Talk:Michael Mosley

"The Story of Science"

I think that this is the presenter of the BBC Two series, "The Story of Science" - am I right? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess I must be wrong. The man I was thinking of has a medical degree, and I think he was at one time a GP, and has worked as a science journalist. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I can give visual confirmation that the man in the Youtube videos of The Story of Science self-identifies as the same Michael Mosley who is the subject of this article. But medical degrees are virtually ten-a-penny in the entertainment industry. Graeme Garden has one. Harry Hill has one. The Van Tulleken twins have one each!

Nuttyskin (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Birth date

Mike mentioned his birthday as Mar 22, 1957, when discussing calorie restricted diet in BBC's Make Me Live Forever 93.89.200.51 (talk) 06:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

If he was born in 1957, then he would have been born in Calcutta not "Kolkata", which had not yet been adopted as the international name for the city. Nuttyskin (talk) 19:56, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

His speech

It seems laboured, as though he has a problem, eg Stroke Why? This should be added. 78.151.29.201 (talk) 09:11, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Only if you can find a reliable source,in line with our policy for biographies of living persons. His speech seems fairly normal to me. Qwfp (talk) 09:34, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Note that the above IP editor vandalized the article on Mosley. Eric ^talk 12:03, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

"qualified doctor"

The article says he got his qualification but then never practiced. And that was many years ago. In UK 'Dr' is allowed title while registered to practice. Is "qualified doctor" an accurate summary of what he's known for, and if so should it be specified what his qualification is if not a MBBS ? GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

MM's Wiki page seems to be very pro Mosley even though his dietary books are on the edge of quackery?

His programme on opioid efficacy was so one-sided it probably wouldn't be broadcast under current BBC guidelines. 2A00:23C8:292A:F501:E949:838C:1E70:7C07 (talk) 09:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

His books have not been widely reviewed by medical experts. The only expert review is by Red Pen Reviews who gave it a 58% scientific accuracy. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

This is surely not correct? Even while this apparently allows someone to use the title "Dr.", it's not a "real" doctorate, as that would be a higher degree awarded after a doctorate in Medicine? 94.255.241.134 (talk) 06:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a tricky one. Most UK doctors study for a 5-year undergraduate degree (MBBS – Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery MBChB) and so the title 'dr' is a customary one. Some do go one to gain doctorates. While there is no hard and fast rule, most doctors seem to retain that title when they retire, and perhaps slightly less so if they leave the profession.

Would would be more interesting is if anyone can verify whether he finished his houseman years after graduating. The hint is that he didn't. 92.20.185.89 (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Did he graduate? Bon courage (talk) 12:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

He was. The article says "Upon graduation from medical school...". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Which doesn't appear to be sourced. Bon courage (talk) 12:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, so I have adjusted the claim. Or were you suggesting he did not graduate in PPE from Oxford? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I assumed he did PPE; I was wondering about medical qualifications particularly since the BBC insist on calling him "Doctor". The lede still says he graduated from medical school. Bon courage (talk) 12:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I have adjusted the lede to match. I guess the BBC can call people what they want. The Royal Free Hospital ought to have publicly available graduation records? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

It's very odd! He called himself doctor, and all the various obituaries say that he qualified as a doctor but none directly say he graduated from medical school. Surely at this point in time they are the same thing? Pre-registration house officer was only open to those who had graduated from medical school. The non-degree route was generations ago. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 18:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

That rationale sounds extremely plausible. But we just follow sources? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The BMJ article (ref no 5) makes it clear that he graduated in medicine but decided not to do the pre-registration year that would have enabled him to register with the GMC and go on to a career in medicine. Southdevonian (talk) 18:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Which part "makes it clear" in the BMJ source? I didn't see the word "graduated". Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The part that says he turned down the offer of a job as a house officer. He would only have been offered the job if he had passed his exams. Southdevonian (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

This BBC News article about him says: Mr Mosley studied medicine in London and qualified as a doctor but for the last couple of decades he has been working as a presenter, documentary maker, journalist and author. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

