Talk:Middle Collegiate Church

Severity of fire

While we mustn't go overboard and use the past tense in referring to the church due to the fire, we don't want to understate it either. Multiple reliable sources, quoting the pastor, indicate that the church has been gutted, and some indicate that the church was destroyed or "nearly" destroyed. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:16, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, 'church building' because the 'official word' is that the community 'isn't going anywhere' (there is organizational continuity going back to 1628, even if the current teachings don't much resemble what was taught in 1628, although the denomination seems continuous). MaynardClark (talk) 01:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken:

• The New York Times quotes a senior minister as saying “I see a gutted building full of smoke,” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/nyregion/church-fire-nyc.html
• The New York Daily News describes "a raging six-alarm fire that left only its massive stone facade intact" and says Assistant Chief John Hodgens described both the vacant building and the church as “total losses.” https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-nyc-fire-abandoned-building-historic-church-20201205-ece2vdhwnnawfbacrdvvjtemcu-story.html
• The New York Post reported "A fast-moving inferno gutted an over century-old church in the East Village." https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/massive-east-village-fire-spreads-to-nearby-church/

The church was gutted. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 04:46, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Whether the church was "gutted" or not remains to be seen. The Post is the only one that uses that word in its own voice -- which is appropriate because "gutted" is a rather tabloidish word -- the Times quotes someone else (a non-specialist with an emotional connection to the church), and the Daily News describes the extent of the damage without characterizing it. Whether "total loss" equals "gutted" can be debated. "Total loss" is more of an insurance term than anything else, and "gutted" implies that the insides were totally destroyed but the exterior remains. You also ignored that the Times - the most reliable of the three papers - says "significantly damaged" in its own voice, which is why I prefer that description until a more definitive evaluation is available. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:07, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

No, it is absolutely not correct that only the Post uses "gutted" in its own voice, and it is not for us to judge which of the newspapers cited is "most reliable," and disregard all the other sources, which are fairly uniform in describing the church fire. Even the Times quotes the senior minister of the church saying his building was "gutted".

Multiple reliable sources in addition to the Post and Daily News say in their own voice that the building was either "gutted" or "destroyed," and the Daily News reported that only the stone facade was left intact, a detail removed in your edit, which removed the Daily News entirely as a source I believe. See below:

The Guardian "Historic New York church housing Liberty Bell gutted by massive fire". First paragraph: "A historic church in lower Manhattan that houses New York’s Liberty Bell and whose congregation dates to the city’s earliest days was gutted early on Saturday by a massive fire that sent flames shooting through the roof." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/05/new-york-middle-collegiate-church-liberty-bell-fire

NPR: "A massive fire gutted a historic church in Manhattan that is home to "New York's Liberty Bell," which rang out to mark the birth of the U.S. in 1776." https://www.npr.org/2020/12/05/943533228/massive-fire-tears-through-historic-church-home-to-new-yorks-liberty-bell

Gothamist: "Fire That Destroyed East Village Church Also Displaced 22 Women From Shelter Next Door" First paragraph: "The massive fire that gutted a historic East Village church on Saturday morning also displaced nearly two dozen women living next door" https://gothamist.com/news/fire-destroyed-east-village-church-also-displaced-22-women-shelter-next-door

WABC-TV: "A community is coming together after a massive fire gutted a historic church in Manhattan on Saturday." The broadcaster can be heard saying the church was "destroyed." https://abc7ny.com/east-village-fire-manhattan-middle-collegiate-church-massive/8519342/

WNBC-TV: Headline "Massive East Village Fire Destroys Historic 19th Century Church" Broadcaster says church is "a complete loss." https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/massive-east-village-fire-damages-nearby-church/2762937/

WCBS-TV: Headline "Historic Middle Collegiate Church Destroyed In East Village Fire; Cause Under Investigation, FDNY Says" https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/12/05/middle-collegiate-church-destroyed-east-village-fire/

Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

It is absolutely in our purview to decide what is a reliable source and what is not, and which of multiple sources has proved to be more reliable. We are "editors" not "transcriptionists", and we make editorial decisions all the time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, when reliable sources disagree. But in this case, they don't. "Substantially damaged" does not contradict "gutted," which is what happened to the church according to all sources. However gutted more completely describes what happened, and is more informative to the reader. The church was totally burned out and only its exterior shell was left. "Substantially" is vague and does not state what happened in a clear manner. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:30, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Bell

Many of the articles about the fire refer to the historic bell - "New York's Liberty Bell". Shouldn't there be more in the article about that ? -- Beardo (talk) 04:22, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I see more details have been added - great, thanks. -- Beardo (talk) 15:37, 6 December 2020 (UTC)