Talk:Miguel S. Loayza
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Arawoke in topic Be consistency with details in Peruvian Amazon Company article
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Be consistency with details in Peruvian Amazon Company article
edit@Arawoke: This article ought to be consist with the biographic details about Miguel S. Loayza in the Peruvian Amazon Company article, as I see it as a biographic sub-article about that particular person. It should focus on being a biography of the subject person named in the title and should not be a re-telling the story of Peruvian Amazon Company in a different way. The way this article reads at the moment it sounds like Loayza was the company manager, rather than merely managing a branch of the company in one regional of the country. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for the feedback! My notes are not as organized for Loayza compared to other topics I’ve annotated. Also, the main sources I have relating to Loayza focus on Hardenburg’s experience with Miguel, or the source is in Spanish which I’m not fluent in. The overlap is due to 2-3 other sources on topic get their information about Loayza from Hardenburg. I want to read more of what Roger Casement has to say on Loayza but hes only mentioned a few times in the report & diary. I’m going to slowly start picking and hunting for extra information towards the liquidation. I know what led the liquidation and downfall, which was mostly the price of rubber dropping from $3~ To .73 cents, but I’m not as familiar with Loayza’s actions between 1910-1914. The judge Valcarcel has more information on the time that I’ll check out soon Arawoke (talk) 11:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Updated the content, if you read through the article again I would appreciate more feedback or pointers please! Any questions that should be further answered or clarified? Thank you regardless. Arawoke (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Arawoke: Starting with the lead section, what goes into the lead section needs to be an accessible overview, or summary, of the subject. Everything appearing in the lead should be a summary of what appears in the body of the article. Also, what appears in the lead should reflect the most relevant and important aspects of the article in relation to the subject. The opening paragraph should focus on what is relevant to Loayza, and focus on his claim to fame, rather than be all about what happened to the wider organisation he was a part of. I don't think your changes to the lead are an improvement, because the revisions do not address the original claim that both Saldaña Rocca and Roger Casement accused Loayza of being a notorious criminal involved in a notable crime. What I wanted to see was that this accusation be included in and expanded upon in the body of the article. What the latest changes have done is muddy the water by removing important information and introducing irrelevant information. What does it matter that 18 people were accused of "atrocious" crimes and 237 arrest warrants were issued if Loayza escaped justice. It is important to only explain "What" Loayza's role was in the Putumayo genocide and "How" it was that he escaped justice, despite accusations of criminality. You also need to demonstrate that Loayza is notable for more than his role in the Putumayo genocide. I think the information is there, but it is buried in off-topic material. Lastly, please remember that this article is a biography, so it should have a chronoloical outline of what happened in Loayza's life; this article shouldn't try to retell the story of the whole Putumayo genocide and the Peruvian Amazon Company. This is a matter of giving due weight to the biographic material and limiting other material to be sufficient to orient readers who know nothing about the subject. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- The additions went towards a few things. There should have been more content that wasn’t focused on Hardenburgs run in with Loayza. Loayza is central to Hardenburgs story, as he was the official credited with the last three Colombian settlements being destroyed. I’m probably painting too broad of a picture with that event and need to limit it to Loayza’s involvement. Towards muddying the bio with more company information: the information should be limited to El Encantos operations. Loayza was the main manager of El Encanto. I also probably need to clarify that Loayza was the main organizer of the forced migration. Julio Arana is mentioned but the sources I have for reference give more credit to Loayza. The relevance towards the 18 people mentioned in the criminal petition, is that it’s the only source I have that gives the crimes he would have been charged with. The warrants are not digital documents and I have no way to find them or what they said on Loayza. The best source I have towards what he was criminally indicted with is the mention of Roccas petition. I can find a few sources that mention he was wanted for arrest but not for what. I feel Loayza’s exploitation of the natives after the Putumayo genocide qualifies him on relevance. Loayza credits himself with Julio Arana as being the two people who did the most to build Iquitos: that being via rubber profits. I’m not sure how to incorporate that thought from him or if it should be included. Once again thank you very much for the feedback. Currently on mobile but I will message you once your recommendations have been updated towards.
- Does Loayza’s involvement at El Encanto need to be elaborated on or limited upon? As well as a description of operations at El Encanto; which I included in the last update. Clarifications can be made to help give due diligence here Arawoke (talk) 01:17, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Arawoke: This article is a biography about Miguel S. Loayza. That means you need to answer the "Who", "What", "When", "Where", and "Why" questions that readers have about this person. The article should answer questions like:
- Who was Miguel S. Loayza? (And why is he notable enough to have a Wikipedia article?)
- What did he do? or, What is he most notable for doing? As well as other things he also did.
- When did he do it?
- Where did he do it?
- Why did he do it?
- You might also want to answer:
- When and Where was he born, (or active,) and When and Where did he die? As well as provide some additional detail about his early life, such as parents, birth, education and other significant details about his family and personal life, where this is known.
