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Contested neutrality
edit
I tried to overcome some extreme views. The article is written in a style similar to its sources, and they all are propaganda literature from the time of Communist Yugoslavia. What is written resembles the style typical of Macedonian historiography, which is far from any neutrality. Jingiby (talk) 14:33, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- Can you be more precise what is not NEUTRAL for you? You can edit the content of the text, if you have more reliable sources. All the books and his comrades describes all of the stated in the article. Same goes for the literature. There is nothing extreme. Maybe the sentence about the Macedonian language, but I will update it with 10 references if needed--Forbidden History (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yugoslav communist propaganda is not neutral POV. See also: Wikipedia:Advocacy; Wikipedia:Neutral point of view; Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Jingiby (talk) 18:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- As I said, which part belongs to Yugoslav communist propaganda? Be specific and let's sort it out. With your approach you might say that his name was not even Mirce Acev, because it can be communist propaganda? The whole article represents general views of his life and deed. He was a partisan that is what he lived and died because of it. The testimony of his death is of Bulgarian police forces (so therefore both sides are presented of the story). You cannot generalize things with saying "all these is just communist propaganda". You want to tell us that those things didn't happened? That's why you need to be more specific, which sentence or part is a propaganda (according to yourself)?--Forbidden History (talk) 18:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- Jingiby The language and it's alphabet are in constant process of transformation for every nation and alphabet. What do you want to prove with the document, that the language, that the letter was written three years before this document was non-existent? and that all the Macedonian people with only one document learned new language and alphabet at once? That is beyond any logic and understanding. By the way, Macedonia was inside the Serbian Kingdom till 1940, and the Macedonian people and language were considered as Serbian. And that is what occupiers do, assimilating the occupied nations and people. Same thing was done by Bulgaria over Macedonia from 1941-1944. Just to remind you, that the Bulgarian alphabet was also reconstrued in 1945, so how can you claim that Macedonian alphabet was Bulgarian when you switched it as well, conditioned by the needs of the people that spoke Bulgarian language? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Bulgarian_orthography. I mean really the machine they used for typing this alphabet report was probably of Bulgarian army and is that some kind of evidence that Macedonians were Bulgarians? Since you want to "serbinize" the Macedonian alphabet, can you please shows us the Serbian letters Ђ ђ and Ћ ћ in the Macedonian alphabet (and once again Macedonia was part of Serbian kingdom before Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia what alphabet do yo expect they used-A Bulgarian one?)? Can you show the Macedonian letter Ѕ in Serbian and Bulgarian alphabet? Can you show the letters Ќќ, Ѓѓ, in Serbian and Bulgarian alphabet? This is far from orthography and language dispute. This is chauvinistic approach to history and you need to be more careful for building such fabrications.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just to update you about the Macedonian alphabet and language. A fact that debunks your sources that are not relevant at all. It's one thing to claim that one language became official in 19145 and it is another thing to claim that it didn't existed. Whole Bulgarian views and pro-governmental historiographers are claiming that the language did not existed-but there is Koco Racin to prove you wrong. His poem До еден работник was written in Macedonian language and published in Zagreb in 1936. Following a complete book White Dawns in published in 1939. So, your sources and Bulgarian point of view of Macedonian language an history are not coping with the reality at that time. Therefore your sources are not relevant at all without taking into consideration the real facts from the field.--Forbidden History (talk) 06:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- This modern issue is not related to the article= Jingiby (talk) 06:29, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- It is related, because Bulgaria is still spreading that theory and lie about the Macedonian non-existent language, prior to 1945. Here is the image cover of Beli Mugri from 1939 (complete book written in non-existent language). Should I remind you on Krste Misirkov using the letter К' and Г' for Ќ and Ѓ since 1903? So, stop misinterpret the truth and facts from nationalistic sources that are not coping with the reality of the period they write for. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_%28book_cover%29.jpg Yes, you are right this is not article about the language itself, but you led this discussion in that direction. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but your knowledge on the subject is very insufficient. Jingiby (talk) 06:47, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- I can also say that for yourself. Till yesterday you were trying to present and defend the non-existence of the Macedonian language before 1945, now when sources are pointed out, I'm the one that doesn't have knowledge. Let the neutral admins decide whether there was or not Macedonian alphabet and language before 1945. Fair enough? --Forbidden History (talk) 06:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Jingiby, since Forbidden History has been blocked from editing and has lost his account i will be taking his role and you and i can discuss the neutrality of the article, before we start i want you to outline the issues in the neutrality so we can reach a well mannered compromise. I was orignally planning to remove the neutrality tag (since the talk had ended 3 years ago) but according to wikipedia i can't do that unless we've reached a compromise or a solution, i hope we can reach an agreement with this issue, thanks. Gurther (talk) 17:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
