Talk:Miss Major Griffin-Gracy

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Additional references

Here are some additional references that can further supplement this bio:

• This interview with Miss Major on her experience in Chicago in 1998.
• This webjournal article, which is very substantial and details a lot on Miss Major's work and history. This can be used to create sections on her activism work in NYC, San Diego, and San Fran.
• Information about this in-progress documentary may be added, though because it is not yet finalized, it's probably best to just discuss that it's being worked on at the moment rather than go into detail about it.
• Transfeminist Perspectives in and beyond Transgender and Gender Studies, a book with a little detail, and importantly the claim that Miss Major was not well-recognized because of marginalization.

User:I JethroBT

Awesome picture, added it to sf pride and elsewhere. i probably wont improve on article, though, sorry to say i have too many other tasks at hand.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Non-neutral description of facts

It is not neutral to say that she came out as transgendered, and then say that she was "unaware" she was questioning the gender she was assigned at birth. It's attempting to rewrite history. Worse than that, it does not even make sense - it's a contradiction. Either she came out as homosexual, or she came out as transgendered - it can't be both. I note that the same source is used for both statements! If the source (which I am not going to buy) contradicts itself, it is by definition unreliable.--greenrd (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The source reads:

"'Miss Major' came out as trans as a teenager in the late 1950s in Chicago. In this 1998 interview, she describes the African-American drag ball subculture of her youth:

...We didn't know at this time we were questioning our gender. We just knew that it felt right. There wasn't all this terminology, all this labeling— you know what I mean?

I don't understand where homosexuality comes into play here. That said, I think you're right that we can rephrase that section to indicate that there was some (unspecified) time prior to the late 1950s where the questioning happened, and that she came out in the late 1950s as the interview indicates. I'll make some revisions now. You also don't need to buy the book, you can check it on Google Books. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

What I'm suggesting is that, when in the 1950s she was a teenager, as she says, they didn't have those labels. She merely went out in drag. She didn't "come out as transgendered" or know what that meant. That's an anachronism. I'm not questioning her gender identity, I'm just questioning how she can have come out as something she didn't even know existed.--greenrd (talk) 19:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Right, so a couple of things. It's not clear to me that her coming out as trans and her quote about drag balls / there not being a lot of terminology are referring to the same period of time in Chicago. Second, there was some terminology about the trans identity in the 1950s (see [1], [2]). I don't think it is correct to interpret her quote should be interpreted to say that there was no terminology available at the time, just that in comparison to the state of gender identity language in 1998, it was more limited. So, it's plausible. That said, it is pretty clear from the literature that these terms did not see wide use until the 1980s (e.g. p.4 of this book reads, The word "transgender" itself, which seems to have been coined in then 1980s, took on its current meaning in 1992...) I think the best solution then, seeing as I can't find any other sources about this time in Miss Major's life is to just say "she came out" when she did according to the Stryker source, so I'll implement that now. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 02:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Reliability of sources

Every article on Wikipedia bases all information on this individual on what she herself has reported, but there is evidence that she is an unreliable source to begin with. There is absolutely no evidence that she participated in the Stonewall riots, other than her own claims. I can't find any reference to her participation in any publication prior to the past 10 years or so, and in the publications I have found her in, it's all based on self-report. 174.73.16.16 (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2016 (UTC)Convergingnow (talk) 05:31, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

References

I found an archived version of the source linked above: Stern, Jessica (Fall 2011 – Spring 2012). "This is What Pride Looks Like: Miss Major and the Violence, Poverty, and Incarceration of Low-Income Transgender Women". Scholar and Feminist Online (10.1–10.2). Barnard College.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date format (link) This source does not appear to support the claim above that Griffin-Gracy "is an unreliable source to begin with." It also does not include information about her based entirely "on what she herself has reported." There is a discussion on this Talk page below about how to present what she is known for in a wide variety of sources; I have added a variety of secondary sources to the article recently, including an open-access book edited by the New York Public Library: New York City Trans Oral History Project; Lewis, Abram J. (2019). "Miss Major Griffin-Gracy". In New York Public Library; Baumann, Jason (eds.). The Stonewall Reader. New York: Penguin Books. pp. 208–215. ISBN 9780143133513. Her chapter is introduced with a paragraph that begins, "Activist Miss Major Griffin-Gracy participated in the Stonewall uprising..." Beccaynr (talk) 13:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, Majors was never at the Stonewall demonstrations, neither were Malcom/Marsha, nor Sylvia. These people all lied and claimed they were there, arrested at the demonstrations, and in reality they never were. Majors, Sylvia, and Malcolm/Marsha were never even regular customers at the Stonewall bar, it was not for drag queens, female impersonators, and men wearing women's clothing were not allowed inside. Talk to any Stonewall veteran who was actually really there, including Fred Sargeant who was there all multiple nights and who documented a lot of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.34.234.175 (talk) 20:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Transfeminist

The article says she identifies as a feminist, but transfeminism is a specific school of thought, not just any trans woman who identifies as a feminist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.65.213.200 (talk) 17:24, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Confusion over Dates

This article says she was present at the 1973 Pride rally where Sylvia Rivera was booed off stage -- but it also states she spent five years at Dannemora and was released in 1974. How was she at a Pride rally while she was in prison? Can we have some clarification of this? 2600:8805:9100:547:8DE3:F524:FE8A:CD9E (talk) 18:18, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

