Talk:Mirko Petrović-Njegoš/Archive 1

Archive 1

Vojvoda Mirko, a poet

Well, this is a news. I am really anxious to see this work as I have never heard about it. Any links?

Regardless, Mirko's legacy is that he won the one of the most important battles in Montenegrin history, not that he wrote some lyrics at home. It is like talking about Napoleon and mentioning his poems? If it weren't sad, it would have been funny.Momisan 10:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This page is full of lies but every time I try correcting them Im being accused of vandalism... .Sideshow Bob 9:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I invite you to pinpoint lies, say why are they incorrect and suggest how to correct them here. Cheers (AFAIC, mass removal, better known as blanking, is vandalism according to Wikipedia:Vandalism). Please keep in mind this in the future. Let's hear you out. --PaxEquilibrium 13:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Why Montenegrin language instead of Serbian?
• You are right about "Montenegrin" instead of plainly "Serb of Montenegro", correct that please
• Why did you delete the link to the Serbs of Montenegro article?
• Why did you remove the Serb-related category (Serbian poet only - you were right to delete "Serbian soldier")?

Explain these issues, and your edits will not be classified as vandalism. Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium 13:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

One by one...

• Ok,language issue is a bigger problem and discussions over it are not to be extended to this article
• All of the Petrovic dinasty rulers were Montenegrins,except in some occasions Nicholas I,whose pretensions on the throne of unified kingdom of Southern Slavs required him to declare as a Serb.The other case is Petar II Petrovic Njegos who was equalising terms "Serbdom" with "Orthodox Christianity",and thus calling all orthodox people Serbs.
• I didnt delete the whole link,if I had that was a mistake.But the list of famous Serbs in Montenegro is partially incorrect and needs revisement.
• Mirko Petrovic was a Montenegrin soldier,thus also a Montenegrin poet,because he was not connected to the Kingdom of Serbia in any direct way.
• Any eventual vandalism was not intentional,and it can be taken as a beginner's mistake.Cheers! ;)Sideshow Bob 20:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My head is about to explode. How can the population of Montenegro so willfully ignore all the evidence of the country's historical Serbdom? You can reject Serbdom, but you can't rewrite history to suit your modern political convictions.--estavisti 01:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The entire population isn't ignorant, just the people in the diaspora (not all, just the ones who rely on questionable sources for information, much like the rest of the ex-yu diaspora) and the ones that watch and read Milo's propaganda every day. Image how we'd end up if everybody read (and believed) Kurir and Press. Milo is no more than his old friend Milošević, although I find it amusing that the west upholds Milo as the bringer of freedom and democracy to the oppressed Montenegrins. Just wait until he gets kicked out of power or until some mafia boss decides to pay him a visit >:-p Хајдук Еру (Talk || Cont) 04:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Milo did resign from office... because of mobster blackmail... was that a joke or you really didn't know that? --PaxEquilibrium 21:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Pax, after