Talk:Michael Witzel/Archive 1

Archive 1

Footnote format

Would anybody object to formatting the footnotes in this article to follow the style guidelines at WP:CITE? This would not involve changing any of the links, deleting or combining notes, or anything underhanded. I have in mind only formatting each note so that readers can see a short description of what the external link is: a title taken from the webpage, preferably. Katherine Tredwell 18:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

A tedious, terrible task. Go ahead. I have been looking at it and postponing it for months. Hornplease 21:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with worse. The process has started. I took the liberty of separating something that looks like text from notes, and of converting an embedded external link to a footnote. Katherine Tredwell 04:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I also took the extra step of updating the links to Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies articles because the journal has moved. I hope I have linked to the correct articles. It looks like many of the footnotes are external links to the same articles, which means the notes section can be simplified. Katherine Tredwell 05:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Sandhya Jain material

Re:

"Sandhya Jain of the Daily Pioneer notes that Prof. Witzel worked with Christian Evangelical groups who were supproting Witzel against the Hindu groups edits shows his anti-Hindu bias.[7]

First, that is an opinion piece, not a news report. That something shows Witzel's motivations is an opinionated guess, not a fact. Supposing this is the same Sandhya Jain, "political ideologue" is an apt description. You may agree with what you read there, but it is hardly a font of disinterested observation.
Even as pure opinion, this "note" is a particularly cheap shot - no one believes Witzel to be a Christian evangelical himself - would Jain really believe they are united in hatred of Hindus? Something which squarely addresses the issues at hand, even in a biased way, would be far more informative. Finally, it's ungrammatical. Someone could clean that up. The other problems are rather more inherent.Proabivouac 19:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

This isnt about guilt by association .It's about actively campaigning against Hindus with those organizations therefore the criticism is valid.

<comment removed>

The above comment keeps on getting removed on various grounds: that it's a violation of BLP, that it's "vulgar", that it's off-topic. I agree that it's not very kindly worded, but it is a comment on the reliability of a source that editors have tried to use for this article, so it's not off-topic. As for the alleged BLP violation, I simply don't see it; what I see is an editor's very negative opinion of a journalist. This comment would be entirely inappropriate in an article, but as this is a talk page comment, with a signature clearly indicating that the comment is the opinion of an individual editor, I don't see the problem. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk pages are not free speech zones for inflammatory ad-hominem commentary. FCYTravis 04:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

FCY, please unprotect the page, I'm not going to revert your removal, and non-admins need to be able to comment here. In my view, terms like "maladroit hack" are not "inflammatory ad hominem commentary". We need to be able to have a frank discussion of sources if we're going to build a decent article. And if a journalist is a political hack, we need to be able to say that. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you even know who Jain is? Or is "Bakaman says one thing, I'll go with the opposite" the defining philosophy here? Bakaman 05:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Other than what's been said here, I don't know anything about Jain. My concern here is that I think a talk page post is being deleted without good cause. On a talk page, where comments are flagged are the opinion of a single editor, characterizations such as the comment that was deleted are not BLP violations, and by the standards that seem to prevail around here, they're not uncivil comments either. To be clear, if you called a writer that I personally admire a "maladroit hack" or a "political ideologue", I wouldn't delete those comments. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously you didnt read the page, look at the history, or do anything. If you did you may have noted that the defender of BLP deleted huge chunks of talk page text "under WP:BLP". Of course "he deserves praise" doesn't he? Quit the bs, no one is going to believe you are a concerned editor with no axe to grind.Bakaman 05:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, what? When I said he deserved praise, that was for his actions on articles; as I think I've made clear, I'm not a big fan of deleting talk page posts, but I do think that racial insults by banned users should be removed. Now, why I should have an intimate knowledge of edits from 2006, when I never read this article before August 2007, I'm not sure. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

From WP:TPG: "No insults: Don't make ad hominem attacks, such as calling someone an idiot or a fascist." Are you seriously telling me you can't have a discussion of sources without gratuitously insulting their writing skills? Please. Talk pages are for discussion of Wikipedia articles, not to provide a platform for taking unsupported ad-hominem cheap shots at people. FCYTravis 04:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

To further demonstrate the point, the above post from Proabivouac remains, even though it is quite critical of Ms. Jain. Why? Because it's written in a civil tone conducive to further discussion and does not feature gratuitous insults and cheap shot attacks. We are better than that. FCYTravis 05:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I dunno, I think the supposedly uncivil comment has sparked more discussion than the civil one. Whether that's improved the article, though... --Akhilleus (talk) 05:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I made the deletions Bakasuprman refers to barely a few weeks after BLP first came out, I think. I was still feeling my way around; On reflection, I think they were perhaps borderline. Certainly, having references to racl supremcsts, and "Herr W." did seem to me to be making a certain absurd and hateful comparison. Also "Great White ARyan north". On reflection, I could perhaps have left "bible thumper" and "acts like a fool". Also "demonizer of Hindus" and whatnot. Really, on the whole, the talkpage has not suffered without those examples of Bakasuprman's deathless prose. I was partly thinking of the fact that it is certain that Witzel reads this page, so it did seem simple politeness, as nobody was making a coherent, relevant argument in the portions I excised, merely pointlessly venting anger against the academic in question. The recently excised text, I notice, calls a certain journalist a tlntlss prtisn hack, or something. The biggest qualitative difference is that (a) it is part of a specific argument about sources, so it has a point. There are also quantitative differences (a single reference, as opposed to paragraphs of bile going nowhere); not to mention the probably unimportant difference to you that it is extremely unlikely that SJ will ever read this page, but certain that MW will. In any case, for all I know, someone has an RS reference for "prtisn hack". Having just spent some time reading a few things published under this individual's byline, I suspect that that is not beyond the realms of possibility. Hornplease 05:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: I will blank portions of the above after I have judged everyone has had a chance to read it. Or feel free to do it yourselves. Hornplease 05:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Jain material, again

All this is very offtopic. Sandhya Jain's column is considered wp:rs as per [8] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkm5848 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If you had bothered to read the discussion you linked to, it would have been clear that Sadhya Jain's columns are WP:RS for her opinions, not for facts. Citing her for facts is liable to get you laughed at. rudra 21:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see this discussion; whether or not Jain's column is a reliable source (several editors don't seem to think so, I don't have an opinion), the sentence you put back in does not characterize her work as an opinion piece, and states that Witzel has an anti-Hindu bias as if it were an objective fact. That's definitely against BLP. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The line said according to Sandhya Jain... Kkm5848 16:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It should be fairly obvious that a number of editors don't find that sufficient. If you want this material in the article, you might try rephrasing to make it clear that this is Jain's point of view, and not necessarily anyone else's. For my part, I don't think we need the material at all, so I'm removing it. And please note that as currently phrased I think the material violates BLP. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Kkm did so and it was unceremoniously removed. There is no reason for patent doublethink to dictate the actions of certain editors. Jain is a respected columnist (no matter what rudra reads in the local ISO rag) being published in a mainstream paper. Her opinions stand.Bakaman 02:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the civil note there, it's always nice to be accused of acting like a character from 1984. As already noted, the bit people are trying to put into the article sounds like it's saying, in Wikipedia's voice, that Witzel is anti-Hindu. Now, I know that some editors here do in fact believe that Witzel is anti-Hindu, but I think they would agree that the NPOV policy (not to mention BLP) requires that that opinion be flagged and qualified as a particular source's point of view. If you're interested in building an NPOV article, you might try rephrasing the quote you're trying to put in to better reflect that it's Jain's opinion. (I'm not interested in rephrasing the material because I don't think it belongs at all.) --Akhilleus (talk) 03:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why you feel that anything that anybody states that is unkind to Witzel should be removed on teh grounds of WP:BLP or for another reason. The line clearly states that she considers this to be true. Considering that she works as a columnist for a major news paper which is known for its editorial oversite -- makes this material that is allowable on WP--Regardless of what your opinion is of her! If you believe the line should be rewritten, you are free to do so! Furthermore, please do point to the specific policy you are referring toKkm5848 04:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You don't seem to be understanding the comments above. There are two issues here: a number of editors think that Jain is a poor source, and should not be used. The second issue, which is the reason that I've been reverting, and the issue I've noted in each of my comments above, is that the wording you're inserting makes it sound as if Wiztel's "anti-Hindu bias" is an objective fact. The sentence you (and Bakasuprman) are trying to put in reads: "Sandhya Jain of the Daily Pioneer notes that Prof. Witzel worked with Christian Evangelical groups who were supporting Witzel against the Hindu groups edits shows his anti-Hindu bias." The verb "notes" implies that Jain is recording a fact--in this case, the "fact" of Witzel's "anti-Hindu bias." To state as a fact that Witzel is biased against Hindus is an obvious BLP violation, and your insistence on including the sentence in this form doesn't speak well of your intentions towards Witzel or your commitment to building a neutral article. (The sentence is also poorly written and unclear.)