See Talk:Stonewall_riots/Archive_11#"Miss_Major"_Griffin-Gracy. Whether she was really there seems disputed, though there are Wikipedians very keen to state that she was. 2A00:23C5:FE0C:2100:38E1:4D6B:A11B:6D56 (talk) 03:11, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Unless some third-party sources have emerged, all her claims of being at Stonewall come only from her, as well. Unless someone has a source, we can't use Wikipedia's voice to state this, and need to change the wording to saying she says she was there, etc. It's been several years since she first made these new claims, and now waiting on sources. I think we've been very patient and now we have to clean this up. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I added the sources, including from the recent Guardian article, and I have been working to remove what from my view, are somewhat astounding BLP violations in this article. Beccaynr (talk) 18:36, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian interview has the same problems as the others we've ruled out. No improvement. This does not merit any changes and certainly not your edit-warring. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:19, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

This is how this section currently reads:

She had a five-year sentence at Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora for a burglary conviction where she met Frank "Big Black" Smith who had participated in the Attica Correctional Facility riots of 1971. The two of them communicated regularly during her time there. She says he showed her great respect despite her gender identity, and that he talked her through the information that she needed to really help her community—to fix a problem rather than mask it. She was released from Dannemora in 1974

I know her story was initially that she was Big Black's roommate in prison. Then it changed to they were corresponding. But weren't prison regulations that you couldn't send correspondence between prisons? Make it make sense. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I have revised the article, which had included multiple sources that did not support any text, and text that was not supported by any sources. And please cite sources to support what she may have previously said, or later said. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 02:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Recent changes

@Beccaynr: Please read the talk page here and engage. There are credibility issues. We can't just use Wikipedia's voice to repeat this BLP's claims, no matter how much we might like to. Per Kohler, let me take another look, but I think the general sense was to make an exception to WP:BLOG based on contributors and expertise. Let me check. Don't just revert; discuss. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:37, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the Kohler link is important because he has a screenshot of MMGG's statement about Marsha and Sylvia. This is, pun acknowledged, major. It goes to the heart of this subject's credibility for her to say one of the people witnesses agree was prominent in the uprising wasn't there (Marsha Johnson). - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:42, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

As I noted below, this purported screenshot is directly contradicted by a reliable source, and it does not support the text that has been repeatedly restored. Please stop adding the disputed content that has been removed as unsourced and poorly-sourced - this appears to be a serious WP:BLP violation. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 19:41, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I am invoking WP:BLP after reviewing the sources that do not support the text I removed. And as noted in the section above, I added sources as requested above for the widely-reported claim that she was present during the Stonewall riot; most recently, The Guardian reported this, along with stating that she was jailed, which appears to add further support. Please also note there is at least one source that directly contradicts the unsourced and poorly-sourced text I have removed according the WP:BLP policy (her statement to The Advocate). Beccaynr (talk) 18:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the Guardian interviewer did not do due diligence. No one has ever found evidence of MMGG being arrested at Stonewall. Very few people were arrested. All their names and descriptions are known and MMGG fits none of them. MMGG will not give any other names she's gone by, which makes the other prison claims hard to check, but even just going on descriptions, and the fact her stories about Attica and Dannemora have changed, this piece is just as full of errors as the others. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:50, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I am posting what I said on your usertalk here, as well, as you cited WP:ONUS in your edit summary and it simply does not apply here. Who is disputing the content you keep removing[3],[4],[5],[6] besides you? You are removing stable content against consensus. There wasn't much engagement on talk, but over the years on MMGG and Stonewall talk, there has been agreement that every single source came back to a self-claim by MMGG. Not a single source that has interviewed the known and documented veterans of the rebellion has ever mentioned MMGG. When MMGG showed up in recent years, she not only made extraordinary claims with zero supporting evidence or witnesses, but all investigations showed her version of events simply did not hold up. I know it's disappointing for those new to all of this who like her, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia can print these things. We have to evaluate sources based on the entire field of reporting, not just interviews by people who don't know the field and didn't do due diligence. You are clearly trying to protect this BLP's reputation. But the problem is, what do we do when the BLP was not truthful? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:54, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I just replied on my user Talk page, so reposting here: I think we are talking about two separate issues:

1) I am trying to review available sources, and when I did, I did not find support for the paragraph of text that I removed [7], [8], [9], [10]. And this was in the midst of reviewing a variety of sources, including some that appear to directly conflict with the assertions made in the paragraph of text that was removed, including a source I noted on the article Talk page (e.g. her statement to The Advocate). From my view, this is an application of WP:BLP policy, which requires removal of unsourced and poorly-sourced contentious claims about a living person.

2) It also seems clear that she is widely-reported to be a 'Stonewall veteran', so I also have some concerns about what may seem like original research-style attempts to characterize her as lacking credibility, instead of applying NPOV policy to the sources that are available. However, I did review the article Talk page, and felt the recent Guardian source helped resolve the concern about a need for sources related to her presence there; you have disputed this, but I am optimistic that we can develop a way to present the available reliable sources in a way that reflects core content policies, although I think this discussion will be best continued at the article Talk page. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:14, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

You didn't find a source for her claim that Marsha P. Johnson wasn't at the Stonewall Rebellion? You didn't see the screenshot Bob Kohler posted? Or you want to pretend the source doesn't exist because you deleted it?