a few discussions with you on similar history topic, I am getting an impression that you are either incredibly messy and disorganised in your arguments (which I doubt), or intentionally trying to muddy waters. Please response straight under the claim you are arguing against! Also, keep to the point of discussion, don't jump and change topic in the middle of conversation. That way, we can establish some facts. Now, I don't exactly see any sources that support the claim that Mirko Petrovic was a Serb. My family is, as you know, coming from katunska nahija (i.e "Proper Montenegro") just as Mirko Petrovic, and I can assure you, they are not exactly falling over themselves to hold a Serbian banner over there. Everyone in Montenegro knows who is Mirko Petrovic. If you didn't know, even the Podgorica's CBD is, among old Pogoricans, called "Mirkova Varos". Firstly, you made it to be primarily a POET (I don't know whether to laugh or cry), and you still have the audacity to claim that calling Mirko a Montenegrin is a "vandalism". It is pathetic.Momisan 12:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Momisan, I know that a large number today's Montenegrins have been brainwashed into not believing their forefathers were Serbs. Unlike you, I will actually refer to sources, and not say "everyone in my area agrees, so it's true". The subject of the article wrote the Јуначки споменик, right? So let's take a look at a few quotes from that work, shall we? Poče im se tugovati Dedo
Na valjanu srpsku Goru Crnu,
Da on više živovat' ne može
Od Srbalja od te Gore Crne,
Od sokola protopopa Luke
... Pa ih pita protopope Luka:
"Sad šta ćete, bule Đulekove!
Ali ćete sa mnom Gori Crnoj?
Al' ćete se natrag povratiti
Do Čengića prebijele kule,
E ću vi dat' dobre pratioce?
Nos' te vaše ruho svekoliko
I na grlu đerdane od zlata;
Jer adeta u Srbina nema,
Ko bi tursku bulu zarobio,
Srbin zulum učinit' joj neće,
...Otkako je nastala krajina,
Među našom srpskom Gorom Crnom,
Crnom Gorom i Hercegovinom,
Zulum viši nije postanuo
...I poslaše srpskoj Gori Crnoj
Na Cetinje Petroviću knezu.
...Al' se nagna pedeset momakah
Od valjane srpske Gore Crne,
...Za krst časni i vjeru hrišćansku,
I za slavu imena srpskoga.
Be aferim, moji sokolovi!
...Pošetalo jedno momče mlado
Od valjane srpske Gore Crne,
Po imenu Jovićević Joko;
Šeta momče preko Podgorice,
...Od Srbina Petrovića kneza,
On razjari mlade Crnogorce,
...Pije vino vojvoda Jovane,
U Banjane na visoku kulu;
Kod vojvode trista sokolovah
Od Banjanah i dvije Rudine
I valjane srpske Gore Crne;
...Progovara vojvoda Mašo:
"O glavari, moja braćo draga,
Čujete li tresku i grmljavu,
Oko naše srpske Gore Crne,
Osobeno u Hercegovini?
...Stade Miljan šićar dijeliti,
On dijeli ćurke i saruke,
Pa dijeli konje sedlenike
I s Turakah svijetlo oružje,
A izabra dvanaest sabaljah,
Te ih posla svome gospodaru
Na Cetinje Petroviću knjazu,
I posla mu list knjige bijele,
Sve mu kaže što je kod njih bilo,
I kako su Turke propratili.
Kada knjaza glasi dopadoše,
To je knjazu mnogo milo bilo,
Na Tablji mu pukoše lubarde,
Šemluk čini vojvodi Miljanu
I njegovu svakome vojniku;
Još ovako knjaže progovara:
"Be aferim, moj vojvodo pravi!
Kad znaš tako dočekati Turke,
Ti si Srbin, srpskoga imena
I od srpske krvi i plemena,
Zdravo bio sa svijem Srbima!"
...Tu pogibe ljuta Crnogorca:
Dv'je hiljade i dvije stotine,
Tri hiljade ima ranjenikah,
A Turakah četrdese't hiljadah,
Što ostade mrtva na gomile
Po granicam oko Gore Crne,
A ranjene ni brojiti neću;
A ostalu vojsku rašćeraše,
Na poštenje Srbi ostadoše.
Veseli se, srpska banovino!

