Talk:Military circles of Thailand

Military provinces vs circles

I would like to add a note here that the term "มณฑล" in Thai is a loneword from Pali. The terms refers to a circle or enclosure, according to the royal society of Thailand. However, the same term also refers to the province in some countries, including current China and Siam (now Thailand). In administrative context (like this article), the term "มณฑล" should not be translated to "circle", but it should be translated to either "county" or "province".

Before 2015, there are two levels of military organisation in Thailand: Military Province มณฑลทหารบก and Military county จังหวัดทหารบก. Today there is only one level: military province.

I, therefore, believe that the term "military circle" is completely misleading and incorrect (despite being "official"). It should be "county" or "province" instead.

Ref: Royal Society of Thailand's Official Dictionary
See also: Monthon -- Char au (talk) 15:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Your reason for avoiding "military circle" is that it's misleading and incorrect despite being official, yet that would seem to be your own original assessment, and your own translation cannot take precedence over the actual, official term, as it would constitute WP:original research. Even if it might be potentially confusing to readers unfamiliar with the topic (which I don't really think is likely), it's the article's job to explain the term and correct their understanding, using the name most commonly used by reliable sources, per WP:COMMONNAME.

That said, "military circle" doesn't appear to be correct official term either. The official translation for มณฑลทหารบก appears to be "military district", according to this document. There are many more older book sources that use military circle, though, so there still isn't a compelling case to move away from that. --Paul_012 (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

According to the Royal Society of Thailand's official dictionary, the term "มณฑล" has a following definition:

(๑) [มนทน] น. วง เช่น สุริยมณฑล คือ วงรอบดวงอาทิตย์ จันทรมณฑล คือ วงรอบดวงจันทร์, บริเวณ เช่น มณฑลพิธี, เขตปกครองที่แบ่งออกเป็นส่วนใหญ่ ๆ (ป., ส.). = Circle; sphere (such as heliosphere, selenosphere); areas; administrative areas (such as states, provinces, counties, prefectures).

(๒) น. พระแท่นที่วงด้ายสายสิญจน์ เรียกว่า พระแท่นมณฑล. (ป., ส.). = an altar enclosed by a cotton thread

มณฑลเทศาภิบาล (เลิก) น. เขตการปกครองในระบบเทศาภิบาล โดยการรวมเมืองตั้งแต่ ๒ เมืองขึ้นไปเป็นมณฑล มีข้าหลวงเทศาภิบาลที่ส่งไปจากกรุงเทพฯ เป็นผู้ปกครอง. = Administrative areas, or province, consisting of two or more cities or prefecture. It is administered by the lord lieutenant/governor sent from Bangkok.

This shows that the term "มณฑล" has several definitions in English, including circles, spheres, enclosures, provinces, counties, confederation and states. The choice of word, therefore, depends on the context in which the term is used. Circles are certainly unreasonable in public administration context. According to the Oxford Dictionary and other reliable English sources, the term circle does not refer to administrative areas whatsoever. District is therefore more plausible as it refers to administrative areas. Hoewever, the term "อำเภอ" is already translated into districts. If this article is named "military districts of Thailand", it will be more painfully confusing and unparallel to existing amphoes and khets!! If the term "อำเภอ" was translated into counties (like PR China), then "military districts" would be perfect.

In the current PR China, there are five levels of administration: province "省/มณฑล", prefecture "地/จังหวัด", county "县/อำเภอ", township "乡/ตำบล" and village "村/หมู่บ้าน". These are similar to the pre-2015 Thai military administrative division and pre-1932 civil administrative division. In certain countries, however, the term province means "จังหวัด" or even "ภาค", depeding on public administration experts in those countries.

General Chan-o-cha simply replaced all "จังหวัดทหารบก" by "มณฑลทหารบก" and numbered all of them without significantly altering the structure of "จังหวัดทหารบก". Most of them covers only one civil province "จังหวัด". Roles of "มณฑลทหารบก" are simply and technically a provincial-level administration of the RTAF. This is the reason why the term "province" is more accurate and suitable. I, however, think that if the article undergo significant revision (subject to sources), it might be titled "military divisions of Thailand" to cover all types of military organizations and formations.

Many of my foreign friends asked me for clarification when hearing the term "military circle"; I explained it is just a military administrative area, the circle is simply a blunt translation or mistranslation (due to wrong context being selected and due to the fact that "มณฑล" has many definitions). By the way, the Thai language shall prevail if there are any conflicts. The term "มณฑล" remains unchanged. -- Char au (talk) 13:52, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Char au: I agree that using the term "circle" is ridiculous and misleading, and somewhat old-fashioned (as people nowadays will surely raise their eyebrows when seeing such a term). But, to make a long story short, that's how it is officially called, and a user-invented term is not to be used according to WP:FORUM. So, this article should continue to be titled "circle", and I'm going to have it renamed back to "circle". FIY, they use the term "circle" because Rama VI told them so, according to this book. --YURi (talk) 00:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I do agree that the term is old-fashioned, misleading and questionable. I will retain it sparingly in the oncoming revision of this article. Note that some "military circles" refer to themselves as military districts, which is more reasonable according to public administration terminology. For instance, Military District 38.

As I work through the article the Royal Thai Army, I think this article should be titled "Military districts of Thailand" as the term districts are more reasonable. There must be a note that military districts do not correspond in size to civil districts. Another suitable names is Military divisions of Thailand (การจัดแบ่งการปกครองของกองทัพไทย), as this article also cover other types of subdivisions, like Army Regions ("Officially" Areas) and Naval Regions. --Char au (talk) 12:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 24 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

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Military provinces of Thailand → Military circles of Thailand – "Circle" is how they are called according to their official websites, such as 1, 2, etc. "Province" is a term invented by a Wikipedia user, Char au (talk · contribs), and is not acceptable according to WP:NOR. See the above discussion also for further information. --YURi (talk) 00:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

• Tentatively support, per my comments in the above section. Military circle appears to be the term most commonly used by reliable sources, per WP:COMMONNAME. The document I linked in the above section[1] suggests that it's no longer the official term, so military district might be an alternative, but more analysis of usage in sources is needed for that. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support: "Circle (administrative division)" is how monthon is officially called in English. The term is not only used on official websites of these military monthons (as provided above by the OP) but it is also used on other government websites and in academic papers and other English literature (such as this (page 39), this (page 145), this (page 45), this (page 106), etc), and even in other articles on Wikipedia (such as Phayap Army). Most importantly, WP:NOR prevents Wikipedia from containing terms and theories introduced by users themselves (like those currently seen on this article). --Miwako Sato (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.