You need to go deeper. Every. Single. Report. Comes back to her statements. Every single one. I don't know when you started following this or how old you are, but those of us who were alive during Stonewall, who have known the Veterans group in all the decades since and know the veterans (and knew ones who are no longer with us).... she's not one. Yes, this is OR. But we know who was there and who wasn't. You're being fooled. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:18, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it is helpful for us to have parallel conversations at my user Talk page and here, and I think it is best if we could focus on the article content here - so I am reposting: I did not find the Will Kohler screenshot to support the paragraph of text nor that she claimed Johnson wasn't at the Stonewall Rebellion - "I did not run into them that night" does not support stating in wikivoice that she claims Johnson wasn't there; especially when there appears to be at least one RS where she states, "Many who took part in the Stonewall Rebellion died way before their time, like my sisters Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson," explains Miss Major." (Advocate). Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:40, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

On Kohler, I have to agree with Beccaynr here. There is a world of difference between someone saying "Johnson wasn't at riot", and what the screenshot of Griffin-gracy states "I did not run into them that night." The former is definitive, Johnson was not there. The later is not, as it only states that Johnson and Griffin-gracy did not encounter each other on the night, and still leaves it open for Johnson to have been present. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:59, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

• To clarify my reference to WP:ONUS, I should have referred what that section points to - WP:BURDEN, or more specifically WP:BLPRESTORE. I responded quickly to repeated restoration of what seems to be a WP:BLP violation, and I was trying to emphasize the need and process for keeping unsourced and poorly-sourced contentious negative claims about a living person out of the article. I think it would be a good idea for us to slow down and methodically address the distinct content issues, and maybe we can open up separate Talk sections to address each one. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 22:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  None of this changes the fact that MMGG is the only person who reports MMGG being there. All the recent coverage and is based on recent interviews and self-claims, and her support looks to me to be wholly from those who weren't alive during the eras when Stonewall happened and when lots more Stonewall vets were still around. None of the people who were actually there have ever reported MMGG being there. She didn't come forward to claim she knew Marsha and Sylvia until both were dead. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  If there were a reliable source making that analysis, I'd say we should include it, or at least hedge as to whether she attended Stonewall. But the WP:BLOG is, IMO, pretty plainly not a reliable source—not just for the fact that it's a blog but because it facially unacceptably "paraphrases" the screen shot it's based on. ("I did not run into them that night" is not the same thing as "they were not there", and you cannot describe it as such just because "the Stonewall Inn ... was not a large bar". I mean that's really bad.) And there's no other source.

  The Guardian, Huck, Them, and PinkNews all say she was at Stonewall. Now, maybe that's just because she told them that and it slipped past their fact checking teams (or, in the case of this The New York Historical Society educational resource, maybe it was just relying on a source that was just relying on her say-so). But, notably, these sources don't just say "MMGG says she was at Stonewall"—each of the ones I linked says it definitively, in their own voices. So it seems to be an assumption that they're only relying on her say so.

  Regardless, I'm generally very skeptical that OR as to source accuracy should be a legitimate basis for exclusion of content from an article. (I've thought about that subject quite a bit, such that I even recently started a little essay on it.) I won't got to all the reasons for that here, but, in general, I think we're on much safer ground reflecting reliable sources, with the faith and knowledge that, in the vast majority of cases, reliable sources will eventually get something right.--Jerome Frank Disciple 00:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  That is an interesting little essay - and before I read your comment, I started a section below to discuss potential options for developing content, including with sources that have been published after the release of her memoir. For now, I think we may be on the strongest ground if memoir-related sources are used to support content about what she describes in her memoir. We could use those sources to create a memoir section in the article for content based on what is being reported as highlights from the memoir, as well as secondary content from reviews. Beccaynr (talk) 01:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for the heads up! And apologies for throwing in my two cents during a lull when you were planning a proposal. Will respond there.--Jerome Frank Disciple 01:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Stonewall rebellion content

On 23 June 2023, The Guardian published "'Get off our backs and let us live': Miss Major is still fighting for trans rights after 50 years of resistance"., and mentioned this article, which I likely would have looked at anyway after reading the piece. One of the edits I made while generally reviewing/revising was:

She was inside the Stonewall Inn when the 1969 Stonewall Rebellion began in response to a raid by New York City police, and was jailed.

References

I read the Guardian content about her being jailed as an indication that fact-checking would have occurred, given general consensus about the caliber of this source. Also, The Advocate describes her as "Miss Major, a SAID organizer, executive director of the TGI Justice Project in Oakland, Calif., and a trans woman of color who was inside the Stonewall Inn the night the riots began", as if this is common knowledge - it is not a quote or otherwise attributed to what she has said. These sources have been disputed as insufficient to support the content, so here we are.

Other sources seem more clearly less careful about making summary statements based on what she said or wrote, e.g. Ware, Syrus Marcus (June 1, 2023). "Miss Major - legendary activist, elder and Stonewall veteran - tells her story". Xtra Magazine. quotes a Them piece for "Major fought the cops alongside ancestors Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson at the Stonewall Rebellion," while Them seems to be summarizing her memoir.

