Talk:Migjeni

RV

I RVed @Amanuensis Balkanicus. His edits contradict what Migjeni's relatives have said about their origin. The confusion mightcome from the fact that Migjenis mother was from the Kuci tribe which is now almost entirely Slavicized but back then was bilingual. Durraz0 (talk) 22:26, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

A part of this narrative began because foreign authors didn't know until the last 20 years that there were Orthodox Albanians in the north. A bigger part of the narrative began by Arshi Pipa, an anti-Communist and crypto-fascist emigre who targeted Migjeni because Migjeni's works were promoted by the Socialist regime. Pipa wanted to show that the regime was not "really Albanian" so he tried to show how authors it promoted were Slavs, Jews, Greeks etc. When he wrote that Migjeni was a Slav, he was basically dog-whistling racist narratives about "Slavo-communists". Younger generations may not be aware of this part of the narrative, but it's the key to understand how the idea that Migjeni was not of Albanian origin spread.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:01, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Side comment: Migjeni paternally was from Upper Reka.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:02, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• The article should say sth like "Some scholars consider Migjeni of Serb ancestry. Angjelina Ceka Luarasi, daughter of Migjeni's younger sister Olga stated in her book Migjeni–Vepra, co-authored with Skënder Luarasi, that Migjeni was of Albanian and not of any Slavic origin and Migjeni spoke only Albanian as his mother tongue and later learned to speak a Slavic language while growing up.[8] Angjelina states that the family is descended from the Nikolla family from Debar in the Upper Reka region and the Kokoshi family.[8] Angjelina maintained that the family used many Slavic names because of their Orthodox faith.[8]". The Serb origin claim should be added next to Anxhelina. Making the Serb origin claim a fact is redundant POV pushing. Even more if one takes into account that nobody disputes that his mother's family were Catholic Albs from Kavaja. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:37, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

This looks like a real attempt of resolving the issue here Ktrimi, much appreciated. I would agree with this. Ahmet Q. (talk) 14:50, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

The fact that Migjeni is of Serbian origin is very, very solidly sourced. Attempts to hide or remove it by brute-force edit-warring while hiding behind the usual "seek consesnus" stonewalling [1] are futile. Now, we can do this the easy way (agreement in the talkpage, or the hard way (RfC). Either way, the material will be added to the article. The only question is whether those trying to hide the material will waste hundreds of hours of their time and write megabytes of text in a futile attempt to keep it out, or not. Authors with an obvious COI (relatives) like Angelina should be avoided. And definitely not be given an entire paragraph over other, more objective sources. Khirurg (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Sources are contradicting on this matter, why are you setting up WP:BATTLEGROUND? Durraz0 (talk) 15:17, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

(ec) Therefore, I propose the following: His family was of Serb origin. He was raised as an Eastern Orthodox Christian and his first language was Serbo-Croatian. This is disputed by Angjelina Ceka Luarasi, daughter of Migjeni's younger sister Olga, who stated in her book Migjeni–Vepra, co-authored with Skënder Luarasi, that Migjeni was of Albanian and not of any Slavic origin and Migjeni spoke only Albanian as his mother tongue and later learned to speak a Slavic language while growing up.

This accommodates everyone, without giving WP:UNDUE weight to any sources. Khirurg (talk) 15:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

@Khirurg: Feel free to open an RfC. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:25, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

New edits about subjects which can cause many disputes - if there is no consensus - can be discussed via RfC. If we want to compare & contrast sources, I could support Ktrimi's version.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Categorical no to stating in WP:WIKIVOICE "His family was of Serb origin". We are not taking a stance on this. And not only is that problematic between Albanians and Serbs, but it is tantamount to claiming people from Kuci (Montenegro) and Upper Reka (North Macedonia, Albanian speaking, Orthodox, the nearest Slavic areas spoke Macedonian not Serbo-Croatian...) as "Serbs" which is... a minefield at best. --Calthinus (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I could get behind comparing and contrasting sources. But devoting an entire paragraph to his granddaughter's comments while only briefly attributing his Serb (or even his Slavic) origin to "some scholars" certainly gives undue weight to the former. The fact is virtually all the academic sources on Google Books describe his origins as Slavic and to minimize this fact is highly misleading. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The upshot here is that most people who are interested in Migjeni do not care about his origins. The claims of his Serbian/Slavic origins came from the general Balkan habit of "hahaha zomg your national heros are ours, please thank us your welcome", rather than an actually fruitful line of academic inquiry; see also Albanians "claiming" Milos Obilic and Marko(s) Botsari(s) and Laskarina Bouboulina; cf also Croats and Tesla, and, of course, Serbs and Skanderbeg. His native language being Serbo-Croatian (or Macedonian?) would have mattered if it affected his writing, yet it is precisely his mastery of the Albanian language for which he is known. To my knowledge, he also never identified with a Slavic nation. The regions in question, Kuci and Upper Reka, both are ethnically "border zones" -- Upper Reka is Albanian speaking and Orthodox with some divided loyalties while Kuci is a place that today is divided between Montenegrin and Serbian identities but has a mixed background that does involve descent from some Albanian tribes and using some Albanian speech well into the 20th century, long after Migjeni's progenitors lived there. Thus, in summary, the grounds for his "Serbian origins" in the supposedly academic sources for it are rather weak -- they assume his native language was Serbian merely because his family was Orthodox and on only his father's side, his father's parents being from places where Slavs and Albanians lived. His mother, of course, was from Kavaja, smack in the middle of Albania with basically zero Slavs (so what language did Mami speak to baby Millosh in? It's not hard to guess...), which is conveniently just forgotten. Yes this is OR on my part, it doesn't go on the page, but while his family's commentary is not the be-all end-all, the sources on the other side are also quite weak. --Calthinus (talk) 17:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, Calthinus. Those sources there just say that he had Serb origin and that his first language was Serbo-Croatian. They do not elaborate much further than that. On the other hand, Angjelina Luarasi has written an entire book on Migjeni, and has dedicated several pages to his background. Since she has given more details, the content based on her book is longer in the article than the content based on sources that do not focus on Migjeni. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:20, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

(outdent) Can someone provide a link to Angjelina's book? Khirurg (talk) 00:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The book is not online, though you can seek to buy a copy if you wish. The book is that [2] (it has been reprinted at least once again in 2003, but likely later again). Or you can read a review of the book in a newspaper, where there is also a summary of Angjelina's elaboration on Migjeni's origin. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Migjeni ka lindur me 30.09.1909

Migjeni ka lindur me 30.09.1909 92.88.170.193 (talk) 12:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)