Talk:Mingo

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Both articles have much valuable information. I recommend some minor changes:

P 1. line 5 - ... Conestoga (aka Susquehannock) of the Susquehanna River Valley ...

P 2. line 1 - ... some Cayuga people moved to the Ohio Valley region, where the Six Nations granted them land.

A delegation from the Seneca-Cayuga people of Oklahoma visited the Grand Council at Onondaga in New York about three decades ago. The chiefs I spoke to said that the language the delegates spoke was Cayuga. I have not visited the Seneca-Cayuga yet to verify all of the information.

[Wabizje] 16 April 2010 ---- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wabizje (talk • contribs) 21:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Merge with Honniasont

These two articles seem to discuss the same Native American tribe. Unless evidence is provided to the contrary, the two articles should be merged. Neelix (talk) 20:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I would strongly disagree. There are actually two distinct groups being discussed, though they are often confused. Euro-Americans during the 18th century used the term "Mingo" not usually as a designator of a specific, organized tribe, but to identify individuals or small bands of Native Americans of multiple Iroquois tribal affiliations, who lived outside of their N.Y. "Longhouse", or homeland, and who were not under the immediate control of the 6 Nations Confederacy, usually those specifically living in the Ohio Country. Thus Logan, who is sometimes called a Mingo, was actually a Cayuga, and with his brothers, signed treaties in Pennsylvania as such. It was the Colonial powers who usually designated these Natives as "Mingo", and not the Natives themselves. Even the term "Mingo" is a borrowed word, and not Iroquoian in origin. Nearly every well known Native identified in 18th documents as a "Mingo" can be shown to have been a member by birth of one of the Six Nations. These people are distinct from, (though on occasion may have intermarried with), the historical groups who were known as the Black or White Mingoe of the earlier period. There are those who claim to be the descendants of these earlier groups, but they are not a state or federally recognized tribal group. The Seneca/Cayuga Nation in O.K. are some of the direct descendants of the "Mingo" usually referred to in 18th century Colonial documents, most others are scattered among the remaining Hodenosaunee people. I think it serves Wiki best to leave a distinction between the two groups in place and not further the confusion between them by blending them into one. TruthBastion (talk) 19:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed text that is shown not to be applicable. Virginian Native Americans at the time called those beyond the Allegheny Mountains the phrase, "Messawomecke", "those beyond the mountains". Conaughy (talk) 09:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

According to the Maryland Encyclopedia Online, the Messawomeck were a distinct historic Iroquoian tribe in western Maryland. They need a separate article, not just a redirect here.--Parkwells (talk) 12:19, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I would love to see an article on Massawomeck too. There are a number of theories who they were. The one that says it was a Powhatan name for the Erie ie. "Black Minqua" is starting to look the most credible to me, but that's just my opinion. There's also other sourced opinions we could include. Primary sources are from pre-1650 Virginia, and would include John Smith, Henry Fleet, and Spelman, etc. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

There should be a separate article on the Massawomaeck..no one really know who they were so at the very least people looking for information on them should not be automatically redirected here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.242.102.242 (talk) 18:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The above information likewise seems to be discussing a particular group or groups of people who are not the people described in later 18th century Colonial documents as Mingo. Perhaps this information should be moved as well to the Honniasont entry so as not to confuse an earlier historic tribe sometimes called Mingo or Black Mingoes or Minqua, with the use of the generic term "Mingo"during the 18th century in the Ohio Country? TruthBastion (talk) 06:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Per this and the discussion at Logan, I added an accuracy tag. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The Onniasontke were not the Mingo and I agree the articles should not be merged; I think the tag should be removed now. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Language

