the record with six final wins, however now the holder is Robert Horry with seven. I don't know how to cite properly, or I would do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.197.204 (talk) 05:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if someone removed it or not, but I haven't seen it in the article. It says he has the record for most finals MVP, which is true. Zodiiak (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't Bill Russell have eleven.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Link Update

The link for "Bad Boys" under the "Mid-career: Pistons roadblock" section should be updated to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Pistons#1980s:_The_Bad_Boys_Era Esaba (talk) 07:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I just updated the link. Good catch on your part. Giants2008 (talk) 23:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Template collapsing

I don't like the way all the succession boxes and navigation templates are collapsed under a misleadingly-titled box.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 13:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

How would you like them presented? The templates and boxes take up a lot of space, since there are so many of them. This is a common issue for athletes like Jordan who have won a lot of awards and championships. I like the way it is now. The boxes are there if the reader is interested, and they don't get in the way. I do agree with you on the title, though, as they aren't really links. Would "Succession boxes and navigation templates" be any better? Giants2008 (talk) 15:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see a parameter for changing the title of the template. Does anyone know if this is possible? Giants2008 (talk) 17:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Player Profile Mistake

In the Player Profile, it suggests that Hakeem Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to win the MVP and Defensive Player of the Year awards in the same season. This is untrue; Michael Jordan also did so in 1988. This must be rectified immediately.

Actually, it says that "Olajuwon also won both during the same season". Zagalejo^^^ 16:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It didn't explicitly say that Jordan won both in a season, so I understand the confusion. I re-worded the text slightly to make clear that Olajuwon was the second player to earn both awards in the same season. Giants2008 (talk) 03:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Philanthropy

I couldn't find any mention of MJ's charity work. Is this just an oversight, or is he not an active philanthropist? If he is, I think it should be noted and put in under personal life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.34.245.67 (talk) 04:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I know he is involved in at least some charity work. See [1] and [2]. We should probably mention that stuff somewhere. His reputation is hurt somewhat by statements like "Republicans buy sneakers too" -- many people think he is too apolitical and too hesitant to get involved with social causes. [3] Zagalejo^^^ 08:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I added a sentence on the donations linked above to the post-retirement section; please check to see how it looks. It would be great to have a general overview of his charitable activities, but I haven't seen a lot of media attention given to this. Ironic, considering how much has been written about Jordan. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Larry Martin Demery link is wrong

It's linked to Jordan Sr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Accent (talk • contribs) 16:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It's the result of a redirect. Some other editor felt that the Demery article was too bare and a redirect to Jordan Sr's page was appropriate. Not the best solution but I'm just telling you the explanation. Chensiyuan (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

In that case, is there any reason for Demery to be linked at all, considering that there's a James Jordan link in the same sentence? Would anyone object if I removed this? Giants2008 (17-14) 00:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Np removing. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. Giants2008 (17-14) 15:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Jordan Pictures

I think all pictures are great except three. The picture of his jersey hanging in the rafters is out of place, he never really was a dominant college player to begin with, and this picture just highlights how good N.C. was. Maybe putting up a picture of his "major turning point" game winning shot that he took, or at least of him on the court. Secondly, and most noticeably, the picture with the caption of him winning the rookie of the year is actually a picture of him at least about 8 years later. Finally, as this site is neutral and ad free, I think the picture describing his "signature exposed tongue"(the duplicated picture) should be removed the second time as well, as having the photographer's name in the filename of the picture is completely unneccesary, and the picture is not even that good. I also would recommend possibly adding one more picture, since there is so much ground to cover with MJ.--Raiders5242 (talk) 22:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia's image use policy limits us to certain types of pictures - preferably, images in the public domain, or images licensed under a free license. Other images can sometimes be included if a fair use rationale is provided, but the powers-that-be tend to discourage such images.