If you're actually interested in something other than mindless edit-warring, you need to do two things. First, you need to rephrase the sentence so that it's absolutely clear that Witzel's "anti-Hindu bias" is not a fact, but the opinion of a particular source. The train of thought here seems to be that Jain believes that Witzel's (alleged) collaboration with evangelical Christians indicates that he is biased against Hindus.

Second, (and more difficult), you need to establish a consensus that this sentence belongs. Several editors have already indicated that Jain is a poor source for this article, so I'd say at present there isn't a consensus that her work should be used here. The allegation that this sentence tries to make certainly seems open to question--did Witzel actually work with evangelical groups? If he did, why exactly would this indicate an anti-Hindu bias?

By the way, Kkm, in this edit [9] you removed a sentence on the grounds that its citation was incomplete. The citation is to an interview that appeared on the web, so that's about as complete a citation as you'll get. Please don't remove it again without discussion--because it looks as if you're removing a positive characterization of Witzel and replacing it with negative information. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I will make the chagne to the Sandhya jain statement. The Rediff.com interview needs a link to the interview, not to rediff.com otherwise it is not a reference! Kkm5848 23:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Undid my change since SJ is not alone in this statement. His anti-hindu stance is also mentioned in the oakland tribune. [[10]]. If you have issues with this, please discuss here prior to starting a revert war. Kkm5848 00:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, gee. One person quoted in the Oakland Tribune thinks that Witzel has an anti-Hindu bias. Who's the person quoted? Gautam Desai, the president of the Bay Area chapter of the Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh. Since Desai and Witzel were on opposite sides of a political controversy, we cannot give Desai's opinion the status of an objective characterization.

I have no idea what problem you're having with the link to the rediff.com interview. The link's working for me.

As far as "edit warring", it's pretty simple; stop trying to put BLP violations in the article and there will be no edit war. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There should be no edit warring for any reason, I thought admins were supposed to uphold policy. Sadly, I was mistaken here. It is not a BLP violation by any means and we can hardly consider what rudra reads in the Islamic Sevak Sangh newspapers. There is no consensus that this is remotely close to a BLP violation, especially since Jain is a mainstream columnist who has written extensively on political issues (this is hardly a scholarly issue at hand, it is completely political).Bakaman 01:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's a political issue, and you and Kkm5848 apparently want to take a politicized opinion and portray it as fact. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, you are resorting to original research. Both articles are in WP:RS sources with editorial oversight. If you have problems, find other WP:RS sources that detract from their statement and we can also put that in the article. Kkm5848 18:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, you really don't seem to be understanding the comments above. It's apparent, not just in your attempts to restore the bit of text we've been discussing, but in much of your editing on this article, that you believe Witzel is biased against Hindus. You're free to hold whatever opinion you wish, but the article cannot state as fact that Witzel has an anti-Hindu bias. It should not even include this opinion without the strongest of sourcing, and a number of editors have already indicated that they do not consider Jain a strong source. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

A number of editors have also indicated that they consider SJ a source. Furthermore, she is supported by the article in the oakland tribune, which you also removed. The last time I checked, the Oakland Tribune is a WP:RS source w/ an editorial board == all that is required of sources. Please quote the sections of BLP policy you feel are violated over the next two days, or I will reinsert the reverted sections. Kkm5848 20:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the comments above; I've explained in detail why this is a BLP violation, and I'm quite tired of repeating myself. As for the Oakland Tribune, I've commented about that as well; the fact that one person is quoted in that article as saying that Witzel is biased doesn't establish it as a fact. Your points about whether these sources are reliable sources is simply irrelevant; it's how this material is being characterized within the article, and whether it belongs in the article at all, that's at issue. On the most charitable interpretation, I'd say there's no consensus on these points, and when we're dealing with a BLP, and there is no consensus on whether negative information should be included in the article, it should not be included. If you put the material back in without substantive dicussion (and I don't consider your recent comments to be substantive, since you never directly address the concerns that I've raised), I will consider your editing disruptive. As I'm sure you're aware, policy indicates that disruptive editing on BLPs may result in a block. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

a quote from WP:BLP

Reading into your comments, I would say you are conducting original research into an article published by a reputable source with editorial oversight to disqualify it from the article instead of using reliable sources. Is this your interpretation of WP policy on BLP?!? From this definition, anything that portrays Witzel in a negative portrayal would be considered a violation of BLP which is clearly not the intent of the policy!

From WP:BLP policy discussion page:

The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

The SJ & Oakland Tribune article meet all the criteria mentioned in this policy statement. Kkm5848 06:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Jain is a partisan in the dispute, writing in a marginal and partisan publication, restating CAPEEM allegations as facts. Desai is a partisan as well, he may well speak for the Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh, but he is not a spokesperson for unspecified "other members of the Hindu community". the "worked with", again is a CAPEEM allegation, not a reliably sourced fact, the description of the Dalit Freedom Network to buttress an argument is non-neutral. Doldrums 06:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Desai is quoted in the oakland tribune, a newspaper with editorial oversight. Are you accusing the Oakland tribune as being a partisan newspaper? Jain is also a writer in a major newspaper--are you accusing the the Pioneer of also being partisan? I have not quoted the Organizer, or the many other news sources who feel similarly because they are partisan news-sources!

• So you are saying that the fact that this is mentioned in a major newspaper is not a reliably sourced fact while quoting witzel makes a fact properly sourced?!?
• You do not seem to know your newspapers very well. The pioneer, what you call a "Marginal and partisan publication" is a middle-sized english medium newspaper according to WP. It also meets WP guidelines as a reliable source!Kkm5848 23:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

---

Well, let's see.

• The views of Jain are not "relevant to the subject's notability". Witzel is notable because of his academic work and position at Harvard; this political stuff is not a major part of his career.
• The material you're trying to insert "appears to side with the critics" by portraying Witzel's so-called bias as a fact.
• The material "represents the views of a tiny minority"; in all this edit warring, you've come up with exactly two sources that support your view. If this were truly a majority opinion, you'd be able to find more sources.
• The material makes a claim "that rel[ies] on guilt by association"--I can see no other reason for including the sentence "Among the Christian organizations he worked with was the Dalit Freedom Network whose president, Joseph D'Souza also heads the All-India Christian Council."
• The material is "biased and malicious"--I don't think this point needs much explication. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• Alright, if Witzel is notable for his academic work and position at Harvard, lets remove all material not related to that including the section regarding his role in the California debate. The fact is that he is a prominent personality who has involved himself outside of his primary role as an academic at Harvard, and if we are to discuss those roles, all sides involved should be represented to present a fair view. To censor a view you don't like seems quite unbecoming for an admin on wp.