- This is the place to tell Loayza's story, so focus on him. Concerning El Encanto, answer the same questions above with the focus on what Loayza did and his known role and involvement in the El Encanto operations. The place for explaining and describing the overall El Encanto operation is in the Peruvian Amazon Company article, not this one. Thus elaborate on what Loayza did, but limit explaining what others in the Peruvian Amazon Company did, if Loayza was not involved with instigating or reacting to whatever happened. I realise that this may require a complete mindset change and rethink about the article, and you may find you need to rewrite it substantially. The main reason for having this article is to expand on the biographic details about Miguel S. Loayza in the Peruvian Amazon Company article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- I've had a lot of trouble finding official documents for his birth or death. I'm assuming this is due to record keeping in the areas those places occurred. I thought I found an ancestry website link for Miguel's brother Carlos, but it was another Carlos Loayza born in the same time period. Discrepancies in how his name is spelled via "Miguel S. Loayza" "Senor Loayza" or "Miguel Loayza" (another famous person has this name) limit what documents show up. At times I've found the Loayza name referring to Miguel misspelled, but I have truly tried to figure out DOB, DOD, with no success as well as figuring out his father and mothers name. You've provided great notes to refer back on to, and I likely will be rewriting a decent bit. I can't find any documents that refer to Loayza after he leaves the Ampiyacu basin or any certificates from the time period. Likely, anything relating to that time period is going to be unpublished and inaccessible to reference. I found reference to an interview by someone named Roger Rumrrill who mentioned Loayza was alive in his nineties but I can't find this interview by Rumrrill. Only Rumrrill describing the experience. Arawoke (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Arawoke: Locating supporting documents for a date of birth is challenging at the best of times and even reputable sources can get these dates wrong. Additionally, people might use a different name than is on their birth record. If you cannot locate documentation for exact dates of birth and death, then go with what you do know and have information for. In the absence of exact dates of birth and death, approximate dates can be estimated, given a known age, or estimate, at a particular point in time. If Loayza was known to be alive in his nineties, at 1960, say, then he would have been born circa 1870, perhaps earlier, so an approximate birth date of "c.1870" would be a useful placeholder. Alternatively, the years over which he was know to be alive and active could be expressed as the period he was "floruit", or flourished, such as "fl. 1903-1960". Be prepared to point out what you do not know, by saying, for example, "Little is known of Loayza early life, prior to him joining the company sometime between 1890 and 1903." Also, compare this biography with Armando Normand, which I notice you also wrote; while the exact content might be different the two biographies should have a similar phrasing, structure and layout. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think and I hope that recent edits have answered a lot of questions here. Your feedback has been a great help and thank you for taking the time to deal with this subject material, as well as reading Normand's biography. I think the current information should be biographically relevant to Loayza, but I see potential for "fluff" information. For certain sections (name those if you don't mind) is adding clarification or removing clarification necessary? Arawoke (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Arawoke: Locating supporting documents for a date of birth is challenging at the best of times and even reputable sources can get these dates wrong. Additionally, people might use a different name than is on their birth record. If you cannot locate documentation for exact dates of birth and death, then go with what you do know and have information for. In the absence of exact dates of birth and death, approximate dates can be estimated, given a known age, or estimate, at a particular point in time. If Loayza was known to be alive in his nineties, at 1960, say, then he would have been born circa 1870, perhaps earlier, so an approximate birth date of "c.1870" would be a useful placeholder. Alternatively, the years over which he was know to be alive and active could be expressed as the period he was "floruit", or flourished, such as "fl. 1903-1960". Be prepared to point out what you do not know, by saying, for example, "Little is known of Loayza early life, prior to him joining the company sometime between 1890 and 1903." Also, compare this biography with Armando Normand, which I notice you also wrote; while the exact content might be different the two biographies should have a similar phrasing, structure and layout. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- I've had a lot of trouble finding official documents for his birth or death. I'm assuming this is due to record keeping in the areas those places occurred. I thought I found an ancestry website link for Miguel's brother Carlos, but it was another Carlos Loayza born in the same time period. Discrepancies in how his name is spelled via "Miguel S. Loayza" "Senor Loayza" or "Miguel Loayza" (another famous person has this name) limit what documents show up. At times I've found the Loayza name referring to Miguel misspelled, but I have truly tried to figure out DOB, DOD, with no success as well as figuring out his father and mothers name. You've provided great notes to refer back on to, and I likely will be rewriting a decent bit. I can't find any documents that refer to Loayza after he leaves the Ampiyacu basin or any certificates from the time period. Likely, anything relating to that time period is going to be unpublished and inaccessible to reference. I found reference to an interview by someone named Roger Rumrrill who mentioned Loayza was alive in his nineties but I can't find this interview by Rumrrill. Only Rumrrill describing the experience. Arawoke (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Arawoke: This article is a biography about Miguel S. Loayza. That means you need to answer the "Who", "What", "When", "Where", and "Why" questions that readers have about this person. The article should answer questions like:
- @Arawoke: Starting with the lead section, what goes into the lead section needs to be an accessible overview, or summary, of the subject. Everything appearing in the lead should be a summary of what appears in the body of the article. Also, what appears in the lead should reflect the most relevant and important aspects of the article in relation to the subject. The opening paragraph should focus on what is relevant to Loayza, and focus on his claim to fame, rather than be all about what happened to the wider organisation he was a part of. I don't think your changes to the lead are an improvement, because the revisions do not address the original claim that both Saldaña Rocca and Roger Casement accused Loayza of being a notorious criminal involved in a notable crime. What I wanted to see was that this accusation be included in and expanded upon in the body of the article. What the latest changes have done is muddy the water by removing important information and introducing irrelevant information. What does it matter that 18 people were accused of "atrocious" crimes and 237 arrest warrants were issued if Loayza escaped justice. It is important to only explain "What" Loayza's role was in the Putumayo genocide and "How" it was that he escaped justice, despite accusations of criminality. You also need to demonstrate that Loayza is notable for more than his role in the Putumayo genocide. I think the information is there, but it is buried in off-topic material. Lastly, please remember that this article is a biography, so it should have a chronoloical outline of what happened in Loayza's life; this article shouldn't try to retell the story of the whole Putumayo genocide and the Peruvian Amazon Company. This is a matter of giving due weight to the biographic material and limiting other material to be sufficient to orient readers who know nothing about the subject. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)