How would he "qualify as a doctor" if he never did his pre-registration year? Also, it might be useful to add the relevant years into the article, if these are available? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I too have been wondering exactly what "qualified" means. Presumably as he did not do the pre-registration year his name never appeared on the medical register (unless the system has changed) and therefore he has never been qualified to actually practise as a doctor. But perhaps qualified just means that someone has passed the exams? Southdevonian (talk) 18:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's a little unclear. Thanks for clarifying. Adding the years might help. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I have added the year he took his finals. I notice The Guardian [1] is referring to him as a "medical school graduate". Southdevonian (talk) 19:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Red Pen Reviews

This review says the book "scored weakly for scientific accuracy" [2]. This is a direct quote, not a misrepresentation. The book scored a 58% scientific accuracy which is low. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

2.98.244.239 seems to be cherry-picking only positive comments from the review whilst ignoring the fact the book scored weakly for scientific accuracy over-all (58%). If a review is to be summarized we must be fair and give a good overview. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Oswald Mosley

Why is he mentioned and linked to in this article? The only reason I can see is that I can see is that Oswald had a son called Michael, but it's obviously a different Michael, unless there's some over relation that hasn't been made clear. 86.19.77.5 (talk) 10:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

They're not related. Mark and inwardly digest (talk) 08:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, total red herring. Different people. I actually knew Oswald's son Michael (a farmer in Millington Cheshire), and was friendly with Michael's two grandsons.

While a very distant relationship is possible, it should have no bearing on this entry., 92.20.185.89 (talk) 10:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected

Hi Daniel Case et al, I've removed pending changes and inserted semi protection here as it seems his death isn't confirmed by most reliable sources yet and we should err on the side of caution. It didn't seem like pending changes was working in such a fast moving situation but if I'm wrong, let me know.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:20, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Why does Wikipedia insist on pretending that he might still be alive? The BBC have just broadcast a long tribute to him, with people who knew him well. 86.181.19.12 (talk) 09:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Because we're an encyclopedia not a news outlet. Nigej (talk) 09:27, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I thought Wikipedia was supposed to "reflect reliable sources"? Perhaps you can find one that says he's still alive? 86.181.19.12 (talk) 09:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

See WP:BDP. "Anyone born within the past 115 years is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death." So we assume he's alive until he's confirmed dead. That's our rule. Nigej (talk) 09:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

So you should lock this article. Most people in the world, who have ever heard of him, now think he's dead. 86.181.19.12 (talk) 09:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I think he's dead too. We don't need to lock the article, we just need for people to follow our rules, otherwise their changes might get reverted. Nigej (talk) 09:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Really, 115? I had no idea there was an age limit for this. So it's ok to report that someone like Maria Branyas is dead? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

There are many biographies where we (ie Wikipedia editors using reliable sources) don't know whether someone is dead or alive). If there's no indication whether someone born over 115 years ago is dead or alive, you're allowed to assume they're dead. That's my reading of the rules. Nigej (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I see, many thanks. So I guess an "indication" would be a report in a RS that they were alive, more than 115 years from their birth date? In the case of Maria Branyas, she "has been the world's oldest verified living person since the death of Lucile Randon (1904–2023) on 17 January 2023." But how long does that "indication" last? I suspect it must last until there is an RS report of her death as, otherwise, there is no basis for assuming she is not still alive? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Since I was pinged at the beginning of this thread ...

A counterexample to this. I wrote, some years ago, the article about Paul Bateson, the radiological tech who has two separate claims to notability, neither of which might be enough on their own: he's the tech who gets Regan all prepared for her angiography in The Exorcist, and a few years later was convicted of the murder of journalist Addison Verrill (the police suspected he might have killed other gay men whose body parts were found floating in plastic bags in the Hudson; I think the connection here is far too attenuated, but it has led to this urban myth that "an actual serial killer was in The Exorcist!").

Anyway ... the last recorded thing Bateson did was finish his parole after being released from prison in the late 2000s. He'd be in his 80s if he were alive today. The article ends with a paragraph on how the Social Security Death Index records someone with the same name and an SS# that matches having been given out in Pennsylvania, where Bateson was born, died in New York in 2012.

But we don't know for sure that it was him, so we just have it as "presumed death". And there are no death-related categories for the article. He is still a "possibly living person" until we get confirmation of his death, or 2055. Daniel Case (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

And he wasn't even older than 115. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

That would be the same BBC that is styling the story as "Body found in search for presenter Michael Mosley". No doubt it will all be confirmed shortly, but until then we don't declare him definitely dead yet.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. When his death is confirmed we need to avoid specifying an exact date. It'll be some time, if ever, before the exact date will be known. Nigej (talk) 09:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Confirmed dead?