• It doesn't represent the views of a tiny minority. I am not posting sources that you would consider "Partisan" which concur with these two, un-bias sources (That being the "Pioneer" and the "Oakland Tribune").
• How is this guilt by association? It is a stated fact that he worked with these people, and was stated in the sources mentioned as well. Kkm5848 23:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

  The "Pioneer" source is a column - an opinion piece - not a news article. That isn't necessarily a horribly bad thing, but "Sandhya Jain of the Daily Pioneer notes that" means "this is an established fact and it is observed by Sandhya Jain". That's not permissible unless it is an established fact. That sentence could be rewritten more neutrally:

  "Sandhya Jain of the Daily Pioneer says that Witzel has a Hindu bias, citing his work with Christian Evangelical groups"

  I don't really have a position on whether such a modified sentence is appropriate for the article or not - I don't know anything whatsoever about the subject - I'm only pointing out that the statement in dispute is clearly inappropriate. --B 00:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I dont mind utilizing the statement given by "B", it is more or less representative of the text.Bakaman 03:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

B's rewrite would at least address the problem of siding with the critics. Nevertheless, the other problems remain, and Kkm's reply doesn't really address them. Kkm, are you sure you understand the difference between an opinion piece and a news report? Because Jain is a columnist, and it's readily apparent simply from reading her column that she's not impartial. And really, we don't expect a columnist to be impartial; the reason you have a column is to express your views. As for the Oakland Tribune, you really seem to be misunderstanding something very basic about newspaper articles; when someone is quoted, it means that they say something; it does not mean that the paper endorses the quote.

In any case, the article has now been protected, so no one's going to edit it until this problem is solved. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I am fine with the re-written statement by B. It is representative of what has been said. I know that Sandhya Jain is writing a column and that the article in the Oakland Tribune is quoting someone. That being said, both newspapers have editorial oversite -- and stand by the articles they publish. If you feel so strongly that everything quoted should be neutral, you would have to remove every statement by Witzel as well -- since he is obviously biased about himself as well. --Doing this doesn't seem to make sense to me. All points of view should be represented, instead of removing all points of view. Kkm5848 08:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering that there has been no additional response in over a week, I am going to consider this dispute resolved. Kkm5848 01:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If you've decided not to include the Jain material, then yes, the dispute is resolved. However, if you want to include the Jain material, you're still going to have to demonstrate why this statement is relevant to Witzel's notability, and show that the material represents more than the views of a tiny minority. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that quoting two news articles that are npov are sufficient. You you would like references from sources who you would consider to be bias and that show that more than a tiny minority feel as such, I can provide that as well. As I said above, I agreed to posting the revised version of the mention. You have not responded to my questions above either!Kkm5848 16:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This is very tedious, because I keep on having to repeat basic points that have been made many times. Such as: the Jain piece is not a "news article". It's not npov. It's an editorial, and one with a very clear point of view, that involves stating that the subject of our article is biased against Hindus. Second, the Oakland Tribune piece is a news article, but it doesn't report as a fact the supposed "anti-Hindu bias" of our subject. It quotes Gautam Desai (who's involved in the California textbook debate) as saying that Witzel belongs to an "anti-Hindu group". You apparently think that by printing this quote, the Oakland Tribune's editorial board has endorsed the conclusion that Witzel is anti-Hindu; but this is obviously not the case.

As I've already said, all you've done is show that two people (Jain and Desai) think that Witzel is anti-Hindu. Two people is a tiny minority. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Editors may wish to consider this essay (written by an ArbComm member) as well as this post, which expands on the subject.[11] Both seem to me to be highly relevant here, and suggest to me that even the shorter version should not be included. Slp1 18:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Additional sources

Here is another reference

• http://hamilton.indymedia.org/newswire/display/144/index.php
• http://www.lokvani.com/lokvani/article.php?article_id=3050
• http://www.safarmer.com/pioneer.html
• http://haindavakeralam.org/PageModule.aspx?PageID=387&SKIN=C
• http://www.letindiadevelop.org/irochtc/06_india_west_2006-02-10.htm Kkm5848 21:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

You're going to have to explain why you think these references are relevant. However, the only one of these sources that comes from a major publication is [12], which is a copy of an article from the Pioneer--but note that at the top of that page, it says that the article is clearly defamatory. I suppose that illustrates that another writer from the Pioneer is biased against Witzel, but I don't see why that should concern us. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, but look at who is saying that it is defamatory (Steve Farmer, an associate of Witzel and thus obviously bias himself). I only used it because it was convenient copy of the actual article w/ citation. Perhaps, you would prefer this [13]. The others are all publications with credibility. Now, I suppose you will have to define what you mean by major publications. Suffice it to say, that this view point is not a viewpoint of a "tiny minority". These sources are relevent because they independently state similar things as Sandhya Jain. Kkm5848 23:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The word is "biased", not "bias". Yes, Farmer is an "associate" of Witzel, but are you going to tell me that this is a neutral piece of journalism? This is another opinion piece (to characterize it charitably),

hamilton.indymedia.com doesn't qualify as a reliable source--anyone can publish stories there, with no editorial control. I wouldn't say that gives it any credibility. lokvani.com looks like a community newsletter, hardly the kind of source we want to rely on for the kind of claim you're trying to make. haindavakeralam.org and letindiadevelop.org are both political sites, not journalism or scholarship.

You still haven't indicated how these sources support whatever text you want put in the article. Most of the articles don't have anything that's obviously relevant. And of course, none of this demonstrates that your negative opinion of Witzel is widely shared or significant enough to be included in Wikipedia. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"Stop this anti-Hindu tirade", Hindustan Times, Dec 9, 2005

The point is that what Sandhya Jain is pointing out is not unique and not the single point of view of a small minority. many people have pointed out his anti-hindu tendencies. I have not asked that every one be mentioned, but that a single one does get noted because he is notable for this (not in academic circles, but among the circles of many Hindus). Kkm5848 04:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

done:

While Witzel has been criticised by those supporting the original changes, who question his expertise of the subject and his appointment to the expert panel...

move on. Doldrums 04:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not solely about his expertise if you have been reading the discussion so far. if sounds like any piece that is negative about witzel is defined as an "opinion" piece and relegated to a tiny minority. Dude, stop the POV pushing already. There is no such thing as a purely NPOV article--everyone pushes an agenda. If we want to sterilize the article, we would have to remove every reference to every article since all of them have some sort of agenda. Especially the quotes from Witzel himself who is the least NPOV.

The Second Daily Pioneer article is not an "op-ed" piece. Now, you stating that it is is purely speculative (and incorrect) and WP:OR.

What I am stating with these references are:

What Sandhya Jain is stating is not isolated and relegated to the tiny minority (which is why using here was objected to in the first place).

If you disagree, do read the articles. If you are unable to do so, than I can start pulling snippets from them and spoonfeed you the relavent bits.

All that being said, I posted 8 references in total, of which you feel 3 are disqualified. What about the other 5

Please define what you mean by "Widely shared" and "significant" since I feel it is and having this number of supporting evidences is sufficient! Kkm5848 14:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This piece in the Pioneer is by Kanchan Gupta. This page lists Gupta as one of the paper's columnists--like Sandhya Jain. Ergo, Gupta's piece is a column, which represents his own point of view (in contrast to a news story where the reporter presumably presents facts in a neutral manner). But really, any reasonable person should be able to look at paragraphs like "Boorish comments denigrating India, Hindus and Hinduism by a self-proclaimed 'Indologist' who is on the faculty of Harvard University has unleashed a fierce debate over the increasing political activism of 'scholars' who teach at this prestigious American university" and realize that they're not dealing with a news report.

And Kkm, not only are you doing a bad job of understanding what kind of source Gupta's column is, once again, you're misreading what I've written. I don't think any of the new sources you've given us are worth using for this article. Except for the pieces from the Pioneer, these sources are websites that are essentially self-published (indymedia), lack editorial control, and/or belong to political organizations. The Pioneer is a major newspaper with editorial control, etc. But Jain and Gupta are columnists, not reporters. Their op-ed pieces should not be used as sources for inflammatory material like what you've been trying to include. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Another source http://capeem.org/docs/CompelWitzel.pdf (court document in the CAPEEM case in california showing Witzel's associations to aforementioned groups).

