Talk:Milan Ivanović

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Requested move 3 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

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Milan Ivanović → Milan Ivanovic – Australian association football retired player, now coach. Incorrect use of the letter "ć". Milan is an Australian and this letter does not exist in the English alphabet. Simione001 (talk) 05:47, 3 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 04:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:35, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

This person was born in Serbia. The spelling of a person's name doesn't change just because they work in another country (and plenty of words in English, especially names, use diacritics). --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:35, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment - He doesn't only work in Australia, he lives in Australia and has done so for some 30 years now. Simione001 (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

The spelling of a person's name doesn't change just because they work in another country isn't necessarily true. WP:DIACRITICS advises their use in articles based on how the name appears in reliable sources. The article Wu Chia-ching was moved to Wu Jia-qing in 2011, when the subject moved to China and the romanization of his name began appearing in sources with a Hanyu Pinyin-influenced spelling, rather than the Wade–Giles romanization typical of people born in Taiwan. José Canseco was moved to Jose Canseco on a MOS:ID basis (citing a self-published source) in 2009. Whether or not diacritics should be removed, retained or added seems best settled by a comparison of reliable sources. Vycl1994 (talk) 16:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose no such rule on entering Australia In ictu oculi (talk) 21:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support + Additional info - In Australia he is commonly referred to as Milan Ivanovic without diacritic, WP:COMMONNAME applies. Again, the vast majority of news article or webpages in general spells his name without using diacritic. He is Australian and has represented Australia in sport on several occasions. Simione001 (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Furthermore - Upon investigation, the Australian government Department of Home Affairs does not issue documents (such as citizenship or birth certificates) with diacritic. All names may only contain standard English alphabetic characters, that is 'a' to 'z' or 'A' to 'Z'. Simione001 (talk) 23:49, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

And Ana Ivanovic? Simione001, if we're going to be consistent, shouldn't the Serbian be at a Serbian name and the naturalized Australian at an Australian name? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:02, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what you mean and I'm not familiar with the previous discussion in relation to Ana Ivanovic so I cant comment on that specifically but in English it's spelt Ivanovic without using diacritic as it would would appear in most news articles. On her Croatian wikipedia page [1] it's spelt Ivanović which I have no problem with. Anyway, this is problem not the place to discuss Ana Ivanovic. Simione001 (talk) 01:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

It was just to see where the subject is heading, and the answer "but in English it's spelt Ivanovic" tells me there's a misunderstanding about font limitations behind these moves. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 09:03, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per In ictu oculi. GiantSnowman 09:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment - @GiantSnowman: Multiple sources found spelling his name without the use of diacritics. [2][3][4][5][6] Simione001 (talk) 22:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose this move for various reasons. Rovingrobert (talk) 12:40, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support - the oppose !votes in this discussion don't really stack up, and mostly seem to be based on personal preference for diacritics. All the evidence presented suggests that there are virtually no English sources calling him Milan Ivanović, so it would be unusual and a breach of WP:COMMONNAME to style him otherwise. This includes sources such as this one, which routinely put diacritics on other player names but to not put one on Ivanovic. And the fact that he has lived in Australia for 30 years is of course relevant, as it makes him basically a native of an English-speaking country. There doesn't seem to be evidence one way or the other on his personal preference in this matter so we might as well defer to the sources in this. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose It doesn't matter what ex-Yug player we're discussing, the lack of a diacritic will always be a problem since it's difficult to form on an English keyboard, so it's not a WP:COMMONNAME. I think the [7] Serbian source should hold here, especially since Serbian Cyrillic is a straight transliteration, and his name in Serbian is spelled with the ć. SportingFlyer T·C 08:18, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose This is just ridiculous. Yes, he played for the Australia national soccer team and naturalized for Australia citizenship, but that doesn't mean that his name is "English" or "Australian". He was born in Serbia, raised in Serbia, and his father had a diacritic in his last name. That is the legal name on his birth certificate, and driver's license, etc. Changing it for a minor inconvenience is really dumb. KingSkyLord (talk) 12:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.