So, basically, we're often forced to use less-than-ideal images in our articles on contemporary figures. I'm sure there are some other good free images of Jordan "out there", but it might take some effort to find them. Zagalejo^^^ 23:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I did remove the duplicated picture. I'm not sure if it's possible to change the file name, though. As for the North Carolina picture, I'll let others chime in. Zagalejo^^^ 23:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Zagelejo is right. Free images are always preferred on Wikipedia, even if they aren't perfect. The problem I have is with the North Carolina images, which are bunched together in the text. I think the jersey photo is in a good spot, but the one of MJ and Dean Smith is cutting off a header line, which is bad. I think this should be moved, either down a smidge to Early career or possibly to the awards list. Any thoughts? Giants2008 (17-14) 23:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dean Smith picture might fit next to the awards list, since that section mentions the NCAA championship. Zagalejo^^^ 03:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and therefore moved it to that spot. Also found a picture of a plaque at the United Center that used to be in the article and re-added it. Not sure why it was removed, but there's the additional picture that Raiders asked for. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

He looks fat in his main picture. We should get a picture when he was skinnier. I know I look fat now too, but a legend should never become this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.75.55 (talk) 00:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is the lead picture at the top of the page MJ on the golf course? Surely there must be a free basketball-related pic out there. The golf pic gives the wrong impression about MJ's significance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.28.53 (talk) 08:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

We use to use this image, file:Michael Jordan.jpg. I'm not sure why it was changed - It seems perfect for an infobox IMO --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  14:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Link FA|ca

Who can should add the link featured artcle in the catalan wiki--Ssola (talk) 22:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I added this for you, but feel free to make any similar changes yourself in the future. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Pls add a IW link to Wuu

[[wuu:米迦勒．佐敦]]

Thanks !! 203.35.82.136 (talk) 11:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

#5 jersey?

It says Jordan wore jersey No. 5. If so, when? 23 with the Bulls and Wizards, 45 after the first come back, 9 during the Olympics and 12 when his jersey was stolen. But when number 5? Or is this an error? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.166.18 (talk) 07:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

He might have worn five at the Pan-Am games in 1983, but I'm not sure. I'll ask the person who added that to the article. Zagalejo^^^ 19:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I for one think that the numbers 23 45 and 9 are the only numbers that should be listed on here. Even if he wore number 5 for the pan am games I dont think that should be listed as his official jersey number. number 12 was a number that he himself did not pick and never actually was an official number of his so I really dont think it should be in here. Jesus christ its like a cluttered mess on that part of the infobox, three numbers would be enough for me. Chasesboys (talk) 01:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree it's cluttered, so not ideal. Personally, I'd leave out 12, because it's really just a piece of trivia, and, as you say, was never an 'official' number. On the other hand, 5 was, if only for one tournament and not very well-known. It's not really less notable than wearing 9 in two tournaments. There's not much point of including a series of jersey numbers, in itself not really notable, then excluding some on an arbitrary basis. If this list is included, it should be based on policy - I'm sure there are other relevant policies, but WP:Abundance_and_redundancy supports including more information, not less. hippo43 (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

So no one has a problem if I take out the number 12 on the infobox? If no one does I will remove it because it really is trivia, it would be like lebron james getting his jersey stolen and him having to wear number 12 for one game, and then list it has his official jersey number on wikipedia along with 23 when it really has no reason to be in there, now it could be included as a tid bit in the regular article but not in the infobox. Chasesboys (talk) 04:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me. Also perhaps change to 'Jersey number: 23 (also 45, 9, 5)' or something similar?hippo43 (talk) 13:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes Jordan wore Number 5 in the Pan-American Games in Mexico ... and just like #12 its not that important... he might have wore a different number for the Team USA tour of Europe for the FIBA 50th Anniversary as well..

Jordan no longer holds the record for highest number of points in a single game

Doesnt Kobe have that record now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.64.28 (talk) 16:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jordan never had that record. Wilt Chamberlain does - 100 points. I believe Jordan's personal best was 63. Useight (talk) 16:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Jordan's personal best was 69 with a career high 18 rebounds the same game. The 63 points he scored was against Boston in the playoffs -- an NBA Playoff record. Zodiiak (talk) 19:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jordan/Dirk Graham

I want to make it clear that in 1992, both the Chicago Bulls and the Chicago Blackhawks reached their respective league's finals. Dirk Graham was captain of the Blackhawks at that time. That's the only reason why I mention Dirk Graham. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 18:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

But none of that increases the reader's understanding of Michael Jordan. It's just a random connection. Zagalejo^^^ 19:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Jordan Inducted into Hall of Fame

The sentence, "He was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame on April 6, 2009.[3]" is inaccurate. Michael Jordan's election into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame was announced on April 6, 2009. He will be enshrined into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame on September 11, 2009 in Springfield, Massachusetts, the birthplace of basketball.