Akhilleus, instead of continuing to do WP:OR, why don't you provide citations stating why these are not usable and that Gupta is a columnist writing an op-ed piece? State where you find that all the sources do not have editorial control and also provide proof from "major" news publications showing that they are associated with political organizations. You have done nothing but ask for evidence and throw tantrums without a shred of evidence. Lets see you provide evidence to refute the citations I have provided. Provide a definition of what you consider to be "MAJOR PUBLICATION"! You have yet to provide an answer to the number of questions I have asked of you in this and previous entries! Kkm5848 22:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Kkm, there's a basic disconnect between what I'm writing and what you're writing. For instance, you seem to have totally ignored the fact that I linked to where the Pioneer itself says that Gupta is one of its columnists. To refresh your memory, the link is [14]. It really can't be any plainer--Gupta's writing represents his opinion, not a netural reporting of facts.

again, that's WP:OR until you show me a page stating exactly that this specific article is an op-ed piece. Kkm5848 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

As for "major publication", this should be self-explanatory: reputable news organizations, i.e. magazines, newspapers, and the like with an established reputation. Major metropolitan newspapers like the Oakland Tribune, Chicago Tribune, etc., qualify. Websites of political organizations like letindiadevelop.org, user-contributed "journalism" like indymedia, and community websites like lokvani.com don't qualify. If you've got more questions about this, perhaps it would be helpful if you solicited the opinions of some uninvolved users through a post on WP:RS/N.

again, WP:OR unless you can prove that letindiadevelop.org is a political organization. Kkm5848 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The court filing you linked to can't be used either. It's a primary source, which Wikipedia articles shouldn't use without commentary from a secondary source. It obviously represents the viewpoint of an organization that's in dispute with Witzel, so its claims aren't going to be anything close to neutral. And, from a cursory reading of the document, it appears that it relies on a claim of guilt by association: Witzel and some Christian groups were on the same side of the California textbook dispute, therefore Witzel is anti-Hindu. It's unsurprising that you would cite this document, because you've used the same logic of guilt by association in your edits: [15] [16].

Here it is again. The point of the presentation is not to show that Witzel is anti-hindu, but to show that worked with anti-hindu organizations -- which is exactly what that source shows--it refers to primary sources to prove this point, and hence is actually a secondary source. Kkm5848 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

You've made it very apparent that you think Witzel is guilty of religious bias, and that you want the article to say so. But you really need to keep in mind that this is a very serious accusation, and that if the article is going to say anything of the sort, we need the highest quality of sourcing. In general, your editing on this article has made it plain that you have a low opinion of Witzel, e.g. [17] [18]. I have very serious doubts about your neturality and good faith in this matter. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever my viewpoint on Witzel, I do know that a large group of people do consider him to be anti-Hindu and I don't believe in censoring such a large group of people. Based on your edit history, I could say the exact thing about you -- that you hold him in very high esteem and attempt to censor any edit that shows him in anything less than a positive light. Kkm5848 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea why you're so determined to show that you don't understand what a columnist is, but until you figure out the meaning of this page, I can't say that I trust your evaluation of any source. Your argument that a court filing is a secondary source is further proof of this--you don't understand the distinction between primary and secondary sources. As for my connection or esteem for Witzel, I have none--I haven't read much of his work, and don't know much about Indology. What I do know is that accusing people of religious bias is contrary to the BLP policy. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Witzel in this manner is very relevant to his notability vis-a-vis Indian politics (which concern....oh about one sixth of the world), ergo it meets WP:BLP to note that a number of prominent columnists and observers of Indian politics have commented on him in a negative fashion. I don't know what your pointed attacks are all about, but calling yourself neutral is little more than a joke, and that too not a very funny one. Your edits on David Frawley, whining on admin boards, and antics on arbcom, more or less destroyed any figment of neutrality you ever had.Bakaman 18:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you show that this particular criticism of Witzel is common among more than the columnists of the Pioneer and participants in the California textbook matter? Because two newspaper columns don't demonstrate that 1/6 of the world cares about Witzel, or that this is anything but the view of a tiny minority. It's nice that you understand what a columnist is, though, perhaps you can explain it to Kkm. Thanks for your even-handed evaluation of my neutrality; I'm not sure where I claimed I was. I did say that I don't have any connection to Witzel, or particular esteem for him--but I think that you and Kkm are determined to include claims of anti-religious bias in this article--you haven't exactly made it a secret that you personally believe Witzel is "anti-Hindu". --Akhilleus (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I've posted on WP:RSN asking for some outside input on the sourcing for the disputed material. For the benefit of uninvolved editors, the kind of edit that's under dispute is [19] [20] [21]. The sources for this material are:

Sources that Kkm5848 claims support his edits are:

• 1) http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=jain%2Fjain120.txt&writer=jain -- opinion column by Sandhya Jain
• 2) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060130/ai_n16032672/pg_2 -- article in the Oakland Tribune which quotes G. Desai as saying Witzel is biased--Desai is a spokesman of an organization that had a dispute w/Witzel
• 3) http://www.dailypioneer.com/displayit1.asp?pathit=/archives2/dec2505/front_page/story1.txt -- opinion column by Kanchan Gupta
• 4) http://hamilton.indymedia.org/newswire/display/144/index.php -- indymedia publishes user-contributed content, with little or no editorial control
• 5) http://www.lokvani.com/lokvani/article.php?article_id=3050 -- looks like a community organization, not a major media outlet
• 6) http://haindavakeralam.org/PageModule.aspx?PageID=387&SKIN=C -- political organization
• 7) http://www.letindiadevelop.org/irochtc/06_india_west_2006-02-10.htm -- political organization
• 8) http://capeem.org/docs/CompelWitzel.pdf -- a court filing, and therefore a primary source

Kkm5848 hasn't explained what content in sources 3-8 is relevant to the material he wants to include, and some of the sources don't seem to support his claims. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

My 2 cents

Number 1 and 3 are opinion columns and can only be used as such, and it is not clear to me (who knows nothing of the subject) how notable their opinions are. This would need to be shown BTW As a warning for other editors, the articles also crash my Firefox webbrowser!

Numbers 4-7 are websites without the required editorial control. Number 8 is a court document putting only one side of the story.

Number 2 is the most useful, and I don't see that anybody has noticed this on page 1 of the article [22]

" Patel and members of the Hindu Education Foundation have obtained letters of support from other scholars, Hindu temples and Indian organizations, including the Foundation for Hindu Religious Studies, the Fremont-based Friends of India Society International in Northern California, the Milpitas-based Jain Center of Northern California, the Fremont-based Gujarati Cultural Association, and Vedic Dharma Samaj. The groups also accused Witzel of having an "anti-Hindu" and "anti-India" agenda -- a charge he denies -- and solicited the support of Rep. Pete Stark, D-Fremont, and Rep. Linda Sanchez, D- Lakewood, who asked the state superintendent to investigate Witzel's background."

Would this not be useful? The charge and the denial seems well sourced to me. I don't see any reliably sourced information for the links with Christian organizations part, however. Slp1 03:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I had missed that. Thanks for pointing it out. This now looks like a better source, but the basic problem remains: is this a notable enough opinion to include in the article, or does it belong to a tiny minority? I haven't seen any evidence that makes me believe that anyone except for the people involved in the California textbook matter hold this opinion, nor does it seem that these charges of bias are a common feature of reporting about the textbook controversy. There's also the problem that these charges seem to have been made as part of maneuvering for a court case--some discussion about this, and this relevance of Witzel's alleged bias, is in the talk page archives. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I begin to think that the accusations (and the denials) are notable within the text-book context, given the phrasing of the above quote ("these groups"), the opinion columns and the fact that Witzel himself says "I always get misrepresented that I am a Hindu hater, but I am not. I hate people who misrepresent history" in the Rediff.com interview. I think it can be phrased carefully so it is clear that these are accusations not facts, and that they are denied.

