Talk:Missa brevis in B-flat

Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Edge3 (talk) 23:04, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

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Interior of St. Maria, Landau

• ... that the Missa brevis in B by Christopher Tambling for mixed choir, trumpets, trombones, tubular bells and organ, was first performed in 2014 at St. Maria in Landau (pictured) by around 1,400 singers? Source: several
  • Reviewed: White Antelope (Cheyenne chief)
  • Comment: I suggest this for Pentecost, 28 May and the following day in some countries. While not particularly intended for that day, it was chosen for it - as the article says - at two cathedrals ;) - There will be at least a stub article about the church by the time it appears, perhaps even a double nom.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 08:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Missa brevis in B (Tambling); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Not a review but I think adding "written" before "by Christopher..." would make the hook sound better:

ALT1 ... that the Missa brevis in B, written by Christopher Tambling for mixed choir, trumpets, trombones, tubular bells and organ, was first performed in 2014 at St. Maria in Landau (pictured) by around 1,400 singers?

Also, St. Maria (Landau) yields a red link, so I un-linked it in this alternate hook.

Thank you for the clarity, - I tried to be short. Did you see my comment about the church? I'll add the link when created, possibly tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:03, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah my bad! I misread the comment. Thanks for letting me know and thanks for creating these articles. --TheLonelyPather (talk) 00:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• New enough, long enough, neutral, not copyvio, image is appropriately licensed and looks ok at the size. QPQ done. The hook is interesting (1400 singers? Was there any space for an audience left??) but isn't cited appropriately in the article. The Telegraph article cited earlier confirms the 1400, but only has "Tambling’s masses for large choirs were especially popular in Germany, where the premiere of his Missa Brevis was performed by 1,400 singers in Landau, near Karlsruhe, in September last year." which doesn't have either St. Maria or the instruments used. Could you double check and add appropriate inline citations to the sentence corresponding to the hook in the article? —Kusma (talk) 09:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Quick reply: there was no audience, it was a gathering of church musicians who all sang. It was the premiere so all instruments will have been used, but if that needs a ref, we can word it differently. - There is no other space in Landau to hold the masses (pun intended), but if that needs a ref we can say Landau and leave the church for a separate DYK (once expanded). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I have the church here. Neither of the hooks says that the tubular bells were used in the premiere, so that bit is fine. However, your source for the instruments is a dead link, so you'll need something else. Can you add working references to "The work, the Missa brevis in B, was first performed at the meeting of church musicians from all over the diocese on 28 September 2014 at St. Maria in Landau by around 1,400 singers." and to "the largest is a four-part choir SATB with parts for two trumpets and two trombones, tubular bells and organ"? —Kusma (talk) 09:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Without having seen the questions, I found both a preview and a review of the premiere. The preview says that 1,400 singers signed up, the review says 1,300. The figure 1,400 made it to obituaries (Telegraph, Diapason), so I think we can use it. Refs call the church Marienkirche, which I will add when expanding. - Will work on your questions next. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The link https://gemeinden.erzbistum-koeln.de/stifts-chor-bonn/service/komponisten/Tambling.html shows now as not secure, so I think we better do without it, and http://gemeinden.erzbistum-koeln.de/stifts-chor-bonn/service/komponisten/Tambling.html (same, just http without s) as 404 error, - it used to work properly before (in articles about other masses by Tambling); I guess we have to do without. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The sources you added are fine and confirm the hook. —Kusma (talk) 11:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll work on the church and see if good for a double nom, but probably not today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The church is now ready to be checked for DYK, but please don't hold up the process - better not bold. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The church article is fine to be used for this DYK, but if you want to bold it in the hook, you will need to supply an additional QPQ. —Kusma (talk) 11:18, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for reminding me, - I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Carlyle. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick action! This is fine as a double hook now; I hope you will get the correct credits after I added to the invisible comment above. —Kusma (talk) 13:33, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Article title

The composition was published as Missa brevis in B. Compare - by the composer - Messe in G (Tambling). No Dur/Moll or major/minor, possibly to keep it more internationally. We can't help that the German B is the English B-flat, but I see no reason to have B-flat in the article title which ought to be the common name. This work was printed in Germany and is popular in Germany, and B-flat doesn't belong in its common name, when not a single source calls it that. I still believe that the disambiguation (Tambling) would make sense (vs. others in the same key, Missa brevis in B-flat major, K. 275, Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo, Mass No. 3 (Schubert), and works by Fasch and Limmer with no article yet) but won't fight that. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:51, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Gerda, sorry if I misunderstood you. You did not comment in the discussion but thanked me for my edit where I suggested to move to the title with B flat, and so I understood that you agreed with me, so I followed through the next morning. At least two of the three English-language sources in the article use "Missa brevis in B flat", [1] [2], so that seems to be the common name in English. In French, it has been translated as well: Missa brevis in B si bémolle majeur. —Kusma (talk) 09:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, - I missed that even the publisher translates it, sorry for not having looked that far. Ignore me then, but please fix lead and links. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:23, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I've moved it back to "B-flat". I had already changed the lead and infobox to conform to this title, so I think it should work out now. —Kusma (talk) 09:00, 30 June 2023 (UTC)