Talk:Miguel Ángel (footballer, born 1947)
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Requested move
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Rename both. There is a clear consensus that the footballer is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and that the disambiguation page should be moved. There was no agreement about which title to use for he article on the footballer, but since the objections to the use of the maternal name appear to be more strongly founded in policy than those to the year of birth, I will move the that article to Miguel Ángel González (footballer, born 1947). -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:56, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- Miguel Ángel González → Miguel Ángel González Suárez
- Miguel Ángel González (disambiguation) → Miguel Ángel González
– The footballer Miguel Ángel González isn't more important that other people named Miguel Ángel González (disambiguation) Vivaelcelta {talk · contributions} 18:25, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support, especially since WP:NATURAL disambiguation is available. Red Slash 03:09, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Mild oppose - sorry Vivaelcelta, personally I'm in favour of use of maternal names but the problem is that English sources don't use the maternal name, and en.wp doesn't use WP:NATURAL for Spanish bios since use of maternal names isn't WP:NATURAL in English. Clemente Angelo Lisi A History of the World Cup, 1930-2010 2011 Page 149 has "... then wiggled through two defenders before unleashing a potent shot that beat goalkeeper Miguel Angel Gonzalez.", no maternal name. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Incidentally, what is WP:FOOTBALL guideline here (footballer) (football goalkeeper) or (goalkeeper)? all 3 seem to be in use for goalkeepers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- It would definitely be Miguel Ángel González (footballer), although in this case, further disambiguation is needed. FOOTY strongly avoids disambiguation by position, since positions can be fluid, although less so with goalkeepers. But I could see (goalkeeper) being functional if, say, we had another footballer with the same nationality, name, and birth year. (football goalkeeper) is gratuitous unless there were, say, an ice hockey goalkeeper with the same name (and still no better way to disambiguate). If you're curious, this is a relatively recent discussion on the issue. --BDD (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Then
support Miguel Ángel González (footballer)(Miguel Ángel (miˈɣelˈaŋxel) is a double-barreled first name like Michelangelo Albertazzi, hence the paternal surname González should not be removed. A History of the World Cup, 1930-2010 above demonstrates that he is not known by the mononym "Miguel Ángel" despite what the article lead incorrectly says. oppose moving to mononym) In ictu oculi (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2014 (UTC)- I can live with the surname, but that title is ambiguous with Miguel Ángel González (Argentine footballer). Miguel Ángel González (Spanish footballer) wouldn't work either due to Migue, another Spanish footballer named Miguel Ángel González. Hence my recommendation for birth year, which is usually good to avoid. Miguel Ángel (Spanish footballer born 1947) would be more informative but less concise. --BDD (talk) 18:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Then
support move to Miguel Ángel González (goalkeeper)In ictu oculi (talk) 19:01, 28 January 2014 (UTC)- Correction support Miguel Ángel González (footballer, born 1947) per GiantSnowman In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Then
- I can live with the surname, but that title is ambiguous with Miguel Ángel González (Argentine footballer). Miguel Ángel González (Spanish footballer) wouldn't work either due to Migue, another Spanish footballer named Miguel Ángel González. Hence my recommendation for birth year, which is usually good to avoid. Miguel Ángel (Spanish footballer born 1947) would be more informative but less concise. --BDD (talk) 18:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Then
- It would definitely be Miguel Ángel González (footballer), although in this case, further disambiguation is needed. FOOTY strongly avoids disambiguation by position, since positions can be fluid, although less so with goalkeepers. But I could see (goalkeeper) being functional if, say, we had another footballer with the same nationality, name, and birth year. (football goalkeeper) is gratuitous unless there were, say, an ice hockey goalkeeper with the same name (and still no better way to disambiguate). If you're curious, this is a relatively recent discussion on the issue. --BDD (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Incidentally, what is WP:FOOTBALL guideline here (footballer) (football goalkeeper) or (goalkeeper)? all 3 seem to be in use for goalkeepers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose the first, support the second. There indeed appears to be no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but move to Miguel Ángel (footballer born 1947) for this title per WP:COMMONNAME. Red Slash, are you familiar with Spanish naming customs? Adding a maternal surname for disambiguation purposes is analogous to doing so with middle names (i.e., "Adding middle names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised."). --BDD (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Quite familiar, BDD, and in fact overly familiar, it seems. I guess perhaps I'm ignorant of an English-speaking penchant for ignoring maternal surnames? Even Real Madrid's website, which has no motivation to naturally disambiguate, puts up his full name. [1] Everything Google and Bing give me is either trivial or in Spanish (or even other languages). As it's second nature to naturally disambiguate by maternal surname in Spanish, could it be I'm overestimating English-language acceptance of them? Red Slash 23:56, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hm, right you are, and I'm surprised to see that the Spanish Wikipedia uses his full name for the title. Still, I'm concerned that unless the maternal