I would reiterate that the claims from the opinion columns about possible links with Christian evangelical groups are not appropriately sourced and should not be in the article.Slp1 13:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm unconvinced that these accusations should be included in the article. I found three more news stories that mention them: [23] from the Sacramento Bee, [24] from the Wall Street Journal, reprinted (possibly illegally) by letindiadevelop.org, and [25] from the Metro, a weekly paper in San Jose. This story is pretty detailed, and even mentions the hate e-mail that Witzel's received.

But other news reports don't mention these accusations at all, e.g. [26] from the Christian Science Monitor, [27] from the San Francisco Chronicle (mentions W. only once), [28] from the San Francisco Chronicle (mentions Wizel only once), [29] from the Times of India (mentions W. only once), [30] from the Sacramento Bee (doesn't mention Witzel at all), and [31] from the Stanford Daily (more of an opinion/commentary piece than a news report, and from a college paper). These are just the stories I could access; many of the links at Californian Hindu textbook controversy are dead, and I'm not that good with Lexis-Nexis searches, so I'm sure there are sources that I've missed.

My point here is that news coverage of this controversy generally devotes little or no space to accusations of bias on W.'s part. When they are mentioned, it's usually in a dismissive fashion. For instance, the Wall Street Journal article says: "A petition from Hindu advocates called on Harvard to end its association with 'Aryan Supremacist Creationist hate mongering.'" That presentation implies that the people who signed the petition are a bit loopy. Even the article in the Metro, which is fairly detailed, treats the accusations as something to be laughed off. For these reasons, I don't think we should give the accusations any airtime.

However, if a consensus develops that this material must be included, it has to be phrased carefully, as Slp1 says. It might be as simple as changing

While Witzel has been criticised by those supporting the original changes, who question his expertise of the subject and his appointment to the expert panel, his efforts have received the support of academics and other South Asian community groups.

to

Witzel's efforts received the support of academics and some South Asian community groups, but attracted criticism from those supporting the original changes, who question his expertise on the subject and his appointment to the expert panel; some supporters of the original changes have accused Witzel of being biased against Hinduism.

The article text would need to include the appropriate footnotes, of course. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I have done a Factiva search, and did not find much more than you did. Many of the articles, focus appropriately, as you point out, on the controversy rather than much about the players. However, there is a peer-reviewed scholarly article from Social Forces, called Multiculturalism and "American" Religion: The Case of Hindu Indian Americans Volume 85; Issue 2. The full article is not on line, but here is the abstract [32], and I could email copies of the article to anybody who wishes. The text says:

"Witzel and Farmer swung into action and publicized the matter to other scholars of India via the Internet. On November 8, Witzel sent a letter to the California Board of Education with signatures from 46 other prominent academics specializing in Indian studies. The letter urged the board to reject the controversial edits proposed by the Hindu groups on the basis that they were "not of a scholarly but of a religious-political nature ... primarily promoted by Hindutva supporters." Witzel also pointed out that the same revisions that the Hindu groups were trying to make in California textbooks had been temporarily inserted in textbooks in India when the Indian central government was led by a Hindutva party (between 1998 and 2004) and had since been removed when that government had been voted out of power. Various Indian American groups those opposed to the efforts of the VF-HEF-HAF (which included some scholars, secular Indian Americans and Dalits or lower castes) and those supportive of these groups - mobilized their respective constituencies. Through a spate of articles on Internet websites, discussion groups, newspapers and magazines, both sides tried to get their views heard by a wider public. Articles by secular Indian American groups and some scholars meticulously traced and publicized the links between the Vedic Foundation, Hindu Education Foundation, Hindu American Foundation and Hindutva groups in the United States and India, and they criticized the changes as trying to promulgate a sanitized view of history and deny oppression (IPAC 2006, Maira and Swamy 2006). Groups supportive of the VF, HEF and HAF on the other hand, denounced the scholars, secular Indian American and Dalit groups as "anti-Hindu."

. There was also another article on 20 February 2006 in The Oakland Tribune

"The Hindu Education Foundation, the Vedic Foundation and the Hindu American Foundation deny any connections to Indian political organizations. In turn, they have accused their critics of being anti-Hindu, a charge Witzel and members of FOSA deny.

, as well as another reference to anti-Hindu allegations against W in an "The Hindu" article by David Frawley (who I gather is a critic!!). As noted above there are also other articles that mention Witzel (in passing or not) who don't talk about the specific allegation. On the whole though, I tend to think it is part of the story and adequately sourced, and believe your phrasing above is excellent. I would suggest adding "an allegation that he denies", however. Slp1 23:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for fiding sources. If you have access to Project Muse, the article you mention can be found at http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/social_forces/v085/85.2kurien.pdf. I'll note that even in this article, the accusations are mentioned as a detail of the larger story, rather than something deserving attention in and of themselves. So, personally, I'd still leave them out, but now that we have an actual news story and an article in a peer-reviewed journal, I'm less concerned about the BLP implications--as long as we adopt your suggestion of adding "an allegation that he denies"--this wording would link nicely with the following sentence, "Rejecting criticism that he was a 'Hindu hater', Witzel said, 'I hate people who misrepresent history.'" --Akhilleus (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur with this...except, we should remove the last statement..."I hate people..." which is from an interview - being a first hand report (and not second hand) as stated as a requirement earlier and also an obviously bias source...and also being completely irrelevnet. 24.219.146.189 03:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, 24.219.146.189--have you edited this article before? The quote from Witzel is obviously relevant, it's an illustration of him denying allegations of bias. I'm putting it back in. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Name of article

I just finished adding a bunch of categories for this article -- and I'm wondering why the name of the article includes his initials. Is there really any reason it shouldn't be simply Michael Witzel? Cgingold (talk) 15:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree.--Slp1 (talk) 02:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I've checked a couple of his publications that are listed in the article and they're credited either to "Michael Witzel" or "M. Witzel", so I'm going to go ahead and change the name of the article. If there's some reason why we should be using "Michael E. J. Witzel" instead, it can always be moved back. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:LEAD

I was wondering why this article does not have a proper lead section. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 04:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Because no one's written one yet. What information do you think is missing? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

User:relato, Pls dont try to mix up frawley with lal.- Bharatveer (talk) 12:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You are again repeating the same . Can I know the reason?-Bharatveer (talk) 06:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the sources, they criticise Witzel for the same reason. The article should state that much. I see no reason not to. --Relata refero (disp.) 08:42, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1

From the archive

This remark was added to old conversations by User:Joeseph Stalin just before archiving:

"This isnt about guilt by association .It's about actively campaigning against Hindus with those organizations therefore the criticism is valid." You can see it in it's original context in the section Sandhya Jain material in the archive. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Question

Hi,

It is said "However, Witzel had clarified that point already in 2001 (in EJVS 7-3, notes 45-46)" in crticism section. Can somebody tell me what excatly did Witzel say? There seems to be some anachronism, how can somebody clarify about somebody's criticisim before it is made? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aproposo (talk • contribs) 07:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

And can I also put some criticism from Asko Parpola, Massimo Vidale and Iravatham Mahadevan?

There's a link right there in the article -- can't you access it? Anyway, this is page 15, footnote 46, which, it can be argued, is a 'clarification":

This passage, quoted in an earlier publications (1989, excerpted and --unfortunately-- simply computer-copied in 1995),

was not correctly translated as printed in 1989/1995. It has elicited lively, if not emotive and abusive internet discussions, even alleging "fabrication of evidence" (see also Elst 1999: 164, who misattributes to me "the desire to counter the increasing skepticism regarding the Aryan invasion theory" as reason for writing my paper), -- all of this in spite of repeated on-line clarifications over the years and general apologies (Witzel 1997: 262 n.21). -- Retrospectively, I should have printed the full explanation in that footnote, but I was sure then that I could do so in the earlier version of this very paper, slated for print in 1997).