Maybe one way to address the Stonewall rebellion content issue is to broaden the scope of what we include, e.g. a version of 'in her memoir, she talks about her experience at Stonewall, including her sense of erasure afterwards' (perhaps with a brief quote to help support the erasure part) - this would more clearly attribute content to her, and relates to an advocacy issue for which she has received coverage (See also Bay Area Reporter, 2014). Beccaynr (talk) 00:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

While I do think we can, in Wikipedia's voice, say she was at Stonewall (since doing so would reflect the reliable sources, and the reliable sources themselves don't all say that they're summarizing her memoir or otherwise relying on her own words for the claim), I have no interest in being an ideologue; describing what's said in the memoir would work and is a clever compromise, given the objections that have been raised.--Jerome Frank Disciple 01:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

When I tried to (unsuccessfully) gain access to a book review at the WP Library, I instead found, from Peace Review in 2022:

Transgender African-Americans have made significant contributions to history of transgender rights in the United States. Such pioneers include Mary Jones, Lucy Hicks Anderson, Sir Lady Java, Miss Major Griffin-Gracy, and Marsha P. Johnson. They have fought for trans rights, experienced incarceration, assisted transgender persons, who are disproportionately incarcerated, and were prominent figures in the Stonewall uprising of 1969.

and from Women & Performance (a feminist theory journal) in 2018:

In “Cautious Living: Black Trans Women and the Politics of Documentation,” a conversation between journalist Toshio Meronek, Stonewall veteran Miss Major Griffin-Gracy, and trans activist CeCe McDonald, Major puts the "transgender tipping point" into succinct and unsettling perspective.

These types of sources seem to add support for Griffin-Gracy being generally known as part of the Stonewall rebellion. However, for now, an article section about the memoir could begin to build content, and then we could consider the weight and credibility of sources to support wikivoice statements about what she is known for. Beccaynr (talk) 02:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Just a note - Miss Major isn't a reliable narrator. When I was researching her before, I read many different interviews... and her story kept changing. For Stonewall - there are two parts: The raid, and then week long demonstrations afterwards. She has told a story (I don't have the reference handy) that she was at the bar, but "knocked out" and "arrested" and asserts people didn't see her because she was unconscious. But, there are no arrest records for her. I would keep the article "she states she was there".

However, historians researching it can't find any evidence she was there.

At the time I was researching this, everyone was claiming boldly she was part of the Attica Prison riots. But she couldn't have been - "cross dressers" were all sent to Clinton Correctional Facility at the time. I couldn't find any interview where she personally made that claim; but that didn't stop everyone from claiming it. (Edit for Examples: "survivor of Attica" [11],[12])(2nd Edit, this one out right says "Miss Major Griffin-Gracy became one of the key negotiators in the Attica Prison Riots in 1971" [13])

Just look at these two sources:

Miss Major ended up in prison in New York when she and a boyfriend got caught breaking into hotel safes (a “Bonnie-and-Clyde-style” operation, her book says), prompting a police chase that ended in a crash. [14]

Compared to this:

Miss Major was arrested for robbing one of her customers while working as a sex worker [15]

I don't think we'll ever really know the truth about her story or her life - the more you try to research it, the more contradictions you'll find.

Denaar (talk) 04:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, I don't want to detract from Beccaynr's proposal, but I think the question here isn't whether we Wikipedia's find her to be a reliable narrator: I think the question is "how is she covered in reliable sources?" I found 4 reliable sources saying she was at Stonewall—not as a quotation from her but as a definitive statement made in their own voice. Granted, each of the sources I found were in the context of an interview with MMGG or related to her memoir, but Beccanyr, as their post above details, found at least one source that made the claim which was not based on an interview. Conversely, we have not found reliable sources casting doubt on the claim.

But, again, I think Beccanyr's proposal handles any debate: by attributing the claim to MMGG, we avoid stating it in Wikipedia's voice, while accurately noting a subject (putative or not) that has garnered attention in reliable sources.--Jerome Frank Disciple 10:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this approach with any contentious material. The thing is - it is contentious, she only evidence is she says she was there. Some people trust that and report "she was there". I think it's fine to have that in the article, but attributing it is a neutral way of handling the situation and acknowledging the controversy surrounding it.

To the user below: The Attica Prison Riot of 1971 was a violent riot, she couldn't have negotiated with the police during the Riot or survived the riot if she wasn't there. I think she said in interviews she was inspired by it, and people misheard her and started reporting she was there - I've never found an interview where she claims she was there. But for a while, it was widely reported.

If she was released from jail in 1974, and had been in jail 5 years... that means she was in jail when the Stonewall riot broke out. No one can really ever know - the records were destroyed both at Attica and Clinton Correctional Facility. It would take someone really good at old fashioned Original Research to track down details and no one cares enough to go looking.

The thing is, if you say "she WAS AT STONEWALL" then you're going to have fights until the end of time debating if she was there - that's the very definition of contentious material. That's why sourcing it does well.

I'd encourage you to read this bit in visual kei about "is it a genre or not" as a great example of a neutral third party providing a compromise over the debate - it lists "many sources call is a genre (with sources)" but others don't (more sources) and a specific explanation from someone.

The thought was, "if the sources don't agree - represent that in the article" and I still stand by that method today.