Pretty conclusive as to author's identity, right? Unless you produce some actual sources, not original research among you and your mates, your fantasies aren't going into the article.--estavisti 13:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Pretty conclusive to any Montenegrin's identity prior to 1945, I'd say. If you wish to prove the point, you should go through all Montenegrin biography articles and replace "Montenegrin" with "Serb from Montenegro". My point is, the split and quarreling that occured for the last 15 (70) years should not be reflected to the articles, at least not in the way currently attempted. Yes, many Montenegrins from history were great Serb and Montenegrin patriots. Isn't it sufficient to say that he was a [[Montenegro|Montenegrin]] soldier, diplomat and poet? Yes, I'm annoyed by the analness for insistence of specifying people's ethnic affiliation in the lead paragraph even when it's largely irrelevant (see Zdravko Čolić), or moot (Ivo Andrić, Meša Selimović), or anachronistic (Marko Miljanov, Mirko Petrović Njegoš).

The pattern is quite frequent: once when a reasonable compromise is reached on the "main" article (Montenegrins in this case, see also Republic of Macedonia), the battle continues on peripheral articles (like this one, see also [1]). Plus, there emerge POV Forks like this one (hmm, I wonder whose idea it was...). Thus: "Serb from Montenegro" for a 19th century person is equally meaningful as "fish from water". While Mirko's or Miljanov's Serb patriotism should indeed be referenced in the article, it's equally fair to say that it was Montenegrin patriotism. The sad fact that "Serb patriotism" and "Montenegrin patriotism" are antonyms today does not affect the fact that they were synonyms in the past. Duja► 14:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, clearly he wasn't a Montenegrin patriot, not in the modern anti-Serb sense, as you yourself say. To put that would confusing and ambiguous. I agree it's sad the way things are now, but it's misleading to call him only a Montenegrin. As is noted in the main article, the word is ambiguous and the meaning is even being disputed. It's much more precise and clear to call him a Montnegrin Serb. To me and you, it's clear as day that 19th century "Montenegrin Serb" is like "swimming fish", but we must think of the English speakers who aren't acquiainted with the intracacies of Balkan politics. Also, I don't see why the "Serbs of ...." articles are a collection of POV forks. I was given the idea by Jews by country. Are those articles POV too? Lastly, I agree that sometimes ethnicity is given too much weight (Čolić being a Serb doesn't really affect his being a popstar), but for all these famous Montenegrin Serbs, their notability is intimately tied up with their being Serbs resisting the Ottomans. --estavisti 14:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we must think of the "English speakers who aren't acquainted with the intracacies of Balkan politics". Heck, those people don't (and shouldn't) care about intricacies of Balkan politics yet we blow it straight into their face in every single article, by invoking square and day-to-day-changing definitions of terms which should (and ought to) have been simple. You're trying to break up the modern Montenegrins (ethnic group) ties with their past in the same way that "Dukljani" attempt to break up the modern Serbs' (ethnic group) ties with that same past. We should not write history to accomodate for today's politic agendas. Was he from Montenegro? Yes. Did he have anything to do with Serbia? No, almost nothing, except that he fought for the union. Did he glorify Serbdom in his works? Yes, as noted in the article. Where to categorize him? To both categories, if there's no better idea. Background explained, now go on to write what did he do in his life. Duja► 15:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

About the "Serbs by country" series of articles: I find the idea silly; I also find Jews by country idea on the silly side, but it can be justified by Jewish specific and fairly isolated position. Even if it can be justified in the cases where ethnic group is a minority one, you'll get the clash right here on the Montenegrin case: separating history of Serbs in Montenegro (as I see is about to be written) from the country's very history is outright impossible. Sorry, that resembles me to the attempts to endorse the fringe SRS's Serb Montenegro idea (yes we have an article on that, too, to my surprise.) My opinion on that is that I wholeheartedly endorse Pancic's comment's in the last issue of Vreme. Duja► 15:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Duja, this guy lived to fight "the Turks". If the reader doesn't care about Balkan politics, he won't be reading this article. It's like saying we shouldn't write about crappy pop music on the Madonna article. Second, I'm not trying to break anyone's link with the past. However, some people want to have links with a history that exists only in their minds and not in reality. If they can't accept the historical record due to their own blind nationalism, then that's not my problem. Third, what does his connection with the state of Serbia, or lack of it, have to do with anything? The Serbian cultural area is about triple Central Serbia's area, so whether he was born in Serbia or not is totally irrelevant. Furthermore, Serbs are significantly different to their neighbours in the various contries, for no more reason that they consider themselves to make up a community. Finally, no one's seeking to seprate the Serbs from Montenegro, apart from the retards in the SRS who wouldn't know what patriotism is if it kicked them in the face. The whole emphasis on these guys being Serbs comes as a reaction to the attempt to rewrite history by some Montenegrins today. Also, I don't know why you seem to be trying to tar me with the SRS brush when nobody could think less of them than me (apologies if you're not). That was an OK article by the way, but Pančić and co. are not my cup of tea. --estavisti 16:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for associating you with SRS; that wasn't my intention. I meant to say, though, that insistence of separation of Montenegrins' and Serbs' past amounts to propagation of such ideas, even if unintentional.

The whole emphasis on these guys being Serbs comes as a reaction to the attempt to rewrite history by some Montenegrins today