What had occurred was that I had unfortunately misplaced a parenthesis in the original publication of 1989 devoted not to the Aryan migration but to OIA dialects (and simply copied in my 1995 paper, a short summary of RV history), -- i.e. I printed: "(His other people) stayed at home in the West" instead of: (His other people stayed) at home in the West" or better "Amvasu (stayed at home) in the West." In this way I had unfortunately intermingled translation and interpretation in these two summary style papers, without any further discussion, -- which set me up for such on-line criticisms as that of recent adversaries who deduce (e.g., amusingly, in the Indian right wing journal, The Organiser) that I do not even know the rudiments of PÍinean grammar. (Of course, I teach, in first year Sanskrit, the past tense of am + vas as amvasan, not amvasuµ, a 'mistake' some critics rhetorically accuse me of, in spite of hundreds of correct translations of such past tenses!) Or worse, they accuse me of "fabricating evidence" for the invasion theory.

[...]

In other words, the weight given by some the internet to their point that a different interpretation of this passage would remove (all) evidence for an immigration/trickling in of speakers of Indo-Aryan is, at a minimum overblown, and in fact just a rhetorical ploy. This passage is of course just one, and a late one at that, speaking of tribal movements. Therefore, Elst's overblown summary (1999: 165) "The fact that a world-class specialist has to content himself with a late text... and that has to twist its meaning this much in order to get an invasionist story out of it..." is just rhetorics. The passage in question is just

one point in the whole scheme of immigration and acculturation, a fact that Elst does not take into account here. [...]

(above is copy-paste; some IAST symbols are misrendered.)

As for the other "criticism from Asko Parpola, Massimo Vidale and Iravatham Mahadevan", it's probably about the recent Indus Valley script debate — it's probably undue weight (relative to Witzel's work) and seems too much recentism, so probably not worth adding. Shreevatsa (talk) 07:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou so much for that. The line I refered to earlier "However, Witzel had clarified that point already in 2001 (in EJVS 7-3, notes 45-46)" is a confusing one. It needs some elaboration. I will try editing it.

And secondly, the rule on "undue weight" says "Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each.". The views of the three scholars are definitely not minority views. By the rule they have to be given proportionate weightage in this article. And as I understand they are not less significant than Witzel's works. They are also not recent media events. Thanks for your views and help —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aproposo (talk • contribs) 11:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bibliography

Where is the bibliography. There are references like this " Witzel aims at indicating the emergence of the Kuru tribe in the Delhi area (1989, 1995, 1997, 2003), its seminal culture and its political dominance, as well as studying the origin of late Vedic polities[36] and the first Indian empire in eastern North India (1995, 1997, 2003, 2010)." But the foot note is unrelated to the earlier texts. What is 1989? 1995? This article is next to useless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.1.194 (talk) 18:41, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

IP from Messachussetts repeatedly removing sourced content

Somebody using different IP socks from Mesachussets is repeatedly removing this sourced edit in the guise of formatting the article:

"Indian journalist and columnist, Kanchan Gupta, writing for The Daily Pioneer, produced a list of allegedly pejorative and hateful remarks of Michael Witzel against diaspora Hindus in a section titled "The Witzel Unprintables"". 

Reference: Harvard don denigrates Hindus - By Kanchan Gupta - The Pioneer (URL: dailypioneer.com) December 25 2005

Please note that The Pioneer is an established and mainstream Indian newpaper. It is the same newspaper which Rudyard Kipling once used to write for. This reference qualifies WP:RS and has sufficient secondary sourcce coverage. If deletion is repeated it would be reported as vandalism. Thanks.--History Sleuth (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

PS - Another Reference: Zygon: Volume 42, Issues 3-4, pp 741,Institute on Religion in an Age of Science, Meadville/Lombard Theological School,Joint Publication Board of Zygon through Blackwell Publishers, 2007

--History Sleuth (talk) 03:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I've removed it again as a BLP violation. Only the best sources and references should be used for negative statements and accusations of this sort. Please do not restore it before getting consensus here. Kindly provide direct links to the source materials so the verifiability can be checked, and explain why this man's opinion (assuming it is verifiable) is notable enough for inclusion. --Slp1 (talk) 03:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What made you believe The Pioneer and Blackwell Publishers are not reliable sources? Details about source material are pretty clear and may be checked. Thanks. --History Sleuth (talk) 01:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Former Sanskrit Chair Remains Controversial

Is that any good or is that not acceptable to give real Truthful criticism?[33]-VEda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.160.13 (talk) 05:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

PLEASE use [ ] instead of <ref></ref> when you add a web-link! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

And the answer is: no. From that page: ""He's a good scholar," said the student, who requested anonymity. "He's not a good administrator."" Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Case witzel in favour of text books errors 70% percent of HEF changes had been accept

"HEF organizers told India-West they were pleased that 70 percent of their changes had been accepted."[34]-ved

This should be accepted instead of the section bellow

"He was appointed to an expert panel set up to review the changes[83] and helped draft the compromise edits that were later adopted" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.160.13 (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

And we would do that why? The current statement is about Witzel, the subject of the article, yours is about the HEF. Dougweller (talk) 07:07, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

because this small section is about the case in which witzel failed to give a winning foundation to his claims, which ended up with 70% originally purposed by HEP being accepted!

You wrote

n 2005, Witzel joined other academics and activist groups to oppose changes to California state school history textbooks proposed by US-based Hindu groups, mainly The Vedic Foundation and Hindu Education Foundation (HEF)

But in the reference it states that 70% was given in favor to the disputed claims by the HEF, which means that Witzel failed with a humiliating 30% acceptance of his own proposal.

""the subcommittee responded in a very farcical manner to this lengthy debate. After the public hearing, without any deliberations, within a few minutes, the subcommittee confirmed all the staff recommendations."

"It particularly questioned the appointment of Witzel on an expert panel to make recommendations. It was a letter from HEF critic Witzel, supported by over 40 South Asian experts, that caused the state board to revisit an earlier decision to accept the bulk of HEF recommendations."

So 40 south asian experts is the reason why Witzel was forced to turn back on his statements,So Im not sure why Im being Hung out to dry here by a truthful criticism found in the very reference which you gave on this page!

The way you have painted the case is as if Witzel was the man who solved the issue? Witzel did no such thing, he was fighting for all of the proposed to be removed but in the end everything which he dismissed as false was accepted to the point of 70%!

Also no mention of the 40 asian experts which is the reason his case fell to its knees, in short im giving correct information from the case giving detailed areas from your own deference and im happy that this will be seen by others on the talk page. Thank you and good night!82.38.160.13 (talk) 04:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)ved

What about the above? why is that not acceptable Joshua?82.38.160.13 (talk) 03:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)Veda

Reply by Joshua Jonathan: Read carefully.

• "the subcommittee confirmed all the staff recommendations" - not the proposals of the HEF were accepted, but the staff recommendations.
• The HEF states that "70 percent of their changes had been accepted." The HEF spins the outcome, concluding that 70% of their proposals were accpted. The webpage states:

• "[adoption] - [of staff recommendations for edits and corrections] - [proposed by the Hindu Education Foundation]" -
• "[The staff recommendations reflect a compromise on a substantial part of the proposed edits]"

• "which means that Witzel failed with a humiliating 30% acceptance of his own proposal" - no, 30% of the HEF-proposals were completely rejetced
• "It was a letter from HEF critic Witzel, supported by over 40 South Asian experts, that caused the state board to revisit an earlier decision to accept the bulk of HEF recommendations." which you interpre as "So 40 south asian experts is the reason why Witzel was forced to turn back on his statements" - on the contrary, those souht Asian experts supported Witzel.
• "witzel failed to give a winning foundation", "Witzel failed with a humiliating 30% acceptance of his own proposal", "his case fell to its knees" - this is a battleground mentality.
• "in short im giving correct information from the case" - no, you're not, on the contrary. And you show that you're POV-pushing, misrepresenting sources.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

German American?