All of the info can be found on http://hoophall.com/genrel/040609aaa.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhof (talk • contribs) 14:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I updated the article. "Inducted is a better word" is the worst rationale I've ever heard. Let's edit the Obama article to say he was inaugurated in November 2008 while we're at it :/ Geoffrey Spear (talk) 17:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of his other passions, and pursuits. Golf and motorcycle racing.. He founded and runs Michael Jordan motorsports.. http://www.23race.com/ a professional motorcycle road racing team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.146.8.152 (talk) 01:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

They are mentioned. See Michael_Jordan#After_retiring_as_a_player. Zagalejo^^^ 04:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

little joke going on?

Even though I'm not the biggest Jordan fan it seems to me that something is wrong with the quote "By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the worst basketball player of all time... by far." The source says "greatest" and not "worst". This part of the text is located in the very beginning of the article. Im not able to correct it but maybe somebody of you will :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.89.159.242 (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

You must have seen a vandalized version. According to the edit history, it's been reverted already. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Harvest Smith

I believe Harvest Smith should be included on Michael Jordan's page in the Early years section. If you're not familiar, Smith was the high school friend and teammate who beat out Jordan for the last spot on the Laney High varsity basketball squad when they were both sophomores. Jordan has cited "The Cut" as a major turning point in his drive to succeed. In fact, he even signed into hotels as "Leroy Smith" well into his pro career. Here are some reference sources:

NBA.com - Playing for Keeps book excerpt: http://www.nba.com/jordan/halberstam_jordan.html

Sports Illustrated Vault: http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1140178/index.htm

Dallas Morning News: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19980111&slug=2728054

I think this is an important part of Jordan's legacy and adds depth to the story. I created a Harvest Smith page btw and here's how I'd envision the addition in the context of the existing Early years section:

"He tried out for the varsity basketball team during his sophomore year, but at 5'11" (1.80 m), was deemed too short to play at that level and was cut. However, his 6’7” (2.01m) friend Harvest Smith was selected for the lone sophomore spot on the team, providing motivation for Jordan throughout his amateur and professional career."

Of course, I haven't made this edit since the page is locked. I look forward to comments and hopeful inclusion of this important historical fact on Jordan's page.

Gliburd (talk) 12:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it might be interesting to briefly mention who beat him out in high school. But isn't the guy more commonly known as Leroy Smith? Zagalejo^^^ 18:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge he was known as "Leroy Smith" in high school, but now goes by "Harvest Smith" since "Leroy" was his middle name. The articles refer to him in the present as Harvest, who was known as Leroy back in the day (MJ signed his name as "Leroy Smith" as mentioned). I agree that it should just be a brief mention. How does the edit process work on locked articles? Gliburd (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is only semi-protected, which means you should be able to edit it soon, once you're autoconfirmed. I can add the Harvest Smith bit myself, but I'll wait a little while to see if anyone else chimes in. Zagalejo^^^ 03:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no reason why we should not expand the article a bit to include this bit of info. I'm in favor of adding it, so long as we note his full name -- Harvest LeRoy Smith. Zodiiak (talk) 06:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough to give it a quick mention, and I like the adjustments proposed in the existing sentence. Only thing to watch is that none of the links have all of the facts to be added. I'd use the Dallas Morning News/Seattle Times reference, which mentions everything except the friendship between Jordan and Smith. For that, the book excerpt covers it nicely. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. How do updates happen to a locked article? Should I revise my suggested addition with these references and/or does someone make the update? Gliburd (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

You can try adding it yourself, and others can make any necessary tweaks. You should be able to edit the article yourself now. The one thing I'm still wondering about is Smith's height, since the sources give three different figures. Which height should we go with? Zagalejo^^^ 18:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