From this article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kk9gvw8l0o

Quote: "A police source told BBC News the deceased had been dead "for a number of days"."

I don't want to edit the page because I'm still new to contributing! Is it still considered not reliable enough to make the official edits? Beepboop127 (talk) 09:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Just saw on TV they are waiting for a post-mortem so it's still not officially confirmed Beepboop127 (talk) 09:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

A post mortem had nothing to do with his identity. They may be awaiting formal identification from a family member i.e. his wife. 86.181.19.12 (talk) 09:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The current page states "On 9 June 2024 a body was found in the search for Mosley with local media reporting it as his" There's no reference for this. So isn't this jumping the gun? The body has not yet been identified. Leopardstown (talk) 09:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I used the wring wording when saying post-mortem. I just meant ID for this specific question. Beepboop127 (talk) 11:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and edited the statement on the body being found. And added the BBC reference. If there's not a consensus on this, please revert the edit. Leopardstown (talk) 09:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

It's been confirmed by the mayor. Guardian Laterthanyouthink (talk) 09:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

"body of TV presenter believed to have been found on Greek island, authorities say" - the "believed to be" suggests to me that this still isn't 100% confirmed, but maybe it's nearing the point at which it could be declared.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

At this point, it is with 99.99% full certainty that Mosley is dead, even though post mortem hasn't been completed. It's not like they are searching for a needle in a haystack here, the island is 65km squared in size. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 10:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

A post-mortem is held to establish the cause of death, not the identity of the deceased? If the island's deputy mayor, Nikitas Grillas, is regarded as "an official", then the identity has been officially confirmed. I'm not sure what else is expected to happen. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

A bit of patience please editors, not least out of respect for the family. The death probably will be confirmed and announced shortly, but until then surely we can't put his death on here as a fact.Leopardstown (talk) 10:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Body of TV presenter Michael Mosley found on the Greek Island of Symi, confirms mayor ABC Australia - seems good enough to me. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

https://www.tanea.gr/2024/06/09/greece/symi-eikones-kai-vinteo-apo-simeio-pou-vrethike-nekros-o-parousiastis-tou-bbc-pos-entopistike-i-soros-tou/ he dead

Should disappearance and death be a seperate article?

It’s been a big news story for a few days and will have an oncoming investigation into the circumstances. Would a full article be appropriate to not bloat the main page? AlienChex (talk) 10:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Almost certainly not. It'll probably turn out to be a relatively simple story, and there'll be no need to bloat this article with excessive detail. Nigej (talk) 10:27, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I doubt it, his disappearance seems fairly un-notable, and I can't imagine the investigation will amount to much other than a few sentences describing the route he took / temperature conditions over the few days. Give it a few weeks for the recentism to blow over at least. Saltywalrusprkl (talk) 10:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2024

Article states body has been found but the references used state the deceased has not been formally identified. 86.24.2.125 (talk) 11:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The article states that he's dead. It also has a date of death. However, the body has not yet been formally identified and the death, therefore, not formally confirmed. Leopardstown (talk) 11:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2024 (2)

"Indian born" is irrelevant and seems to have been added for the sake of it. It was never added before. He was British not Indian.

188.28.249.73 (talk) 11:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done I agree, so I have removed it. See e.g. Cliff Richard etc., etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Confirmation of death

The body has not been confirmed his. 82.2.41.189 (talk) 11:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian here says very clearly: "“He has been found in the area of Ayia Marina,” the island’s deputy mayor, Nikitas Grillas, told the Guardian. “I can confirm that it is him.”" Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Fixed.Celjski Grad (talk) 11:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The deputy mayor never met Mosley. How can he identify the body? WWGB (talk)

We have a source that says that the deputy mayor never met Mosley? I'm really not sure that the officials who confirm the identity of dead people have usually ever met the deceased? They just go by the evidence and possibly by family identification, if that's available. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC) p.s. do we now have to wait for an aircraft, privately chartered by Wikipedia, to fly Jimmy Wales over there personally, to make it "official"? I would have thought that local Greek officials have jurisdiction in such matters.