German American claim seems not to be sourced in the article. At least I can't find it. Solomon7968 17:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)

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Recent additions

I have reverted these recent additions per WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:CHERRYPICKING. They are clearly not intended as encyclopedic contributions, but as attacks on Michael Witzel. The only substantial information in these additions is that some authors have criticised some of his arguments. Hardly surprising; that's how scholarship works. The rest are ad hominim attacks. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:49, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Not balanced, mostly references Witzel articles

The article does not conform to expectations for an encyclopedia. Its self-promontional content, which excludes the serious issues with Witzel's scholarship that are widely known in the scholarly community, must be toned down and balanced with a criticism of his work.

Most of the references are to Witzel's own articles and his website or to his own defunct journal EJVS. PhilipSamueli (talk) 16:41, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Indus-script

This section was first called "Criticism." I renamed it to "Indus script," the proper subject. No need to remove sourced info. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:59, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Collaboration with Evangelical Group

Joshua Jonathan reverted my addition of the collaboration between the subject and the Dalit Freedom Network that was revealed by a subpoena of Dalit Freedom Network emails citing WP:RS and pov-pushing. The addition is below:

As a part of the case, a subpoena to the Dalit Freedom Network exposed that the it was not in fact a Dalit group but rather an evangelical group that operated out of a church. Emails obtained from the group also showed that Witzel coordinated his activities with the church group and attempted to conceal their church background by erasing information from their Wikipedia's description.

References

I would like to understand why there this is not a reliable source and why this is considered POV pushing given that the cited material is directly sourced from emails obtained from a subpoena. The collaboration between the subject and DFN is also documented in this |Motion to Compel Subpoena to Michael Witzel. Rather than get into an edit war, let's discuss to your objection to this proposed edit. LovaLova (talk) 14:25, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Actually, it's two problems. This line

As a part of the case, a subpoena to the Dalit Freedom Network exposed that the it was not in fact a Dalit group but rather an evangelical group that operated out of a church.

is unsourced. I don't see the relevance, nor is there any clue that this organisation concealed their identity.

The second sentence reads

Emails obtained from the group also showed that Witzel coordinated his activities with the church group and attempted to conceal their church background by erasing information from their Wikipedia's description.

The source you provided looks like such an email. Yet, which source says that Emails obtained from the group also showed that Witzel coordinated his activities with the church group? Which source says that this is an authentic source, and the complete, unredacted text? Which source says it's not a fake? It's a dubious, primary source, which you interpret. Does it say what exactly Witzel erased? It doesn't. And then, again: what's the relevance? What is does say, is that a Nanci Ricks doesn't want her organisation to be identified as a "missions organization" - that's not the same as "conceal[ing] their church background." You're interpreting a dubious primary source in a biography on a living person; that's a four-fold no-go. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:01, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Clean-up

@MJL: could you please be more specific about the addition of these clean-up tags? Thanks! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: My bad! It currently

• suffers from citation overkill and (among other things)
• has problems with the way the lead is written as it does not summarize the topic very well,
• the order of events in the subject's life is unclear,
• why this person is considered notable to a satisfactory degree in the beginning,
• can be confusing for a person unfamiliar with the subject to read, and
• generally suffers from undue weight being made.

Cheers! (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! But please explain further: which info is undue? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

PS: I do agree that the research-section could be shortened. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:19, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I am glad that you will work on the revisions, User:Joshua Jonathan. By saying that “it is your bad”, I assume you have mostly written it. But do you have the judgment to read academic resumes? If you did, you will realize the hollowness of Michael Witzel’s record. Where are the scholarly notices of his work? Without those, he cannot be considered any better than a third-rate scholar.

The article on him just keeps on citing him, one after another. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? And the article merely lists his papers as, for example, in the paragraph starting with “Shorter papers provide analyses of important religious (2004) and literary …”, which is quite like the others. This is what casebooks for faculty going up for tenure read like! Even a young faculty will be embarrassed to just list papers without clearly explaining what the content is and what the claimed originality is.

He is a fringe scholar of mythology (see the reviews by Lincoln, Thompson and others) and a sloppy one of Indology (again see reviews). He has very few peer-reviewed journal articles and books. If he spent years doing his mythology work, why isn't his work discussed by scholars of mythology?

An entire section on his self-published article on the Indus Script (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies was run by him) is most bizarre. He promoted it hard but it has been roundly rebutted by everyone. It doesn't deserve to be on his page because it not notable. Of course, a mention of it could go in the Indus Script page.

For the sake of quality on Wikipedia, the article should be severely shortened, the Indus Script section deleted, and a section on the severe criticism that he has received (as above) added. MurkhaHanta (talk) 13:40, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

At second thought, the article gives a good overview of his work. It's a pity it attracts pov-editors, but that's also a sign of the qulity and influence of Witzel's work. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:59, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Joshua Jonathan Rewrite

The rewrite solves some problems but creates many more.

The biggest problem is that it reads like a version of Witzel's CV, which is against Wikipedia's guidelines. It doesn't even serve any purpose since there is a link to Witzel's CV, where all these papers are listed.

As example, here's a paragraph: "Shorter papers provide analyses of important religious (2004) and literary concepts of the period,[66] and its Central Asian antecedents[67] as well as such as the oldest frame story (1986, 1987), prosimetric texts (1997), the Mahabharata (2005), the concept of rebirth (1984), the 'line of progeny' (2000), splitting one's head in discussion (1987), the holy cow (1991),[68] the Milky Way (1984),[69] the asterism of the Seven Rsis (1995,[70] 1999), the sage Yajnavalkya (2003), supposed female Rishis in the Veda (2009,)[71] the persistence of some Vedic beliefs,[72][73] in modern Hinduism (1989[74] 2002, with cultural historian Steve Farmer and John B. Henderson), as well as some modern Indocentric tendencies (2001-).[75][76]

"Other work (1976-) deals with the traditions of medieval and modern India and Nepal, [77][16] [78][79] including its linguistic history,[20] Brahmins,[80][81] rituals, and kingship (1987) and present day culture,[82] as well as with Old Iran and the Avesta (1972-), including its homeland in Eastern Iran and Afghanistan (2000).[83]"

All this says nothing excepting list the papers or their keywords.

Joshua Jonathan may be Michael Witzel himself, but even then he should just focus on the main contributions of the work and not provide a list in a slightly different form (which isn't even annotated).

Trust this helps Wikipedia editors and administrators (and not just the subject) with making progress with this article.AnnexGwen (talk) 19:23, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: lol; now I'm Michael Witzel. Who would this newbie be? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:24, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

POV-pushing

This addition by PhilipSamueli to the lead

He has been severely criticized for his problematic scholarship in both the areas of mythology and Indology.

References

edit-summary To introduce some balance (see Talk), does not belong in the lead, nor is it NPOV. A couple of critical reviews is not the same as "severely criticized," and Lal is not a serious source. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Why isn't B.B. Lal a serious source? There is a pattern of serious problems in Witzel's work that should be mentioned somewhere in the article. If not in the lead, then as a separate section. MurkhaHanta (talk) 13:48, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Because Lal is a caricature of a scholar. See his stance on the Indo-Aryan migrations.

This is vacuous unsourced statement. LogicalistAnalyst (talk) 14:49, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

And this diff

He has been severely criticized for his problematic scholarship. In mythology, he is considered a fringe scholar and Bruce Lincoln has called his work "ill-founded, ill-conceived, unconvincing, and deeply disturbing in its implications." In Indology, he has been accused of wrong translations.

References

is not an improvement, of course. Tok Thompson is critical of Witzel, but does not use the word "fringe," nor does he adress all of Witzel's scholarship. What Lincoln writes is

The contrast is not between "Laurasian" and "Gondwana" mythologies, but between indigenous and exogenous agents, processes, and products of textualization. At a few points, Witzel entertains something like that idea (see pages 98-103), although he rejects it quickly and continues to theorize in terms of deep prehistory, waves of migration, patterns of diffusion, and contrasts between the styles of thought/narration he associates with two huge aggregates of the world's population. Some may find that attractive, but it strikes me as ill-founded, ill- conceived, unconvincing, and deeply disturbing in its implications.