Denaar (talk) 15:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

"if the sources don't agree - represent that in the article" ... wait, am I missing something? What reliable sources don't agree specifically as to her participation in Stonewall?--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Various sources discuss her recollection of knowing someone who was involved in the 1971 Attica Prison Riot and considering them a mentor (e.g. Guardian "After Stonewall, Miss Major ended up in prison in New York [...] In solitary confinement, her neighbor was Frank “Big Black” Smith, an activist who’d led the Attica prison rebellion in 1971 and became a mentor") - one comedian's podcast summary saying she participated does not seem to me to be the type of source that is appropriate to include as balance, nor supportive on its own of an assertion that this statement was widely-reported. And my suggested path forward is to stick to the reliable sources and develop content about e.g. her notable memoir, notable books where her interviews have been included, her notable history as an activist and organizer, etc, because this is what the available independent, reliable, and secondary sources appear to be focusing on. Beccaynr (talk) 16:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I also think it is helpful to focus on how we are developing a tertiary source based on reliable sources according to NPOV policy, subject to related core content policies. To address sources offered by Denaar above, the Astraea Foundation referring to her as a "survivor of Attica State Prison" [16] appears to refer to being incarcerated, not the riot; the next link is to a blog that uses the same "survivor of Attica State Prison" phrase; the third link is to a comedian's podcast [17] referring to her as "one of the key negotiators in the Attica Prison Riots in 1971" in its promotional summary. And the two sources suggested above as contradictory statements as to background on one of her arrests don't read that way to me - one is more detailed, but one organization's simplistic summary [18] and a generally reliable news source reporting her recollection does not necessarily seem inconsistent. In any event, we do not appear to have an independent, reliable, secondary sources synthesizing an evaluation of her experience and concluding with a dismissal and exclusion of her, such as historians, etc., and I think we should be careful about making such assertions without reliable secondary sources, because BLP policy also applies to article Talk pages.

In my research, I am finding sources such as: RECLAIMING STONEWALL. By: McCarthy, Timothy Patrick, Hyde, Sue, Moore, Darnell L., Duberman, Martin, Robinson, Rashad, Vaid, Urvashi, Gaines, Ameer, Tran, Chrysanthemum, Nation, 00278378, 7/15/2019, Vol. 309, Issue 1 - via Academic Search Complete

We may never know exactly what happened at Stonewall. Despite admirable efforts to get the basics right, eyewitness accounts and historical interpretations differ widely. Over the last 50 years, people have debated nearly every aspect of Stonewall: What caused it? Why did it happen then and there? How did it unfold? Who was (and wasn't) there? How many people participated? How many people were arrested? Who threw the first punch or brick or Molotov cocktail?

and The Stonewall Generation: LGBTQ Elders on Sex, Activism & Aging. By: Cart, Michael, Booklist, 00067385, 8/1/2020, Vol. 116, Issue 22 - via Academic Search Complete

Sex researcher Fleishman interviews nine Elders, as she calls them, whose lives intersect the Stonewall riots of June 28, 1969. Several of her interviewees were actually there on that fateful night; [...] Miss Major Griffin-Gracy, a trans woman now 79 and a participant in the riots, remembers, [...] Given the paucity of research in this area, Fleishman's book is a valuable addition to the literature.

and THE STONEWALL GENERATION: LGBTQ Elders on Sex, Activism, and Aging. Kirkus Reviews, 19487428, 7/1/2020, Vol. 88, Issue 13 - via Academic Search Complete

Perhaps the most outspoken interviewee is transgender rights advocate Miss Major Griffin-Gracy, one of the few remaining survivors of the uprising and a major influence who has served as a "mother and grandmother figure to countless trans and nonbinary people around the world."

and THE STONEWALL READER. By: R. A. H., AudioFile, 10630244, Aug/Sep2019, Vol. 28, Issue 2

Even more striking are the interviews featuring the real voices of notable figures such as Sylvia Rivera and Miss Major Griffin-Gracy, who memorably declares that "history is one big lie."

there appears to be a lot of sources... over at ProQuest, sources include: Read an Excerpt from 'The Right Side of History: 100 Years or LGBTQI Activism': Miss Major Griffin-Gracy's Reflections on the Stonewall Riots, Lambda Literary Review, 2015 ProQuest 1698635202, which includes:

So I turned back and spit in the face of that cop, and he knocked me out, and that's all I remember. I woke up in the Tombs. At the jail they kept us all together. I woke up when it was getting light.

Anyway, before I continue my research, I would like to note that my focus is on making revisions to the article that reflect independent, reliable, and secondary sources - e.g. she is known for xyz, she co-wrote a notable memoir, her interviews were published in notable works xyz, etc. Beccaynr (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Beccaynr you're awesome—killing it on the research front.--Jerome Frank Disciple 14:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

This is sourced on the article, but the link is gone, the archive listed doesn't let you see pages 2, 3, etc... while this is soley based on an interview and not research to validate the information, it contradicted a lot of the articles out there. But - it makes sense and it reasonable.

On page 2 - she talks about being arrested for prositution soemtimes, but she also talks about being arrested for safe breaking with her boyfriend leading to a 5 year prison sentence (that took place during the Attica riots, so she couldn't have been there).

[19]

I feel the "at Stonewall" thing is something everyone from New York claimed to be there, it's like Woodstock - everyone claimed to be there, but there is this weird thing where Stonewall has become the most well known bit of advocacy, but all the work leading up to it and following it is just hush-hush. Somehow, being there at a bar when it was raided was somehow more important then anything else people did to fight for their rights. It's certainly not what makes Miss Major notable - her advocacy later on is what was important counts.

Denaar (talk) 16:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The full text of the 2015 SFWeekly source is available as an archive link. This is another source stating During her years in Dannemora, Miss Major met Frank "Big Black" Smith and some of the other leaders of the prison riot at Attica, and notes a five-year sentence, releases on parole and returning to prison on violations. I'm not seeing contradictions with other available sources published by reputable outlets; reporting appears consistent in reputable sources about what she has said. And from my view, what makes her notable are the reliable sources finding her noteworthy, e.g. for her advocacy, her community building, and her sharing her experiences, similar to how others have - through interviews and a memoir, etc. Beccaynr (talk) 17:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It took me a bit to find a source for the Stonewall documents - they have been pulled twice by FOIA act.