surname is usually used in other sources, it's inclusion will not advance, and perhaps harm, recognizability. If more sources follow the Real Madrid website's practice, the full name may be a worthwhile option. --BDD (talk) 00:36, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Quite familiar, BDD, and in fact overly familiar, it seems. I guess perhaps I'm ignorant of an English-speaking penchant for ignoring maternal surnames? Even Real Madrid's website, which has no motivation to naturally disambiguate, puts up his full name. [1] Everything Google and Bing give me is either trivial or in Spanish (or even other languages). As it's second nature to naturally disambiguate by maternal surname in Spanish, could it be I'm overestimating English-language acceptance of them? Red Slash 23:56, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - date of birth is much preferred over nationality when it comes to disambiguating footballers, seeing as nationality in football can change. See "Players who have been capped by more than one country" as well as Category:Dual internationalists (football). Alfredo Di Stéfano played for 3 countries! GiantSnowman 19:40, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- That's unusual in the modern era, however. And for all those unusual cases there are many, many more footballers who only ever represented one country, or whose nationality is otherwise not in question. Centering naming policy over these exceptions is, IMO, misguided. Birth years are more likely to be [sought]... than to already [be known]. Indeed, nationality is almost always the go-to way of disambiguating two different people with the same name and occupation. Sometimes you need to go further, and this is one of those cases. Incidentally, I forgot WP:NCPDAB now prescribes a comma before "born," so I've modified my suggestion to Miguel Ángel (footballer, born 1947), or Miguel Ángel González (footballer, born 1947), or whatever. --BDD (talk) 20:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- But it's not, in fact it happens all the time. e.g. Moses Ashikodi played for England youth and Antigua senior; Dean Bouzanis played for Australia youth, then Greece youth, then Australia youth again; Ricky Shakes has played senior international football for both Trinidad and Grenada; Diego Costa has played senior international football for Brazil but has recently announced his intention to switch to Spain. I could go on... GiantSnowman 12:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Senior affiliation is always going to trump youth; that's pretty self evident. And again, these people are the exceptions. For each such one you could name, I could probably name about ten whose nationality isn't in doubt. --BDD (talk) 17:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- You're ignoring the large point - nationality in football changes for many players - are you going to keep on moving articles every time this happens? Three times for Bouzanis, three times for Shakes...therefore disambiguating by nationality is poor. Year of birth never changes... GiantSnowman 18:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- We can't be mistaken about birth years? Besides, Ashikodi, Bouzanis, and Shakes have never had to move. Even in the smaller set of footballers whose nationality has changed, only an even smaller set will need further disambiguation, and an even smaller set of those will have other footballers to disambiguate against. You're talking about having a tiny minority of pages drive naming policy. --BDD (talk) 20:06, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- No, there is existing community consensus at WT:FOOTBALL for this. GiantSnowman 13:41, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- We can't be mistaken about birth years? Besides, Ashikodi, Bouzanis, and Shakes have never had to move. Even in the smaller set of footballers whose nationality has changed, only an even smaller set will need further disambiguation, and an even smaller set of those will have other footballers to disambiguate against. You're talking about having a tiny minority of pages drive naming policy. --BDD (talk) 20:06, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- You're ignoring the large point - nationality in football changes for many players - are you going to keep on moving articles every time this happens? Three times for Bouzanis, three times for Shakes...therefore disambiguating by nationality is poor. Year of birth never changes... GiantSnowman 18:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Senior affiliation is always going to trump youth; that's pretty self evident. And again, these people are the exceptions. For each such one you could name, I could probably name about ten whose nationality isn't in doubt. --BDD (talk) 17:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- But it's not, in fact it happens all the time. e.g. Moses Ashikodi played for England youth and Antigua senior; Dean Bouzanis played for Australia youth, then Greece youth, then Australia youth again; Ricky Shakes has played senior international football for both Trinidad and Grenada; Diego Costa has played senior international football for Brazil but has recently announced his intention to switch to Spain. I could go on... GiantSnowman 12:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- That's unusual in the modern era, however. And for all those unusual cases there are many, many more footballers who only ever represented one country, or whose nationality is otherwise not in question. Centering naming policy over these exceptions is, IMO, misguided. Birth years are more likely to be [sought]... than to already [be known]. Indeed, nationality is almost always the go-to way of disambiguating two different people with the same name and occupation. Sometimes you need to go further, and this is one of those cases. Incidentally, I forgot WP:NCPDAB now prescribes a comma before "born," so I've modified my suggestion to Miguel Ángel (footballer, born 1947), or Miguel Ángel González (footballer, born 1947), or whatever. --BDD (talk) 20:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
External links modified
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