Lincoln too is critical of The Origins of the World's Mythologies, but also doesn't adress all of Witzel's scholarship. To suggest so is utterly misleading, WP:CHERRYPICKING, and a violation of WP:NPOV.

In contrast, professor of sanskrit Frederick Smith writes:

All Vedic scholars have profited from his careful identification and reconstruction of Vedic dialects in second millennium BCE India and his dexterity in deploying IndoEuropean linguistics [...] Witzel’s thesis changes the outlook on all other diffusionist models [...] His interdisciplinary approach not only demonstrates that it has a promising future, but that it has arrived and that finally one can actually speak of a science of mythology.

Regarding various views on the quality of his translations, "accused" is not a neutral wording, and two sources is not enough to warrant the suggestion that all of his work is faulty.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:56, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

The Strange Case of Winged Blades of Godric (WBG)

The handle Winged Blades of Godric (WBG) introduces edits in other articles to cite work by Witzel whether it is relevant or not. This Witzel-obsessed handle never does any edits on Witzel's page and you may draw your conclusions from this.

LogicalistAnalyst (talk) 02:36, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. Whose sockpuppet are you? ~ Winged Blades^Godric 19:36, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Reviews of his work

Witzel's book The Origin of the World's Mythologies has been critically reviewed in Asian Ethnology, Religious Studies Review, and Journal of Folklore Research. Tok Thompson wrote [in Journal of Folklore Research]:

"This is an astonishing book, but not for the reasons the author intended. The Origin of the World's Mythology utilizes completely out of date and highly questionable scholarship to claim a grand scientific discovery which relies on the author's "theory" of ultimate mythological reconstruction, dating back all the way to reconstructed stories (i.e., made up by the author) told some 100,0000 years ago. The "theory" (I would say hypothesis) is implausible (in terms of data, scholarship, logic, internal plausibility, etc.), even more so than quasi-academic concepts, like Nostratic, which it relies on as proven fact. The book's main claim is explicitly racist. I define "racist" here simply as any argument that seeks to categorize large groups of people utilizing a bio-cultural argument ("race"), and that further describes one such group as essentially better, more developed, less "deficient," than the other(s).".

Whitley R. P. Kaufman notes:

"Thus a claim to have discovered a new, hitherto unrecognized pattern in the world's extant mythology - and indeed to trace it back to the very origin of the human species—will rightly be treated with no small amount of skepticism, if not incredulity."

Regarding Witzel's claim to have "the support of the sciences of archeology, linguistics, and genetics as a basis for reconstructing the movement of early man out of Africa to populate the world" which "allow[s] him to succeed where so many others have failed", Kaufman states,

"In truth, the long 90-page chapter on "The Contribution of Other Sciences" adds little evidentiary support for Witzel's thesis, and given its complex, technical nature, most readers will do well to simply skip it. The details of the Out of Africa theory remain highly speculative and conttoversial, and the dating is subject to enormous range of error."

Kaufman also notes the subjective nature of Witzel's reconstruction of the two types of myths that allegedly exist:

"Laurasian myths share a common storyline that tells of the creation, in mythic time, of the world, of several generations of deities during four or five ages, of the creation and fall of humans, and finally of an end of the universe, sometimes coupled with the hope for a new world. Laurasian mythology was successful as it put essential questions and answered them in a satisfactory way. It asked the eternal questions 'where do we come from?', 'why are we here?', 'where do we go?' and answered them by stating that we are descendants of the gods, who on their part have evolved from early generations and ultimately from the universe itself, whose ultimate origin is prominently debated."

"The Gondwanan mythologies do not have the continuous storyline nor accounts of the beginning and end of the world; rather, they are interested in the origins of humans… There are variations: men may be fashioned from clay or wood and we also encounter animals who may transform themselves into men… but in all cases, the universe is already there."

Kaufman states,

"The situation is even worse when one realizes that these summaries are not objective data from the field. There is no single myth anywhere that contains all these elements; each of these ideal types is a composite reconstmction by Witzel from myths of different peoples found over enormous geographic areas, which are used to extrapolate back tens of thousands of years to a purported single original myth. Not only is such a method dubious, but there is no independent objective means of testing any of the conclusions, other than Witzel's impressionistic judgments about what seems basic and authentic. The arbittariness of this process is exemplified by the fact that other scholars who attempt to reconstmct a universal myth, such as van Binsbergen, end up with a very different storyline and do not see the purported division between Laurasian and Gondwana myth (358).

The most significant review of Witzel's work to appear has been by the noted scholar Bruce Lincoln, Caroline E. Haskell Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus of the History of Religions in the Divinity School of the University of Chicago. Lincoln notes that

"In some areas, Witzel seems to have read little more than a book or two by his Harvard colleagues (for example, Carrasco 1982 and Sullivan 1988), or to have relied on works written by poets, rather than ranking authorities (Graves 1955; Colum 1937). Worse still, when treating the myths of non-literate societies, Witzel consistently ignores the more recent, more reliable, and less prejudicial work of British, American, and French anthropologists, in favor of dated German literature steeped in the Kulturkreis paradigm, which used a mix of racial, cultural, and geographic factors to categorize the world's peoples in ways that naturalized, legitimated, and reinforced the privilege of Europe's colonial powers."

His summation of the book is as follows:

"The contrast is not between "Laurasian" and "Gondwana" mythologies, but between indigenous and exogenous agents, processes, and products of textualization. At a few points, Witzel entertains something like that idea (see pages 98-103), although he rejects it quickly and continues to theorize in terms of deep prehistory, waves of migration, patterns of diffusion, and contrasts between the styles of thought/narration he associates with two huge aggregates of the world's population. Some may find that attractive, but it strikes me as ill-founded, ill-conceived, unconvincing, and deeply disturbing in its implications."

References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by LogicalistAnalyst (talk • contribs) 22 may 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for these stuff/links. To be fair, that book was quite awful. ~ Winged Blades^Godric 19:45, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect Translations and Related Matter

The distinguished Indian archaeologist B.B. Lal pointed out that Witzel incorrectly translated a well-known passage and hung a whole story on this passage to push his pet theory. He was so upset by the lack of ethics shown by Witzel that he titled his paper "Should One Give up All Ethics for Promoting One's Theory?" Here's a link: https://www.jstor.org/stable/29757583?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

More of similar unethical behavior is summarized in Agarwal's paper that appeared in Journal of Indo-European Studies, Vol. 31, No.1-2: pp.107-185, 2003: http://www.jies.org/Discussion/MichaelWitzel.pdf

LogicalistAnalyst (talk) 02:12, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

BB Lal pursues one travesty of a scholarship (and I am being mild). Even, if his allegations are true, it will be a case of pot calling the kettle, black. ~ Winged Blades^Godric 19:41, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

And, V. Aggarwal, seriously?! ~ Winged Blades^Godric 19:44, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, well, JIES put it up on their web site in the interest of fairness. They made a mistake, obviously. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:53, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

"Laurasia" and "Gondwana"

Guess why the baby looks like an elephant!

Does Witzel not know that, in India, it is the "Gondwana" myths that rule the day? The "Laurasian" myths are dead! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Request for changes to be added to the article

Michael Witzel's article is filled with extremely misleading summaries that portray him as a massive critic of hindu sectarianism. While it may be somewhat accurate, it's a bit misleading since Witzel has also made it clear that against all forms of sectarianism and not hindu sectarianism specifically. Also, there's far too much attention given to him regarding the california textbook controversy which again somewhat gives a misleading impression of him. I have some changes I would like to make and just wanted to inform everyone. If they have an issue my edits they can bring it up under this headline. Krao212 (talk) 19:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)