And we don't know of any "family identification" as yet. Nor can I find any RS that states unequivocally that Mosley is dead. WWGB (talk) 11:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Why should that detail have to be made public and reported, if Nikitas Grillas deems that not necessary? Possibly in view of his wife Clare Bailey's wishes? You don't regard The Guardian as a WP:RS? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian is a RS, but it only says "the body of a man believed to be the missing British TV presenter". WWGB (talk) 12:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

We can just regard that very unequivocal statement by Nikitas Grillas, reported verbatim, as idle gossip? I'm not sure what The Guardian is expecting to be more official. Even adding the qualified view of The Guardian, together with quotes from the local police and the Mayor, would be better than suggesting he is still alive? The problem seems to be that Wikipedia policy dictates it's "all or nothing" here, until some unknown point in the future, so that the article maintains internal integrity. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree. I've posted an Australian RS above too. It seems rather precious to hang back on this one. It's obviously him. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

At 13:22 BST BBC News reported that the mayor of Symi said:

"I can’t officially tell it was Mosley, it’s not my job to do that,"

"I can only say that the body in Agia Marina beach had an umbrella, a hat and a watch identical to the ones Mosley had when last seen."

"The body is now being transferred to Rhodes where they will officially identify it".

So until we hear from Rhodes shouldn't we say that there has been no official confirmation yet? -- DeFacto (talk). 13:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that would be very sensible. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Death has now been confirmed by his wife. Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Saw an update that his wife has spoken about it an hour ago, opening with "It's devastating to have lost Michael".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/michael-mosley-missing-doctor-greece-search-symi-latest-b2559289.html Beepboop127 (talk) 13:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Trim "Death" section radically

I proposed, and implemented (WP:BRD), that the "Disappearance and death" section be totally trimmed, to the brief version below, fitting for an encyclopaedia rather than a current news source. My edit was reverted. I still think that a very brief version, without detail is better. I make this comment in case others agree; I am not going to edit further.

Death (section head)

On 5 June 2024, while on holiday with his family on the Greek island of Symi, Mosley died while on a long walk alone back to his hotel from a beach in 40 °C (104 °F) heat [added later: the single reference I give doesn't support 40C, another needed], collapsing after apparently having lost his way.

Pol098 (talk) 16:20, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

That might be reasonable if there had not been over four days of disappearance, with mounting speculation and news coverage. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. For one thing do we know that he died on the 5th? And surely the details of the 4 day search need mentioning, as does the media coverage. Nigej (talk) 19:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Please use nicer profile photo

Please update to nicer natural photo. He deserves a great photo of an incredible Dr and world changing figure. 220.235.34.104 (talk) 16:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The only other image currently available is this one, which might be better? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

That photo is likely to be deleted. Basically the video it was taken from on YouTube had a "Creative Commons Attribution licence (reuse allowed)" license tag when I uploaded it but then the owners of the video removed this license and I never took a webarchive of the video so there is no proof the license was on there. It's frustrating. I have noticed this is a common problem with YouTube videos. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. So we're stuck with the existing one, unless we could use another, not freely licenced, under "fair use"? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, per WP:NFCC, the existence of this freely licenced image means we are now bared from using a "fair use" image. Your only way to change this is to find another, better free image. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 06:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I've found a better CC image from a YouTube promo for his 2024 SBS series ([3]), which was released under a CC licence on YouTube by a SBS channel, and have uploaded it here. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:45, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for finding this, it's about as up to date as it could be. It would be nice to have a few more, maybe the Porton Down one can be included elsewhere in the article. Plutonto (talk) 09:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That is a great improvement. Thanks for finding and uploading. Few bio articles have a lead image as good as this. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for being a potential party pooper, but are we absolutely sure that any still of a video released under a free license is still free? I was thinking about the logic of this, you could potentially make a video of any series of copyrighted stills, with the camera still, so produce a near perfect copy of said copyrighted work, but surely then if I released that video under a free license, if you made a screenshot of that video, when it was focused on a copyrighted work (or if that work was graphically displayed), it would surely not then make that image free? I assume this was a still made for the SBS series, but it may be copyrighted in itself. Plutonto (talk) 17:50, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I really do not know. Nor even sure where best to ask. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I am worried it is not. I think the free license probably only applies to sharing the video as a whole...possibly stretches to making a screenshot of a moving image when there is no clear display of a copyrighted image i.e. that covers all or most the screen graphically displayed or focused straight on. I have found some images that I think I might be able to get changed to a free license, maybe I will talk on your page if you want to assist. Plutonto (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