I would suggest that the language section here be removed, possibly to the "Honniasont" page, as it appears to be discussing the language of that group, and not the people generally known during the 18th century as "Mingo". As stated above, and in the "History" section of the Mingo Wiki page, the historic, Ohio Country Mingo, were of diverse Iroquois cultural background. They had their own distinct languages, not a unified tongue. Mingo who were Seneca, likely spoke Seneca. Mingo who were Cayuga, Cayuga, etc... The Mingo Language entry paints a completely different, and innacurate, picture if it is discussing Mingo in general, and not the specific alleged descendants of one group of people descended from the earlier "Black Mingo". If anyone has proof that Logan, The White Mingo, or any other historic figure identified as a "Mingo" spoke an actual "Mingo" language, as opposed to their own known mother tongues, I would love to see it. Once removed, a more historically accurate entry can be made to replace it. TruthBastion (talk) 05:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I removed the language section I contributed as well as our university findings of late. This local study can be recopied to another article if found to be usefull. TruthBastion's comment about "ancient" Honniasont being different to late colonial "Mingo" is correct about some of the ancestors. This period saw a great amount of acculturation and assimilation in our valley do to varying reasons. Conaughy (talk) 00:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Fixed?

I believe most of the problems with "Mingo" have been fixed. The article still needs some clean up work. Should the disputed warning be removed? TruthBastion (talk) 01:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The State's Doctorite of forensic anthropology has told me to "hold-up" on publishing (my book on WV Native Americans). As far as I, Conaughy, is concerned the article has no disputes as it is or how it could be changed. What you said about the generalization of the term, Mingo, was already known and understood by myself and most others concerned. I have no susgestions concerning those "Mingo" studying the language and if it should even be mentioned in any other article, that's become their business and no longer mine. To quote those utilizing the language:

About Mingo-EGADS

Mingo-EGADS (Extensible Grammar and Dictionary System) is a hypermedia information system designed to describe the Mingo language, for reference by Mingo speakers, learners, and linguists. It is being written by Jordan Lachler, Thomas McElwain (U. Stockholm Department of Comparative Religion), and Sean M. Burke. Mingo-EGADS is in the development stages.

This material for the propagation of the Mingo language is prepared with the cooperation of all existing official Mingo organizations, but not under the auspices of any of them. It is intended for use in educational programs of all kinds, personal and organized, among the various Mingo and Mingo-related groups, as well as by individuals of Mingo descent or other interested persons. Although the material is in the public domain and may be used without direct permission of the authors, we would appreciate receiving notice for our records of any public use. Every effort has been made to respect the privacy of certain sources, and for this reason religiously sensitive material does not appear here, even when it is available in academic archives or publications. Those interested in such matter should approach their respective Longhouse representatives.

---

ThomasGMcElwain@gmail.com, 2008-11-23

http://www.mingolanguage.org/about.html

So, I don't know...Thank you for your considerations and as many on WIKI say, cheers Conaughy (talk) 07:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Might I ask who is the "State's Doctorite of forensic anthropology"? How might I contact them with questions? TruthBastion (talk) 20:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Yepper,
Archeology of the Great Kanawha Navigation" by Robert F. Maslowski, Archeologist, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (retired). A paper presented the Fifth World Archeology Conference, Washington, DC, June 2003 http://cwva.org/research_reports/kanawha_nav/kanawha_nav.html
A Presentation by Dr. Robert Maslowski: "Forensic Archaeology and the MIA Mission in Southeast Asia"
http://cwva.org/ cwva@verizon.net

I mean to stay clear of any terminolgy of (Modern Tribal) legal definitions...especially when it involves the Repatriation Act, the principles of Federal Law under NAGPRA. That's another reason I'll gladly remove anthing I've contributed because most of it is none of my business anyways, as Grandpa would have said it. Conaughy (talk) 20:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

TruthBastion, Sir, I was not going to further with this article. Considering some friends in the region of a different kind of so-called "Mingo descent", may I offer this quote in hopes that the term, Mingo, is as mentioned a broad term in meaning:

In"Friday 14.—Set out W 5 M to Muskingum a Town of the Wyendotts. The Land upon Elk's Eye Creek is in general very broken, the Bottoms narrow. The Wyendotts or little Mingoes are divided between the French and English, one-half of them adhere to the first, and the other half are firmly attached to the latter. The Town of Muskingum Consists of about one hundred Families. When We came within Sight of the Town, We perceived English Colours hoisted on the King's House, and at George Croghan's; upon enquiring the Reason I was informed that the French had lately taken several English Traders, and that Mr Croghan had ordered all the White Men to come into this Town, and had sent Expresses to the Traders of the lower Towns, and among the Pickweylinees; and the Indians had sent to their People to come to Council about it. Saturday 15 & Sunday 16.—Nothing remarkable happened." CHRISTOPHER GIST'S JOURNALS, First Journal, October, 31, 1750 to May 19, 1751. FOR THE HONORABLE ROBERT DINWIDDIE ESQUIRE, GOVERNOR & COMMANDER OF VIRGINIA.