- I can also say that for yourself. Till yesterday you were trying to present and defend the non-existence of the Macedonian language before 1945, now when sources are pointed out, I'm the one that doesn't have knowledge. Let the neutral admins decide whether there was or not Macedonian alphabet and language before 1945. Fair enough? --Forbidden History (talk) 06:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but your knowledge on the subject is very insufficient. Jingiby (talk) 06:47, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- It is related, because Bulgaria is still spreading that theory and lie about the Macedonian non-existent language, prior to 1945. Here is the image cover of Beli Mugri from 1939 (complete book written in non-existent language). Should I remind you on Krste Misirkov using the letter К' and Г' for Ќ and Ѓ since 1903? So, stop misinterpret the truth and facts from nationalistic sources that are not coping with the reality of the period they write for. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8_%28book_cover%29.jpg Yes, you are right this is not article about the language itself, but you led this discussion in that direction. Thanks --Forbidden History (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- This modern issue is not related to the article= Jingiby (talk) 06:29, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Just to update you about the Macedonian alphabet and language. A fact that debunks your sources that are not relevant at all. It's one thing to claim that one language became official in 19145 and it is another thing to claim that it didn't existed. Whole Bulgarian views and pro-governmental historiographers are claiming that the language did not existed-but there is Koco Racin to prove you wrong. His poem До еден работник was written in Macedonian language and published in Zagreb in 1936. Following a complete book White Dawns in published in 1939. So, your sources and Bulgarian point of view of Macedonian language an history are not coping with the reality at that time. Therefore your sources are not relevant at all without taking into consideration the real facts from the field.--Forbidden History (talk) 06:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Jingiby The language and it's alphabet are in constant process of transformation for every nation and alphabet. What do you want to prove with the document, that the language, that the letter was written three years before this document was non-existent? and that all the Macedonian people with only one document learned new language and alphabet at once? That is beyond any logic and understanding. By the way, Macedonia was inside the Serbian Kingdom till 1940, and the Macedonian people and language were considered as Serbian. And that is what occupiers do, assimilating the occupied nations and people. Same thing was done by Bulgaria over Macedonia from 1941-1944. Just to remind you, that the Bulgarian alphabet was also reconstrued in 1945, so how can you claim that Macedonian alphabet was Bulgarian when you switched it as well, conditioned by the needs of the people that spoke Bulgarian language? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Bulgarian_orthography. I mean really the machine they used for typing this alphabet report was probably of Bulgarian army and is that some kind of evidence that Macedonians were Bulgarians? Since you want to "serbinize" the Macedonian alphabet, can you please shows us the Serbian letters Ђ ђ and Ћ ћ in the Macedonian alphabet (and once again Macedonia was part of Serbian kingdom before Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia what alphabet do yo expect they used-A Bulgarian one?)? Can you show the Macedonian letter Ѕ in Serbian and Bulgarian alphabet? Can you show the letters Ќќ, Ѓѓ, in Serbian and Bulgarian alphabet? This is far from orthography and language dispute. This is chauvinistic approach to history and you need to be more careful for building such fabrications.--Forbidden History (talk) 21:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- As I said, which part belongs to Yugoslav communist propaganda? Be specific and let's sort it out. With your approach you might say that his name was not even Mirce Acev, because it can be communist propaganda? The whole article represents general views of his life and deed. He was a partisan that is what he lived and died because of it. The testimony of his death is of Bulgarian police forces (so therefore both sides are presented of the story). You cannot generalize things with saying "all these is just communist propaganda". You want to tell us that those things didn't happened? That's why you need to be more specific, which sentence or part is a propaganda (according to yourself)?--Forbidden History (talk) 18:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yugoslav communist propaganda is not neutral POV. See also: Wikipedia:Advocacy; Wikipedia:Neutral point of view; Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Jingiby (talk) 18:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Проф. д-р Антони Стоилов и колектив, Крайно време е за сътрудничество. За езиковия спор, македонската литературна норма, Мисирков и възможностите за сътрудничество между езиковедите от Република Македония и Република България във В-к Култура - Брой 28 (2908), 21 юли 2017 г.
- ^ Стефан Дечев: Българските и македонски политици задминаха националните историци; списание Marginalia, 24.06.2019 г.
- ^ Кочев, Иван, Александров Иван, Документи за съчиняването на „македонския книжовен език", сп. Македонски преглед, Македонски научен институт, стр. 5-22; кн. 4. 1991 г.
- ^ When Blaze Koneski, the founder of the Macedonian standard language, as a young boy, returned to his Macedonian native village from the Serbian town where he went to school, he was ridiculed for his Serbianized language. Cornelis H. van Schooneveld, Linguarum: Series maior, Issue 20, Mouton., 1966, p. 295.