If you want to check WP:CQ or C:COM:VPC would be the places to go. As far as licence only applying to parts of a video, the only question that matters is does SBS have the rights to release that image, if they do then they have released it by applying a CC licence to the video. If you add a CC licence to work that you own the rights to, every single part of it is licenced (we don't except Non-derivative licences). Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 18:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the important difference here is that the copyright holder has released it under a free licence. He's in pyjamas which means that we can be quite sure this was specifically taken for Australia’s Sleep Revolution with Dr Michael Mosley by SBS and then released by SBS on an official SBS YouTube channel. In your hypothetical the important thing would be whether you had the right to release the copyrighted content under said licence. If you did you can, if you don't you can't. I'm 99% sure that SBS will have the right to release this.

I'm reminded of File:Luke Skywalker - Welcome Banner (Cropped).jpg, which despite having a still from a very copyrighted movie, can be used because an "Official Star Wars Flickr stream" being an official feed had the right to release it under the given licence (DR). Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 18:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the example. I might google to see if I can find anything on the legalities of it all. Plutonto (talk) 18:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

One difficulty I can see is SBS say they may obtain the rights to show programmes, but do not always own the copyright [https://www.sbs.com.au/aboutus/work-with-sbs/license-and-access-sbs-content/

This is the media page for Michael's sleep programme [4], it has a link to 'Screener and Images', but it requires a journalist's account so I can't see any potential info about licensing that might be on there. Plutonto (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I believe Screener and images would be a press pack that SBS has that allows jornos to watch it early and find promo images to use in their pieces, not another company. However that article say that it's An Artemis Media production for SBS, so that might be a concern. I'm not 100% on the rights in that case, but I'm still pretty sure that promo content shot for SBS for use in promoting the show will be owned by SBS. As I say it might be an idea to ask at WP:CQ or C:COM:VPC, or start a COM:DR on commons. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 18:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, perhaps 'for SBS' means that SBS are the sole copyright owner? I am beginning to think it may be OK. This is the Artemis Media page for the series, they have made a nice note in memory of Michael there [5], I might just email them or SBS if I can find a contact and see what they say. Plutonto (talk) 21:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Just echoing the sentiments made here.

Would it be feasible to use a nicer photo?

The current photo arguably isn’t representative of the subject as it was taken from an Australian documentary about sleep - and Dr Mosley appears to be feigning dissatisfaction about sleep deprivation. 84.247.43.118 (talk) 12:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The sentiments above are about the Porton Down photo, which was the photo that the SBS one replaced. I'll repeat what I said above that if you have a better freely licenced photograph then you should present it, otherwise there isn't much to talk about. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 13:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't agree about "arguably isn't representative of the subject". Yes, he appears to be wearing pyjamas, but I'd say he would be instantly recognisable. The photo would be good enough to be used in his passport. And I have no idea how one could tell he was "feigning dissatisfaction about sleep deprivation." Even if he was, so what? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:59, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, I know what they mean, I think he is intentionally looking grumpy to highlight the effects of lack of sleep, as that was what the programme was about, and he stated he had suffered from insomnia for years. It would be nice to get one of him smiling, which I am trying to do. Plutonto (talk) 18:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm really not sure a reader would infer from this image that Mosely was habitually grumpy. Furthermore, insomnia was certainly a condition with which he was personally associated. Yes, a smiling image, if as clear as this one, might be better. (You're not allowed to smile on your UK passport photo!) Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh no, I didn't mean that of course, I simply meant he was 'posing' as grumpy for the publicity picture. I am trying with the other pictures, but it is difficult! Plutonto (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Your efforts are much appreciated. But I doubt you'll find one as good as this. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Units

Use the metric system in priority (like educated people) and imperial measures in parenthesis if you really must (not the other way round). Also: you keep repeating it was above 40°C with no freaking proof. Sort this article! 2A01:CB06:554:EA00:E052:6696:F2BD:F453 (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