Stormé DeLarverie was at the bar and has been cited over and over as the woman arrested who called out "Why don't you guys do something?" - but the only woman arrested that night was Marilyn Fowler. But the legend already exists, and Fowler was an outcast and generalized troublemaker, so she's not remembered. But if you google her name, you'll find these documents in more reliable sources like the New York Times, San Diego Tribune, etc.

This lists everyone in the documents, including everyone arrested:

https://outhistory.org/exhibits/show/stonewall-riot-police-reports/contents/named-peopled

If Miss Major had been arrested, there would be a report, and it might not be her real name. Most people just had their IDs checked and were let go.

But that's why there will always be disagreement with her being arrested that night, there is no police record of it.

I appreciate you working to improve the article and source it. I just agree that we can't outright say she was there in Wikipedia's voice.

Denaar (talk) 20:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It looks like we have secondary sources that could allow us to state in wikivoice that she is 'known as' a participant in the Stonewall rebellion - I think this seems different than saying 'she was there' in wikivoice, because multiple secondary sources 'know her' as someone who was there.

Also, I think WP:RSPRIMARY is relevant to consider with regard to trying to parse primary documents such as police reports: Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. The documents don't seem complete or definitive, and based on available sources, she would not have been jailed as a woman; the RSPRIMARY guideline also says, "secondary sources that present the same material are preferred." I cited a 2019 Nation source above noting how difficult it has been to discern the details of the Stonewall rebellion - so we have a secondary source making an evaluation. So I think the use of 'known as' language can reflect available secondary sources and core content policies. Beccaynr (talk) 00:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

No. As Denaar has explained, we have to keep her claims in her voice only. Because the timeline issues make clear she couldn't have been at Stonewall and at the other events on her CV. Too many contradictions, too many changes in her stories over the years. And she's a claimant who no witnesses or veterans confirm. When the facts don't line up, we can't rely on the lack of due diligence on the part of some writers as a loophole. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:14, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

But we have multiple independent, reliable, and secondary sources that 'know her' as a participant in the Stonewall Rebellion, so it appears that we can (and should), according to NPOV policy, figure out how to summarize these sources in wikivoice. I do not think that stating what she is known for is the same thing as stating in wikivoice that she was a participant; this may seem like a subtle distinction, but I think it can be phrased in a way that makes it clear the statement reflects the weight of the sources that refer to her as known for her participation. Beccaynr (talk) 17:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

She is only "known as" a claimant. Those that believe her are generally too young to have been at Stonewall, or too young to have hung out with Stonewall vets. Others are from the newer generation of "journalists" who don't do investigative journalism yet still manage to get published by what are usually considered RS sources on the 'pedia. They shouldn't have published without investigating and we shouldn't exploit that mistake. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Disagree here. Beccaynr found a variety of reliable sources saying the same thing. A couple Wikipedia users saying "I've done my own analysis, and the reliable sources are all wrong" isn't enough to warrant deviation.--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:46, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

True, Majors was not at the Stonewall demonstrations or a regular customer at the bar. This is not 'gossip' but it is fact. We only have her claim decades later that she was there, and she is like both Malcolm/Marsha and Sylvia who claimed to have been at the demonstrations and started them but in reality were not.100.34.234.175 (talk) 19:34, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

But whose analysis has turned up the timeline issues? Yours?--Jerome Frank Disciple 18:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

See the issues raised in the section above about communication between prisons as well as the timeline. Once again it goes to the reliability of the witness/narrator. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I do not think we need to assess the reliability of the witness to summarize what the wide range of available independent, reliable, and secondary sources consider her 'known for', particularly as no independent, reliable and secondary sources appear to have been produced that consider her to not be a credible reporter of her own experience. Also, I think it is appropriate to accurately describe the memoir contents as including a description of her experience at Stonewall - this removal [20] seems to make it sound as if she only discusses the event generally, when she not only discusses her experience there, but is also getting secondary coverage for her discussion. Beccaynr (talk) 19:08, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Beccaynr, stop reverting civil discussion. So what if the IP didn't provide a source. Some discussion of context and reliability of sources is acceptable on talk. You are being far too extreme and controlling here. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:58, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Ask anyone who was really at the Stonewall demonstrations and who is actually a Stonewall vet.100.34.234.175 (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Just so we're clear here: Has any user presented a reliable source that directly says MMGG was not at Stonewall? Or is it just original research / synth? If it's just the latter, given the fairly wide variety of reliable sources, I think that the OR should be discarded. I genuinely don't think "I've personally looked into the matter and she wasn't there; these reliable sources must have not done their due diligence" is enough in the face of the this volume of sources. If someone is confident enough in their research, they should go try to get it published in a reliable source.--Jerome Frank Disciple 19:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

People are allowed to present their opinions of the sources. Beccaynr is deleting comments from talk now. This is a problem. I don't recall if any of the discussion has been in sources that would be considered RS. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Length of sentence, why removing sourced text?