I read a legal court case during the previous reply of people from a reservation in Oklahoma legal concerns. This reading "spooked me" as this was a case where the Cayuga/Seneca of Oklahoma who were concerned in reclaiming eastern lands. That transcript's terminology of the court's finding very north-east of our location consistantly referred to these as Mingo. No doubt, this is modern termonology used then within the legal courts of a greater distance from our region. I have no intentions of contempt to any modern Native American nationality politics nor any government's court, with great respect to them. As I mentioned, these matters are really none of my business and shall let it rest. Most respectfully yours, Conaughy (talk) 16:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mingo/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The reference to the word "mingwe" contained in this article is incorrect. The correct spelling is "mèngwe" and it is an Unami word. Unami is the name of the language spoken by the Lënape (Delaware) people. The correct definition of mèngwe (pronounced MEN-gway) is "penis". "Mèngwe" was a derogitory term for the Hodenosaunee (Iroquois) used by the Lënape. The proper term for the Hodenosaunee in the Lënape language is "Opanu" (pronounced oh-PAH-new). References: (Just a few of many) 1)A Lenape-English Dictionary (1888) by Brinton, Daniel G. and Anthony, Albert Seqaqkind.(ED). [ZEISBERGER, DAVID]. (from an anonymous manuscript found in the Moravian Church of Bethlehem, PA 2)Unami - The Language of the Lënape by Mèssochwen Tëme (cannot find) 3)The Delaware Indians - A History (1990) by C. A. Weslager 209.247.5.58 (talk) 21:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)Mèssochwen Tëme

Last edited at 21:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 00:08, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Derogatory term

Ohio History Central notes "The Seneca-Cayuga, also referred to as the Ohio Seneca or Ohio Cayuga, is an American Indian Tribe that settled in the Sandusky and Cayuga River regions of northeastern Ohio in the 1740s and 50s. The Seneca-Cayuga people were historically referred to by non-natives as the “Mingo,” a derogatory term that is considered offensive today."

Given that "Mingo" is "a derogatory term that is considered offensive today," should a page entitled "Mingo" just be about the settlers historically using this term, mainly as a derogatory term, and move the content about the Native peoples to a page entitled Seneca-Cayuga?

How is this kind of thing handled on Wikipedia to avoid unnecessarily using derogatory terms? Povipin (talk) 15:15, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

What river?

"The people who became known as Mingo migrated to the Ohio Country ALONG THE RIVER in the mid-eighteenth century, part of a movement of various Native American tribes away from European pressures to a region that had been sparsely populated for decades but controlled as a hunting ground by the Iroquois League of the Five Nations." 69.54.55.158 (talk) 17:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

History/Etymology?

- "The etymology of the name Mingo derives from the Delaware (Lenape) word, mingwe or Minque", but A.) Lenape doesn't have a "g" in their consonantal inventory and B.) the proper spelling according to the Lenape Talking Dictionary is "Menkwe", which refers to the Seneca people. [1] It is also an alternative name for the Susquehannock.

- "..as adapted from their Algonquian language, meaning "stealthy"" Again, it doesn't mean "stealthy". If it did, it would be similar to "kimuxwe" meaning "he walks quietly / stealthily".

- "The Mingo had a bad reputation and were sometimes called "Blue Mingo" or "Black Mingo" for their misdeeds." I assume "Black Mingo" is an odd spelling of "Black Minqua", which was a term used by the Dutch and Swedish for the Massawomeck and Erie people (specifically, the name of one of the Erie villages). I have yet to find anything that refers to "Blue Mingo" or "Blue Minqua".

Sources:

https://www.talk-lenape.org/detail?id=4630,

Massawomeck people

Erie people

IdiotToonz (talk) 02:02, 27 July 2024 (UTC)