In articles with a UK subject, imperial measures are usually given first. What did Mosley use in his published material? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Re 40°C: the figure came from newspaper reports, as far as I remember from sources considered reliable. I don't know if the references supporting this remain; if not they can be found. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 19:38, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see. We are actually discussing the claim that "Temperatures had reached 40 °C (104 °F)." I would suggest that the exact temperature reached is wholly irrelevant. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Fahrenheit has not been official in the UK since the 1970s. On what ground should it be place first and above Celsius for UK topics? 92.20.185.89 (talk) 21:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree, Fahrenheit is no longer generally used in the UK. Apologies, I had thought the OP question was related to units used in Mosley's own work. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

MOS:UNIT instructs that "In non-scientific articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, the primary units for most quantities are metric or other internationally used units," followed by a list of exceptions that does not include temperature. This would suggest Celsius over Fahrenheit. Celjski Grad (talk) 10:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Over 40ºC is correctly sourced in the article with https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kk9gvw8l0o Celjski Grad (talk) 10:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

That source just says ".. an extensive search for Dr Mosley amid high temperatures"? But that figure seems to be unsourced in the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I pasted the wrong URL. The correct one is https://www.theguardian.com/media/article/2024/jun/09/body-of-man-believed-to-be-tv-doctor-michael-mosley-found-on-greek-island-authorities-say, sourced in the Death section. "Extreme weather warnings have been in place this week on Symi, where temperatures have reached above 40C (104F) in the afternoon." Celjski Grad (talk) 11:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I removed it as it refers to week not specific day and people know it is hot in Greece anyway. Welcome to put it back if you want to. Southdevonian (talk) 11:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The BBC video clip includes the claim of 40°C temperatures at 1:22 - "On Wednesday it was a particularly hot day - forty, forty-two degrees or so". Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The Independent here says "At the time of Dr Mosley’s death, temperatures had reached highs of 37 degrees while there was little shade on the rocky hillside where he lost his way." So there seems to some variation in new reports. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

A Less Obscured Lead Image.

I was wondering what you guys think about the lead image being changed. The current one has his face obscured so much, you can barely see what he looks like.

Between the face shield itself, the reflection on the face shield, and his head cover, you can only make out very few distinguishing facial features. His face is largely obscured, and his hair isn't visible at all. Among other things.

I do think it's an interesting picture of him. Being in Porton Down and all. But with the face mask, perhaps it is more suited for a gallery image. Perhaps of some career highlights. But that's another matter.

In any case, I think the lead image for any person should be as clear as possible and not obscured if possible.

The point of the lead image is so you can see their face and what they look like. Having their face mostly obscured seems to defeat this purpose.

changed.

VoidHalo (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

If you can find a better lead image which is licenced under a free licence, then I don't think anybody would object. However, the problem is always finding such a freely licenced image. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 23:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree, if there isn't another image that meets WP:Image policy, then we have to use this one. Wikipedia doesn't allow scraping images off of the Internet to be used in articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

See "Please use nicer profile photo" above. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Latest CCTV

They have now found CCTV of him falling down: Standard. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 13:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The word "journalist"

Is every person ever got put on daytime tv a "journalist" now? Is dr Phil a journalist? Is Maury a journalist? is Oprah a journalist? Does the word journalist have ANY meaning or does wiki apply it to anybody who is famous but lacking qualifications 199.119.235.203 (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

That's how WP:RS sources describe him? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

He described himself at his website [6] as "Journalist, producer and TV presenter". That seems perfectly fair. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

You're suggesting that someone who was named as the Medical Journalist of the Year, by the British Medical Association in 1995, is not really a journalist? Because he "got put on daytime tv"? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Does anybody have ea source for him graduating or passing his exams, when he studied medicine.