@Beccaynr:, why are you (twice now) blanking the sourced bit about length of sentence at Dannemora? It's relevant. It goes to timeline. I included the quote that sources it. Why are you blanking it? I also don't understand why you are removing the specifics about African-American history that is also sourced.[21][22]? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:54, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

As to the statements about parole - it is unclear in the sourcing which prison stints she's referring to. But she concludes with saying she eventually served her full sentence. There's no reason to leave out details like length of sentence or the history subjects she studied. Telling the truth is not "disparagement". She is open about surviving prison, and has given details in the sources. There's no reason for us to censor details that help provide context. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

CorbieVreccan, we are unfortunately once again having parallel conversations on my Talk page and the article Talk page despite my requests for you to discuss article content here. You are of course welcome discuss conduct issues with me at my Talk page, as I have extensively discussed my concerns about your conduct at my Talk page as well. For the purposes of the article content issue, I request that while the discussion of this issue is pending, that you self-revert your third addition of this disputed content so we can discuss whether and how to include it. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:32, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• As to the statement about the length of the sentence - I have removed what appears to be further original research characterizing this as 'incarceration', which appears unsupported by the source, and I do not think it should continued to be restored, including because this appears to be contentious content in this BLP. The article already states she discusses her experiences with prison and parole, and there does not appear to be any source that states she served a full 5-year sentence, or any source that confirms a five-year incarceration. I think we should take a conservative approach with the limited information available and be careful about incorporating partial content, particularly as it has been cited above as part of apparent original research to disparage the subject of the BLP by repeatedly referring to her as lacking credibility, without independent, reliable, secondary sources supporting this negative allegation. Beccaynr (talk) 22:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• As to the restoration of the summary content based on three sources, I restored the text that is a summary of three sources; a further quote from one source seems undue and restricting the broader content seems to not account for the multiple sources, which appear to cover more than 'African-American history.' Beccaynr (talk) 22:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  What is the problem with using the source that says she was "sentenced to five years"? Why not include African-American history and the political worldview quote along with more general statements? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  This is the source. Why on earth are you calling this OR?

  An overnight in the Tombs or a brief stretch at Sing Sing, where she knew exactly how to survive the psych exam ("We knew what to tell those doctors: 'Oh, I have to sit and pee and I always thought I was a woman' — just standard bullshit to get through it so it can end") were the costs of survival. But the safe-breaking jobs in upstate New York led to a five-year sentence at Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, known as "Little Siberia" for its remote location just 20 miles south of the Canadian border.

  During her years in Dannemora, Miss Major met Frank "Big Black" Smith and some of the other leaders of the prison riot at Attica, in northwestern New York. Big Black encouraged her to read books, learn about African-American history, and develop a political understanding of the world. She also spent considerable time in solitary confinement, because whenever conflict arose between male inmates and the trans women who were incarcerated alongside them, the women would be sent to the hole.

  Source: San Francisco Weekly. You clearly have some issue with this source as earlier you reverted my updating the link so it can be read. You reverted to a dead link. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  So unless you have a good reason to say that is incorrect, it supports saying "as a mentor, saying she met him when she was sentenced to five years at Clinton". Or "serving a five year sentence at Clinton". She uses the term "incarceration" even if you don't. But we can keep it simple. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

  I am not able to find where in the edit history that I may have inadvertantly removed an archive link, but I assure you it would not have been intentional, including because I routinely add archive links to citations. But to address the content issues, a mention of five-year sentence does not support adding "incarceration," particularly as there appears to be nothing in the source to support stating "five year incarceration" in the article, and the source discusses her experience with parole (which can be part of a sentence but is not incarceration).

  On this Talk page, you had previously cited content that was unsupported or poorly-supported by the sources [23] that had been in the article but had to be removed because of the lack of support from the sources, while I was trying to respond to what appeared to be multiple BLP policy violations; the lack of clarity from the source and the terminology used by the source, as well as the potential for misleading implications to be drawn from the vague terminology indicates to me that we should be conservative and not include content with unclear meaning that also happens to have been raised on this Talk page as part of the original research to disparage the credibility of the subject. The way this content has been referred to at the article Talk page seems to emphasize how potentially misleading and contentious it is.

  Please either find independent, reliable, and secondary sources that call her credibility into question, or stop cherry-picking vague parts of one source to support what you have previously referred to as OR about this subject. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 23:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• I reviewed sources again and restored "African-American history" and added content supported by various sources; I still disagree with adding a quote from one of the three sources, which are not her words, and seems vague. Beccaynr (talk) 00:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  SFWeekly [24] is the source on the article about her 5 year sentence - there used to be other plenty of other sources with the same story. But this was a huge part of her story - it's what inspired her to take on advocacy for transwomen in prison.

  An overnight in the Tombs or a brief stretch at Sing Sing, where she knew exactly how to survive the psych exam ("We knew what to tell those doctors: 'Oh, I have to sit and pee and I always thought I was a woman' — just standard bullshit to get through it so it can end") were the costs of survival. But the safe-breaking jobs in upstate New York led to a five-year sentence at Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, known as "Little Siberia" for its remote location just 20 miles south of the Canadian border.

  During her years in Dannemora, Miss Major met Frank "Big Black" Smith and some of the other leaders of the prison riot at Attica, in northwestern New York. Big Black encouraged her to read books, learn about African-American history, and develop a political understanding of the world. She also spent considerable time in solitary confinement, because whenever conflict arose between male inmates and the trans women who were incarcerated alongside them, the women would be sent to the hole.

  According to the same source, she was released from a 5 year prison sentence in 1974:

  Christopher was Miss Major's son, born in 1978 to her and a long-term girlfriend. Miss Major's release from Dannemora around 1974 had initiated a new phase in her life. She didn't want to go back to prison, and while she didn't stop doing sex work, she was much more careful about breaking the law. When Christopher was born, Miss Major decided that she could give him a better life in California.