You said it yourself far better than I was trying to say. My principal objection to this is don't do it, then: you're try to cure wrongdoing by another in retaliation. I am not endorsing Montenegrin attempts to rewrite history either, but the correct counteraction to that is not to put the word "Serb" to every goddam sentence in an attempt to Spread The Truth™. You have made yourself "acceptance the historical record due to their own blind nationalism" your problem. Duja► 17:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't express myself that well. Before Montenegrins=Serbs was assumed and the term "Montegrin" was used for simplicitly's sake. Take for example Todorovich/Dragnich - The Saga of Kosovo. In the preface, it simply says "Montenegrins are Serbs", just to get it out of the way for the rest of the book. However, that is no longer true. Many Montenegrins now hate Serbs, so it has to be made clear that these guys were Serbs, and Montenegrins only in a regional sense. I don't see why you're framing that as "retaliation", when it's simply adapting to the changing meaning of "Montengrin". Again, no one's trying to separate ethnic Montenegrin and ethnic Serb history. But if someone is Serb, why gloss over it just to be politically correct? Also, if I were such a horrific "nationalist" as you seem to be presenting me, I wouldn't be on such great terms with my Đukanović-supporting ethnic Montenegrin relatives. I'm simply interested in accuracy. It's sad to see that "spreading the truth" is apparently not acceptable to you. --estavisti 00:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Estavisti, while I was still living in Montenegro all you could hear in the media was Greater Serbian propaganda. Before the wars, during communism, the schools were largely, as you like to say, politically correct i.e you could not learn much about Montenegrin history at all. My identity, I took from my family and from the wider community I grew up with. It was passed down from the elders to us almost whispering, but, with a steel determination so that we know who we are and what our ancestors did for us. Njegos is greater than Christ in Montenegro not only because he was a great poet, but primarily because his books were written in people's language. The language we were robbed of and corrected from since we could remember. It was there, we could actually recite and read it in the school and no darn teacher could correct us. We just read it as it was written! And what a pleasure that was, believe me. That is the truth. I am not saying this as I think you will change your mind, I am happy if you just register it. All that was a result of a horribly harsh cultural Serbian opression my people were subjected to during 20th century. Is there anything worse than when someone wants to take your language and your history away from you and make it theirs? I actually don't think you can really understand what I am talking about if you haven't gone through the similar experience yourself. I do not hate Serbs, in fact I think they are quite fun to have around on a personal basis. It is actually almost incredible that such fine people came up with such a diabolic ideology as Greater Serbian and its Serbian Orthodox Church. Anyway, enough digression. I acknowledge that, if the quoted poem is authentic, it seams that Mirko was heavily influenced by the 19th century Serb nationalist ideology. I would agree with that statement somewhere in the text. Also, the term "Serb" is a moving target, in the 19th century, it was first a synonim with Eastern Orthodoxy, then it was extended over Muslims and Catholics. Then it changed again its meaning in the 20th century a few times and it has a different meaning now. Using it in a context you are using it, you are implyig that he was a Serb in the present meaning of the term and you are using source that uses 19th century meaning to support your claim. It is clearly misleading. So, I can only agree with what Duja, and some other cool heads, propose. Regards. Momisan

Open your eyes and read the works you profess to love. "Is there anything worse than when someone wants to take your language and your history away from you and make it theirs?" So stop doing it. All the historical evidence points one way, but you look the other way. As for "Serbian cultural repression", let's take a look. Đilas, Miloševič, Patriarch Varnava Rosić - Montenegrins who dominated Serbia. Half of Belgrade is of Montenegrin descent (myself included). Just open your eyes to the historical reality man, one Montenegrin to another :-) Ево и Његошеви стихови, па шта ћемо сад:
Име ми је вјерољуб,
презиме ми родољуб.
Црну Гору, родну груду
камен паше одасвуда.
Српски пишем и зборим,
сваком громко говорим:
народност ми србинска,
ум и душа славјанска.
--estavisti 08:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

C'mon, be serious. Where is your "bulshit level" template? This is way above my level 3! Momisan

---

I can't believe you two are fighting over some little-important things.

Let me point something out: the greater number of Bunjevci (and majority of Shokci) have attained/kept a Croatian national feeling. It would be heavily POV not to connect them to Croats. That's nothing like the Red (Greater) Croatian theory of how Montenegrins are all just "really" Orthodox Croats. In the same manner should we stabilize this - there is of no doubt that the majority of the Montenegrins, or at least the greatest bit are Serb by nationality (emigration is the only problem over 'ere), so we should keep from being one-sided in that way (note: this has nothing to do with the Greater-Serbian nationalist theory on how Macedonia's Slavs are just "Really" (no, really!) "Serbs"). It doesn't matter that nowadays there are plenty of Montenegrin fierce nationalists (Milo, Jevrem,... though most of 'em, ironically, were hard-line Serb nationalists a while ago....) that share even an anti-Serbian POV, to an extent "Serbophobia", but try to remember the image some of those Bunyevs in Vojvodina have and just how they feel about Croatians (widely expressed even through their official websites, etc.). --PaxEquilibrium 11:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)