Is he a doctor or not because everything I can find suggests he never was. 199.119.235.203 (talk) 14:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The article does not claim that he was ever a doctor. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The article currently places him in Category:21st-century British medical doctors. Celjski Grad (talk) 15:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

We discussed this in the "qualified doctor" thread (quite a way down - just search the page for "graduated"). In the BMJ article in the refs he describes how he had difficulty making up his mind between the offers of a job as a house officer (that is, the pre-registration year as a hospital doctor after passing final examinations) and a job at the BBC. So he is a doctor in the sense of having graduated in medicine (otherwise he would not have been offered the house officer job) but I imagine (since it is called a pre-registration year) he never got to go on the Medical Register and so could not actually practise as a doctor. But he was quite entitled to use "Dr". Southdevonian (talk) 16:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If the article doesn't describe him as a doctor (as he also didn't himself), I'm not sure that the Category:21st-century British medical doctors is justified. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Haileybury and Imperial Service College

Haileybury claims Mosley as an alumnus here. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I added the Haileybury Connect's Post which clearly described Michael as an 'Old Haileyburian'[7]. Plutonto (talk) 15:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Just adding that it was where his maternal grandfather the Rev. Arthur Dudley Stewart and his two elder brothers were also educated. Their parents and two younger siblings were killed in the Kucheng massacre. Plutonto (talk) 15:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

A good secondary source, thanks. Do we know the years he attended? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It says Allenby, which is the house, and 1974 on the link, Michael would have been about 17 then, so when he left? Plutonto (talk) 16:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing he went to a junior boarding school from age 7 to 11 and then went to Haileybury from 11 to 18. But any combination is possible. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It looks like that link was edited, as the Google result says 1975, which is what several other sources say [8], [9]. If they bothered to edit it, it seems like it might be more likely correct, and not what you might guess. I think in British public schools, for those coming from prep schools, they usually go up aged 13, rather than 11 as is usual in the state school system. It's possible, if he was doing very well academically from an early age, he may have been put up a year and taken his A-Levels a year early. Plutonto (talk) 17:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It's unclear if the junior boarding school was a prep school. But yes, the age is 13 there. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Final moments

This Express source says "A coroner said that Dr Mosley sat down on the slope before losing consciousness. There was no evidence to suggest he had hit his head or that he collapsed." Should this be added, or is it just "tabloid chatter"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Sources appear to be contradictory at the moment – the Evening Standard, citing Proto Thema, says "A report by a Greek coroner shows the 67-year-old may have rested his hand on the terrace before collapsing"; Sky News says "CCTV footage appears to show him falling over close to where his body was found"; The Express says "CCTV footage has also shown Dr Mosley [...] dropping at the spot where his body was found. A coroner said that Dr Mosley sat down on the slope before losing consciousness. There was no evidence to suggest he [...] collapsed." Alongside WP:DAILYEXPRESS, I think we're best omitting anything until there's an authoritative report. MIDI (talk) 10:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I guess the CCTV footage might be ambiguous, but this has not officially been made public. Although the BBC says it has seen it. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Would LBC be an acceptable source [10] to reinstate this text [11]? Plutonto (talk) 18:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Death: Dehydration?

• https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-symi-map-michael-mosley-death-b2561034.html
• https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/michael-mosley-s-death-reminded-me-of-what-an-er-doctor-once-told-me-20240613-p5jlk5.html
• https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/michael-mosley-s-death-reminded-me-of-what-an-er-doctor-once-told-me-20240613-p5jlk5.html
• https://www.google.com/search?q=Pedi+Symi+humidity+june+5+2024
• https://www.google.com/search?q=Pedi+Symi+weather+june+5+2024
• https://uk.news.yahoo.com/michael-mosley-doctor-pushed-body-133510420.html

2601:646:201:57F0:31E2:2BF2:F056:56E7 (talk) 20:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

• https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1910071/michael-mosley-death-expert-analysis
• https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/10/europe/michael-mosley-died-unwell-greek-police-intl-scli-gbr

2601:646:201:57F0:31E2:2BF2:F056:56E7 (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 3 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 18:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

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Michael Mosley (broadcaster) → Michael Mosley – I believe this is the primary topic compared to the others listed on the current disambiguation page. This article has the most coverage in terms of references in comparison to the others listed, by a considerable margin. Michael Mosley (actor) has far fewer sources, so can remain under its current title. Mike Mosley (American football) has no references, and Mike Mosley mostly includes primary sources in its references. I'd suggest avoiding web traffic statistics in this discussion due to the media coverage he recently received. Svampesky (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. The Night Watch (talk) 18:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• You may have a valid point. YTKJ (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.