  Here is a source from CNN: [25]

  But a year after Stonewall, Miss Major was arrested for robbery, landing her with a five-year prison sentence. Her time in incarceration directly impacted her advocacy for transgender and gender nonconforming people behind bars.

  They link here: [26]

  After Stonewall, Miss Major earned a five-year prison sentence for robbery. She was released on parole twice and twice sent back to prison—the first time for wearing makeup, and the second for entering a bar known for catering to “deviants.” While incarcerated at Clinton Correctional Facility in far upstate New York, Miss Major met Frank Smith, who had led prison riots at Attica. Frank encouraged her to educate herself about black history, and to strive to address the causes of racism, inequality, and transgender oppression.

  But of course, then you've got this article from the Bay Area Reporter, that used to also be on this page, [27] where says she saw "Sylvia went up to speak and they booed her offstage." Sylvia Rivera give a speech at Central Park, in 1973 where she was booed off stage. There are videos, easy to fact check that one. If she was arrested after Stonewall and imprisoned for 5 years, she couldn't have been there.

  The same article one also claims: "In September 1971, a four-day uprising in New York's Attica State Prison claimed the lives of 10 hostages and 29 inmates. Incarcerated there at the time for two felony convictions, Griffin-Gracy experienced the upheaval firsthand, as well as the inhumane living conditions and discriminatory treatment that served as precursors to the uprising."

  and "In 1978, Griffin-Gracy moved to San Diego".

  So you can see - her story shifts over time and doesn't quite add up.

  Of course, as I was trying to find these sources, I came across this preview for a 2017 dissertation that says ""the fabrication of Miss Major’s story (her arrest at Stonewall … Miss Major’s lack of credibility is enmeshed in decades of … I believe Miss Major has made it her duty to fill in the blanks." Unfortunately, that's not in the preview they provide - anyone have the ability to look this up?

  Stonewall: Riot, Rebellion, Activism and Identity an Oral History and Archival Exhibition on the Web.  State University of New York Empire State College ProQuest Dissertations Publishing,  2017. 10284225 [28] is:

  Denaar (talk) 03:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  It seems wrong to me to use this source (SF Weekly) for the article AND claim it's not a valid source at the same time. It's on the page as a source, right now - cited 17 times - but suddenly, it's not a reliable source? Denaar (talk) 03:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  Here are even more sources.

  This book review [29] says that in the book, it reports: "Miss Major also spent five years inside the Clinton Correctional Facility at Dannemora for a burglary conviction. It was there she met Frank “Big Black” Smith, a Black Panther who’d been one of the leaders of the Attica Prison Riot in 1971." I haven't read the book, but it seems she hasn't changed her story again, and is sticking with this one now.

  Here is another one - she lives in Arkansas now, this is a recent interview: [30]

  Her next major escapade — described by Meronek as a “Bonnie-and-Clyde style trip through the tiny towns that dot upstate New York” with a boyfriend who was good at cracking safes — landed her in the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York, for five years.

  She's not really ashamed of this - she owns up to it, it happened, but it's also what made her become an activist. It's that silver lining in the horrible things of life, it motivated her.

  Denaar (talk) 03:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  One of the issues I have been trying to raise is that a "sentence" is not the same as "incarcerated," and this is further demonstrated by how the SF Weekly source also discusses her recounting her experience on parole, which is part of a "sentence," but is not "incarceration." So being out on parole potentially gives her an opportunity to be somewhere other than prison during her sentence. And SF Weekly does not say she was released in 1974 - this appears to be based on her recalling being released "around 1974."

  With regard to a dissertation, per the WP:RS section on WP:SCHOLARSHIP, can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. [...] Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence. And I can see the first 7 pages of the thesis on ProQuest, and it is for an M.A. in Liberal Studies; these available pages do not appear to discuss Griffin-Gracy.

  So from my view, this is about working with sources that have described a "5-year sentence" along with releases on parole, and how summaries from Huck and the Arkansas Times do not seem to substantially clarify what is already limited information about when she was imprisoned, on parole, and ultimately released. I think the summary text could be expanded to 'She has discussed her experience spending years in prison as well as her experience on parole,' but I think we should be very conservative when working with vague sources. The harm to this BLP subject if we get this wrong seems substantial, and BLP policy says we need to get this article right. Beccaynr (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  "Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors."

  "If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight."

  WP:V

  The sources we have disagree a lot on this subject, with conflicting views. Trying to have the editors here change that or resolve it is original research - unfortunately, there is going to be conflicting information on the article because our sources all have conflicting information.

  Denaar (talk) 16:50, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

  I think edits I made since my previous comment here may have helped resolve this issue; I added the CNN source you noted above, because this is a green-lit reliable news source and the placement of the added text seems to help straightforwardly present the "sentence" and its approximate timing. From my view, sources such as Huck and Arkansas Times do not carry much weight compared to established news outlets such as CNN and The Guardian, particularly when we take WP:RSOPINION into account. We appear to have various sources reporting on the subject talking about her experiences, including 'years in prison' (I have also added an additional reference from The Guardian for this), as well as parole. So I think this is how we can resolve this - as a tertiary source, we summarize the reliable sources, which report on Griffin-Gracy and her discussions of her experiences, including e.g. in prison and on parole. Beccaynr (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2023 (UTC)