How about just saying that Smith was taller? That way, the exact height isn't as important. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

That could probably work. Zagalejo^^^ 04:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Anyone have an authoritative source for Smith's height? The three sources above say three different things. Zagalejo^^^ 21:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Just a quick FYI, he was 6 ft 7 in, cited by multiple sources and included in a biography of Michael Jordan (Link). Zodiiak (talk) 04:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that seems to say 6'6" (which is what the Halbertsam book says). I added a little bit to the article. Others are free to make changes. Zagalejo^^^ 04:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Season-by-season stats table?

Where is the season-by-season stats table for MJ? Every other NBA player has one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.193.167.48 (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

There's a stats table here, presumably spun out for space reasons. Zagalejo^^^ 05:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Another Jersey Number

I think under Jersey Numbers, Jordan's number 12 jersey should be added which he wore for one game when his 23 was stolen.

Koppie 21 (talk) 15:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think it's more of a trivia question, rather than one of his official Jersey. Yes, he wore number 12 against the Magic, but it was never his Jersey. I think it could be added into the article, but to highlight it as an official Jersey, is a bit odd. If others disagree, then feel free to add. Just my opinion. Thanks. Zodiiak (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Jordan did not get 'cut' from his HS varsity team

A story ran in today's Raleigh News and Observer, quoting Jordan's PE teacher, Ruby Sutton, who says Jordan was never cut from the Laney High School varsity basketball team. From the article:

"Back then, [most] 10th-graders played JV; that's just the way it was. Nobody ever 'cut' Michael Jordan," Sutton, who still teaches physical education, said earlier this month, shaking her head as she retold the story for at least the 100th time.

There's also these quotes from the current boy's basketball coach at Laney, Fred Lynch:

Even Lynch -- now the head basketball coach -- has to laugh at the irony of the size of the emblem, considering that when Jordan first arrived at Laney, it was his sub-6-feet stature that kept him off the varsity squad.

"Leroy [Smith] was not a better basketball player than Mike, he just had size," Lynch said. "We didn't have a lot of tall kids, and Leroy was 6-6, 6-7 ... and [head coach] Pop Herring thought we had plenty of guards but needed size.

"The Hollywood version is that Mike got cut, came back the next year, and was great. That's not true. He played on the JV team, was our best JV player, and played on the varsity his final two years and scored more than 1,400 points [including a triple-double his senior season: 29.2 points, 11.6 rebounds, and 10.1 assists.] It was never a situation where Mike was ever a bad player."

Lynch was an assistant coach on Jordan's basketball teams and also coached Jordan in football, according to the article. In my view, the opinions of two of Jordan's mentors would trump Jordan's recollection of the incident in his brief USA Today interview. Thoughts? Jmturner (talk) 18:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't quite understand the distinction they're trying to make. As far as I can tell, Jordan did try out for the varsity team, but didn't make the final roster. Is anyone claiming that Jordan didn't even try out for varsity as a sophomore? Zagalejo^^^ 18:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is another comment on the issue. Jmturner (talk) 18:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

And an excerpt from the David Porter biography of MJ, page 4:

After ninth grade, Jordan and Smith attended varsity basketball coach Clifton "Pop" Herring's basketball camp. Herring invited them to try out for the varsity squad as sophomores in 198, and he liked Jordan's quickness and Smith's size, but the other varsity players were older and stronger. When Herring posted the varsity team names in the gymnasium, Smith made the final cut, but 5-foot 9-inch Jordan did not. Although admitting that the varsity squad was very good, Jordan still insisted he could contribute.

Assistant coach Fred Lynch decided that Jordan should spend his sophomore year on the junior varsity squad. Jordan would see more playing action there.

My argument is that getting cut is completely different from not making the team. This is the distinction his former coach Lynch is making. - Mark Jmturner (talk) 18:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it's just semantics, but I have decided to remove "and was cut from the team" because it's essentially redundant. Zagalejo^^^ 18:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Good solution! Thanks. Jmturner (talk) 02:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)