- ^ ...However this was not at all the case, as Koneski himself testifies. The use of the schwa is one of the most important points of dispute not only between Bulgarians and Macedonians, but also between Macedonians themselves – there are circles in Macedonia who in the beginning of the 1990s denounced its exclusion from the standard language as a hostile act of violent serbianization. For more see: Alexandra Ioannidou (Athens, Jena) Koneski, his successors and the peculiar narrative of a “late standardization” in the Balkans. in Romanica et Balcanica: Wolfgang Dahmen zum 65. Geburtstag, Volume 7 of Jenaer Beiträge zur Romanistik with Thede Kahl, Johannes Kramer and Elton Prifti as ed., Akademische Verlagsgemeinschaft München AVM, 2015, ISBN 3954770369, pp. 367-375.
- ^ Kronsteiner, Otto, Zerfall Jugoslawiens und die Zukunft der makedonischen Literatursprache: Der späte Fall von Glottotomie? in: Die slawischen Sprachen (1992) 29, 142-171.
Biography
editJingiby how can you list his uncle as Bulgarian revolutionary, when he never fought in ethnic Bulgaria nor it was starting a revolution in Bulgaria? He lived in Ottoman empire in ethnic Macedonia, not in Bulgaria. He even died in ethnic Macedonia under Ottoman empire. --Forbidden History (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please do not change the nationality of the Ilinden revolutionaries. In all articles here, they are described as Bulgarians since years. If you insist to change that, then initiate a general discussion and gain a consensus. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 05:47, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't changed your nationality, I just added mine. In all articles they are described as Bulgarians because of misinterpretation of the truth and history by the Bulgarian side. You simply cannot claim anyone that took a gun and rifle to fight against the Ottomans that he is of Bulgarian origin. You simply can't, that is not Neutral point of view, either! As I said, to call someone Bulgarian revolutionary that person needs to start and be part of revolution in Bulgaria. His uncles were part and started defending the Macedonian people in the borders of ethnic Macedonia under Ottoman Empire (outside Bulgaria, not even near to Bulgaria) and were part of Macedonian revolutionary movement to free Macedonia, since Bulgaria was already free. Reasoning like this you might as well say that Macedonian football player born in Australia, has Bulgarian origin, just because all the articles that are not neutral present his ancestors as Bulgarians? I mean Macedonia was 5 centuries under Ottoman empire and they don't call the Macedonians-Turks and Bulgaria didn't even ruled here for more than 10 years and you make all the people Bulgarians? How come? No book or reference gives you that right - it is basic principals of human rights.--Forbidden History (talk) 06:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a forum. Jingiby (talk) 06:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah,I know it isn't but obviously I need to find out sources and defend every day, every person of the Macedonian past history. Something that no other country is doing. --Forbidden History (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a forum. Jingiby (talk) 06:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't changed your nationality, I just added mine. In all articles they are described as Bulgarians because of misinterpretation of the truth and history by the Bulgarian side. You simply cannot claim anyone that took a gun and rifle to fight against the Ottomans that he is of Bulgarian origin. You simply can't, that is not Neutral point of view, either! As I said, to call someone Bulgarian revolutionary that person needs to start and be part of revolution in Bulgaria. His uncles were part and started defending the Macedonian people in the borders of ethnic Macedonia under Ottoman Empire (outside Bulgaria, not even near to Bulgaria) and were part of Macedonian revolutionary movement to free Macedonia, since Bulgaria was already free. Reasoning like this you might as well say that Macedonian football player born in Australia, has Bulgarian origin, just because all the articles that are not neutral present his ancestors as Bulgarians? I mean Macedonia was 5 centuries under Ottoman empire and they don't call the Macedonians-Turks and Bulgaria didn't even ruled here for more than 10 years and you make all the people Bulgarians? How come? No book or reference gives you that right - it is basic principals of human rights.--Forbidden History (talk) 06:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Letter
editJingibyStop changing the contents of the letter. He doesn't say IMRO in the letter but clearly Vancomihajlovists companies. Don't twist the facts. --Forbidden History (talk) 06:49, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- May we check that fact, please. Jingiby (talk) 06:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes read from 20th row till 25th row. And also please you show us where he is mentioning IMRO (VMRO)?--Forbidden History (talk) 07:02, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Arrest, torture and death
editAlso this part is not written in NPOV you have clear testimony from the Buglarian officers what happened, no one mentions suicide. he was more likely thown out of a window by the Bulgarian forces.--Forbidden History (talk) 06:56, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Stop changing the part about his death! There is clear testimony what ahppened and how he died. You cannot label that as Yugoslav communistic era. The words are of Bulgarian officers that tortured him. And by the way the other sources are saying that he was thrown out of a window and then presented as suicide, so reliability of your source (Bechev) is not quite accurate.--Forbidden History (talk) 07:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
- Can you also point out to which refferences Bechev knows how Mirce died? This is absurd what you are trying to do here. You want us to delete the official court testimony of the Bulgarian officers and to take Bechev's non supported theories of Mirce's death as relevant? --Forbidden History (talk) 07:48, 22 November 2020 (UTC)